Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin and I am the one who was
Brent: Well, listen, one, who was, how many e's did you just put into that? Welcome.
Jeff: 47. Doesn't, we haven't started the game yet, so I can do it.
Brent: Oh, you get like 47 Trekkie credit points just for saying that. That's awesome. Uh, and I'm Brent Allen, folks. I am the one who will be,
Jeff: And we are watching Babylon five for the first time for you. The one who is.
Brent: that's right. As you may have gathered at this point, if you are, if you're in the know and you catch it, uh, Jeff and I are actually two very old school Trekkies who somehow missed this phenomenal great show in its original air run back in the nineties, and we missed it in the two thousands and we missed it in the 2000 tens.
So here in the 2000 twenties, we're finally catching up with it, going through it for the very first time. Somehow have managed to stay completely unspoiled. Um, And we are here. But what we decided to do, because we, we are old school Star Trek fans. We do what for Babylon five. What we did for Star Trek, which is overanalyze it.
Look for the messages, the morals, the meanings, what mirrors does, what is Babylon five trying to say to us in its own unique way,
Jeff: And just to be clear, this is not a podcast about Star Trek, Brett and I just happen to be veteran Star Trek podcast rs. But because we are that there's a really strong chance that we are gonna let those references to Star Trek slip into our conversation.
Brent: we already have.
Jeff: Whatcha talking about the game is about to start.
It hasn't
Brent: Jeff, we weren't even 47 seconds into the show and you dropped.
Jeff: You are gonna ride that pony as long as you can. Well done. But to keep those reference,
Brent: I'm sorry. For those who don't know, 47 is a big time reference to Star Trek. Uh, it's a deep cut though, but,
Jeff: it was actually a documentary about it. I think it was on, uh, in the States. It was on Netflix a while ago.
Brent: They put a full documentary about that. It was an Inside 47 was an inside joke. Uh, they, the producers back in the next generation just started writing the word 47 into the script as often as they could swing it.
Jeff: there, there's a couple properties. Fringe is one. Took it to the next level. Like they went. Yeah, they, there's, and I learned this by watching the documentary. There's a couple others that have, they, they've slipped it into a lot of places. It's pretty cool. But to keep us from doing exactly what we just.
Did, uh, we, we play a game called The Rule of Three. In this game, now that we're starting, it limits us to no more than three references to Star Trek per episode. That's it. Three. One of those trade, no substitutions. Exchanges are refund.
Brent: So to be clear, it starts right now. So any references up to this point haven't counted.
Jeff: have not counted,
Brent: So from this point forward, when we do make a Star Trek reference from this point forward, when you do make a Star Trek reference, we are going to hear this sound.
Jeff: which is everyone's favorite sound.
Brent: I, I'm completely lost in the notes. Hold on just a sec. Oh, there. It's okay. I got it. I got
Jeff: Welcome to the channel everybody.
Brent: I've only done this 19 times so far.
Jeff: I.
Brent: All right, here we go. Uh, let's hear. We're gonna hear that sound. Don't do it again. Yes. And hopefully that will keep us from slipping in those references too many times. Now, along with the rule of three, there's another game we like to play at the end of the show where we try to guess what next week's episode is gonna be about based on title alone. That is the only thing we look at is the title.
While this is the spot where there's a whole new game that we like to play, although it's not new, we've literally been doing it since the second episode, uh, where we look back at last week and try to decide how close we were. We call this game.
Jeff: Time to Piper.
Brent: So Jeff, this week we're watching Wheel of Fire. What did you say this episode was gonna be about?
Let's decide how close you were. I.
Jeff: I thought we were gonna wrap up people's stories. This was gonna be kind of a lull in the story. As we get ready to pick up the end of the season, we were gonna find out, look, we already know Franklin is heading off to do the, the doctor's job on Earth. That Garibaldis gonna end up going to Mars. So this is where we're gonna figure out what's happening with, uh, with, uh, Lockley and Zach and everybody else.
Is Corwin gonna finally become XO or whatever? But we're gonna kind of get those post series stories, uh, for everybody else, this was ultimately gonna be the calm before this storm that'll close out the season in the series.
Brent: I am gonna give you points for lull and calm in the storm
Jeff: Let's to say that even that's pretty generous.
Brent: th I think, but I think that's very much what this episode was. And, and I'll discuss that more in my opening thoughts. Um, I'm not saying that it's any less important than previous episodes up till now. I. Or that this episode is out of place.
But like I said, I'll talk, I'll talk about the, but I'm gonna give you points for that. Um, it is, it is not giving us post-show wraps up, but it is wrapping up a loose thread that has been dangling out there. Actually, a couple of loose threads is kind of starting to pull 'em together. So Jeff, I'm gonna give you, uh, let's say 20% on this one.
Jeff: Sweet. What did you guess?
Brent: Uh, I had no idea.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: I, I mean, uh, you know, where do we go after fall of Sari Prime? Um, it, it really is just the idea of like, what loose threads do we have left going out? And ultimately where I came down to was Wheel of Fire, reminded me of a circus term about a big dangerous stunt. And I thought Sheridan was gonna have to pull off some big dangerous stunt in order to get the Alliance back together.
And yeah, that's, that's a donut man.
Jeff: Big, big goose egg on that one. But it is interesting how like this show now to this point has really had three series finales in Rising Star deconstruction of Falling Stars and the Fall of Sari Prime. Any one of those could close the series.
Brent: Right. And there's still that one episode that they made last year that they pushed to this year, so,
Jeff: we're gonna end up with four of these bad boys.
Brent: Hmm. Hmm. Well, Jeff, uh, for those of the, Jeff, for those out there who are kind of scratching the heads going, wait, we have fire. Which one was that one? Exactly. They didn't watch this one first before coming into this, which if you didn't, don't worry folks.
Jeff has you, he's gonna remind you of what Wheel of Fire actually was all about.
Jeff: So many of you know that I've got a pretty awesome government job where I basically sit in meetings all day. That's what I do. I sit in meetings constantly. My favorite kinds of meetings that I ever have are the ones that turn into an almost intervention, like, Hey, everybody, look at Garibaldi, look at him.
He didn't do his work. He didn't do it well at all. So how about all of you leave, and I'm gonna make him stand around and wait for a very uncomfortable amount of time before I address the elephant in the room and the monkey on his back. That's exactly how it goes down. And when Sheridan is calling him out for his behavior here recently, he hits him with the parenting secret weapon.
He says, I'm not angry, Michael. I am disappointed.
Brent: Oh no, not that anything, but that.
Jeff: He suspends Garibaldi until he deals with this problem however long that might take. And from here we get an interaction with Captain Lockley telling Garibaldi that she understands what he's going through and she wants to help, even if it's just telling him that she understands Garibaldi was otherwise disposed with his own, um, experience during the day of the dead.
So he didn't get to watch the part that we did when we learned about Lock Lee's experience with anything that she could drink, shoot, or smoke. I. She does more than just connect with him. She makes a call on his behalf in his name to Lisa Hampton. Edgar, not Hampton, not Hampton. Edgars Garibaldi that gets totally, absolutely confirmed here, but gets her to come out and help out.
She came because of three words in the message that was sent. I Need you. They talk. He agrees to work to sober up for real this time, at least it seems. And they remind each other that they were gonna get married. He agrees to leave his job with the Alliance and return to Mars with her. He'll be co-owner of Edgar's Industries with her and might help her get to the bottom of some stuff that that company's doing that she just really can't wrap her mind around.
And that was almost the entire episode. There was this other kinda little tiny thing that happened. I mean, apparently. Telepaths blips very well-funded blips are still attacking Cycore facilities and tagging the wreckage with Brenton. My favorite call to arms. Remember Byron Earth orders Lockley 'cause.
Remember, Lockley is earth force, so they order her to have Lita arrested for suspicion of running terrorist activities, and Zach seems pretty willing to jump in and help out. As you can imagine, things do not go well now. She turns the entire bar into puppets as they ominously drum their fingers and eventually surround Lockley insecurity.
Lita knows that she's a badass though, and she is not even pausing for this mundane bs. She says that she was touched by an angel. Then all the Catholics kind of cringe and freak out a little bit. So she corrects herself and says that she was touched by a voir lawn and isn't afraid to ca
Brent: I am sorry Jeff. Touched by an angel and the Catholic cringe.
