[0:00] Coming up tomorrow we're going to watch this episode for the second time so to get you ready and us ready for that here's our very first time watching this episode it's my first.
[0:10] Music. first time welcome to babylon 5 for the first time not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin, and I am watching Babylon 5 for the first time. And I'm Brent, and I'm also watching Babylon 5 for the first time. Jeff and I are two Star Trek podcasters who are watching Babylon 5. We're going to be searching for Star Trek-like messages through this series and trying to decide if whether or not we should have watched this show sooner. And while this is not a podcast about Star Trek, we're going to use and pull in a lot of those references. That's kind of what we do. It's kind of who we are.
[0:11] Time It feels like the first time All the things I've seen With a place to come It feels like the first time
[1:07] But to help us out with that, before we came into this recording, we had a conversation and we decided that we're going to set a rule. We're going to, not the rule of two. We're not Sith. We're going to have the rule of three, right? So each of us, each episode, get three Star Trek references that we can use. But once we're done, once we've used those three, no mas. So Brent, choose your spots carefully. Fair enough. Fair enough. Jeff, this is our first official episode. Just like Babylon 5, we had a pilot episode that we did that's going to be very different from the way that we did this one here. So, guys, expect things to be a lot more colorful. Expect it to have a lot more life.
[1:54] And, Jeff, let's jump into it. Discussing Midnight on the Firing Line, officially episode one of Babylon 5 and officially episode one of Babylon 5 for the first time. For those who may not have watched it, or haven't watched it in a while, or are just listening to us and have no idea what we're talking about.
[2:14] Jeff, tell us about this particular episode of Midnight on the Firing Line. Well, it's one year after the events of the pilot, the gathering. There's a Centauri colony, and I'm going to kind of assume that people know some of these things, who the Centauri are, who the Narn are. If you don't, just follow along and we'll get there. But there's a Centauri colony called Ragesh 3, and it's attacked by an unknown group of fighters. In the meantime, on Babylon 5, there's a series of attacks by raiders on cargo and transport ships that they're trying to figure out. And their security chief, Garibaldi, has taken the lead on finding out where those raiders are and who they're going to hit next. Now, in the pilot, if you remember our conversation, Brent and I loved some of the characters. And we meet two new characters. One of them, well, we have a new telepath. And Lita Alexander, gone. No more from her. Now we have Talia Winters. And there's a fun game that happens through a lot of this episode where she's trying to check in with the new first officer, Susan Ivanova. Did I say that right? Ivanova? Yeah. Okay. She's not only expertly skilled in avoiding Talia, but also has a pretty sharp wit, too.
[3:29] As the episode continues, we find out it was the Narn that attacked Ragesh III. So Sinclair convenes the Council and the League of Non-Aligned Worlds to consider sanctions or other activities.
[3:41] Jakar is super open with Sinclair that his dream is to see the Centauri wiped out. He says, I love this, I don't know if I love is the right word, But he says that he wants to see the bones of the defeated Centauri carved into flutes for Narn children. Wow. Yeah. But he's not the only one with a dream. We also hear from Londo. Apparently, the Centauri know some of the details about how they're going to die. He says that he's dreamt of his death, which will happen in about 20 years, with his hands wrapped around the throat of Jakar as Jakar is also choking him to death. It's pretty intense stuff. Well, the Centauri and the Earth governments both instruct their ambassadors to take no action. Londo plans on feigning ignorance while Sinclair is pretty crafty about it. He decides to join Garibaldi to go after the raiders and leaves Ivanova in charge of the council meeting. But none of that matters. You see, the Narn have convinced the colonists of Ragesh III to get on a call and say that they've invited and welcomed the Narn with open arms. And to add insult to injury, the Centauri that's speaking is Londo's nephew. Furious, Londo puts together a gun out of pieces in his quarters and goes to kill Jakar. But the telepath picks up on it, reports it to Garibaldi, who's able to head him off at the pass.
[5:09] Now, Sinclair's run on the Raiders was successful, and it pulls out some evidence. We find out the Narn were indeed aggressors when they took over the colony or attacked the colony in there. So Sinclair is able to convince Chakar to get the Narn forces to withdraw. And the last piece on this that I thought was fantastic is that there's an election for the Earth president that's discussed throughout the episode. We find out at the end that the incumbent Luis Santiago wins and he wins on a platform of preserving earth cultures. And the episode ultimately ends with Garibaldi and Delenn sharing popcorn and doing Garibaldi's second favorite thing in the universe. Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. This is a family show. Well, it's cool. It's cool. It's just watching Looney Tunes. It's all good.
[6:02] Of course, Duck Dodgers and laughing way too hard at something that was funny, but not that funny. Yeah. I mean, we'll talk about it, right? But way too hard. Tell us about it, Brent. Like, so that's, that's what happened in the episode. What did you think of it?
