[0:00] You can only watch it for the first time once. It'll be interesting to see what we catch and what we do. You ever played the video game Mass Effect? This is where Babylon 5 is becoming Babylon 5. That was great. I love that. 100% completely accurate, definitive ranking of Babylon. I love it so much. We're officially into it, Jeff. The year is 2025. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5, for the second time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, paying attention to all the things that we didn't know about or catch the first time around. but don't worry we are still doing that thing we do.[1:01] Doing that thing you do thank you uh we are still searching for those sci-fi messages that we find in this series you know we're asking what is this episode trying to tell us this time around what do we pick up that maybe we missed the last time is there are is there any mirror to society that it's holding up are there any messages that things can be better in the future is it telling as how to be better human beings to one another, all of that sort of stuff. Now, all of that being said, Jeff and I have seen this episode. This is the second time around, which means for us from this point forward, everything is fair game. Everything from anything, from any episode to season, extra source material, any part from any part of the timeline through anywhere in the Babylon 5 universe or outside of the metaverse is fair game. So consider this your spoiler warning. If you have not seen Babylon 5 yet, stop right now. We'd normally say keep going, but we're going to tell you stop. Join us for Babylon 5 for the first time. And when you're done with that, come catch up with us here at the second time.[2:05] We have a long one today, Brent. We're watching A Voice in the Wilderness Parts 1 and 2 in this one episode. We didn't know anything about this the first time we watched it, right? So when we watch it this time, we're going to be looking for all the little things they dropped or the cool little nuggets that we missed.[2:23] Do you remember, though, what you thought about this the first time we watched it i i do um what what i remember more about what i remember more about this episode than the content contained within it was the controversy over whether or not you got over whether or not you and i should have watched this together as one big episode or whether we should have done it as two separate episodes i think we wound up choosing correctly for the first watch was to watch them separately but we said back then and i think we're continuing to choose correctly now everything going forward they will be combined as one watch uh so that's my main memory honestly from this particular episode uh now that said this episode makes me angry okay it does it makes me angry tell me because they're huh tell me more about that well there are two huge things jeff that we're not only introduced to but it the the set of episodes centers around these two things and that's drawl and the great machine down on epsilon three these are two things that i am so bad we're not a bigger part of the story overall i told you guys this is a this is full and i hear what you got well it's where zethro did his thing and he made the little things and And it's what all they wound up using it for was a big giant ass antenna.[3:49] Yep. That was it. Voice of the resistance. That was it.[3:54] This was a thing that Sheridan said, I'm going to keep this in my back pocket. JMS, you cannot tell me you're going to keep it in the back pocket if you don't pull it out of your back pocket by the end. Cannot do it. Listen, you talk about the gun. If you're going to shoot a gun in Act 3, you need to see the gun in Act 1. And if you see a gun in Act 1, you got to shoot it by Act 3, Scene 2. You showed us the gun you brought it back up again you never shot the gun you never shot the gun so anyway now that being said i also remember really liking this episode in my ignorance not knowing all of that right my memory looking back on it this episode pisses me off but at the first time i really like this one and so i'm really interested to see if a second watch kind of calms me down a, You know what I mean? Like now that I know what turns out, how it turns out, you know what I mean? So that's my, when I think back on this episode, that's what I get. How about you, Jeff? I remember not feeling that strongly about the, the, the letdown of it never being used over in our council chambers chat, our council chambers, uh, subscribers to our Patreon are invited to join us for our recordings. Awesome. They do.[5:10] Super cool. but uh trey in there says that uh thought it would have been a good telepath problem solver and get them off of babylon 5 tell them surface only and draw can keep them you know in line and from being psych or there's so many things this could have been and it was nothing so there's that but i loved this episode i remember loving it a lot but not necessarily because of the story but because of the character stuff. I loved Delenn and Drawl. I loved what we got out of Londo being like this real, you know, cool pilot who could do awesome stuff. I remember getting to the end of part one and actually being excited to go see what happened in part two.[5:53] I really enjoyed it, the first part, quite a bit. I felt that in part two that being a two-parter was entirely unnecessary. Necessary i thought that this was just like maybe a 52 minute long episode that they stretched into an hour and a half and i don't remember much about the second part at all interesting it's interesting you don't remember because you know what jeff hmm i know you do at least i know what you said on our first watch i i don't know that i'm not inside your brain i don't really know.[6:25] What you were thinking but i know what you said would you like to know some of the things that we talked about our first time around watching this yes very much so uh let's see here um well you you really really really wanted to not see draw actually go out to the sea okay like particularly going from part one to part two like he's gonna go out to see which was a euphemism for going out and dying right like that's what we kind of said it would be um you wanted more of him into lynn in the story unfortunately you would get a little like two more episodes that sort of kind of featured it you also uh somehow brought oh you you compared this a lot to mars attacks okay and you called that movie an absolute classic one i still have not seen oh my god you that's what you said the first time that's what you said the first time it's a crime that is a crime right adding it to the list yeah you're on the list you just made the list uh you had a new theory though Jeff got the red string out you had a new theory you had a theory that Psycor has a not so secret base near the fighting that's happening on Mars.[7:35] And that they were telepathically fueling the rebellion on Mars, that they were the ones trying to get everybody, you know, get everybody, buddy psyched up. Okay.[7:43] I had a few things. I, I, a thousand percent, I nailed it. And I don't know how anybody else couldn't have nailed it because to me, it was so obvious. I called that draw was going to become the battery at the end of part two. Okay.[7:56] They just, yes, just, that's what he was going to be. Like it was, it was all over the place. I pointed out the difference in the head bones on the on the minbari we didn't know that they were bones yet at that point like we were like is it a is it like a ferengi headdress that they just throw back there because they don't look like bones they look like there's something just set on their head which is what they are in reality i had a philosophical question we never came back to jeff and whether you want to talk about it now or we want to save it for our after episode conversation because i feel like this is like or this becomes a a podcast episode of its own where we're just discussing babylon five in general okay okay but i i posited that sinclair ivanova and garibaldi were babylon five's version of the triumvirate man like in star trek you have kirk spock mccoy harry potter there's harry ron and hermione but you know and here is it sinclair ivanova and garibaldi and uh for those which the a person according to i guess freud it's freudian psychology is made up of three parts oh there's the ego the id and the super ego um and so like kirk spock mccoy each represented one of those three yeah right here for any each represented one of those three and we see this throughout a lot of fiction was this the case here does each one represent uh an id a super ego and an ego.[9:18] So I actually have some insight in that when we get to the next segment. Cool. Well, then let's talk about that there. I like that. Sounds like there may have been some insightful observations there. Sorry. I hope. Yeah, maybe. Okay. Sort of. Okay. Maybe not. And this is where you embarked on a personal mission, Jeff. Okay. You embarked on a personal mission to prove that my theory that Sinclair was part Mimbari was, was true. Yeah. Um, one, because you said that the, the guy who was the battery before drawl Verne Verne. Yeah. He actually looked or he appeared to Sinclair to Sinclair. And so that was a piece of evidence to you, but also that Sinclair could have been the one, the one to go in the machine. Oh, cause there was that whole thing. And so you really sat out on this, on this thing to prove that my theory was absolutely correct. Okay. From, I guess, was that last episode or a couple episodes ago? Well, yeah, the last episode. Yeah.