Jeff: yeah,
Brent: I'm sorry. You can make that
Jeff: I was gonna say that's a, that's a me joke. I can say that. I can say that.
Brent: Oh.
Jeff: I gotta find a place to pop back in. She was touched by a Vorlon and isn't afraid to claim her space anymore. Oh. But she wasn't the only one that was touched by a vo lawn and No, nobody pulled out a doll and asked them to show where on the doll the vo lawn touched them. But remember, Sheridan held ASHA's Katra for a while, and even now he has a part of Lorian inside of him.
So, yeah, he's not putting up with her not so mundane bss and she gets locked up. In the meantime, in Kars absence, his celebrity and cult of personality have grown exponentially. Not only did he apparently allow somehow the NARS to attack the sari without any consequence or so that would appear to them, but he was also on the planet during the bombardment and was not injured.
It's a miracle now half the Kari want 'em to come back to Narn and rule them all. The other half want him to come back to Narn to bless them and their continued leadership. Either way, Jaar is wanted back on Narn. Well, Garibaldi ends up visiting Lita in prison after he and Lisa talked. They swing quite a deal.
He wants to get Lita. He wants Lita to get rid of his neural block, but as she's gotten really good at doing, she tells him what that's going to cost. So Lita has the ability to fundraise, but she doesn't have the ability to launder money. So she wants Garibaldi to hide out in the Ozarks and handle all the money she brings in, have a legit publicly facing account, and a second one where she can keep biting at sco.
He does this, she leaves the station, and in two years she takes down the narrow block and they both take down sco. But if she can't be on the station anymore and she can't go back to earth, where's she gonna go? I wait. Jaar can't go back to Narn and he can't stay on the station if he wants to dismantle this cult of personality that's building around him.
This seems like a match made by the great maker. And the episode ends with a reminder that Londo is still sitting on the throne alone in the dark. Oh. Oh wait. That's right. And also Delen is pregnant. Hey Brent, why don't you spin that wheel of fire and hit me with your thoughts on this one.
Brent: Uh, well, here's my first thought, uh, touched by a lon.
Jeff: Right.
Brent: I either need this as a, as a cheesy TV show, or I need a t-shirt. He says, I'm touched by a vlan.
Jeff: I just imagine like, like a Kosh, right? You know, up in the encounter suit with an ET finger just reaching out, just.
Brent: Oh my gosh. Touched by a vlan. Uh, Jeff, you know, I, I gotta be honest, man, I had no idea where this episode was gonna go. Um, after last week with Londo and the fall of Sari Prime, where that really felt like that wrapped up his story and set him on the road to what we saw in War Without End. Like, like Rondo's story feels done to me at this point.
You know, I, I, there is something more I think they could do with him, but if, if that was the end, and that's where we are. Like we know how this goes for him. And Londo actually, he turns out good. Um, by the time this is all said and done. Right. Um, so what else is out there? Like what threads need to be wrapped up?
Okay. We are literally three episodes away from the big series finale. Like we only have three episodes to wrap up this set of storylines. So what's out there? Of course, Garibaldi and his drinking had to be it. That has been such a long running story for this entire, uh, uh, season. Um, and really not just the whole season really the whole series, like from all the way back in, in season one when we first learned, what was it?
It was the Kemmer episode right? When Leona came. Yeah. And we learned about, about his, his addiction and his past and where he's been, and. There's been these, these just little subtle things, subtle reminders throughout the course of the series of Garibaldi being sober and all that sort of stuff, knowing he could fall off the wagon any moment.
And sure enough, he did when everything happened. So of course this had to be it. I'm good with this episode. I'm good with this story. I'm even good with this story being right here in the season. I will say though, this story felt very low key in comparison to the other recent episodes that we've had and the ones that I anticipate are coming here in the next couple of weeks.
Um, I think this episode's absolutely gonna be in the top half of the season when we do ranking. Uh, it's just, you know, you, you said it, it's gonna be this sort of a lull, and this episode felt like a lull. But I don't want anybody to, to get me wrong. I don't mean that this episode was any less important or impactful than the previous episodes.
It's just like tonally, it was lighter. It was, it was, it was more focused. Whereas the past couple of episodes have been very galactic and very big and very planetary. This is about a single person, you know what I mean? It's, it's just, it's a lot more intimate of an episode. Um, so I like this one. I like it had individual stakes.
I think this one had a really quite a bit to say. Um, as we go through, I think the Lita thing is gonna be fascinating and, and what, how that whole thing plays out. And, um, you know, I gotta tell you, I, I have questioned this entire season, the wisdom of bringing in Lockley as a new character to replace Ivanova in the cast because she's frankly not really been a, a, a difference maker.
Jeff: At all. Mm-hmm.
Brent: If it all came down to what she did in this episode, this makes it worth it to me.
Jeff: Totally.
Brent: You know what I mean? So, uh, yeah, that's where I'm, I I'm very high on this episode. Even if it's not like, yeah, like, like this is, it, it's, it's just appropriately in that, that lull that you said. Uh, but I did, I did like it.
How about you, Jeff?
Jeff: I really like this episode. Um, I've got, has it been a theme and people have called it out, but a theme for me lately, I really liked it, but it's got some flaws in it. Uh, to me, the flaws in here aren't its fault. Um, and I'll talk about that in a second. It's the, they're products of its time. But this was a necessary episode in every single way.
I, um, I really liked the stuff around Lita and I like, I feel like Patricia Tolman is more comfortable in this version of Lita like, Yeah, just kind of, I don't know, it just, she feels more natural how she is. And, um, I really intentionally use the term claiming space above. I interviewed this incredible person on my Starlight Leadership Academy podcast named Eliza Van Court, who wrote a book called Claiming Space, and it's about women, uh, reclaiming the space that that should be there.
It's a great book. She was a great interview. Huge Star Trek fan. Um, but that's what Lead is doing, and I think it's awesome. That said, Brent, I don't think we're getting the telepath war. It's not gonna happen. I,
Brent: I don't know. We still have two more, Jeff. I mean, this, this really could be setting us up, like, like, and I was, I mean, 'cause I can totally see, so Garibaldi is going through his whole deal. He's, he's set up this whole thing with Lita, right? That. Garibaldi is gonna be the one to go do something, which is gonna put Garibaldi in best's
Jeff: mm-hmm.
Brent: But this, I mean, you were just talking about Lita, like she's more comfortable in this. Okay. You know who this is to me? This is Talia. I was gonna talk about this later. Remember when Talia went bad and I said, evil Talia is the best. Talia.
Jeff: Okay.
Brent: This amped up version of Lita is the best version of Lita. I'm sad.
We're just now getting it here at the end, but we're getting a whole lot more minutes than what we got with Talia,
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: you know? But you're a thousand percent right about Lita. This is the best version of Lita as a character. You're right. Patricia Tallman is chewing scenery when she's in the as. As opposed to just sort of being there and, and, and just being like a pretty face, like as frankly she kind of was early on.
Like she is a force and, and honestly, she might be the biggest. Villain or, or at least potential threat. More than the shadows, more than Londo and the, and the Sari more than Bester. And to see her and like that, this goes to Garibaldi, Bester, Lita jumps in, there's this big thing between Lita and, and Bester representing the sco. and Garibaldi is the one who ultimately gets to take him out. 'cause Lita, something happens to Lita and Garibaldi has to take best out. Like that's the end of that story. Like that's next episode. Like I could absolutely see that being being the case.
Jeff: It'd be great. But then why'd they put such an emphasis on two years? Two years?
Brent: I was say, I actually think you're right.
Jeff: I just, the minute, the minute she was like, Hey, this will be a good deal. I'll be back in two years. I'm almost like you, God. But, but I tell you what, three episodes, right? Two for real. Like two that are from this story. We get to the end of episode 21 and we don't see bester. I'm gonna write a very sternly worded letter. Be very upset. They build so much up around this and, and, and, and tell us after, after we get here, um, 'cause this, this might happen. Brett, you might be right. Maybe this happens in the next two episodes. This, this comes up. Maybe it doesn't, but are there
books?
