Speaker 1:
0:18
Welcome to the Touchdown Jaguars podcast. Here's your host, james Johnson, and Phil Smith. Hey everyone, welcome back to a brand new episode of the Touchdown Jaguars podcast. I am your co-host, phil Smith, and joining me, as always, is your other co-host, james Johnson and Jay. The Jacksonville Jaguars pull off back-to-back victories in London and a boy was today a really, really impressive win and a victory that I think that goes a long way in terms of proving to people, to outsiders, that this team is possibly legit. Coming off the Kansas City game and, of course, the demoralizing loss to the division rival Texans, heading overseas at one and two, this is the absolute best outcome. We have a lot to break down here in today's episode. We're recording once again on a Sunday evening. Since the Jaguars played so early in the day, it's fresh on our minds. We get to talk about it. We get to monitor Jaguars and Bill's fans going at it on Twitter. I think we probably should have expected that. Jay Two of the more feisty fan bases, I think, in the league, I think dating back to the playoff game in the wild card back in 2017, these two fan bases have just not liked each other, even if you want to go back as far to 1996 when the Jaguars beat Jim Kelly. It's just two fan bases that seem to never get along, despite being two franchises. I've always made this connection, jay. I thought that was always really funny. The bills for so long were dominated by Tom Brady and we had Peyton Manning in our division. I think two fan bases and two teams that have a lot in common. I've talked in length on this podcast about how I have a lot of friends from Buffalo, so I do, on the side, root for Buffalo when they're not playing us, just because I like to see my friends happy and see their teams win. But I think we should have seen this coming as far as just the two fan bases going at it. And apparently now, jay, it's in the script that the referees want us to win. What a time, right. What a time to be a Jaguar fan.
Speaker 2:
2:36
That is the first I've ever heard for the Jaguars Fending for or, excuse me, the referees fending for the Jaguars. When I saw that too, I was like what? Like? Have we made it to that point yet where they will fan for us, which I think we will argue that they really don't do us any favors, especially when it comes to protecting our quarterback? For some reason, everybody else gets the quarterback calls in terms of penalties, except for us. But that's another story for another time. And yeah, as you said, man, we should have seen it coming because of the history between these two fan bases, as of late They've met each other a lot In the postseason. They met, of course, back in the Saxonville days where we beat them in the close one at home. They had a lot to say about how they showed up in droves at the stadium and of course our comeback was well, we showed up as well. So that started. I guess that's kind of where this all started is from that in terms of the beef between the two fan bases. And afterwards we just kind of been that thorn or that nail, so to speak, in their tire since then, because the bills as good as they've been and as many postseason opportunities as they've had and all of that stuff, when they meet the Jaguars. For some reason everybody has that one team too. So this is not for the bills to be upset about or offended by or anything like that. That's what I don't understand about. It is because everybody has that one team that you look at and say I don't want to face them. For us it's the Texans. We had that conversation, what two weeks ago it used to be the Chargers. At one point in time, for us we would see the Chargers in the rearview mirror and it's like man, not looking forward to that game. And for them it just happens to be us so glad we got the win. In terms of today's game, as you said, man, it was a roller coaster, as me and you talked about beforehand here and when, it being so early in the morning, man, it's like oh man, do I need to start drinking early? Do I need to make me a Clicco Mamosa or something? You got to make something that's fitting to the morning when it comes to a game that early. But yeah, nonetheless, man, we came away with a victory, so happy we came out of that situation 2-1-0, because we had a lot of questions heading into that trip to London after we lost to the Houston Texans. So can't wait to talk about it. And, as always, you all know where you can find our content and whatnot our previous episodes on the website touchdown Jaguars. We got articles on there. We need to get some new articles on there, but we have some old articles on there and we welcome all of our new listeners as well. I'm sure we're going to get some UK people, so welcome to them as well. Feel free to rate, comment, subscribe all of that good stuff, but I can't wait to talk about this game. As you know, the Jacksonville Jaguars were able to get two crucial wins in London.