[6:18] I think the first thing right off the cuff that you have to notice is how different this episode visually looks from the pilot. I think you said at one point, I don't remember if we were recording or if we were offline, but it's like, it's like they were making the pilot on a shoestring budget. And then they got greenlit and handed a fat check to go do some stuff. And now they got like color and they redid the Mambari's like headpiece, which when I was watching the pilot, it, I thought like the whole head thing was like just her skull. Yeah. Like that's how her head was shaped. And now it's like, Oh no, no, no. It's like a thing that her head's like just resting in, or at least that's what it looks like. Jakar's makeup's a little bit different. Londo's makeup's a little bit different, but the station, I like the station just looks different to me now. And uh so i think that's the first thing and it helps like it certainly helps because i remember watching the pilot kind of going and this seems kind of drab like i i can get into it but it just seems drab so now it's visually more exciting which is really good uh the old actors some of the old actors are gone and and i i definitely want to jump into the whole takashimi thing yeah I love Commodore. Oh, no Commodore. Oh, loved her.
[7:35] That was one for me. Oh, that's yours. Yeah, that's yours. Couldn't help myself. You know, and and nothing against Ivanova. Nothing against her. They had a strong female ethnic character, an Asian character, which you don't see in American TV, especially in the 90s. You know, you just don't. And they replaced her with a white girl. Now, that's fine. And I'm sure people didn't, like, think about it back in the 90s as much as we think about it today as we record this. But still, I was kind of like, ugh. Like, it just felt a little icky to me. I don't know, maybe Yvonne Vaughn will grow on me. I don't think there's anything wrong with her. She is also a very strong female character, and I'd give them props for that and for not turning the character also into a male. Like, I'm very proper with that. Like, that's good.
[8:34] But it had that. Overall, though, if I had to just sort of boil this down, this didn't feel like an out-of-the-gate type of an episode to me. This definitely felt like a season one type episode like i liked it but i didn't like it that much i think um but but it felt like this episode should have come more like in the middle of the season or maybe even late season one when there had been some build-up because there's definitely some history here between the not the minbari the narin and the centauri that's who it is i'm still learning all these people uh there's definitely some history there that we're just now getting to know and like we we barely know what the relationship is like between Londo and Jakar and it feels like we should have that in the bank before we get to an episode that deals with this all out just unprovoked attack, yeah so and then the B plot you know they do that typical A plot B plot thing that we see on Star Trek all the time.
[9:32] Does it count I feel like it counts I said it I literally said the name I think, But we saw that A plot, B plot thing that we see on that other series that a lot of series do. But this B plot was completely inane. It really did not serve anything. It didn't like typically what you see is your A plot is the thick part of the show. And your B plot is kind of your comic relief. Like it's the lighthearted brings a little bit of levity. Sometimes those two are flipped.
[10:04] That wasn't this. this was just as heavy and just as dark as the a plot like so it and it didn't really make sense and in the end i was like this whole thing was brought in here and they put i don't know 10-15 minutes into it over the course of the episode just to get sinclair off the station so he could not follow orders it was like it was just a plot point to just and i know they did the whole thing at the end where they brought the the other narn guy out but like, They knew who it was. They had him on video. They didn't need him to prove that it was the Gnar in attacking. So I didn't love the way they split up the story here or even the whole B-plot deal. It just didn't fit. It didn't work for me at all. And there are lots of episodes on the other show that I don't like the B-plot either. That doesn't count. I didn't say it. But this one, it just didn't work for me. So, you know, it's a season one episode. I like it enough. I'm going to keep watching. But it was season one. Yeah, I think that's fair. You know, I think what's hard for me in a lot of this is we don't know. We don't know the Earth characters at all, right? We get to know. Right. Right. We get to know Jakar a little bit in this. We get to know Londo a little bit between the gathering in this one. A little bit of Delenn.
[11:21] There's what like a whole pilot was built around Kosh and he got like what two and a half minutes in, in this one which i mean it was cool it's neat to see him like go into his little so not like not be in his suit and then go into his suit but there's all i'll talk more about him too although to be fair he was the mcguffin of the pilot yeah and he probably still got about two and a half minutes on screen as well that's true that's true maybe not even that to be honest with you but at least they said his name i don't know i just he just seemed like a non a non thing in this but, they're really leaning i think on um like on sinclair they're leaning on this guy as a character But who the heck is he? All I know is he's the commander of a station who got involved to go chase after raiders, which seems like a pretty routine operation.
[12:05] That he should not go. Yeah, no. That's something we've learned, right? The captain doesn't leave the ship. Yeah. I mean, it's not supposed to. Yeah, especially a huge, a huge station like Babylon 5. But, you know, I think... With Ivanova, what I really liked, I mean, I completely agree. We had Takashima, who, I mean, an incredible actor who's done amazing things, really owned that role in The Gathering, was great. Oh, yeah. And I think they even took a lot of notes because there's parts of Ivanova that are similar. They were both very by the book, right? They were both women in leadership positions who were really showing that, like, I deserve my spot. I've earned my spot here. but Ivanova I love she's got a quote that she hits us early on with she's like I'm in the middle of 15 things all of them annoying like at that second at that second I knew I'm gonna like I'm gonna like her we're gonna be okay but we got to know so much more about her than we know about almost anybody else on the show so there's the whole back and forth with her and the telepath.