Brent: record. I'm not making a prediction that that's what's gonna happen. I'm just saying I could see that, that type of a story being something here over the next two, two episodes,
Jeff: Yeah. Well,
Brent: that's what's gonna happen
Jeff: when we get to our predictions, I think that we will find that we, I don't really know where this is going from here, so maybe that is where it goes. That would be awesome if it's not where it goes. Are there books, comics, something that tell this telepath war story because especially after this dude, she's raising millions of dollars.
She's got Garibaldi pulling people up. I want to see
Brent: Jeff, the telepath war was what we already saw with Byron. That was going to be, that is what the telepath war was. Not much of a war, if you ask me. It was awful.
Jeff: it's just dumb. That's
Brent: was, it was. And if we go out with Bester on the chorus mother, the chorus father, I mean, look, that's a, that's an interesting
Jeff: Yeah. It was fun.
Brent: interesting episode to be his final episode.
That doesn't wrap up anything having to do with him. Like that's just a one-off episode. That's kind of a cool concept. But to let that be his last episode, like I, we look, we got, we got two more episodes, man. That's all I'm saying. We got two more episodes. I, I think it's got to be something here, you know.
Jeff: Yeah. Now, my last little bit on this one is that, uh, this was, this was an episode really focused on recovery. And, you know, Garibaldi beginning that recovery journey, having friends, having people that are trusted around him. And it was, it was great to see, but I had a hard time watching this because this was written through a lens of 1998 and we are smarter and better around addiction and recovery now.
And so the stuff that was, uh, a lot of the Lockley stuff that was great and well intentioned. Like it came across as mansplaining to me. You know, where it's like, well, you know, yeah, I do know I've been through recovery before. Well, and so I don't wanna call it mansplaining. And so recovery splaining, you know, and it's like, I mean, I get it, and that's kind of what we did at the time.
But watching it now, it's like, it doesn't feel good to see that. That said, that's not a fault of the episode. That's a hundred percent a me thing, and I'm not gonna let that color. My view of the episode, I just kind of want to put that little thing of this deal's with an ever evolving. Subject and an approach to a disease that, well, we know better now, and so good for them for putting it out there.
Uh, I, I appreciate what it was, but yeah, this was a great episode. Really enjoyed it. What about you,
or
Brent: I, I wanna, yeah, I, I wanna, I wanna piggyback off that though. One thing I really appreciate about Babylon five and in turn, j m s is the people who confront others about their addiction. And this show is rife with addiction storylines.
Jeff: Oh yeah.
Brent: Season one, Garibaldi and Kimer. Right. Um, didn't we see, we saw something else in season one outside of the Kimer episode as well?
I think,
Jeff: I'm pretty sure.
Brent: I don't remember exactly what it was. Um, but certainly Franklin and his stem addiction, Garibaldi drinking now, um, we know about Lockley and, and her deal. Um, yeah, those, those are, those, those are the ones that immediately come to mind because they're right in my face and, and they're, they're super, I'm sure there's probably others that we really could point to, uh, that deal with it. But, uh, oh, so Zach, Zach's another character who has had his issues.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: The only people who confront and talk to the people who are in their addiction have been people who have been addicts like that, that has been.
Um, and that's not to say that only addicts can confront addicts because, because, uh, uh, Bruce Box slider, uh, Sheridan, Sheridan certainly had his confrontation with Garibaldi in this episode, but it wasn't the, uh, I've gotta shake you out of this confrontation that Lockley had with him. You know, and there is something that, there is a way you can talk to somebody when you go, dude, I've been there.
I know what this is because this is me. This is who I am. I, I, I hear Zach saying, you're an, you're an alcoholic, Michael, you can't have a drink. Like, you know, and I don't know what J Jm S's own personal, uh, uh, history is with addiction, but he writes it so well, so, so well, and while I hear what you're saying about Lockley and the kind of addict explaining, or, or, or mansplaining. I loved how she handled that whole situation. I, I loved, I loved her coming to him and just like she talked him through it, talked him through it, and she got to a spot where she said, uh, what was she? She said, if you, if you could smoke it, drink it, inject it, swallow it, let it dissolve under your tongue, absorb it through your eyeballs like she did it.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: You know, that was, that was her thing. And, uh, and, and you know what, this isn't something unlike her sham marriage to Sheridan. This isn't something that they just pulled out of nowhere. Like this was actually set up for us earlier in the season,
Jeff: And really well, you know, I think, I think what she did was great and it was beautiful. I think I just know that we do it better now. And a lot of the stuff that she did can, can be, it's not, but can be damaging for people's recovery. Uh, you wanna be there as an example, but not as a mm. You know, kind of a finger wagging sort of a thing.
And there was definitely not ill-intentioned, but there was finger wagging from Sheridan. There's finger wagging from Lockley, uh, from lease. Actually though lease was actually amazing in this episode. But, you know, I, I am not someone who has, I, I don't, I'm not, I don't have addiction. I'm not in recovery, but I have family members that are, but back about, gosh, 12 years ago, um, In the state of Oregon, we, under the Affordable Care Act, we started reimbursing what we call traditional health workers through Medicaid.
So people who receive their medical coverage through Medicaid could access these services. And those, some of those are pretty understandable if you're in this space, like doulas, um, that can help with birthing or even with some end of life kind of, uh, kind of things. There's health navigators, things like that.
But there was one specific group of peer support specialists that was exactly this. Oregon was, uh, early adopter of the model of credentialing people in recovery who don't necessarily have formal education but have life experience and certifications and credentials, things like that. Um, to help people who are in addiction work to recovery, uh, helped write the administrative rules and a fun little story on it.
Um, I was responsible for a lot of the background check portion of it. 'cause the federal government requires providers who are funded through Medicaid to go through a background check. And so many of these peers have massive criminal histories and that uniquely qualifies them for their, for their job.
And in the state of Oregon, we're able to acknowledge that. And so, you know, we, we don't just pass fail people on a, on a, on a background check. We do like a risk assessment essentially. And, uh, so I helped write these, these rules, but people didn't understand that when you write administrative rules or regulations, whatever your, your government calls them, um, If there's a hearing, a public hearing that happens or people can say they're peace.
So we got a room that would hold 75 people for the hearing. Uh, over 500 showed up and they were all there protesting, and many of them had signs that had my name on it. They were protesting me. Uh, they were calling me a racist, that I was trying to whitewash the recovery space. Uh, because the only people, only people who don't have criminal histories and who have master's degrees in this stuff are white people.
And I'm like, yeah, actually no, this is the opposite of that. This is allowing people with criminal history and without, without the master's degrees and things to come in and provide really good care. But it was just a fascinating moment where like, it opened my eyes to that when people don't know a thing and they tell their own stories and it's scary.
What was cool is I was, uh, up at the little Deus during the hearing and talking, and my arms slips out through my suit jacket and part of my tattoos showed and one of the guys leading the protests like literally came up and he's like, dude, you got, you got ink? I'm like, yeah, I got a whole sleeve. I got my back's pretty much all done.
I got all this stuff. Everything changed his whole demeanor. All of a sudden he is like, oh, we have something in common and it changed everything. Anyway, that's a whole tangent on a piece just to say that the execution wasn't perfect, but what they showed in this episode was, uh, was pretty progressive and fantastic.
Brent: Yeah, and I gotta tell you, I think that Lockley was the best person. On the station to be able to have that conversation with Garibaldi in the way she was able to have it. She, because of her rank and her position, her the way she's gone up against Garibaldi over the course of the season, um, to be able to come in him and have those words that she had it hit in a different way than say what Zach would've had or someone else had.
Um, and, and this is a character, you know, my very first note when I took this, 'cause we see Lockley coming on to greet Jcar, right? Uh, was Lockley, I keep forgetting about her. That
Jeff: yeah.
Brent: was my first note. Like, here we're this far in, I keep forgetting about her. And turns out she was, like I said earlier, the perfect, perfect person.
I did love the, the different sides of Lockley. We got to see throughout the course of this episode. We've talked a bit about her confronting Garibaldi. You mentioned it a little bit ago, the softer side, like there's the hard I'm gonna confront you about this. Then there's the softer side. She even respected Garibaldi, helped him maintain some dignity.