[10:13] So look at that. Yeah. Mission accomplished, by the way. There you go. Now, Jeff, I listened to the episode. You had two episodes worth of research to do on your own regarding what JMS says about this episode. What'd you find out? Anything fun? In the first part, there are a ton. Like the JMS speaks section is miles long, but in a, in a moment that might be shocking to a lot of people, I think that the, uh, fandom that he was interacting with at the time got, I don't know, a little pedantic around things because like 90% of the comments are basically him being like, yeah, um, this is good TV and you show and don't tell like trying to explain. Yeah. I didn't say that because we showed this. So it was a lot of that, but he does say that Christopher Frankie, uh, gives one of his best scores in the, uh, in the season, in this episode, this was a thing I didn't know. We were aware or had heard.[11:07] That two episodes from now, the quality of mercy, he had written that in a feverish haze and has no memory of ever having written it. Yep. I've heard him say that. Yeah. Apparently he was also sick or like on the beginnings or whatever of that illness when this, when they wrote this and he wrote an entirely different two-parter stem to stern wrote the whole thing. Yeah. As soon as he was done, he's like, Oh, this isn't good. And then he gave it to, you know.[11:33] Douglas and everybody else to look at and they were like yeah this isn't good so he put his head down wrote an entirely different two-parter wow and what we see on screen is basically an acting of the first draft of that script because he didn't have time necessarily to refine it and do a bunch of stuff wow exactly okay interesting interesting from go this was intended to be a two-parter not necessarily because of the scope and breadth of the story but because two-parters sell really well on the international market oh and apparently this did japan germany you know they're all one of the things one of the things we know from 90s sci-fi is it was it was a rule every season had to have at least one two-parter yep now to me that always meant sweeps week we're always going to do that during sweeps week it's meant to boost your numbers and stuff right but that is just as good of a reason as any yeah i can think of makes total sense so the context around is it sinclair Garibaldi and Ivanova Garibaldi is the other side of the Londo coin okay he says uh it's an odd friendship almost grudging Londo has little to gain by cheering up Garibaldi except a drink maybe but he goes out of his way to do it because they're friends so he really wrote Garibaldi and Londo to be kind of the opposing forces and didn't put him in a system with Sinclair or Ivanova.[13:01] And then for part two, yeah, there's a ship that comes through called the Hyperion. And we had a big, we had a big discussion, Jeff, at the end of, of episode one. Yeah. As far as what was, remember this one ends like a jump ports opening or jump points opening. And then it opens and it show ends like that's the cliffhanger. It's like, who's coming through. And we had a lot of stuff. And when we saw it come through, we're like, oh, yep. Okay. Well, that kind of continues. Every note that he had was about the Hyperion. And it's basically i like it now now that i know what it is i like it's a good way to it it makes sense in the story but like our brains it was way higher than yeah it's like oh my god no but the the hyperion was a relic from the earth minbari war and he was really clear that we will never see this design of ship again for any practical reason or just pure story of this is a relic from the old war just the story this is an old ship it happened to be close hanging out in hyperspace. That's a weird thing to declare at such a point for any other reason other than it costs too much money to make in CG, so we're going to have to make something better, and here's the reason why we're never going to see it. It feels like there's got to be a real-world reason for that other than a story-based. My guess is it didn't look very good. A real-world reason that is perfectly acceptable.[14:21] Perfectly acceptable. But that's pretty much what JMS had to say on this two-parter.[14:26] So you really boiled that down, didn't you? I opened it up. I'm like, oh my God, this is good. And then it's like, nope, just correcting. Nope. Telling him how TV works. No arguing with this person over. Oh, here's a nugget. Here's a thing. Yeah. Boy, if you argue with JMS, he will come back at you. Uh-huh. Yeah. You know, I mean, it does not let people have their own opinions of stuff. He will come back at you. Well, it's not, this isn't a show to have opinions about. He told the story. It's fact like this is it. So JMS, I love you, dude. I really, I have so much respect for you, dude. It is, you're an amazing person for joining us for the first time. Welcome. We're super excited that you're here. Every episode is someone's first and you picked a, especially long one for your first time. So you get to really see, see the whole marathon in this episode, because what we're going to do is literally watch the episode. It's going to pop up here in a second. If you're watching us on YouTube, you're going to see the reaction video, right? Like the kind of cut up and copyright protected thing or whatever. So we honor the copyright and give JMS the do that he is due in the whole thing. If you want to see, though, the entire, the full unedited version of this episode, you can get that at patreon.com slash Babylon five. First, it's the number five in the word. First, there is a link in the show notes that will take you to that. And hey, listen, if you're listening to us on a podcasting app, you're going to hear that reaction.[15:54] And then we're going to catch up with you guys on the other side where we're going to share a couple more thoughts. We'll talk about any new messages we might have uncovered throughout the course of the show. So, Jeff, let's go watch an episode, man. Let's do it. Accessing file.[16:06] Here's the bad guy coming on the station first. Always. He even has the accent, doesn't he? I think he does. I'm a bad guy. Excuse me. Perhaps you might help me. I'm looking for Ambassador Delenn. Could you tell me where I might find her? Of course. This way. He has a kind voice and a kind face, but just like the way he comes on, totally bad guy.[16:31] Using miles in space, that's not something you see very often. Except for maximum depth. You know, these are people that I remember for some reason. Really? All that's like, in my head, we knew them from much later in the show. Yeah, they don't make it to much later in the show. Because it was the dawn of the third age. Ten years after the Earth-Minbari War. Shuttle one, shuttle one. Isn't this a lot of fun? How was that? All of our readouts blacked out for a second. This ain't here, Babylon Control. It was some kind of massive power surge, right off the scale. Confirmed. We'll send two Star Furies ASAP. Stand by. Don't go anywhere. Don't go anywhere. We could. Okay, we've got a while to wait. Who's got a deck of cards? That wasn't forced to.[17:19] Nice theme with the Star Furies coming out. Hey, that Star Fury was upside down. We were told that the planet we're orbiting is stable, safe, and uninhabited. Now it appears to be none of those things. Incorrect. We still don't know for sure if anyone's actually alive down there. Doesn't worry in the slightest. On the contrary, it scares the hell out of me. Yeah, he kind of looks like he just came back from exploring the ice planet Hoth. He does. Yeah, you know. That's a very rebel coat. I have some ideas.[17:48] And we will agree i love her trade route dang ambassador shikar is angry much of the time but even the greatest anger fades with time my dear ambassador delen i am sure that for you this is true but for shikar and his people they will do all that they can to destroy us until the universe itself decays and collapses you know those two things are not mutually exclusive in one place and hated all at the same time that hatred could fly across dozens of light years and reduce centauri prime to a ball of ash i want to talk about that yeah do it in regards because i was just thinking something go ahead yeah and jakar's arc right so she says you know it's the anger but the anger fades and then londo says if you put them all together and they're put their anger and their hate it would it would blow up the planet we see that play out where his anger does fade and he grows and he sees things differently and he becomes a religious figure. But the rest of the, the Narn for a long time, just so much hatred, you know, we think about them in, um, you know, in Cartagia's throne room and they're just like, let's kill everybody. Let's name a new car. Let's like Jakar guy and whatever. But it just really makes me think like that he, they just laid out the story, for Jakar and the Narn of.[19:07] Letting that anger fade. There's, there's a great line that Jakar says at some point where he says, my people can never forgive your people, but I can forgive you, you know?[19:21] And I think there's a, there's a great deal to discuss of the difference between an individual's anger and a societal anger, a mob think group think anger. Anger and it shows just how actually destructive group think can be yeah you know um i think every time we've encouraged group think and usually we talk about that within the confines of a fandom it's always destructive it's never constructive right like ever it's never let's go pick up all that garbage but even though but i think what it also shows talking about hope that things can be better in a future that actually you can get over your anger and not even get over. Anger can fade and that can be replaced. I'm going to bring out the word with forgiveness and with forgiveness comes freedom. The car and his people are trapped in a cage as long as they hold onto their anger, which they rightly hold. Yeah. They are very right to be angry. It's righteous. I'm not, i'm not negating that but as long as they hold on to it they are trapped in a cage and all of that literally leads to his planet i don't know what happens to centauri prime in the future getting he says reduced to a ball of ash not that far but it gets rocked but we see it burning.