[13:10] Where she's been avoiding her and she's been avoiding her because her mom Ivanova's mom was a telepath and when you're a telepath you can either join psych or you can uh get medicated or you can go to prison and she chose to be medicated that sent her down uh faded as who she was and she ended up killing herself um as a result and i thought this was a cool moment for vadova where talia's like okay well hey that wasn't me right she's like yeah i have nothing personal against you so we're gonna be fine no no we're not gonna be fine like i don't i don't believe in what you're doing. I thought that was great. See, if I can stop you on that, Jeff. If we could rewrite the episode, that should have been the A-plot to me. Oh, yes. Really dive into that. Okay. Really, like, as a, okay, here we go. As a Star Trek podcaster, that's the kind of stuff that I look for. Not just in the main show that we always talk about, but honestly, I look for that in all of these other shows. And even in a show like Babylon 5, which is supposed to have a lot of similarities, that's where I dive back into. Because that whole storyline in, what was that, a three-minute conversation, a three-minute scene, if that, like they opened up a whole world of possibilities to explore, and that would have been a great episode one, go explore this idea of how do you treat the mentally.
[14:40] I don't even want to say sick, what do we call them, neurodivergent. How do you treat neurodivergent people? do you just medicate them and try to try to knock it out of them to where they they just feel crappy do you throw them in in prison or in whatever kind of ward that they that we tend to throw people in um or do you do you go in and indoctrinate them yeah and and you know use them or it's what we do now and and i'm gonna i'm gonna jump on board with this because in my mind a story is a mirror of of of us right that's the whole point of science fiction of art is to be able to hold a mirror up to who we are and today in 2022 as we are recording this what do we do to neurodivergent people we medicate them we incarcerate them or they learn to mask and become indoctrinated in a way this isn't a and this was from like 94 i mean oh my gosh this is a deep thing and you would ask the question when we looked at the pilot.
[15:45] Is telepath something you learn? Is it something we didn't understand? And just this little nugget that we've gotten of how it works, and especially the PsyCore thing, because Ivanova keeps talking about the indoctrination.
[15:58] What is it she said? Talia says that telepaths need to be regulated to protect the privacy. And Ivanova's like, yep, that's what they've told you. Whoa! No, but she's like, yeah, I'm sure that's what they've told you. And then she even asked the question have you ever seen what it does exactly have you ever seen what it does and okay jeff i'm gonna go ahead and use my third one immediately i go back to the episode in deep space nine past tense where cisco and bashir and jadzia dax gets thrown back into, like i think this is like 2024 earth or something right around here where we take these people and we put them into these what we call them sanctuary districts give it a nice pretty name but you're just locking these people like this is what we're going to do to people and immediately that's what i'm thinking like have you ever actually seen what happens or are you just going to sweep it away so you don't have to look at it okay let's take this and apply this to to current day politics jeff, just a few years ago we like the whole nation got all up in arms when we had all these images about People at our southern border getting locked up in chain link fences, children getting separated from their parents and kids sleeping with foil blankets. And God knows what else is happening. We all got up in arms.
[17:19] You don't hear much about that today, but it's still happening. Exactly. It's still a thing. We're not hearing about it because we're not seeing it. We've swept it away. The people have turned away from it and nobody like people aren't really worried about it a whole lot anymore. At least I'm not hearing about it. I don't know if you are not at all, but we, but we certainly, when we saw it, so we take these people and we sweep them away. You, if, if, if in prison might be a little too hardcore of a thing for them, although a lot of neurodivergent people do wind up in jail. Yeah.
[17:49] Today in our society and that's not okay that needs to be addressed and dealt with but this like i said jeff this should have been the meat of the show this would have been super interesting and honestly the whole thing with the narn and and the the uh centauri make that your b plot if this only covers 20 minutes of your 45 minute episode and that's going to cover your other 20 and then you got five on something else cool that would have been a fantastic like i would have been great with that i think that's part of my question we we don't know babel on five right what we know what we understand is that uh j michael this is this is all one big book one big story that's true we got to keep reminding ourselves of that don't we but this is the thing and this is where i'm going to double down on your ask and where this should have happened because i have a feeling the centauri narn thing is going to be a pretty constant story throughout all five seasons of this thing, or at least pretty close. I mean, if I can make a prediction, or somewhere I have to make this prediction, somewhere we're going to have to see this, and I don't know what happens given that Londo said it's 20 years into the future, and this is only a five-season show, and I know there was something weird between season four, season five. I'm not sure what. I'm sure we'll cover it when we get there. Don't spoil it for me now.
[19:04] But, I mean, in my head, at some point, doesn't it have to end with Londo? Like do they fast forward to the future or something doesn't it have to end with londo and jakar killing each other like or is that just a famous throwaway line that we see in so many other franchises like hey this will be a cool thing to say and then like oh crud we gotta we gotta make it on this thing oh yeah right yeah i don't know we're just gonna pretend like we didn't say that so maybe so here's my hope right my hope is that the psych core thing is something we dive into it becomes a thing because what we saw in the pilot and the gathering it didn't take a lot to talk lita into violating the code of ethics right she got right into kosh did that unauthorized mind scan now talia we don't see a lot from her outside of like happening to read um londo and then immediately reporting it which seems to be in line with it so maybe that was a lita thing and not a talia thing but i'm super curious just are we going to learn more about this what i'm going to call the neurodiversity of telepaths in humanity mm-hmm.