She called lease posing as him knowing he needed her and just said, I need you to get here. And she just, she didn't take any credit. She just let it be and, and, you know, handed it off in, in way like that was a really cool thing. But then we got to see the mischievous side of Lockley as well when she greets Jaar.
And you know, he's like, oh, I didn't think you'd be here to meet me. And she's like, I, I wouldn't miss this for the world. And yeah, you got some people here and he turns the corner and hears all these people, uh, you know, holding these statues and. And, and just going crazy over your car. And he's like, holy moley. And she's just back there. Like, she didn't come to meet him. She just wanted to see what was gonna, she, you know what, you know what we call her in the south, she's rubber necker.
Jeff: All right,
Brent: You know what a rubber necker is? You're driving down the highway, there's an accident on the side of the road, and you just keep turning your neck as you drive by and
Jeff: I can't not look at this.
Brent: Exactly. Exactly. She's a rubber necker. That's what she's doing. But I just, I, I love that we got to see, uh, from a character that has mostly been forgotten about this whole season, we gotta see various aspects of her personality that came through and like it coalesced and paid off for her in this episode.
Jeff: I'm over here literally writing my sternly worded letter to J m Ss, so I have it ready when he doesn't bring Bester back. So like, I'm watching you, my man. I'm watching you. But let's speak to his genius for a second. Because he created a character that we saw as an interloper, right? You're coming to replace a vva, you're coming into this sacred space.
Uh, you're not offensive, but also whatever. And then you disappear for so long, we forget you're there. But then the places that he put her and the way he used her, set her up for, we may never see her again.
Brent: Like this could be her final
Jeff: Yeah. And fine. Like he brought her in not to replace Ivanova, but for this moment, this is why he brought her in and he and he did it
Brent: Because there was no other character to do it.
Jeff: Nope.
Brent: could have been Zach, but it wouldn't have hit the same, uh, Sheridan doesn't have the, the, uh, street cred to have these conversations with him. So who's left? Like Yeah.
Jeff: And he literally hired an actor, put him in the opening credits. Built their story very sparsely and spread out for this exact moment, and it was perfect and, and she encapsulated in her mind. She's like, maybe this is why we had such a hard time because we saw too much of ourselves in each other when we met.
Brent: And, you know, but there, there's a thing when you are clearly replacing a character like a Vava who is a top three character. Like we, we've talked about this over the course of Babylon five. Like there was Sheridan, there was a Vava, there was Garibaldi, everyone else was on limited number of episodes throughout the, the course of the series.
But those three were in every episode, even Delaine. And she got more and more time as screen time as as time went on. But, you know, Londo was only had so many episodes. Jaar only had so many episodes. Um, but those three, like those were the three. So you take her out and you, uh, ideally are replacing her.
But let's face it, she was only in so many episodes. So like there's this natural, like in my mind, she's supposed to be one of the three. She's so like, like she's just not, she's not carrying the same level of weight as Bruce Box Lightner or Jerry Doyle or Mira Furlan or Peter Jui or Andre Cut. Like, she's just not, she's not, she's not even, she's not even carrying the same, um, load that those guys are.
And it's like, what's she doing here? Why did we replace, I remember saying that, why, why even replace her at this point?
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: This conversation though, Jeff really makes me want to go back and do a character study on Lockley and just watch her episodes. Just kind of like back to back to back, like go through her 9, 10, 11 episodes,
Jeff: I was gonna say four, but
Brent: No, she had, I, I, I really wonder how many she was actually in. I'm not sure. Um, but kind of watch and track. How those, the writing and what j m Ss set up about her character leads to this moment here at the end. Assuming this is the last Lockley we get, I don't know. It might, you
Jeff: 'cause they, they set her up. At first, the whole thing was, were you pro Clark or Pro Sheridan, you know, and there's a big buildup and you know, she gave, I'm Pro Earth. I worked for Clark, but I'm pro Earth. There you go. Okay. Whoop to bed. And then she kind of floated and did some stuff and then, then we got Day of the Dead, you know, where it's like, oh, now we're getting some insight into her.
I think it was one of the most valuable things that happened in that episode was, you know, getting that insight into her. But that was all to set this up.
Brent: If, if that's true from a, from a storytelling standpoint, j m s is a flogging genius,
Jeff: Oh yeah.
Brent: and I really want it, like I, you have to ask the question, what would've happened if, if Claudia Christensen would've come back for the SE season, would we still have gotten her? I. Would I vava have been promoted?
Jeff: Mm
Brent: Would, would Lockley have come in as the new xo?
Maybe two of Vava. So she's still here right. But she's
Jeff: Different role.
Brent: a different role, right? Or, or something of that nature, like, like, uh, was she always a part of the plan for season five, you know?
Jeff: Yeah. And my last big thought on the Garibaldi stuff goes back to Sheridan. You know, so Sheridan had had some compassion in, in how he approached Garibaldi, but he was really the manager, you know, of like, dude, you're not doing your job. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna address that, which is appropriate. But I was struck when he was talking 'cause he kinda, he made some comment and Garibaldi iss like, you've known all this time and Sheridan's, like, I've suspected, I've suspected it.
Well here's my question. If you suspected, why did you hand him all of the responsibility for watching the, the having the white stars? Watch the sari for stuff like we talked about it before, how like it's a 24 7 job to watch and listen for these things. So shame on you one. But also if you thought he might be drunk Sheridan, that's wildly irresponsible.
Brent: I, uh, I don't think you're wrong. I'm trying to give Sheridan the benefit of the doubt here of uh, 'cause he would've had to have suspected by then, but also, look, I don't have the proof. I can't charge him with this. I can't go to, I'm not gonna, uh, I'm not gonna accuse him of something I don't have proof of.
Jeff: Not
Brent: I need somebody to do this. And.
Jeff: Hey, Garibaldi and random Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle outfit, dude. Um, the two of you are gonna be on this frequency and run shifts or whatever, but when the white stars call on this frequency, call me and do this thing, boom. Just give 'em a backup. You don't even have to address the issue, but to put all your eggs in the Garibaldi basket on something that, I mean, it literally precipitated the, the attack
Brent: Entire war.
Jeff: Prime.
Yeah.
Brent: Yeah, it did. It did. Yeah. I You're not wrong. You're not wrong. But plot
Jeff: Right. Exactly. Gotta do that. Gotta do the plot.
Brent: plots. Uh, now that being said, since you brought up Sheridan, um, I loved what Sheridan did in this episode.
Jeff: Yes.
Brent: So he goes in and Garibaldi comes in, he's sweating bullets, and he is, he is whatever. And, and. Sheridan sitting from a sitting position looking up, he doesn't even do the, like, I'm gonna get taller than you think.
He goes, you're drunk. He's like, oh. And he stands up and he is like, Hey, listen, we'll pick all this up tomorrow, delin. I need to see you just for a moment. You stay. And he goes out in the hallway because now I don't know what precipitated it, but he's mad. He tells us, he's like, I was mad, he says, but Delin has a way of seeing, of looking at things right now. I don't know about you, Jeff, I don't know about your personal deals or, or you know, the, the impacts that certain people have on you. But here's what I know. My wife is the only person who has a certain way that when I am really upset, and, and rightly so, by the way, I.
Who kind of had, she really kind of has that calming effect and is like, no, look at it this way. Ha. Like she, she helps bring that stuff out to me to go give me, you know, she has that effect to just give me a chance to take a breath so that I can actually handle stuff when I need to handle stuff.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: The fact that he would take her out in the hallway, and I, I am projecting that he knew he needed to talk to her first before he talked to Garibaldi.
'cause he was gonna blow up at Garibaldi,
Jeff: Totally.
Brent: you know what I mean? And he took advantage of that relationship like that. That's knowing yourself, knowing your partner. That's Dely being every bit the partner in this with Sheridan and him, depending on her, um, in ways in, in, in, you know, hopefully she depends on him in that same way for different things, you know what I mean?
But I loved that little. Half of a second scene where Delin was out there, just kind of look, she was kinda giving him a talking to like, no, you remember he's this and he's this and he's your friend. And, and it, it let Sheridan come back in and just be a true friend and be like, okay, I am, I'm still your friend and here's all this and I am concerned for you, the person more than I am your job.