[20:44] And doesn't it burn for years decades yeah decades yeah something something yeah you don't You don't have to respond in kind. Ah, that's good too. There's a natural law. Physics tells us that for every action, there must be an equal and opposite reaction. They hate us, we hate them. They hate us back. But here's the thing. You started it. That's not opposite. Equal and opposite. Opposite would be you hate me. I don't hate you. That's opposite. So when you choose to meet hate with hate or anger with anger, you're defying physics. And that's not a good thing. I like where you're going with that. You're completely wrong. But I really like where you're going with that. I like the metaphor. I like what you're saying. Tell me more, though. How is that wrong? Opposite means opposite in direction. For physics right it's equal in magnitude opposite in direction um not uh uh because if i hate this way i have to hate that way to go in opposite directions if i turn around you see what i'm saying but but i like what you're saying no no no no i love what you're saying because it the it holds like it holds a lot of water right yeah yeah i'm not talking motion i'm talking emotion Love it. Yeah, keep saying it, buddy. Go. There you go. Do it. Here we are. We're not talking motion. These are the laws of emotion. Emotion. Ambassador. Take us to church, Jeffrey.[22:11] Jeffrey Gemstone laying it down. He will. Sooner or later. Oh, he will. Much later, but he will. Because the alternative is too terrible to consider. Without the hope that things will get better, that our inheritors will know a world that is fuller and richer than our own. Life is pointless. Good day, Commander. That's an interesting line. Okay, we can talk about this one. We're going to talk about that whole thing about without the hope that things are going to end up better, that our inheritors will know a world that is better and richer than their own life is pointless. That's an interesting conversation. We're going to have that at the end, Jeff. Yeah. Let's have this one right now. And evolution is vastly overrated. Yeah. What is that? I have to think that, so what is the purpose of evolution? I'm not the right guy to ask this question to, so go ahead. Well. I'll let you, I'll let you say. I also am not the right person. But I would say high level, it's to adapt to a changing environment. That sound fair? Yeah. I'm sure it's much more specific. I am not a scientist. But if we're not going to have a better place, what's the point of evolving? If we're just going to live in a place that's this or worse, the whole idea of evolution is a sham, really. I mean, does that make sense at all? I think we think of evolution and look at evolution in terms of humanity.[23:27] We see it play out in Star Trek. We see it play out here in Babylon 5. We evolve to a level of being of energy, a higher plane because it's better. But if it's not better, why would you want to evolve and be different? It already sucks. It's going to keep sucking. I'm trying to consider this in the context of what we're saying here.[23:48] Evolution is vastly overrated. Right? Life is pointless And evolution is vastly overrated Like Yeah.[23:59] I mean, there, I guess there's the idea evolution, evolution is meant for us to get better, right? Theory. Survival of the fittest. You mutate, you mutate for survival. And, and those, those fit mutations are the ones that come together and promote the species to, to move on. Right. And if you, if you can't have hope that that's going to happen later in the future, then why basically, I guess that's maybe it because what is, Ooh, here you go, Jeff. I got it. You're ready. Okay. Go back to your question. What is evolving? What is it? It means you're growing, you're getting better. You're not staying the same. You're changing. You're changing into something that is better and richer than what you were before. More complex. You're going from a single-celled organism to a multi, super-duper complex organism.[24:46] You can say that about society. You can say that about the evolution of anything, right?[24:52] And that the idea that that is what happens, that is vastly overrated. If, if we cannot have hope, basically what she says, hope without the hope, things will be better in the future. Our inherit that our inheritors will know a world that is richer and better than our own. Yeah.[25:09] Doesn't that, doesn't that also just call you to be a better person and to have a lasting impact, positive impact on your world? Like my gosh, when you think about it as a, as a, as a world, we're experiencing what they call the population crisis. There are uh entire societies and cultures that have essentially stopped reproducing i mean they're still reproducing but at a rate that's it's almost insignificant uh-huh and what you hear or i hear at least frequently is i can't bring a kid into this world you know like it's it's we're over populated resources are apparently scarce unless you're one of four people or whatever and so people are choosing to not procreate because we evolve generationally right you know like i don't i don't evolve a sixth finger overnight my kids and their kids and whatever evolve that that new thing and so i don't have hope it's going to be better so why bother yeah i i i like what ben and becky both say in our chat over here and says what's the point of evolving if we don't at least try to get better at least try if we're not at least trying and becky says yeah what's the point of surviving and passing on your genes if everything just gets worse, if I could add to what Becky said, or just stays the same. Yeah, which I think is worse.[26:26] Spock talks about this in the original series that when you do not change, you die. You cease to exist in any meaningful way if you're not changing.[26:37] This is not a conversation about parenting and whether or not people should have kids and make choices, whatever personal choices that they make. So I'll put a pin in this cause I've got a lot of thoughts based on stuff. You just said, okay, let's get back to our episode. Let's have that conversation sometime though. The signal seems to have diminished a little. I can't believe we didn't dive into that. Didn't, well, once our instruments didn't touch it, I was silver platter. What is the third principle of sense and life? Look how excited she is.[27:03] He is the third principle. What is the quickly? What is the third principle of sentient life draw incorrect i love the look on her face he's just so excited to see him so and it's so genuine right like this is the this is the kind of actor that mirror for lawn was and what we got in the end was just but yeah yeah incorrect answer the third principle of sentient life is the capacity for self-sacrifice the conscious ability to override evolution and self-preservation for a cause a friend wow wow override evolution which we were just told could be vastly overrated right right is the capacity for self-sacrifice what what did he say right before that he said something the the conscious ability there it is override evolution and self-preservation for a cause a friend a loved one that's that's i mean juxtapose those two conversations. And evolution will be vastly overrated. So Becky in the chest is a great thing. Sacrificing oneself for the good of society isn't against evolution. It helps the population survive. But what we're saying, I think, Brenton, tell me if I'm wrong, but if the third principle is the conscious ability to override evolution.[28:21] Self-sacrifice yourself for a thing, and there's no hope, then your sacrifice in exchange for evolution is overrated. Like that conscious choice you did is an overrated choice because you have no hope. It's not an over, it's not a wrong or overrated decision. It's the, it's the absence of hope that drives all of this. Yeah. Cause if you're, if you're not going to, if you're not going to have hope that things are going to be better in the future. Okay. Hello. Star Trek like messages right here. You ready? If you're not going to have hope that things are going to be better in the future, then why try? Why try? Why try? Why do that thing where, you know what? I'm going to sacrifice myself because this is going to make things better, right? What's the point for not going to be getting better or staying the same? I would, I would add to that, not just getting better, but also staying the same or getting worse. Like why even do this? If this is how we're going to go, if you have no hope. And I think this is one of the messages that we see time and time again. What is it that got the bajorans through the cardassian occupation hope hope what is it that got the rebellion through the time of emperor palpatine the force but also hope.[29:31] Right but that's that's what i mean like as long as you have hope have some what and jeff what movie is it it was not babylon five i don't think but it's where they were talking about as long as they have hope they're a threat as long as they have hope they're dangerous we have to crush their hope i know i've heard that i don't i don't think there's any one that's that's a thing it's hope is, is a, you've got to figure it's a uniquely, well, it's a uniquely unique trait of humanity. We talk about the power of love, right? That's, I mean, that's, that's pop culture. That's the zeitgeist to the power of love, but maybe the power of hope is so infinitely stronger. One of the goals of propaganda is to squash hope, make sure people know there's no hope. There's no chance of escape or chance of change or whatever. Kill that hope, you kill the populace. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think we have seen that played out so many times in our own lifetime. An outside observer just looking at it and going, you've lost hope. You've lost hope. You've lost, or do we really all still have hope? And I would sit here and maintain, hey, hold out hope. There's always hope.