[20:05] That's a great point, Brent. See, this is what happens when you put two people like us together to do this. But let's talk about one of the things I thought was just awesome about. So between the pilot and this episode, my far and away favorite characters are Jakar and Londo. And not just because they're the odd couple that go at each other, but I think that these are pretty realized characters. They've got motivation they have a hatred for each other that I buy when Londo walks across the promenade to go.
[20:45] Maybe it's not a promenade no you get that one back undo that, no that is not a track reference at all I don't care but that's no listen you walk down the hallway we have hallways over on the starship no come on man I got two still We're good. Okay, there you go. Whatever, I don't have a sound effect for that. I need you to hold those two because I might need to borrow one. We've got a lot of episode left to talk about. So they meet up, and immediately he's just like, dude, let's go. Let's throw down. Let's get it done. I get it. I bought that. I believed it. These two are awesome. Where I'm not so excited, though, or I'm not excited is the right word, but the Minbari.
[21:26] Minbari were a big deal in the pilot. They're apparently, you know, like they've got stuff figured out. They're the ideal. But to me, Delenn, Delenn's makeup, so much better. Totally agree. But she kind of just seemed lost through most of this episode, except for one point. She wasn't a part of this episode, honestly, except for that end chuckle ha ha moment. Outside of that, she just wasn't in this episode. I got to talk about it. So I'm going to talk about a cool thing she did, but I'm saving that for a later part of the episode. But in that piece with Garibaldi, she's literally eating popcorn and she's never seen food. That whole scene made me just think, is she an idiot? This is ridiculous. I don't know. Really bothered me. And the whole thing with Garibaldi, he's in the elevator with Talia, and he's like, hey, why don't you want to head back to my quarters and see my favorite thing in the universe.
[22:21] What? How did she not just punch him in the face right there? Right. Well, I mean, unless she has the hots for him and it's not an unwelcome pass. Because he does stop and go, okay, well, fine. It's my second favorite thing. Yeah. The other thing. So maybe, maybe, I don't know. I just, I felt that whole thing was like this really weird shoehorn attempt to be like, hey, here's some personality for Garibaldi. But instead, like, I don't know, between like that whole thing and then it being watching Duck Dodgers with the Len. I don't know. I mean, I hope we get a little more who he is because that I didn't like. You're right. That that whole piece definitely felt very.
[23:02] That's a good word. Shoehorned in. Yeah. That like it's like they're going, OK, wait, I need something. I need something to close out the episode. Turn it a little more lighthearted before we get to the dun dun dun at the end. And, and this is what they put in there and they seeded it early with this, with this joke. And it just, you know, I, I did comedy for a while. Sometimes jokes don't land and you try them and they just don't land. And this one just didn't land, you know, cause it, it turned out more creepy than it did funny. Yeah. Let's just, can we talk? I said it earlier and I just want to talk unless you don't want to talk about it right now on a critical side. I know lots of shows in their first season have really bad acting because we haven't figured out the character yet. The actors haven't figured out the character yet. The writers haven't. They're all so whatever. But where he was laughing at this whole Duck Dodgers thing at the end, it was so over the top.
[23:55] So bad. You've done comedy. You've done set up for shows. I've done TV. Like we've been around the block a couple times. But that whole scene read to me between Dylan and the popcorn thing between his over the top laughing. That was like the 30 second take of that whole thing and they're just like we're done and somebody finally the director somebody just i mean mercy killed the whole thing like that's it print we're done yeah hoof i mean i can't imagine what the other 31 takes i mean there had to have been something better that was terrible yeah i have two other big thoughts on this one i wanted to touch on one is on the centauri and narn piece well really the centauri as a whole are we going to We can talk about their hair. We can talk about their hair. Let's pull the hair into this because, okay, here's the thing. How? How were the Centauri the overlords of the entire galaxy?
[24:52] Londo, Londo's got some fire. It's a PR. It was a PR thing, you know, public relations. Right, yeah. No, I don't know what it was because we meet, what's his name? Virkato? Virkoto? The assistant? Yeah. Is that his name? Yeah, I think it was something like that. Yeah, this is about it. I'm going to call him LeFou, by the way. OK, I like that because he is LeFou to me from now on. He's he's as close to three stooges slapstick as we get. Like it was just over the top. Ridiculous. And all I'm doing is watching him thinking how how did they take over the galaxy with this? Yeah. Is he the exception? Right. Are the other ones like Londo? Are they pretty hardcore? Do they have the big the big hair in there? Or are they like little Veer Cotto and then John Mulaney, his nephew with the little hair, that are just like, yeah, we wanted the Narn to help us. And I know you believe what I'm – I don't know. I didn't buy them at all. Yeah, they –.