Speaker 1:
5:48
Yeah, Like I said, you really could not have had a better trip out to London, as the Jaguars will come back home next week and I'm sure the fans will be jazzed to be welcoming a three and two football team returning to the bank. But nonetheless, like you said, we have a ton to talk about and break down when it comes to this game, as you mentioned, want to welcome in any of those brand new and returning listeners. For those of you that want to keep up with us on social media, make sure to check out the link tree link in the show notes of this episode. You'll find everything that you need. We are primarily the most active over on Twitter, or X I realize I've been calling it Twitter the whole time and I will continue to do so, as we do not acknowledge the other name, so follow us over there. It has our personal pages as well as the podcast page. You'll find the link to the website that Jay mentioned, and you will also find a link to download the SeatGeek app so you can use our promo code touchdownjaguars Save yourself $20. Like I said, the Jaguars are coming back to town next week against the Indianapolis Colts. Use our promo code touchdownjaguars Save yourself $20 on your very first purchase with SeatGeek. Thank you all so much for those of you that have used that so far and shout out to SeatGeek for continuing to sponsor the show. But, jay, let's get into the game here. The Jacksonville Jaguars I beat the Buffalo Bills 25 to 20. I mean, jay? I mean you can make the argument that no team in the league went into week five with as much momentum as the Buffalo Bills. They have come off. You know they had won three straight after the Monday night loss to the Jets. That was the Aaron Rodgers game, and then they put up what was it? 40-something points on the Miami Dolphins, who at the time, people thought might be the best team in the league. So this game was a huge statement for the Jacksonville Jaguars, and Brent Martino put this really, really well over on his Twitter page. You know the Doug Peterson impact on this franchise. The Jaguars used to find a way to lose this type of game, but today they found a way to win and seal the victory against a very, very good Buffalo team. This by no means is going to be the last we see of Buffalo. This may even be a playoff preview that we see early next year. So, jay, what do you think about the Jaguars performance here and just being able to take it to a team? That again really really good Super Bowl aspirations, and we should have honestly kind of expected this as well. As far as this kind of game I mean 11 to 7 going into halftime All of these matchups that we've had with Buffalo are always just so strange. So just talk about again, like what Brent Martino is mentioning there, the Doug Peterson effect. I mean every single thing you talked about, complementary football, is what we saw here today and I'm sure you'll be able to win.
Speaker 2:
8:37
Yeah, you can argue that this was probably the most complimentary game that the Jaguars have had. You know, this year should I say albeit. You know, special teams could have maybe contributed a little bit more, but they played their part. To none of them they can about it the one of the unsung plays of the game, evan Ingram swatting the ball out of bounds on the onside kick attempt. So you know, they just complimented each other very well on this. You know, in this game because there were times where you know the offense and we've seen this routinely, unfortunately this year it was time where the offense would cross the 50, even being field goal ranging the red zone, come up with no points. It's like the worst possible thing that can happen for them when they get into red zone would happen. But then you would have the defense answer back with, whatever the case may be, a Darius Williams pick, who you know. I guess I'll talk about him. You know, because he has had a phenomenal two games over there in the UK and we all seen the PFF scores. I think he has like a 91 in coverage. We'll see what you know that moves to if that stays around that range or goes a little bit lower after the grades are calculated tomorrow afternoon or morning or whenever it is, they get calculated. But Darius Williams man came up with a big pick and I said it early on Twitter that I did feel like Josh Allen had a pick six in them. Unfortunately that wasn't a pick six, but it was a crucial pick where you know if they end up catching that there, you know, at the 10 or somewhere you know closer to the, you know to a touchdown. So that was a huge, tremendous play on his part. So there's your defensive contribution, of course, and you know, just in terms of the offense and how they complimented the defense, closing the game by running the ball right and that's how you win games is sometimes you have to close the game using the rush attack, eating away at clock, which that you know. That's that's the key thing with the rush attack, especially when you use it late. So shout outs to Travis ETN, because early in that game and he talked about this early in the game they couldn't get much going in terms of the run, but that was all a part of their plan. You know, and we've talked about press Taylor and our distaste for his play calling and this, that and the other. But when you look at the totality and overall game plan that they had to wear on this, this Buffalo Bills defense, which they had guys dropping like flies and you know that's another story for another time. You know, hopefully, hopefully, a lot of those guys can come back and some of them even did come back. I know Milano might be out for the season, if I read correctly. You know, you know prayers to, you know all of the players that went out there and you know might have sustained big time injuries and would have you, but when you look at their approach to that defense, wearing them out, it was a classic old you know what we say in the SEC all the time a classic Georgia type of matchup where you know, yeah, you might stop Georgia in the first two, three quarters, but eventually that takes a toll and that's simply what happened here is that, you know that took a toll on the Buffalo Bills. We started to see the armor have kinks in it, or you know started to have cracks in it, should I say. in the third quarter Travis ET was able to break off a few. Then in the fourth quarter he was able to deliver that dagger. And that is exactly what they meant by playing complimentary football is, despite all of the shortcomings they had on offense, just keep pounding the rock, keep at it. And eventually one was going to have a shot off the T-Wi. He said this one of them was going to go long for the ETN in that run game and that's exactly what happened. And again, you know the defense contributing on those moments where the Jaguars pretty much came up with no points in red zone and crossing the 50 yard line. So overall, man, yeah, the game gave me crazy anxiety but at the end of the day, as you said and as Brent said, their ability to play complimentary football is what, ultimately, they haven't had in the past. They always kind of been lopsided in the past. You know it's either the defense is significantly better than the offense or something like that. But the ability to compliment the other side of the ball, because both sides have a decent amount of playmakers, is what helped this team and helped us to ultimately come out of the UK with that second victory.