[30:44] If you ain't dead, there's hope. There's always hope. It is a commodity that never runs out and even if you are dead maybe you're dead because you had hope i have hope that'll be better and that's why i will exercise the third principle of sentience and sacrifice myself because i but then your inheritors have that hope because of what you've yeah i've seen it along there you go there you go i like it this is why we love draw and this is why it's such a gosh dang shame we didn't get more of him throughout the course of the time instead of in your warm quarters also he carries us through his brother theo or he comes back which is great Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Or we didn't get more Brother Theo. Yeah. I wanted so much more. I could take away Drawl and have Brother Theo. 100%. Yeah. Absolutely fine. To me, it's the same version. The sand will run red with Earth or Blood. Provision of an attack. Earth or Blood. I wonder what role number one is playing in this. Right?[31:37] Help me. So I feel like I brought this up the first time. Great pause. I thought it was good. Great pause. But I feel like I brought this up the first time we watched it. But understanding what Michael O'Hare was experiencing. Oh my word. I feel like this whole thing is pretty effed up. Yeah. Yeah. Our world is changing. I'm not sure when it began to change. Those dang kids. The death of Ducat. The rock and roll music. The darkness was there all along, and we refused to see it. If you're referring to the growing division between the religious and military castes. That and more than that, there is a sense that we are lost.[32:16] Yeah sheets and the temples you can hear it in their voices their manner you know what's so great about this what i really love about this and this is where our future knowledge like you and i will see over the course of the show how there's this idea of what the minbari should be you and i.[32:34] Instinctively know what the minbari are right yeah like we just do like we saw the lynn we saw how this goes we i know her not because she's the vulcan uh counterpart on this show that's not it we know what she's supposed to represent we know the the wisdom and the age and the the enlightenment right that these folks are supposed to represent but we also know that as we explore their society we get to know minbar a lot better we find out that that is not the case at all like they're actually pretty scummy yeah in a lot of ways but here's drawl saying this is what's happening like yeah we are supposed to be this but we're not anymore we've been this we've had this idea of who we are. And this is actually what's going on right now.[33:16] And I feel like I can relate. Well, a lot of it, when there's a relationship, whether it's a societal relationship, family, whatever, and there's not great stuff going on in it. And when times are good, that's fine. You can gloss over those things that aren't great or whatever. But as the pressure starts to come on, those flaws those gaps really amplify and get big and pretty soon that's all you can see and ever since the death of ducat and really for a while before that because the minbari were starting to just i mean we saw it in um in the beginning when they were you know joking on the the the rangers and stuff but the death of ducat really just like put that pressure cooker on society and all their racism and narcissism and just awfulness is oozing out and here's draw all, an emotional, loving man watching this happen and he's yearning.[34:14] For what we might call the good old days, right? But the reality is all that stink and awful was there the whole time. Now it's to the surface. Well, but that's the thing. Okay. There's, there is a difference when, okay. Yeah. All this stink and all this ugliness is here, but we've, we've, we've been able to deal with it. We, we, I don't want to just say push it down, but we've been able to handle it. Handle it. Now we're able to, now it's grown to such this case where it is right at the top and it's becoming uncontrollable. You and I have both talked about how we have thoughts, we have feelings, we have things that are innate with inside of us that are gross, disgusting, and awful. And because we're intelligent, smart, and somewhat enlightened adults, like we push that stuff down and go, no, we capture those thoughts is what we do. And we go, no, that's false. That's not good. And that's, that's bad. We're not going to do that. Right? Like we can do that as grown adults. Well, hopefully. Kind of this, hopefully. We can do that as emotionally intelligent people. There you go. There you go. So just the fact that it exists, I don't think is necessarily the bad thing. The fact that it has risen to this level and that it is spilling out and becoming the dominant trait, that's the bad thing. And that's what I think. I don't even think that it's bigger or anything. It's a proportion thing. When times are good, here's the stink, here's the good. We can cover the good or the bad, the stink, the whatever.[35:44] Gloss over have our little lies that we tell ourselves you're individually whatever that makes it all okay but when that just ramps up it's not that there's more of the stink it's that it's more apparent because now i can't those tools that i have the lies i can't tell myself anymore yeah too tired i'm too beaten up it's too much it's whatever and i think and there's some conversation in the chat like draw is talking about 2025 jeff's talking no i'm talking about basically like the last 6,000 to 9,000 years of human society. I mean, let's look to our brothers and sisters in the Middle East, you know? And I mean, they're going through hell right now, but also they always have. We get no point where they're not going through it. And so, yeah, I think this leads, though, to a point that Drawl's talking about where he's just like, I wish we could, it could be like it was. But I'm just countering that it was always like this, Drawl. Right. Just now you can see, and here's the good thing with it. When you can see it, you can do something about it. But when your lies work and society accepts the lies and everything, why bother doing anything about it? It's fine. Right. We have a little racism. That's all right. It's not a lot of racism, you know, it turns out, it turns out it is a lot. Right. So if it's a growing dissatisfaction, self-involved.[37:04] The needs of others it is not the same world in which i was born and where does that come from he just told us where that comes from or that anger and how that it comes from a self-involvement that puts your needs above that of others that's where it comes from yeah that's where it comes from when you start worrying about yourself and and being worried about everything having to do with you and you're not worried about society and about the world and looking beyond yourself and this is something you and i have said listen no matter where you are what side of the aisle what religion, whatever, be about something bigger than yourself.[37:34] Cause it's not about you. You know, if everything is focused on you and what you need to do and where you are, you're missing it. We've got to be a society that's about others. You have to take care of you so you can be about others, right? It's not about, it's not about self-sacrifice all the time. There's a Catholic mystic that I brought up on here a couple of times before father Richard Rohr, but he has this concept called the cosmic egg. And I was actually talking about this the other day. I kept calling at the great egg because I'm still, someday, someday that's going to pay off. But he uses the metaphor of the cosmic egg where the yolk is the me, the whites, the albumin is you, and the shell is everyone. And you need all three of those to work in concert to have a healthy egg. You have to be good. You and me have to be good. All of us have to be good. Okay. But what Dral is saying is we're just worried about the yolk right now. That's it. And that's a problem interesting i am going to the sea i don't want you to go to the sea no you're still too young to go to the sea there's so much you could do back home i don't know what good it would do and if you have a problem with anything we said the show said it not us right we're just amplifying it yeah amplifying we're just saying it on the side i hear the call of the stars.[38:58] Get your readings, make a low-altitude scan of the surface, and get out in one piece. We'll be monitoring your progress from C&C. Good. I work best with an audience. Anything else? Just one thing. Star Furies are designed for combat in space, not inside an atmosphere. Don't drop too low, or you're on your own. So one of the comments in the Lurker's Guide from JMS was somebody apparently was being like, You never told us why the Star Furies couldn't fly in the atmosphere. And he's like, I did. Ivanova said they can't. There you go. It's good enough reason. Good enough reason. Launch fighter escort.[39:35] There goes the theme again. I love it. Yeah. It's so good. This is Delta leader. Let's be a wick out there. Roger that Delta leader. I'm on his tail. Delta leader. That's what Keffer ends up coming in. Does he? I think he is a Delta wing. There's something down there coming our way fast. It's a missile. Yeah.[39:57] That's a really good rendering of the planet surface i said across her nose not up it, that wasn't the nose dude they are really getting some mileage out of that scene can you reach the shuttle so you almost wonder is it the same shot they just rotate it, wide angle firing pattern survey one to babylon control we're clear returning to base confirm survey one upon arrival you will report for debriefing and just one more thing on your trip back I'd like you to take the time to learn the Babylon 5 mantra Ivanova, And if this ever happens again, Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out. Babylon control out. The best part's right here. No, no. Right here. Civilians. Just kidding about that God part. No offense. That's it right there. Yeah, yeah. Although her looking over the shoulder, those people are like... Yeah, that was it. All our previous scans fail to show any life forms or any automatic systems on the surface of the planet or for a depth of two miles inside Epsilon 3. It's also a potential first contact situation. I'd say we pretty much have to go down there and check it out. Wouldn't you agree, Lieutenant Commander? Absolutely. He's like finding the reason where he's like, I want to go check this stuff out. How do I get it? Do you get it?