Also, I am the president and I have a job to do here, so you know, you can't go back to work, but uh, I'm not gonna just fire you either. We're gonna let you get the help you need. Do you know what, this sounded to me like
Jeff: Hmm.
Brent: this sounded like what we know happened between Michael O'Hare and Jay Michael Rasinski,
Jeff: Wow.
Brent: when Michael O'Hare was having his issue and he was able to, like I if is, if I understand the story correctly, j m s was aware of that issue during the filming of season one.
Was like, okay, let's try to get a handle on this. You know, let's work through it. But he was also aware it was getting worse and worse and worse. And, you know, Michael O'Hare was like, Hey, listen, I can't keep doing this. Or J M Ss was like, Hey, how you doing? Like, there was something. And, and J m s was like, no, let's get you into treatment.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: Let's, like, j m s helped facilitate, like, let's get you where you need to be. Um, let's do what we gotta do. I, you know, can't leave you in this role. As I actually, as I understand, I think J M Ss was gonna pause the show. Michael O'Hare was like, you know, if you do that, the show's done. So we can't do that.
Let's get somebody else in. And, and, you know, and, and, and j m s wrote Michael O'Hare back in to the story to give his character some closure that it needed, which was awesome. And gave, gave you Jeff, which might still actually be your biggest win. Like, uh uh, Jeff. Okay. Let's ask the question. What's the bigger win for you that, that Sinclair was Vallen.
Not just the soul of Vallen, he was valent or that, uh, Sheridan's first wife was still alive, uh, working with the shadows.
Jeff: I think, I think it's gotta be Sinclair because like the, the Anna thing to me was so obvious, like it was so obvious once it came together, I think,
Brent: Okay. I'm glad you I didn't, I didn't, I was like, no, I didn't think they'd go that way at all. But
Jeff: I don't know. I just
Brent: kudos to you, my friend. Kudos to you.
Jeff: the Sinclair thing was completely like me. I, I was literally just like, what is the most ridiculous thing I can think of? And I'm, I'm gonna go all in on that 'cause why not? And then it was just like,
Brent: well, I just, I just wanna know, there was one person who said, before you ever said that Sheridan is a
Jeff: That was you. That was you.
Brent: just saying,
Jeff: It was in Legacies. It was the mo. I'll never forget it. It was when we're talking about it. 'cause Naro was like, you talk like a Ari and like because, because he is a Ari.
Brent: And that's why they stopped and that's why. And then we got what, a couple episodes later into season two and Lanier is like, yeah, our souls are winding up in human beings. And we're like, yeah,
Jeff: yep. There it is. Called it
Brent: And then I don't know at what point you went. Yes. And Claire is veiling and everybody listening who's seen the show, like pooped their
Jeff: like,
Brent: got into car accidents while they were listening to you say that
Jeff: yeah, I think I
Brent: you and I were like, whatever.
Jeff: right? I think I spent 20 minutes in war. War without end. Just being like, thank you for not blowing that. That's a, I mean, kudos to all of you. That's amazing that you didn't blow that.
Brent: You it. That's another thing that does make you wonder, kind of like the Ivan of a Lockley thing. Like if Michael O'Hare would've stayed, does this end with him going back to be valent or does Michael O'Hare. Die when he goes to Zaha dom or like, like assuming that that Sheridan's journey was planned to be, to be Sinclair's like, like where, where is the difference?
Who would've been veiling if it
Jeff: Yeah. Like what, what, because I've, I've heard that Sheridan was always a part of the story, but I haven't heard like what parts each one of them would've played. So Yeah.
Brent: yeah.
Jeff: And he was great.
Brent: know, if this one had to go, then we accelerate this guy. That's what I mean, like with the Lockley thing, like, like the, if, if Ivana is out, then we just accelerate Lockley coming in. But she was planned for this last season. Like, I wonder, I, I just want, I
Jeff: But she always a part of the plan,
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: but speaking of always being part of the plan, Delaine's pregnant.
Brent: that was fun. That was just, that was a fun, like a fun to see because again, it goes back to the stuff we saw in War Without End. Like I've, I've said for weeks that. I didn't think we were going to that war without end. You know, prophecy doesn't come true. Visions don't come true. The future's not set in stone.
They set us up for that way back in season one. But what we saw does seem to be coming true,
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: you know, and, and it all does seem to be leading towards that. So De Lens's pregnant. David's on the way
Jeff: Well this is a thought. It's a, I had a thought actually because if I, and I could be wrong, it's been a long time, but in war without end, um, she just said, our son David didn't give any indication if he, what, how old he was or anything like that. So if there was more of this show in front of us, I would think that this is not David.
Is some other baby, it's not gonna go well.
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: You know, the, the maybe miscarry or, or, or something like that. Um, it'll be sad. Oh my gosh, we can't ever do this, this whole, and then there'll be a miracle she's pregnant again. And then that's David. But because we have two actual episodes left, three in total, this is totally David.
Um, which is cool. I loved,
Brent: think I, I, let me ask you this. When you first heard about David, how old did you picture him in your mind?
Jeff: I actually thought of him as being like older, like,
Brent: I thought of him as an adult,
Jeff: yeah. Yeah. I think it was
Brent: wouldn't have fit the timeline. Like I thought of him like as a 20 year old, and that wouldn't fit the timeline at
Jeff: I thought it was, when Londo said 17 years, I'm like, oh, he is probably like 16, 17 years old. Like, it's, it's a, it's a, Hey, everything gets set up. Delaine and Sheridan go celebrate. He's like, Hey, we had our first kiss. I did. You didn't, but I did. Let's go make that real and let's make a baby. And then there's David.
Brent: yeah.
Jeff: But I wonder, it did make me think though, 'cause there was the whole thing of just like, can she have a baby? We didn't know if she could we blah, blah blah. And I'm like, do you not remember anything for more without end?
Brent: I remember that too. Uh, you, because that was just a couple episodes ago, right?
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: Yeah. Oh, no, it was
Jeff: No, there was this one, but a couple
Brent: Oh my God. What am I talking? Yeah, it was, it was,
Jeff: episodes ago, it was the Londo stuff where I'm
like,
Brent: all starting to run together. Um,
Jeff: it's like all these pieces he remembered, he remembered the don't go to Zaha Doom thing and that's why he did go to Zaha Doom.
'cause he thought he was gonna subvert to len's expectations, but, and here we are for that. But he seems to have forgotten all the stuff that Longo told him that he's watching Unfolded real time. He forgot that he had a kid and that, so I don't know. I, I mean, again, I'm being nitpicky here, but
Brent: a question. I have a question, and this is a very important question. Okay. So way back in war without end. Okay. Delaine said, um, uh, our son is safe. We won the war, right? And Sheridan goes, okay, yeah. Oh, so we won the war. And she says, yes, but at a terrible price. Is the price, the like, 'cause because remember after the whole thing happened with Sheridan, like when he died, died and he came back and Lauren like's like, dude, you got like 20 years. I'm gonna give you 20 years. And that's all you got. Was that the price, was Sheridan like sacrificing himself and then putting a limit on, on his life at that point?
Or
Jeff: I,
Brent: was it something else?
Jeff: I don't know. 'cause what I remember in War Without End is I remember her freaking out about, so we had the whole question, we built a thing that will last a thousand years. And we were like, what the heck is that? And apparently it's the alliance. Apparently, I guess, but she's like, but the sacrifice, the sacrifice.
So it's this, I'm just repeating your question from a different thing she said of like, what, what's the, is it, is it their first kid? So in, in Dune right in, in, I haven't dust dusted off, there's a dune reference for a dune reference. Um, haven't dusted off them in a long time, but in the first book, so, uh, Paul Mu falls in Love with Channy, who's a f Reman, and you can see that in the, the wonderful movies.
But, um, they get pregnant and they have a baby names it Lido II after his dad and he's out fighting the, the, the harkening all across Iraqis and they're running raids on the sea etches and stuff like that. So he's off fighting and then he gets word that they busted into his sea and. Killed his baby.