[25:53] I'm a little on the fluffier side, Jeff, for those out there listening who can't visually see me. And I always have a problem when shows take the big guy and make them the stooge. It's so overdone. Okay, it was 1994. That's what they did all the time back then. But they still do it today.
[26:14] I wanted better for his assistant because he really was more of a cartoon than he was a believable thing. Now, the other guy, the nephew that we saw on TV, I mean, guys, that was in your face, 1994. Let's talk about a hostage situation where we're going to force you to read a prepared statement that isn't true at all, and everybody should be able to read right through it. But to be fair on that, I mean, I make fun of him. He looks just like John Mulaney. But also, the actor did a great job. His eyes like he looks he has that hostage look like I'm reading this I'm cool but also, dear God please help me he did a great job in that read yeah he really did and but I do have to talk about the hair though okay because this is this was bugging me like it was just bugging me okay is this just how their hair gets styled and everybody on that world styles their hair the same way or is this part of their physical makeup that the hair just that is it even hair like yeah is it's just are they unleashing a can of hairspray a day on their head like what is going on because.
[27:30] I've seen some wild haircuts in my life and I'm cool with a lot of haircuts, but when everybody has the same, we've seen, we've seen sci-fi before. I'll give you this one, right? I mean, every single Vulcan, Romulan, et cetera, pretty much has the exact same haircut.
[27:45] Klingons and all of them. Yeah. It turns into this. We meet one person from the world and then they become the prototype for a monoculture throughout the whole world. And like here on earth, we are not a model culture you you we can't you can't even take a single race of people here on earth and say what are all of your people like well i don't know what they're like here's what i'm like did you know so i don't know you ever play the video game mass effect no oh my gosh brent so good it's my favorite set of video games ever but they actually address that and i won't go into a deep dive but there's basically this uh this robot race that comes through to wipe out all organic life um this might sound familiar if you watched a specific first season of an episode of a season on paramount plus see how i danced around that, just uh but yeah so they can wipe out all life but they talk about how they specifically go after humanity because humanity has so much more diversity in it than all the other cultures across the galaxy the other galaxies even in the video game are pretty monoculturistic but you know humanity has all these different cultures and so we really are going to focus on them and their dna on their only franchise I've ever seen really address that. There you go. But my question was Vidal Sassoon a Centauri. Like, is that where it, is that where it started? Right? Like, you know, we, we are the Centauri. We rule the galaxy and we rule it through moose.
[29:13] Jeff, I'm not sure that there's people out there who know what Vidal Sassoon is. I don't know. Yeah. Well, maybe there's, it's gotta be one or two. That's a two percenter right there. I'm hitting you, hitting you hard. All right. Well, I can't get off of talking about Londo the real quick. If Londo and Jakar got into a real fight, Jakar would mop the floor with Londo. I mean, I don't know what that was that they did in the cafe or whatever, but if that was real life, Jakar is putting this guy onto the floor in one shot. About three years after this episode aired, there was an episode of WCW Monday Nitro where Kevin Nash took on Rey Mysterio Jr. and this is pre-world championship Rey Mysterio Jr. He literally, they fight in the ring he takes him out back and they show the production trucks. Kevin Nash almost 7 foot tall dude, takes Rey Mysterio about 5'2", 5'4", whatever picks him up, lawn darts him right into the side of this production truck and he just crumples. That look it up on YouTube. Kevin Nash, Rey Mysterio Jr. That is what Jakar and Londo would look like.
[30:22] Right? And then And so they got into a full-on fight right in the middle of everybody. And the whole thing that happened was, oops, sorry, Commander. Yeah. Like, where's station security? Like, this is not okay behavior. Because here, I think, comes the other piece that I now have a big question about. This station is supposed to be the last best hope for peace in the galaxy. Yeah. These guys are not here for peace. It doesn't seem like they don't seem anyway. Why are they here? If you're not here to try and at least preserve the peace, then what are you doing here? Yeah. Because like Londo, Londo took this way too personal. I get his nephew was out there, but he, this was personal to him and your car is sitting back there. Like I'll, what did you say? I'll turn your bones into a flute. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, dude, like these guys, And the Mimbari is just sitting there like whatever. And then they go to Kosh, who that whole scene was great.
[31:24] And I'm going to have to talk about what Kosh looks like in another episode because I've already used all my references. I only have one left, and we still have a little bit to go over here. Yeah, but anyway, he looks like a particular character of a bodiless form. That was kind of neat to see. But, you know, Sinclair, or he tells Sinclair, he's like, yeah, you should just let them pass. And he's like, who, the Narn or the Centauri? and he goes yeah yeah yeah he's like both yes just just let him do their thing just let him go yeah but again why why are we here and then you get into the into the the council chamber and okay there's the five races right there's the narn the centauri the earthlings the minbari and then whatever the heck cautious yeah i forget like whatever they are but then there's like these like lizard people and like other the are those the non-aligned world i think so actually a part of this is that what the idea it's basically quite clear the galactic senate from star wars that sits over in the peanut gallery but it's they get a galactic extras yeah you know pretty much yeah yeah you'll fit show you'll fit this mask you won't get a line but you just sit right there and fill up the room right that's all we need you to do this guy who looks like looks like a lizard is going to ask for a second on emotion you just raise your hand that's that's your direction go But don't say anything because then we have to pay you more.