[41:11] Get you yet? Ah, Mr. Garibaldi. Off duty, I see. My dear good friend. Mr. Garibaldi. Are you going to kiss him? Whatever it is. It can't be that bad. He should kiss him on the board. Lean in. Lean in! Try and kiss me and I'll break your arm. We're not that close, Mr. Garibaldi. At least they addressed it. Uh-huh. At least they addressed it. Leave it hanging. You know, it's actually a good word. Whatever it is, it can't be that bad. I woke up, I saw it in the light of day, sleeping against my arm. You looked as if you needed a friend. I did. Thanks. You're welcome. Now, I go to spread happiness through the rest of the station. It's a terrible responsibility, but I have learned to live with it. I like that attitude right there. Right? I'm going to go spread happiness to everybody out there. I can. It's a terrible responsibility, but I've learned to live with it. Somebody better pay for that drink. He got away with the drink.[42:20] Fondo's like, not it. We've got something. It's an opening, all right. Definitely artificial. Bring us in. Must be a Gould station. There's all those crystals running everything. Gravity 0.75. Oh, Jeffrey. You make me happy sometimes, my friend.[42:46] So now he's Indiana Jones. That's insane, yep. Well, if we throw enough rocks in there, the battery will run out eventually. Commander, how are we going to get out of here? Yeah. You've got an elevator. There goes Zathras. That was our first shot of Zathras on that elevator. And there goes Zathras 2. There's Zathras 4. And there's 8. Tell me about it. Way in seven. Incredible. A whole new area of technology. What's happening? Picking up seismic activity. It's a big one. Commander, get the hell out of there. You hear me? Clear out.[43:36] Please help me. At this point, is he just reaching out to anybody he can get in contact with? It must be. And you'd think that if he's there, he'd like light it. He's at Sinclair. He's at Londo. He's at Ivanova. Maybe light a path. Don't just sit here and say, please help me. Show me where to help. Right? I can't help you if you want help yourself. What exactly would you like from here? It's a pretty great-looking scene. Great-looking scene of the great machine. This is why, like, they always put lights in these helmets, like, for TV. And I get why for camera, but it just always looks so weird to me. It's like Mr. House. You said that the first time. You talked about that to some extent the first time. It's Mr. House from the video game or whatever. Fallout, New Vegas, one of the greatest. Yeah, that was it. That's exactly what it was. When we're about to do something stupid, we like to catalog the full extent of our stupidity. I remember this line. I loved it. Thanks for getting me out. But now the whole thing's going to fall apart because there's no power. Yeah, yeah, we're getting you. What's your situation? I want that med team at bay 14 in 10 minutes. I'll meet them there. Ah, Quoan! So JMS said this is one of the best soundtracks of the season. It's been like 80% the theme. Oh, yeah? What the hell?[45:04] What's it gonna be? I have to wait a whole week for this. Previously on Battle. Oh, no, we don't. No, we don't. All right, Jeff, as per our tradition, let's take a little breather. Let's reflect on this first episode before heading into the next one. Some thoughts that you maybe don't want to save until the very end, but just kind of coming out of this first episode. We had a lot to talk about. But we had a lot to talk about in the first episode. Why would we skip the first episode? Well, I'll tell you why there's so much in the first episode. So much to talk about, but you know what? It was boring. If you're watching it from a pure entertainment standpoint, I can, I can, it just kind of kept going. They're recycling scenes over and over, over again, just to like add time.[45:47] That sounds good. But it's doing the typical two-parter thing. The first episode is all set up, set up, set up. The second one is all execute, execute, execute. Like, it happens. But the stuff that they drop in this, I mean, this is a JMS episode, right? I don't know. I think so, but I don't know. It feels like it's a JMS episode. Like, it's just chock full of stuff, man, of stuff. Yeah, I think for the first time, an us viewing thing. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah, this is a JMS. he wrote it he wrote he wrote this one yeah but yeah there's a ton and it's not a bad like this isn't a bad episode and just like for um context sake because in our first viewing we ranked these separately i won't say where part two landed yet but part uh one was number 18 on the season for us i i don't doubt that this show had a surprisingly strong first season totally it really did for a 90s sci-fi show it really did so i'm not i'm not surprised that this would find itself in the the bottom of the middle of the pack you know um i just have to point out my own um genius here really quickly uh before we watched the episode i talked about how jms completely wrote a two-parter and then rewrote this one and then i'm like i don't know if jms wrote this or not.[47:08] Batting a thousand right here this is good oh my word oh my word what about you what about you what kind of other thoughts are you having i mean i feel you a hundred percent on it's a bit of a boring episode but there's just this is one of those episodes that makes you chew on it if you really study it the way you and i study if you allow yourself to study it the way you and i study episodes right this would be one of those episodes we talk about in star trek that maybe is not a really great episode but it's a really important episode and it's very, message heavy and i feel like they've set a lot of stuff up of of just i i mean the message of hope from garibaldi having to have hope that something's gonna good gonna happen with lease to draw and um uh delin with the piece they're talking about uh you know sinclair is just sinclair he's just moving through the action pieces right now yeah you know what i mean um and ivanova's, peak they can get awesome to watch this is peak of on of absolutely absolutely so.[48:13] Yeah from a from a from one standpoint yeah from another standpoint there's a lot of good stuff to really i mean what i say two three times this could be its own podcast episode if we were doing that it could be a couple of its own podcast episodes out of this really could really if we're going to peel off this piece or peel off that piece really could jeff we've got a whole other episode to watch we do it's an earth alliance heavy cruiser babylon controlled earth cruiser nothing personal mr wharf fire it won't fire sir oh ron canada i remember this dude.[48:46] What are you talking about that's captain ellis pierce we are assuming control over this situation we have assumed control i don't think it's a bad looking ship it's very small looking third age of mankind a whole new and potentially revolutionary technology based on what you describe the civilian and military potential is staggering imagine doing your job of it ourselves you write a report and all of a sudden people come in to just take over your job since this is neutral territory every race on this station is going to stake a claim to what you found down there enjoy the accommodations captain i'll do everything i can to make sure your stay here is a brief one is a brief one i like that i like that he dismisses the captain uh-huh he a commander dismisses the captain because he would outrank him here right exactly yeah he's the community officer ever since the war earth force command has been obsessed with getting their hands on new technology okay i kind of like the senator this run yeah i didn't like him the first time i kind of like him by president santiago that i had final authority over this sector it's the best I can do for now. Commander, I will be in touch. He does a good job showing that he's a man of power, but doesn't have a lot of power. Right, right. There's only so much he can actually do. Because you can't get near the planet's surface without a properly encoded jamming device. Why wasn't I informed? You didn't ask. I demand you turn over this jamming device at once. It's being repaired, but I'll see what I can do. Babylon, control out. I'll give you the raspberry.[50:15] No one gives me the raspberry. But he doesn't know that with luck it'll discourage him from sending any more ships down there until we finish working this out commander if that planet goes it'll, the hyperion can get out of the way we can't i'll take you in a lot more with it because there was still someone running the show yeah he brought back exactly as long as he remains unconscious the system keeps running on automatic heading towards self-destruct without anyone to stop it all right i've just realized something yeah i gotta save it to talk about at the end though okay but let's just say this is that moment for me where my respect for the show this episode has just gone from here to here all right okay okay uh-huh like beautiful oh oh oh i'm in love oh Oh.[50:56] Stay tuned to the end to find out what Brent's going on about. Here we go. So if we go down there, it blows. If we don't, it blows anyway, just a little later. It's a good thing I'm Russian. We're used to hopeless situations. More hope. Yeah. Oh, right? More hope. Yeah. Right? Ah, Lieutenant Commander. Michael, I need you sharp. You can't go off like that. Dammit, Jeff, what the hell am I supposed to do? Be a professional? I've never felt this helpless before. The one woman in my whole life who meant anything to me, and she's back on Mars. And I'm pretty sure him slamming that dude's face in the bar, He totally changed his opinion on Mars. The planet we're parked next to is about to look like a Roman candle. What am I supposed to do, huh? Arrest it? Mm-hmm.