Lido II is dead. Fast forward couple books. Uh, he has another baby, two Babies, twins, uh, Gama, which means Spoil of War. And Lido ii, who's his baby, who's name after his dad, but he is actually Lido third, but only Lito the second. And he goes on with a very long, you know, 10,000 year something odd story. But, uh, but it made me think of that, like, is there gonna be this baby that's born Preda, or is David, but not the David?
And that's the sacrifice, is that baby, because Sheridan even made the, the note to Franklin, which I thought was a little weird, um, to, to say this early in the thing of like, Hey, if it comes down to the baby or Ghislaine, you saved Ghislaine. And so it's like, oh, is he gonna, is David baby David gonna be the sacrifice?
And then we get another baby? David? I don't know. I don't know. That's a really long answer to your question.
Brent: To say, I don't know.
Jeff: Yeah. No idea. No idea.
Brent: Yeah. I, I have, yeah.
Jeff: But her running in and cussing was bastards. Bastards. That was, that was amazing. It made me think of that time when she's like, but your butt, my butt. But this, she's grown so much.
Brent: Hey, Jeff, this, this just occurred to me, you know how Babylon five has these, uh, uh, freaking out.
Jeff: Yeah. Your video's freezing a little
Brent: You got me?
Jeff: Yeah. I can hear you, but your video's choppy.
Brent: Okay. I'm not sure. Hold on. Gimme a second
Jeff: Oh, no.
Brent: copy for me. Hey,
Jeff: Yeah. Try not to quit your browser. That adds a lot of work to me. When we, when we switch, switch that.
Brent: can do that, but oof.
Yeah, I Hold on. Lemme just do this. There we go. That made it
Jeff: You're lined up.
Brent: Okay, great. Um, so this just occurred to me, and I think I might be right on this, you'll know this off the top of your head. Uh, we had, uh, what do we have? We had season two was coming of shadows. Season three was, um, no return or point of no return.
Jeff: of no return,
Brent: Yeah. Uh, season four was, and season five is,
Jeff: fire.
Brent: is it?
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: This one doesn't seem to have the import that the others had. I.
Brent: or does it,
Jeff: Right.
Brent: I don't know. I mean, Hmm. Sorry. I don't know why that just occurred to me or saying that.
Jeff: Yeah, no, it's a great thought. 'cause like the other episodes were pretty darn pivotal, you know, in big ways. Although, like I could make the argument that season three should have been called Severed Dreams, but it's not the, it's not just the episode, it's the tone, you know, you have for the, the season.
But I would think that there's, if this is that pivot point that makes the big difference, it's either this Delaine being pregnant or it's the Lita stuff. Because we learned some stuff about Lita in this one that's going to have ramifications.
Brent: uh, I have, I have one final comment about Sheridan and Delin, and then we can move on. Actually, it's more Sheridan and Gar Baldy, uh, nineties banded collars are awful.
Jeff: They went all in on that style. And for this show,
Brent: yeah. Like this is the civilian look now this banded thing buttoned here. Vest with a jacket with weird, weird looking lapels. And both Sheridan and Garibaldi were wearing them.
Jeff: I, I feel like it was 1993 and they're like, we're gonna make this, this TV show. Let's drive to Mervin's and say every single one of these colorless button up shirts, you will ever, we will buy all of them.
Brent: We're gonna need them in five years.
Jeff: Yeah,
yeah,
Brent: 1998, Jeff?
Jeff: yeah. Well that's what I was saying. They bought 'em all because they've been wearing these shirts the whole time and I know Yes.
Brent: no. They've had their uniforms this whole time.
Jeff: But when they've been casual or even the uniforms like the, uh, like Corwin back when, when they had their maer D uniforms, they were all the collarless little things. When I ran for junior class president in 1992, Which I won by the way, for my speech. I walked out on stage wearing gym shorts, one of those collarless white button-up shirts and a sport coat with my hair and a half ponytail.
And I said that the junior class is not only aching for this whatever thing I was running for, but they're Aiken for Jeff Aiken. And I won that election. I ran my follow up for student body president as well. I have not won an election since then, and I have ran in them that, uh, that, that, that little slogan doesn't work outside of high school.
Brent: please tell me you didn't actually run on that slogan as an adult.
Jeff: No, I did not. What I, I, I, I switched it around When I ran for city commissioner, I read, um, I'm Aiken for Oregon City.
Brent: Jeff.
Jeff: Yeah, I made t-shirts. I think I still have some in the garage. Note that I did not win.
Brent: All right. Let's talk about Lita. Uh, we, I already said this earlier, but I, I just wanna bear this. Lita is the best lita I've ever seen in my life. I want this Lita. Lemme tell you what, they've got her in this little room, and the only reason why she's in that little room is because she lets them put her in that little room.
Jeff: Yeah, she's allowing this to happen. That in her straight jacket honestly looked kind of comfortable.
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: Whole thing though, for me, started out with a bad, gave me a bad taste in my mouth from go, like they come out fully armed to the teeth. Zach's, they got body armor like they're ready to go. Couldn't Zach just be like, Hey Lita, we gotta talk about
something. Like this is what's like, they jumped
Brent: Isn't Zach the ex-boyfriend?
Jeff: I thought so.
Brent: Right.
Jeff: He was all eager about getting up and, you know, Hey, let's go arrest her. Let's lock her up. Let's do it. And I'm just like, how about, how about have a conversation with her, you know, sit down and talk. Whew. Yeah, they, they went all in. They wouldn't go. Yeah,
Brent: So we find out this, this, uh, bit of information about Lita, she is the Doomsday device set up by the Vons, or I'm assuming, set up by the Vons, right? Yeah. Like, like she is it, what does that mean?
Jeff: I know,
Brent: Because I'm telling you, I really, I like the shadows do not bother me compared to what this is
Jeff: She's so beyond, so beyond anything. There was the scene. I mean, really just, I mean, we've talked about how she got dude to shoot himself in the face, you know, like two weeks ago, uh, in this one she got everyone in the bar to like unify and there he started playing, you know, Dayo or whatever, and like next level.
But the, the one that freaked me out the most is when Garibaldi went to visit her and he's like, Hey, let's head out somewhere. The cameras can't hear us. What camera? And I'm like, oh my God. It's not even brains. Like she's got the telekinesis. She's got, she is the dark phoenix.
Brent: This, I mean, this, this is what Iron Heart tried to give Talia and turn Talia into. Like, that's, that's what this is, uh, only now it came from, from Lita, and it's going, I, I don't know what way it's going. So her and,
Jeff: Yeah,
Brent: um, yeah,
Jeff: I think it's cool how Jaar positioned it too is just like, she's very hurt. She's very angry. I was there before, in fact, I, I don't even have this in my notes for later, but there's a real theme in this whole episode of peer support, right? So we got that with Lockley and Garibaldi
Brent: look at you.
Jeff: and then Jaar, you know, Hey, I've been there.
I know what it's like. I can, it'd be great for us to travel together. I can help her work through that stuff. Juxtapose using your word that with the gathering Jaar, who's like, let's check out, test out your pleasure threshold, baby. And now he is like, actually, let me mentor you and help you find some mental health.
Brent: Well, and just an episode or two ago, she was like, I don't have a pleasure threshold.
Jeff: Right. Whoa.
Brent: Um, Jaar iss a good dude. Let's just say that. He is absolutely good, dude. Um, I loved his line. It is better to make a statue of somebody who, em, who embodies all of your better qualities than it is to just change yourself.
Jeff: crud.
Brent: Wow.
Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Gonna talk about that one later on
Brent: I might have just stepped on your deal, but we gotta talk about these statues, man.
Jeff: Yeah. I want one So bad.
Brent: Well, well, here's the thing. Is it a statue of Jaar or is it a statue of cork? Looked like it, didn't it
Jeff: It totally does. Okay. Sure. You know what? Star Trek, strange New World's totally stole from Babylon. We established that. It is, that is, that is, that is solid. Uh, Babylon five literally stole from Star Trek, like they went to the lot and stole props.
Brent: Yeah. They stole corks, uh, candle holders. They stole all his bottles and stuff from the, from the bar, and then they stole his image and put it into a statue.