Speaker 1:
13:20
Yeah, plenty of positives to pull from Jay. I mean, obviously you talk about Trevor Lawrence. I mean Trevor had, he has had. Obviously we have documented very, very extensively this season about how Trevor is playing really, really good and he has just been plagued with, you know, receiver drops and situations such as that where the numbers aren't reflecting the type of season that he is having. This was a game in which we saw those plays that show that he is a special guy and, coupled with the statistics that you saw here as far as throwing the football, I mean 25 of 37, 315 yards, only the one touchdown, but still was slinging it all over the field. One thing I really like, jay, is just them being able to spread the ball out. Remember we were talking about that the first few weeks of the season. Are they trying to force the ball to riddly too much? Are they trying to get it to him too often? I mean eight targets for Ridley Kirk, evan Ingram, zay Jones had five before he went down and this is the offense that we thought we were going to see heading into the season. That had somewhat shown itself in the preseason as well, in the time that we saw it. So being able to finally see all of that come together was solid. Now, again, this definitely had the opportunity to be an even wider margin, I mean a five point win. You're definitely happy about that. And again, when you're playing a team, a really good team like the Buffalo Bills, eventually they are going to be able to put something together, which they did and they were able to do. But you can make an argument, jay, that this game could have been lopsided if not for those fumbles and those missed opportunities. So where do you put those? As far as I don't want to say blame, but you know who needs to fix more is. I mean, obviously we saw the return of Cam Robinson. A lot of people were talking about that, but Luke Fortner didn't have that great of a game. Anton Harrison struggled a little bit. I mean, again, he's a rookie, so we're giving him a little bit more of a one way than we are with guys like Fortner and Cam Robinson. So, as far as those turnovers, I won't say we're, you know, lucky to come out with that win, because the team did play very, very well. But you can't make those types of mistakes in critical moments, such as like in the playoffs, right, you don't want to see things like that. So where do you lay some of that blame, or who are you focusing more on as far as correcting those types of mistakes Heading into the final three-quarters of the season?
Speaker 2:
15:54
Well, yeah, first I want to talk on what you mentioned with Red Lee in terms of his play, because you know we were critical on him, of course, and that's because we you know especially me watching the Falcons we know what Red Lee is capable of and they just weren't getting that out of him and so shout outs to him for the game that he had and basically he caught everything that was thrown his way in this game, which, you know, I don't think Calvin Red Lee's hands have, aside from you know, this this year have really been an issue. So I felt like it'll get corrected. It just could have been a little bit a case of just concentrating too hard, or, as they say, you know, when it comes to receiver coaching, thinking about running before you catch the ball, type of things and what have you. But he snagged those catches for Trevor Lawrence that we previously weren't getting out of him this week and that really really helped him. As you said, seven catches, one hundred twenty two yards. It just seemed like every time that the Jacksonville Jaguars needed a third down conversion, they got it out of Calvin Red Lee. So that connection between him and Trevor Lawrence, that's, that's one of the biggest takeaways of this game is just coming out of this game with that connection, especially in crucial down moments, to the point where you know teams are really going to start to focus on that. That opens up more opportunities for others as well. But just to have a guy you can go to on a third down and just be automatic, as they were today, that's huge for this offense. And then, in terms of when you talk about, you know the mistakes and what have you, to me it was a rocky game for the offensive line. Luke Fortnagess isn't, isn't doing it for me, man, the penetration and what have you that he's allowed, at least from you know what I've gathered. That hasn't really impressed me. And we're talking about. See, what's frustrating about Fortner is we're talking about a guy that came from an SEC school when we drafted and we were hyped about it. You know like he's battle tested. He's played against the Florida's of the world. You know he's played against the Georgia's of the world and it's just not, you know, translated. Maybe he's a little hurt because earlier in the year, earlier in the season, he did sustain the injury. Maybe he's a little hurt. I don't think he's been showing up on the injury report. But I don't know what the deal is with him. But it isn't just him, but that interior line play in general has just been a catastrophe. Now it was. It was times where now you could say that, although they allowed the pressure, that