[51:33] If we have to evacuate, you know we'll never get everyone off the station. Nah, you're talking this way. Ambassadors, women and children, civilians go first. Some of the command staff will have to stay on board until... I'd appreciate it if you could make sure Ivanova gets on the last ship out. She'll want to stay, but she's got her whole career ahead of her. I love that he's looking out for her here. Mm-hmm. She'll be honored if I have to drug her and toss her in before the doors close. I mean, some of that's like she's the young one. Right. Don't let her be stupid. You know. This is totally where that triumvirate thoughts, those thoughts came from with stuff like that. Absolutely. I like that they're still flooding it with gas. Like, it's a cool look. I heard him call my name. I like that Delenn just ignores Franklin and does it anyway. Like, draw is one thing. Delenn's just like, whatever. I've got diplomatic immunity. You planet below do not let her destroy. Thank you. All right yoda and that tongue is weird to see like coming through that prosthetic mask.[52:33] There is this this might be one of the times where i'm like they could have done better on that makeup like usually babelon 5's makeup is stellar that one not so much it was really stiff land on the planet it will self-destruct commander it's not your decision get stank on that commander are you going to do shoot us down maybe yeah required to protect this station yes Lieutenant Commander, put Delta and Zeta flights on alert. Stand by for immediate launch. You can kiss your career goodbye. If you go down there, we're dead anyway. If you go down there, I'll be kissing more than my career goodbye. Mm-hmm. I'll be kissing my house goodbye. Open fighter bay doors. I do love how Pierce is just sitting there, like, just waiting to look judgy on the screen. Michael O'Hare can stare a brother down, can't he? Status. They're canceling in the launch. I mean, just like... I love Bruce Boxleitner. I love Bruce Boxleitner. We've got a ship coming through the jungle. I go a hair concern here now. Yeah, Ben's right. It does feel a little more Sheridan than it does Sinclair.[53:31] Cool looking ship. Give you ten of your hours to move aside. No cycles? We do not wish to kill. Impressive they can convert their time already. If you will not let us take what is ours. The signal was not meant for them, was put here to hide from them, given to me when the rest of my people died. Sacred trust, legacy, future. Okay, are we to understand that dude's people built the Great Machine? I don't think so. I was going to say, I thought the Great Machine was a lot older than just 500 years. And I think what Outkast guy was saying was, we've been looking for it. Not we built it, and we're coming back for it, but we've been looking for it because our dude is there. I think the builders of the Great Machine is on it. Mystery. What's your prognosis? He's dying. My guess is he's been dying for a while. That would explain the seismic disturbances. The more that he suffered, the more the system began to malfunction. But without him, the planet is dying. Because he and the machine are connected. Right?[54:45] He powers it. I'm told that you two were there when Varn regained consciousness. Commander, maybe you weren't paying attention. They've given us an ultimatum. Surrender or be destroyed. Together, we have the firepower. We can take them. Will you commit your forces to the battle? I don't see any other choice. We'll be ready when you are. It's like, I hate you two, but we'll do it. Call me as well. Right? I don't think you fully understand what Dral is asking of you. Of course I do. He's like, who doesn't know the third principle of sentient life? Amen.[55:18] That much is certain. As a young and foolish centaurian, I swore that I would die on my feet doing something noble and brave and futile. He's going to do that. Yes. Wow. Wow. That's amazing. Oh, my God. He's on his feet when he dies, right? He's on his feet. Jakar wraps his hands around his thing. He's doing something brave and noble. And totally futile. Totally futile. It is the third law of sentience, of self-sacrifice. Somebody mentioned earlier, we talked about applying those three laws to Londo. Yeah, to Londo, Sinclair, and Draw, but Londo specifically. Wow. Yeah, Ron brought that up. That's why he willingly took the keeper. That's why he waited patiently for Jakar. Yeah. Wow. Ah, so good. Tech says, Alex Lock asks, what do we mean by futile? Not him dying futile, but him accepting the keeper.[56:16] I mean, it was good, but it was also... It's too late. Three transports have already left, and one's about to get to the gate, and... Wait a minute. Babylon 5 is the story of a lot of money. 100%. He's the one who tells the story from the beginning of the gathering. I feel like this is the same actor that was the Narn, who flew the ship in and bounced it all around and blew a bunch of stuff up. Please stop your people! He's right. The transport's heading down to the planet. They've opened fire. Secondary gun array is targeting my ship. I like their ship. I'm launching fighters. Babylon 5, we need your support. Launch fighters. I wonder if we're going to see it again. Launch fighters.[56:58] That's so good. I love the launch sequence. After all this time, I love the launch. Whoever's piloting that shuttle's a madman. Yeah. Here we get a peek into Londo and an ability that we never see again. Yeah, right. Like, he's a pilot. The defense system isn't firing. He's letting them in. Look, I've got to do something, Jeff. Getting descent. Yeah, they have Varn on the ship. Catch them at maximum thrust. See if you can buy me some cover.[57:33] Engaging. What the hell are you two doing down here? All my life, I have searched for a way to serve others. To me, there is no higher calling, no greater destiny than to live for another, and if necessary, to die for another. To somehow make the world a better place. We're all right back where we started. Uh-huh. I mean, that's good writing. Yeah, right. You set this up to get to this. Looking for a reason. A way to live out my remaining years with direction and purpose. Here I have found him. I will save lives. The wonders of this place. I love missing John Shuck, but gosh, we missed something with this guy not being draw forward. Oh, I agree. But I think he does a good job staying in the spirit. Like, I can see him in my memory being a younger version of what we're seeing here. He was pretty. But I can see old school draw being that. Yeah, if all of a sudden he got young again. Exciting, isn't it? On the other side, enemy ships keeping us between them I am sending this message to all three parties Involved in the struggle for control of this planet Stop It belongs to none of you It belongs only to itself.[58:48] Stop. Stop. We're talking about how this thing was made, right? Somebody in a chat, I forget who it was. I want to say maybe Ben or somebody said that their headcanon is a Zathras built it after they went back in time. I've heard that. Right. That we've also, it was 500 years. World Without End does say the machine's only 500 years old and it really ought to be way older than that because it's supposed to be recording stuff that happens and stuff, right? Um what if jeff what if what if what if what if it actually comes from the future, oh it belongs to the future it itself is a thing from the future just saying secrets buried here must remain they would give any race an advantage over all others i feel like that's what the road home should have been about should gain exclusive the great machine that would have been really cool We entrust the safekeeping of this place. But you do the time-hoppy thing to go visit everybody. Yeah, you do the same thing, but just have it center around that. We rely on your guidance, Commander. Understand this. I will blow you up. The defensive systems on this world are now fully operation. Do not attempt to come here again. Somebody better get fierce on the link. Commander, the enemy ship is moving again. It's headed toward the planet. What, didn't they get the message? They got it, and I don't think they believed it. It's a little thing we like to call F around and find out. Right. A very Reaper-like shot.[1:00:11] We should know very soon if the machine has truly accepted him. Oh, so we're not done. I did not.[1:00:20] This could go south. Goodbye, dear friend. In the moment, Dral is the most sentient of all. Perhaps something. At the end, Londo is the most sentient of all. I may see you again. It'd be cool if you had a little smile. Just curl a little smile there. President Santiago confirms that you have primary jurisdiction over the Babylon Station and this sector of space. My regrets if I exceeded my authority. Apology accepted. Have a safe trip. Will do. Hyperion out. You know what I love about that? What's that? Under duress, they worked together. They collaborated. And now, still a little tongue-in-cheek, still a little bit, you know, a little miffed there.[1:01:00] Some respect. Sure. You know? Like, it's just, yeah. Just find that commonality so you can work together. Say what? Find that commonality so you can work together. What? Look, Lise, these relays get kind of weird, so we don't have a lot of time. I just wanted to say. Michael. Let me finish. Yeah, you don't want to finish, Michael. No. You know, one of the things I remember, I remember this the first time I talked about this and it sticks out to me just anytime someone says, uh, anytime somebody tries to interrupt you like that, you need to let them interrupt you. And when you say, no, no, no, let me finish. The other person is like, no, no, no, no, really? Cause I know where you're going to go with this. Stop. You need to know. I thought maybe we could work things out. If Michael probably, no, I can't off. It's the job. I'm married.