Jeff: Oh man. My favorite thing about the statue and stuff though is how much he hated it. Like that just said so much about him, you know, a a as a person and how he sees all this and, and it, and it just made so much sense. You know, he is like, I can't stay here. It's gonna become a safety issue for the station and I can't go back to Narn because I'm not that I am not and I'm not going to be that.
It was, you know, him totally affirming and validating what he said back in season four. It was awesome. That Shakar was so good in this episode.
Brent: Well, Jeff, uh, you said you were gonna mention a line here kind of in the the end, so why don't we get to that spot? This is the spot where we boil everything all down and we see if this episode holds any of those deep moral messages. Is it holding up a mirror to society? Are there certain things that's trying to tell us?
Is it giving us hope that things can be better in the future or that we can do things better in the future? And how is it delivering that message in its own unique Babylon five way, unlike any other show out there, Jeff, you get to do that this week. You're gonna be rating this on a scale of zero to five white stars as to how strong the message is and how Babylon five it was delivered.
Jeff, what you got for us this week?
Jeff: There are three really big points in this one. Two of them come from Kar, the one that we just said, right? It's simpler to make a statue of someone who embodies, uh, the every everything that it's simpler to make a statue of someone who you believe embodies all your better qualities than it is to actually improve yourself.
Then he also says, I understood the Ari because I lived there. I saw them talk about that. And finally we see how being vulnerable and connecting with people can help. Now, we talked about the vulnerability piece quite a bit with him and Lockley Lockley opened herself up. She shared very personal things, very risky things about herself for her and her position of power to share to someone who has been very vocal about how he'd do anything to take her down and to share, Hey, here's all my dirty laundry.
Here are my weaknesses. Here's me laid out. And for him to fight, like he fought back, you know, and he just got chipped away. And I think that I heard, I heard this incredible like math equation before that lines up to this. And it's that vulnerability times time equals connection. The longer you're vulnerable with someone, the more closely you're connected.
And what we saw because of the crisis and the trauma and the addiction that Garibaldis living in, that was kind of hyper compressed in a way. 'cause that's what happens in that situation. But in being vulnerable, they were able to form a real connection. Garibaldi did that with Lita as well. He went and talked about his neural block, you know, and he shared this thing.
I, I am, gosh, I'm less of a man because of this thing Bester did to me. I, I'm incapable of doing a thing and I'm gonna share that with you and I'm gonna, I'm gonna do the thing that so many people struggle with. I'm gonna ask for help. And in that they were able to negotiate a mutually beneficial deal.
Everyone was better, well, somewhat mutually, possibly beneficial.
Brent: I could, I could push back on. Every deal we have heard Lita try to strike where she was first talking to Jcar, trying to strike a deal. And now here with Garibaldi, the deal, it never seems that equitable to me.
Jeff: Yeah,
Brent: Like, I'll do this thing for you, but here's everything else I want in order to do that. And it's like that doesn't, you know, people usually wind up saying yes.
So I guess it works for her, but it just, it always seems to be very slanted. I, you
Jeff: I think there's two sides to it. I think there's this side of what she has to offer is just that valuable.
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: It's that much of a commodity. But I think the other side of it, and it's where I think she's stepping up to claim her space, and I think that subconsciously these people understand it.
They have crapped on her. They have been ungrateful. They have used and abused her and just tossed her aside.
Brent: Have they though, have they though? Or is this just her, uh, Taking circumstances and turning it personal
Jeff: I think they've totally blown her off.
Brent: think so?
Jeff: They kicked her out of her apartment like she, like she's the linchpin to save, you know, everybody. And they kicked her out of her apartment.
Brent: Um, well, they were gonna move her to other quarters, right? She wasn't able to pay rent.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: You. Look, look, there, there is. God bless Jeff. You are a veteran of this, of, of our great military here in this country. Okay? Do you think that you are owed free rent for the rest of your life because you served?
Jeff: No, not at all. But you know what? I'm owed something and I got something. I got paid. Here's the thing. We had her go and test her telepathic abilities against the shadows. We had her hang out with a face mask on outside of a building in Mars to activate SICs. We did all of this. Didn't say thank you.
Didn't pay her, didn't compensate her. Just said, need you to do this thing, and we did
Brent: For the fate of the galaxy, Jeff,
Jeff: Hey, Garibaldi was getting paid for what he did. Sheridan's getting paid for what he like.
Brent: that was their job. They weren't getting paid to do that. They were getting paid for their job. They, that was all extracurricular stuff. If you ask me, Sheridan was getting paid to administrative station. That's what Sheridan was getting paid to do. Not to go play immortal God out there somewhere.
Jeff: Yeah. I, I, I think I, I, I mean, I think that Byron pushed her to a place where she took it much more personally. I. No question, but I still think like, I mean, there were whole scenes where like she, like there was a point made and was, it was during the Byron stuff where she came and said something. He didn't even say thank you.
It's just assumed she's gonna do these things. You know, she's the VLANs and especially cost
Brent: That, that's, that's a, you, you should say thank you, like
Jeff: I mean, at a minimum, but co like cost you 0.0 outright, physically, mentally, emotionally abused her. Um, but they compensated her, right? We're seeing that compensation from the Alliance from Earth, everybody else, I mean, she got nothing.
She got nothing. And so, and I think it's a piece that people have back here. And so it's like when she's like, I want half a million credits for this. They're like, well, okay. Like, I need you, like I need you for this also. Yeah. Sorry about, I'm not gonna say it. I'm not, I'm not gonna be vulnerable and say sorry, but instead I'll just pay you because it's a little easier.
Point being,
Brent: Sorry. Go
Jeff: it's all right. Point b Garre Baldi was vulnerable with her. If he had not been vulnerable with her, they wouldn't have even had a place to start negotiating.
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: So be vulnerable is the lesson there. Point number two, it's simpler to make a statue of someone you believe in bodies, your, your better qualities than actually improve yourself.
One, this is a scathing commentary on religion, I think specifically Catholicism who has, um, a devotion to statues and icons and other physical things where you can look at, no, I can look at this thing instead of like worrying about making myself better about things. But I took this a step further beyond just like holding up something that we think is what we embody and then, you know, making that a part of our identity.
I flipped it on its head a little bit and I thought about how we create imaginary monsters out there that we have to fight and this is a drum we have beaten. So much on the show. I'm not gonna dive in, but I think it was just last week even you talked about it. So I'm gonna build a statue and I'm gonna call it the Liberals.
And you're gonna build a statue and you're gonna call it the conservatives. And instead of actually like having a conversation, being vulnerable and talking about things instead of that just gonna hate you, I'm just gonna hate this image that's there. So I can do like Kar talks about and be like, oh, I profess everything to this statue because it's so great and because I profess stuff to this statue must mean I'm great too.
The opposite of that is also true, that if you create a thing and say, that thing is horrible and I hate it, that I must be good because I hate this thing. That's horrible. It's not even real. And that ties to the last thing Jaar said, and and, and I understood the sari because I lived there. He got to know the people.
Again, another theme that we have talked about so much on this show, just get to know people. Dismantle those two statues I just talked about, the liberal and the conservative, and go talk to Miguel. Go talk to Sheila. Go talk to whomever. Go, you know, meet the person and talk to that person. And this is such a mirror to what we talked about last week.
A direct reflection, not an opposite, but a direct reflection of, I might not be able to forgive your people, but I can forgive you. And you do that by meeting people where they're at, go experience their life, listen to them and understand their perspective and their point of view. And in doing that, Jahar just like brushes it off on
Brent: Jeff, I'm sorry. Can I, if I can, can I add onto that, um, part of what you're saying and tell me, correct me if I'm wrong, when you say go talk to people, you don't mean, go to them with all of your preconceived notions and play Gotcha. And try to show them how wrong they are. So they should come think like you.
That's not what you're talking about when you say go talk to them.
Jeff: Lemme totally rephrase it. Forget I said go talk to them. Go listen to them. There you go. And beyond that, go hear them, actually hear them and what they have to say. I think, you know, there there are skills like active listening, reflective listening and things like that, that we, we need to employ as, as individuals all the time.
And that's, that's what I mean, Jaar has done, we see that with him and Lando and we've seen the culmination of that story and it's beautiful. And I still, and I pause it and I put forward and I, I think Jaar believes it too, that last week he said, my people can never forgive your people. But I still think that's, Bss.