[32:42] So you need a union if you say something and I don't want to pay you. But you nailed it. Like we're here for the last best hope for galactic peace, but we're not only going to like have our people attack your colony, your agricultural colony. Like we're not going to go to war. We're going to go over easy pickings, but we're going to pick out fistfights in front of everybody. There's, we're going to make open threats to what we're going to do. So what, what is the point? And, and I think more than that, who's, who's driving this, whose last best hope is this i don't think it's the centauries or the narns they don't seem to care about peace at all yeah i mean lando he's there he's like i guarantee there will be a war if it's the last thing i do i guarantee he straight up tries to assassinate jakar like he goes right after him okay can we again talk about station security how did he get all those pieces in there well i i can buy that that stuff that happens right i guess maybe in sci-fi tv shows maybe in like orange is the new black you know and some other stuff and you know i don't know i i bought that in there but but but i think that speaks to your point you don't sneak all those pieces in if you're truly there to advocate and fight for peace yeah right yeah you don't have it hidden in the bottom of your lamp and over in your shoe. And then under the table leg of your coffee table or wherever he pulled all those pieces. Yeah.
[34:08] But I think, and to tie that to my last thought, like, so we know that the Narn and the Centauri aren't into peace, but I question earth's dedication to peace. And there's two things in this that make me question it. One, they're going to go vote. The council is going to vote on potential sanctions or actions against the Narn for this. They straight up tell Sinclair nothing we are to remain neutral and Sinclair's like if we remain neutral that's gonna turn into more of a war like they're gonna attack each other we can't do yep just stay neutral and then double that it's the why no but it's the why yeah like we would get involved with it but we're about to have an election I would say something if we weren't having election but we're about to have an election so we're gonna stay neutral we're not gonna get involved and to me that's the thing too is the election and maybe I'm picking up on something here that's nothing, but they kind of made a point, like the whole election thing happened for the most part in the background. Like it was happening, they'd have a question, you know, of each other. Oh, who are you going to vote for? There's the back and forth between Ivanova and Sinclair. And then, you know, Garibaldi, oh, I got to go vote. But at the end, they're like, hey, here's the winner. Just in a newscast in the background. But they made sure you clearly heard. And his platform was preserving Earth's cultures.
[35:22] Yeah. Which gave me a real like, I mean, we've seen this in so much sci-fi, right? Where like, you know, Earth first, humanity overall. Is that President Santiago? Or am I just reading too much into part of a platform? I mean, there is a place, I think if I see, you talk about like holding up a mirror.
[35:44] And there are definitely places on earth. There are cultures where their culture is getting effectively wiped out because of attrition of that race of people, be it because of intermarrying, because they're getting sick and dying, or whatever. There is an attrition of various cultures, and you're like, man, we need to preserve these cultures. Specifically i think of native america absolutely due to colonization there completely if we weren't intentionally preserving their cultures they would exactly and then and i can't imagine what's going on with say i don't know the tribes of africa or south america you know that uh or and i don't i don't even know what's around the rest of the world like i don't know what's in asia like i don't even know what's really in in uh europe or anything like that like like i just i don't know But I think of those, right? Like we got to preserve those cultures. And like I even here in America where we have various cultures and various races and there is this beautiful aspect of all these different cultures. But I remember being in Puerto Rico a couple of years ago and I saw like I was talking to a guy who like looked like a typical Hispanic. And a guy walked in who was very clearly like this dude was black. Like he had some mix in him somewhere, but this dude was black.
[37:05] Those two guys were brothers. Wow. And I was like, like, I was just shocked. And like, I've heard of stuff like this before. I've never seen it. And like, I asked the guy, I was like, wait, is he like really your brother? Did you just call him that? He's like, oh, no, no, no. He's, he's my brother. They had the same, same mom and dad. And I went, huh, how does that work? And he just said, well, because here on the island in Puerto Rico, we had all these different people come in and over the years we've all intermarried and there is no like because dude comes in speaking spanish and everything like there is no separate cultures here we are all one people yeah and like for the first time i like i like there is a beauty in preserving all of these cultures and not losing the culture there's also a great unity in in melding it together somehow to where like what he was saying was on the island of Puerto Rico.
[38:00] Between the people who live there racism doesn't really exist because they're Puerto Ricans right because everybody it doesn't matter like everybody has a brother or a sister who's a different color skin than you are but it's still your brother because of everybody is so homogenized down there but they're still like I don't know how we do both how do you maintain the beauty of the individual pieces of the culture so we don't lose that but we get rid of racism yeah no i think you know and i think that's what we're exploring as a society right now this is an entirely separate podcast we could do and i'm really excited to do it to be honest but maybe that's what the earth president santiago is going for here right where i heard it said once that um we achieve unity through diversity and that really was profound to me because you know i grew up, In the early 90s, around the time this came out, where we had really started shifting from the concept in the United States of being a melting pot into embracing multiculturalism.