[1:01:51] Your name is Franz. I'm glad for you. That's great. Excuse me while I put my lungs in the toilet over here. Yeah. I see you come here also to lose yourself into stars. It's quiet. This is where you'll be time to pay the piper. One thing I've discovered is that some things are better left buried. Hmm. Go ahead, Ambassador. Franz. By the hell kind of my name is Franz. Right. Oh, yeah. Nia's right. Getting Veer assigned to Minbar. Thank you. Sleep well.[1:02:25] In a way that has to be comforting, knowing he's down there when he was going to go off to sea. Right. It is. All right, Brent, Voice in the Wilderness, parts one and two. If you're still here with us, thank you for being here. This is a longer than usual, and we knocked out two episodes. And we, Brent, we talked a lot. And so I know we have a couple of things we wanted to save for this portion of the show. What do you got? I got one thing. All right. There might be some other things, but this is really the one thing. Jeff, I love this. I love this. Dr. Allen putting a lab coat here. I probably, I'm not going to pontificate here at all. All right. What i'm going to do is i'm going to revel in the genius that is j michael straczynski okay all right uh one thing i you and i both me particularly though have long criticized jms for is for introducing things and then not really doing much with them yeah you know like making their contribution to the overall story actually be rather minimal minimal you know one of those things has been the great machine one of those things has been the great egg.[1:03:41] A great egg absolutely uh one of those things has been organic tech like what is organic tech he never really explains what organic tech is we don't like yeah it's the thing where they get put into the ships and we know the vorlon do a thing and we know there's and and yeah the the white stars are kind of made of organic tech but they're just there like it's not really a thing like like Like, it should have, it just felt like it needed to be this much more in your face, upfront piece of the overall story. But also, what the hell is it, Jeff? Okay. You know what I realized at whatever point in this episode, I started going, oh my God, the great machine is organic tech. Okay.[1:04:24] Think about it. It's a machine combined with an organic being, and it needs that organic being to be controlled and to function. Okay, so it's very much like the shadow ships that need the human CPU. Yeah, and whatever the Borlaan thing is. Like, this thing is organic tech. By the time you and I are done watching this episode, we understand well enough how the great machine works. We understand that it requires a, I'm not going to say human being, but it requires a being, a sentient being. Yes, uh-huh. Okay. Being plugged in and that sentient being is just, but their mind is fully active and they're fully moving around and they're, you know, hologramming into wherever they can get to. And, and this, this machine is huge. It's great. And could just blast people from miles beneath the surface. Right. This is what organic tech is. yeah which tells me while this barn and his folks may have been there 500 years whatever they say in world without end we'll have to see when we get there this had to be a much more ancient machine that had been there for a very long time whatever regardless but jeff here's the thing jms is doing a fabulous job in this moment of showing not telling what organic tech is that by the time we get to humans in the in the things of the shadow ships. By the time we get to, Hey, Vorlon ship, Kosh just died. Go do your thing.[1:05:52] Right we kind of have this innate sense of really what organic tech is even though it's never really been explained and i gotta tell you and my guess is the more we go through this second watch the more we're gonna see and we're gonna see how organic tech works like i'm thinking right now to the white stars how do the white stars work how are they controlled isn't it literally like the pilots or like the telepathic pilots or whatever they're like sitting in these little chairs with like their hands in goo and just kind of stuff that's all they're doing and then linear over there hitting a couple buttons that's organic tech at work yeah like they're using the stuff like like these are the things that are organic tech that's shown to us not necessarily told hey here's what organic tech.[1:06:36] Is and here's how it works i would have still probably appreciated something like that but watching this on a second watch i'm now seeing that that's exactly what that is and this is what jms is doing preparing us for whatever we're going to get laid in the future i still think we could have used more organic tech it could have been more at the forefront not just this undergirding of yeah some of our ships are like this i feel like it could still have been more but in terms of teaching us what organic tech is and how it works this episode is all we really needed or at least a big chunk of what we really needed so i think i think i look at the organic tech thing differently than than you do i think i feel like we've always known what it is like we got a glimpse of that in infection there's the episode where cautious ship communicates you know with uh with sheridan or you know and like says words or whatever it does oh on the side like it does oh yeah that's right i forgot about that you know so like i think that we've known what it is my beef for the longest time and i think it was part of your beef also was so what yeah you got organic tech okay like good what the it's in the world yeah it's a thing in the world yeah yeah and here uh texas analyst rock makes a good point on the story piece of it but the vorlons took the time to create actual organic ships with their own minds and intelligence shadows took a shortcut of using sentient beings to be the so i think organic.[1:08:04] Tech i think was meant for sort of that like how do you approach organic tech.[1:08:08] Says a lot about like your alignment you know or whatever but more than anything.[1:08:12] I just think it's this line of we're at a technological point where we can utilize organic tech.[1:08:19] It just says, this is a technologically superior, whatever, because they can utilize organic. I think it was that simple. And I, and I think with this episode with infection, with other ones, they took a tremendous amount of time to make that point that was not clearly made if that makes sense yeah because here we are on a second watch still talking about it.[1:08:43] I don't know. I just, yes. And, and I still, like I say, I'm with you on the idea that we can, it needed to be more than what it was, but in terms of at least understanding what organic tech is and how it works, this was great. This is what told us even, but that's, that's the thing. I think I like this told us what organic tech is, even though at least Brent didn't realize that his first go around that that's what it was doing. Yeah. You know? So anyway, I just, i had hella respect out of something like that i really like that so that's cool that is exciting, um did you did i don't i know we said a few times hey we should talk about that later we should do whatever did we have anything we wanted to discuss now at this point or did you have something you picked up on and wanted to dive in no i think i think we talked about it all during the episode yeah i think from a messages standpoint there was some stuff we both captured to talk about later we talked about it during the episode but i think the thing that we picked up on this time around that we really didn't the first time was just the emphasis on hope. Yeah. And I think we dissected that pretty thoroughly in the episode itself, but, but watching this a second time, it's shocking to me that we didn't pick up and talk about that a lot on our first watch. Cause I feel like, I feel like that is the message of this two parter.[1:10:00] I think hope you're right. It is the message of this two party. It is the thing that resounds all the way through from the moment we meet draw before we meet draw from the moment that delin is having that conversation with.[1:10:14] Sinclair and londo of annavo i don't know whatever earlier where she says really that fantastic line uh oh yeah without hope that things get better and that our inheritors will inherit a world better than richer than our own life is pointless and evolution is overrated right without hope without hope basically life is pointless yeah what are we doing draw comes in what's the third principle of of sentient life self-sacrifice he's going to self-sacrifice himself why for the hope he's he's drained of hope for his own people but he has a little bit of hope left that if he does this it's going to help fix his people yeah and his for what they should be exactly yeah it's gonna he has hope for multiple layers of the egg again and what is and what does delin say right there at the very end i didn't write it down but what did she say right she's she talked about that self-sacrifice for a friend hey here's a question because of he because of him doing that do you think that somehow gave the len a little more hope absolutely absolutely she was about to lose her friend he was going to go to sea but him sacrificing himself for this thing it's like it's sad right it's sad he's gone uh-huh but he's also right there he's also right there but what does that inspired to lend to do what are you thinking it inspires to lend to carry on the work of making, people better i was gonna say i think it helps inspire her to do the chrysalis.[1:11:38] That's what I mean. Yeah. Like, like, I mean, a leads, I don't know that draw came in here and say, I want to make you go into a chrysalis and change your form.[1:11:46] But because he, he did this, it left her with a renewed sense of hope that things could be better and gave her the courage to do what the right next step was for her, which she determined was to be the own self-fulfilling prophecy. Yep. She is going to fulfill the prophecy because that's what she wants to do. Cause she's Dylan and damn it. She's going to do whatever Dylan wants to do because Dylan's a badass, man. She is. You know? Until they decide she's not. Well, until she gets married.