I think they can, and it's through hearing each other and understanding their experiences. That was a big part of this episode, right? This was Lockley sharing her experiences to align with Garibaldis experiences, understanding where they're at. It was Garibaldi, understanding the stuff going on with Lita, with kar, with all these pieces to put the things together.
People heard each other, connected to each other, and dismantled these statues that we put up in place of actually connecting with people. I think this was really well done. I think the messages are powerful and strong. I'm gonna give this one. Four white stars.
Brent: Wow.
Jeff: That was a lot and I think we have even more. I am excited. I've been excited like the last couple of these that you've had to do, it's, it's an eager anticipation because Brent and I are working diligently and very hard to develop the definitive unarguable unimpeachable ranking of all of the episodes in the fifth season of Babylon five.
Brent, you get to do it this week, our top five for those of you keeping score at home in the top spot and has been for a very long time. We have the very long night of Lando malaria and number two, last week's entry, the fall of Centara Prime. Number three, all my dreams torn as under then movements of fire and shadow, and finally in fifth place, no compromises.
So where Brent does the wheel of fire go?
Brent: So I, I'm. I'm actually looking a little outside the top five. Uh, so no, no compromises. That was our series, uh, premiere or Season Premiere. Right. Uh, then we had the learning curve. Just help me remember some of these episodes. Then we had Learning Curve. Learning Curve
Jeff: Learning Curve were the, uh, an analyst shock trainees who came to the station and there was the dude who was uh, gonna be king of down below. And they learned, uh, learned an analyst Shock lesson. Terror. The terror message
Brent: yeah, I like that episode. That was a fantastic episode. Um, and then there's Ragged Edge. Ragged Edge is the one we referenced earlier where girl bald got passed out drunk. Right.
Jeff: Yep.
Brent: Um, and
Jeff: And I think that's the one too, where JCAR was first. Like, oh look, it's Prophet jcar. Here's your book.
Brent: Right, right. I, yeah, that was, that was, okay. So that's, that's the minimum line right there. We are at least between ragged edge and, and learning curve, which puts us in the six to seven. Okay. Now I start asking the question as I go up, did I like it better than, did I like this episode better than Learning Curve?
Did I think it had, was it a more important episode? Did it have more to say? I think it might've had more to say, but I think I might've enjoyed Learning Curve a little more. You know, I, let's think like, I like this episode. I can't say I enjoyed this episode. This was a little bit of a hard episode to watch.
Like watching Lockley confront Garibaldi is not pleasurable.
Jeff: No. No.
Brent: You know what I mean? Um, uh, watching even, even, uh, Sheridan confront Garibaldi go through a whole piece that's, that's not pleasurable. I. Uh, seeing Jaar get confronted by a thousand of his f devoted followers. That was pleasurable. That
Jeff: that was fun. That was fun.
Brent: Uh, but then there was also that cool stuff with Lita and Garibaldi at the end. Um, okay, let me, let me just see if the next one. So no compromises now. No compromises. We met, uh, Lockley. Right?
Jeff: We had the dude who was hell bent on assassinating Sheridan.
Brent: right? Hmm. But we liked that episode though. Like that was, it was a good like, 'cause it gives, yeah. Yeah. Huh?
Jeff: It's your favorite season opener.
Brent: Yeah, it's my favorite. Um, and then I don't think, I don't think this comes close to touching moments of shadow and fire tortoise under falls into her. This doesn't come close to touching that.
So, um, like I said, this is a top half episode. This is not, um, this is not a bad episode. Jeff, let me, let me,
Jeff: Let you.
Brent: no, it's, it's, it is, I was just letting you, um, what do, let me, let me just solicit your feedback a little bit. I'm, I am between learning like I'm between learning curve and ragged edge or learning curve and no compromises.
Jeff: It's a tough one because you and I were on different sides of learning curve.
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: Um, I mean I, I, I would put this above learning curve myself, but, but also to your point, this is, um, this is an important episode. Um, there was another episode that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head that kind of took what happened in learning curve, endless shock training stuff and well, there was the one, it was a darkness ascending,
Brent: That was
Jeff: no meditation's on the abyss me meditation's on the
Brent: training for linear. Yeah.
Jeff: Yep. Then I'm like, oh, this is actually better. I. Than that one. Um, but I don't know that we both felt that way. Right. So I think I, I, I think between the two I would prob like I'm splitting the difference. I would put this one just below Learning curve.
Brent: Yeah, I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna put this one just below Learning Curve. I'm gonna leave Learning Curve right where it is. This is gonna become our new number seven
Jeff: Okay.
Brent: episode of the season. Um, but again, this is you, you take that learning curve, this one, um, actually, I think Ragged Edge comes down, put 'em in a bag, shake 'em up, pull one out, and, and I, I, that's kind of where I am on these two episodes.
Like I, I think they're both about equal in that term.
Jeff: Love it. Well, Brett, that's it for the Wheel of Fire. Next week, we're gonna watch objects in motion for the first time. This is the game that Brent referenced earlier where we predict what's coming next based on the title alone, objects in motion. We don't look at thumbnails, synopsis, descriptions, anything.
Brent just heard the title for the first time and he gets to go first. 'cause that's super fair. Uh, so Brett, what do you think objects in motion is gonna be about?
Brent: Oh my God. Why do we do this? Um, I don't, I don't know. Uh, okay. Here, you know what I do in this? I go based off of what happened in this episode, garal, I'm gonna kinda go back to what I said earlier. Garibaldi and uh, uh, Lita have now formed their little alliance, Garibaldis, getting sober. Right. Uh, or he is going through his thing. I think.
I think we have to wrap up. The Bester has a neural block in his head,
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: and this next one is Garibaldi is gonna use his, his wiles, while he's not working for the Interal Alliance to go hurt the SCO and Bester, ISS gonna come back and it's gonna be the, it's gonna be this big battle between Lita who has a lot of pent up aggression against the Sitecore over a long time.
It's gonna be the big final battle between her investor and Garibaldi is gonna get the block taken out of his head and probably be the one to do investor. That's my guess. I like that. I like that As a, as a next episode based off what we saw here in this
Jeff: Yeah, that'd be cool.
Brent: but I
Jeff: Yeah, I'm really, I'm really struggling with this one because I think the rocker focused on Sari Prime, like the Lando thing, like we said, like that's, I think that's wrapped, that's, that's done. I think. I think we might've seen today the last of Lando mal. In this episode, him just sitting there, uh, the Telepath war.
It's either gonna happen in this next episode, like he said, or it's two years down the road. Um, so I don't know. I think this one's gonna put this stuff into motion. Kar and Lita are gonna take off. We're gonna follow them off on their journey and wherever they're going, Garibaldi is gonna leave. He's gonna go to Mars.
Um, we're gonna see him kind of settling in, uh, to the Edgar's industry stuff, maybe see what that role's gonna be. And I think that this is gonna be Delaine and Sheridan. Um, they're gonna leave. This is their episode. They leave, they go to Minbar. They're gonna go talk about white star destroyers and babies.
Um, this is a leaving episode. I don't know what happened. And I think that, and then I'm like, what comes next? There's still a whole other episode. I, I'm pretty lost as to what's gonna happen. So that, that's my guess.
Brent: mean, that's kind of what we went into this episode with as well. Uh, what is this? Where are we? Yeah, that's as good a guess as any, I guess, I suppose.
Jeff: Yeah, well, hey, we're gonna find out right here next week. It's that, that quick for us. So thank you everybody so much for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcast or wherever you're watching this. Leave us a rating and a review, and please remember to share this podcast, share it with someone who loves Babylon five, or is about to fall in love with this incredible series.
So, until next, actually. Hey, Brent,
Brent: Hey, Jeff.
Jeff: have you ever been touched by an angel? Yeah. How about a lon?
Brent: I mean, I don't know. 'cause aren't Lon supposed to be angels, so maybe, right.
Jeff: Well, you know, I've, uh, I've been through this before and I, I know how to handle this. I need you to do me a quick favor, Brent. Will you show me where on the doll the Lon touched you?
Brent: Dude, get the hell outta here.