[39:00] And now we're moving further into recognizing diversity, equity, inclusion and building towards being welcoming for all. And it's just this progression as we get smarter and we learn things. And maybe, maybe, maybe with this Santiago thing is, is that we're going to preserve Earth's culture as part of the greater universal or galactic, you know, peace so that we can hold on to what makes us what we are, but still be a part of it. But also, this is 94. So is this, you know, we're going to preserve Earth's culture at the expense of other cultures. I guess that's the thing, right? Is it preserve the culture to meld and become a part of and enhance it and enrich? Or is it about taking away from? You know, I don't know that the show's ever really going to explore exactly what's going on back on Earth because the name of the show is Babylon 5. True. Not Earth in the future.
[39:52] But it does make me wonder to that point, what is happening with Earth's cultures? Because that's what they said, preserving Earth, not Earth culture, said preserving Earth's cultures. And it referred to the American state and the Russian state and the Chinese state. It referred to these, what we think of as countries is now states. So there is a unity among Earth. And so is this because alien species are now coming in and that's intermixing? And again, you're losing those cultures. Is it because we're now experiment? We're not experiment. We're exploring and we're interacting with the rest of the galaxy. And we're like, hey, I like the clothes that are there people on Earth who are taking a can of hairspray to their hair and flipping it up like the Centauri. Right. You know, and that's become the new style. Like, are these things beginning to infiltrate into Earth societies and therefore we're losing those things which make each culture what they were? Or is it just because the Earth is? Now we're now unified as a, as a world, which would be awesome, I think.
[40:57] But because of that, now we're all mixed in kind of like the Puerto Rico thing. We're all in our intermixing, which is good because it helps to end racism. But the negative side of that is, is you tend to lose the individualities and the beautiful diversity of the cultures that exist. Like, is that what's going on? Or is it alien infiltration? Is it some mixture of the two? I don't know that we'll ever explore that. But it makes me kind of wonder what is going back on Earth. And you're very right. They definitely clearly let you hear that one part of the broadcast. Yeah. Like, it's a thing. It makes it stand out. It's a thing. I don't know what the thing is. Or there's people out there who've watched the show who are like, you guys are way off base. This is not. Like, literally, my favorite thing about this whole podcast we're doing is just the people who are going to be freaking out so awesome. Just like, you don't understand. Yeah, we don't. Well, we were bad talking Yvonne Vuff earlier. It's like, oh, they replaced the ethnic girl with the white girl. Like, yeah, but she's awesome. She's the best character. Or maybe Takashima comes back and they're like, you just wait. It's going to be Takashima 2 with revenge, right?
[42:02] Bring Takashima back. Yeah, all about that. Bring her back. Oh, yeah. All right, Jeff. Well, I think that's about it for Midnight on the Firing Line. So why don't we kind of boil it all down and let's see if this show has any of that Star Trek-y quality. We've already talked about it to some point. Is there some big deep moral message to the actual story? Because the story was Centauri and Narn going at it. I feel like most of the other stuff we danced around the outskirts of it. Was there anything there that gives us hope for the future? It holds up a mirror to society. Maybe there's a message. I'll toss it over to you first.
[42:42] Is this episode of Babylon five star Trek or not? So I think it is in there. And I think it is based on one line that Dylan drops during the council meeting in there. So Dylan, we've talked about just, I mean, she's kind of a little on this, on the periphery of everything. And then isn't that just awful, awful scene that ends the episode but they're they're debating in the council scene whether to sanction the Narn in this and Jakar is making the point that this Ragesh III this colony was Narn before and then during the big Centauri Narn war where the Centauri enslaved the Narn and drove them almost to extinction now they're going to get it back well Dillon points out this has been Centauri land, territory, whatever, for a hundred years.
[43:33] So at what point is enough enough? When has enough blood been spilled? So it was Narn, then the Centauri took it, then the Narn take it back. The Centauri are totally going to come take it back, back and forth. So when is enough enough? And I think that is a beautiful message from Star Trek. Yeah, we're battling over a thing. We're killing each other. When will enough enough? Be enough but that said i enjoyed this episode all in all especially after like the progression from this to from the gathering to this i think was great it was a good reintroduction of the show you know a year later it was a year later in real life as well right i think it added a lot to the characters compared to what we had before like i want to be clear there's a lot more to add but it It added more to what we had. But I don't.
[44:25] This is, as you said, very much a season one episode. And in sci-fi, especially sci-fi from the 90s, season one generally means not the best in there. I don't think I would watch this one again. And how does this sound? On a scale, tell me if you don't like this or not, but on a scale of zero to five deltas, I'm going to rate this bad boy, maybe. Wait, does that count? No, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. No, because we're done with the discussion, so we'll call that done. Zero to five deltas. How Star Trek is this episode? I'm going to give this, wow, two, I think. Two deltas.
[45:05] I would agree with your closing comments about Dillon's final line.