[1:12:15] Sorry. She's not wrong. You know, but she certainly outlived old dude. So anyway, by a lot. Yeah. I think you're right, Jeff. The whole point here is hope. Even Varn's people. We've been searching for 500 years for this place. Yeah. You spend that much time searching for something without hope. Right.[1:12:36] Especially with cool looking ships like theirs. Right? Love it. Well, Jeff, those are some of the messages we found. But you know what? We're not just looking for messages on this rewatch here. We're not just looking for all the stuff that we missed the first time around. I feel like we caught a lot in this one that we missed the first time around. Maybe not so much that plays later into the show. Which, first of all, listen, I'm going to give a shot. While we're having this next segment, if there's something that Jeff and I missed this time around that's going to play later in the show you guys council chambers this is where we need you guys drop it down in the chat we're going to discuss that before we get out of here but while the lag is catching up and they're having a chance to think about it and go through it jeff uh one of the things we're doing is we're creating the 100 completely accurate definitive immutable ranking of babylon 5 season 1 for the second time our current top 5 jeff is signs importance death walker the war prayer sky full of stars believers and then there's a whole bunch of other stuff going all the way down jeff does this crack the top five and if not where does it go it cracks the top five and just barely it's going to be the number five episode when yeah it's pushing believers down but i feel like when we're doing this together as one episode yes that is correct And I think that I said it between episodes, but on balance, this is still not a two-parter.[1:14:02] There's just a lot of fill in this one, which is why it's going to, I mean, it was great and I loved so much of it, but it's not going to get higher than episodes. But here's the thing though. Can I defend that just a little bit? Yeah. Okay.[1:14:15] Without that fill, without the room to breathe. Okay. Like if we're just talking about the plot itself, you're right. No way this needs to be a two-parter. but when we're talking about chopping this full of messages adding in some character moments, those sorts of things not even necessarily world building although it did that too when we we would not have had room to have the discussions you and i had tonight had this all been condensed into i mean this would have been severed dreams or into the fire where we're just like the whole time because it's just oh it's an amazing episode it's just moving so fast you know what i mean so i think while i agree with you it doesn't need to be a two-parter Because it is, it was able to do some things it wouldn't have been able to do otherwise that both you and I have a lot of respect for when episodes do. My first thought was you could take out the Garibaldi-Lise Hampton story and then it all fits very cleanly in a thing. But that's another string in the hope message. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you consider everything else the A-plot, because it kind of all is doing its thing.[1:15:17] Garibaldi's thing is complete B-plot. It's an example of when B-plot and A-plot line up together. I like it yeah i think it works so new number five i like it five well jeff that's gonna do it for us this week oh wait anything in the chat from you guys over there no they didn't have it uh ron asked if we talked about londo yet jeff and we did talk about him a bit during the episode i know ron came in uh while we were in the middle any other thoughts about londo i know we talked about him at the beginning and the whole anger issue that he was having and and all that any other thoughts about londo and his sudden ability to pilot a thing oh it's frailis 12 he's you know i mean he's a hero of the of the war but i think that the key point there was really the the piece that londo was self-sacrificing you know he he when he accepted that that keeper he was totally exemplifying that third principle of sentient life yeah yeah uh and he and he calls it out i he says I've always tried to do this or I saw myself doing this or going out like this. I forget exactly what he said. That's some brave, noble, and futile. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is how I'm going to go out. And people in the chat weren't wrong. What he did was effective and it worked, but it also wasn't like.[1:16:32] Like the plan. And for him, he like, God, those scenes at the end of season five of him sitting alone in the dark on his throne. Like, oh, my God. Oh, yeah. Guy's a hero, man. Right. An evil, horrible hero.[1:16:49] It was great. Right. Well, Jeff, that's going to do it for us this week on A Voice in the Wilderness. Put this one into the books. Second watch. Done. Next week jeff buckle in buddy strap in we've got a big one a huge one babylon squared now jeff i need you to contain yourself because what we're going to talk about right now is not what you thought of babylon squared what i need you to put i need you to go all the way back to when we watched voice in the wilderness part two for the first time and we first heard the name of the episode babylon squared what did you think it was going to be about luckily we have these episodes in our podcast and YouTube feeds where I can go back and see what it was. And I did because I'm a professional and I prepared, but, uh, I thought that Babylon squared was going to be a copy of Babylon five, maybe a little out of phase. It's going to show up and there's not going to be anybody on board. And then they're going to go over there. They're going to find clues and hints. We're going to learn ultimately, Brenda said, we're going to learn about the history of the prior Babylon stations. You were so close. I know you were so close. The only place where you messed up was there was a copy of the Babylon 5 station. No! No, we're going to back here. We're literally going to find one of the other Babylon stations and then everything you just said is absolutely correct. Yeah, everything else happens. I think to myself, like, yeah, there's no Babylon squared with what we know to this point. It has to be another Babylon 5.[1:18:19] You know, until it isn't. What did you, my friend, predict? Well, I, I said, I came up with this very clever and unique story all off the top of my head that I think just would have made a, you know, it would have made a good Star Trek. You think maybe? Yeah. Yeah. What I said was there's going to be two Babylon five stations that are existing in different phases, but they're sharing like a power source or something. And when they, they don't understand that each other is there. And as they, and basically I did the whole Voyager episode with the two things and i yeah that's where i went with it and if you don't know what episode of voyager i'm talking about you really should go watch it because it's a fantastic episode, i forget the name of it jeff probably knows off the top of his head i don't i don't i know i know, man you know to be really honest in the past three in the past uh three years i found myself watching less and less star trek and not like i haven't had time for exactly it's not that i don't want to watch it it's just that we're doing all this other we're doing this all of my tv watching time is is wrapped up in uh babylon 5 stargate and timeless lately is really what i've been watching um no you're right there's a lot of tv i haven't been watching uh outside like i watched the new star trek like pretty close to as it comes out yeah but that's about it i will tell you what i did just watch though yeah in real time here's what i just watched i walked got to watch the Voyager documentary.[1:19:44] Really? Oh, because you were one of the – I was one of the backers, and I got a digital release for it. I won't ask you to spill any of the goods. I mean, I'm eager for that one. Are you? Yeah. Are you? I did the thing where I stopped with the credits at the end, and I looked for my name. I was like, yeah, there it is. Zoom, really big. Yeah.[1:20:05] Awesome. Well, hey, everybody. We're going to see you next week. Thanks for joining us for this incredibly deep view of a voice in the wilderness. I'm looking forward to next week. three three hour recording here jeff yeah here's the thing raw recording here we just eclipsed three hours i think youtube's we're gonna hit this it'll be right around an hour maybe give or take a few minutes but and shout out to our incredible council chambers most of which stuck around this whole time also yeah you guys amazing you're so cool that's great thank god we didn't start this at like 11 o'clock at night jeff all right you're right like you like we normally would yeah but you know what for all of you who would love to be a part of these things as well just go to our Patreon page. Council Chambers is the tier to subscribe to, and you can also join us as we do these recordings. If you aren't in a point where you want to do that, that's totally cool. Just make sure that wherever you're watching or listening to us, you can help us out a lot by liking and subscribing, commenting, just interacting in general with the show. But the one thing you can do beyond anything else that makes a big difference and we truly, truly appreciate is share this show with a friend of yours or even an enemy of yours. If you want to make them listen to me and brent talk and talk and talk about old sci-fi shows and what we think about them just share this show it mean the world to us torture beyond torture right all right i'm gonna wrap up we'll see you guys hey jeff hey jeff yeah what's up brent mr aiken fire.[1:21:31] Yeah um it's it's not working sir uh damn it did you put a new drawl in i only had a c and and and it needs a double a draw do you know what this means mr allen whatever it is it can't be that bad if you try to kiss me i'm gonna break your arm.[1:21:54] Music.