[45:12] Or not her final line, but that line wasn't her final line. Sorry, but I would I would agree with that line of when is enough enough if they leaned into it at all. And if it actually made a difference in how the show came out, even if they left it unresolved, I'd be OK with that. But if it actually had made a difference, then I think I would agree with you, Jeff. But I actually am going to disagree with you on that because I don't think it was. That they it's like they're they're scratching on the door of it they didn't quite kick it in yeah i can see um but i think we are in agreement that this is an episode one a season a season one episode as we've said i think so many times but one of the things about those season one season two episodes in sci-fi is occasionally you come across one that is just good enough to keep you watching like it may not be great occasionally you might come across a great one like oh okay for, season one or not that was a good episode right yeah that was the only one from the whole season but that was a great episode we got i might get this one for you right we get conspiracy.
[46:19] Right in the next generation totally yeah there you go season one it's right there and go yeah yeah yeah and uh so sometimes you get those episodes but then you get other episodes, that are not great, but good, that kind of make you go, okay, I can keep watching the show. And then you get ones that are like, okay, if I have to keep watching the show, I'm going to, this show needs to get better because I'm going to lose it. And then you get that one episode that draws you back and makes it. That was this episode to me. One of those episodes that I liked it, like you, I enjoyed it. This is not an episode I'm ever going to sit down and say, let's watch Midnight on the Firing Line again. I got 45 minutes to kill. I'm probably only ever watching this episode again. If I'm doing another rewatch of the whole series. Yeah, that makes sense. That's probably about the only time you're going to have me watching the show again. So, yeah, I'll leave it there. On a scale of zero to five deltas, how Star Trek is this? You said two. I'm going to go with one. I was going to say, with your explanation, I'm feeling I'm pretty generous there. Yeah, I'm going to go with one. And that really, I think, is just going to go because there are things that are in it, particularly that talk about Psycor.
[47:28] Yeah. And I love your reference about the Mimbari. I don't think we delved into that a whole lot, although we kind of did with the whole cultures thing because it's part of it. Again, that can apply to that conversation as well. But the rest of it was just very weird. And, you know, who the heck is our captain? Yeah. I know nothing about our captain. That bothers me now more than it did when we started recording this episode. So I'm going to give it one Delta. Not very Star Trek, but not. I mean, zero is still a number. Yeah. And I gave it more than that. So that's where I am. I like it. Well, hey, that is midnight on the firing line for us. So the next episode, and I think we've got to be really clear with people how we're doing this whole thing. There's the version of this where we go and pre-research things and get ready. That is not what this podcast is. So literally we just, like, at an hour before we did this, watched Midnight on the Firing Line, took some notes, came here. We're going to do the same thing with every episode. I look up the name of the episode, and that's what we got. So next we're going to have soul hunter. And I had this idea. What if we, let's just take a guess. Right. And then maybe we kind of see how close or far off we were. So what do you take a guess at what do you think? Take a guess at what? What do you think the episode is going to be about?
[48:44] So I didn't like, cause you're right. Cause I didn't read like the blurb that honestly never really tells you what the episode's about anyway, but okay. Soul hunter. Um, I don't feel like, I don't, I feel like it'd be too on the nose if this was actually talking about like a soul, like a spirit, like somebody hunting souls and spirits. That almost seems way too like, like we couldn't come up with a better name. So I want to say soul is probably something like, is it one word or is it two words? It's two words, soul, hunter. Two words, okay. Yeah. So I'm going to say soul, like, I wonder if it's like a gem or something like that. And somebody's like, it's a treasure hunt kind of a thing. Oh, okay. and somebody like I'm probably just stretching just because I don't want it to be a soul that somebody's hunting I'm going to come suck your soul out of your body.
[49:34] It'd be ridiculous you know right I think yes it would be ridiculous but let's be fair it's still season one it's true my guess my hope we got a little glimpse a little more of a glimpse into Centauri and the Narn here I'm hoping and I'm just guessing here maybe we get a little bit about kosh and his are going to go in and maybe they're deeply spiritual um race of people or something because that moment we get of him in this episode like that was some profound that was very zen right so well i mean okay so so like you think of like uh they're called the vorlon the vorlon there you go the like like vision quests and stuff like that maybe you're like a hunt like your soul is a hunt like i'm gonna go do i don't know maybe it's something like that. I don't know. We'll find out. Find out next week. Because we're going to press stop here and we're going to go watch the episode. Exactly. Well, hey, everybody. For next week. Thank you so much for joining us as we watch Babylon 5 for the first time. Don't forget, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you are an Apple Podcast user, we would love for you to leave us a rating and review. If you're not an Apple Podcast user, that's cool. Give us a star. Give us a thumbs up. Give us a whatever it is in the app that you're listening to. So until next time, Live long and prosper. Jeff, Jeff, Jeff.
[50:55] This is not a Star Trek podcast. Not a Star Trek podcast. That's going to take some time to remember that. Yikes. Yeah. This is my first time.
[51:05] Music.
[51:12] And now that we both know what we thought about this one the first time, join us tomorrow right here for Babylon 5. for the second time.