Trevor could have got the ball out of his hands a little quicker, and he admitted that to him in the press or so there is that. I think that last fumble he had, if I'm not mistaken. I'll have to go back and rewatch the game. I only saw it once, which was live, but it was one. It was one where I thought he could have maybe threw it to the back of the end zone and, you know, avoided the SEC, not necessarily get a touchdown or anything, but just kind of throw it out the back of the end zone. Maybe had a receiver back there to allow that play to not be intentional grounding or anything like that. But all of that said man, yeah, this offensive line is really, really was hurting the team right now. And you know I can't help but think, like if the interior offensive line had their stuff together, how much better this offense will be and how much, you know how much more improved Trevor would look. They're not helping his stats exactly and you know we would have a little bit more early success in games too, because it's been some games where we tried to run the ball early and it just, when, you know, working for us, and we kind of veered away from it in the past in terms of the games this year in the past, but this year we just stuck to it. And I think what made them stick to it, though, when you think about it, is when you know they just saw the defense dropping like flies and not our defense, but the bills like members of that defense dropping like flies, and I think they just made up their minds like, hey, eventually we're going to get the yardage we need to get, and I think there needs to be a plan heading forward. But again, when the interior offensive line has played like they have, you know you have concerns about them being able to do that heading forward in the future against a team that isn't as beat up defensively. So that's one of those time we'll tell things. But yeah, I am the most disappointed in terms of that interior offensive line. Brandon Scherf, you know, has caused a few penalties. I think he had one this game, I think correct me if I'm wrong that you know you don't like to have out of all pro, as we already said, Luke Fortner man, like it's just the strength isn't there. He's not where we thought he would be in terms of you know, getting, you know a push and not allowing people in the backfield. And then you look at you know the situation that guard walk a little had to come out of the game. So I guess we'll, you know, as you said earlier, give him a little bit more of a runway in terms of seeing what he could do at that guard position. But you know, it's kind of been a turn style at guard to in terms of getting the play that you want out of that left guard position. But the good news is we have a group heading forward that will get some consistency out of in terms of them being on the field together If everybody stays healthy. I think Cam Robinson came back into the game after his injury. The more he gets reps, the better he'll become. Let's. You know, let's not forget, this was his first game back since the preseason, so there will be rush there, especially at the left tackle position. Hopefully Walker little situation. Is it too serious? The Peterson said they'll have an update on that later, but if it's not, he'll be back at that left guard position and maybe the just the ability to have camaraderie and consistency there in terms of the same five will help this team a little bit heading forward. We'll see. In time We'll tell.
Speaker 1:
21:53
Yeah, I mean consistency in reps is really all you can do. I mean there's not really much you could really change up at this point of the season. When it comes to Luke Fortner, right, jay, I mean you got Shatley, who has played a little bit of every position on the line. I mean, do you think you entertain that because of what you saw in terms of the interior pressure against Buffalo? Obviously they have Indy coming to town and regardless of you know who the quarterback is going to be for the Indianapolis Colts next week. It's looking like we're going to see Minshew versus Lawrence. But you know you got Defoe coming to town and then obviously you got about. You know a lot of really, really talented defensive lines that you're coming up against here in the later half of the season. Is there anything that they can do to try and sure up that line, or is it what it is at this point, correct?
Speaker 2:
22:44
Yeah, well, you know, shatley, he is what he is and that's a career backup. But he's seen a lot of reps. He's probably the most. If I had to do it like a lead wide preview or poll, he probably might be the most experienced backup in terms of an offensive line. And now you know, he's only played in the interior to correct that part in terms of guard and center. I don't think he's ever played tackle. But that was something that crossed my mind, which you just asked during the game, because you know, at that point I kind of had enough of a fordner. I was like man put Shatley in it. Then it hit me. I was like, oh duh, like Shatley's already in, he's at left guard because Walker Little had to exit the game. So it was like, oh man, I can't, we can't put him at center. But you know, that would all be dependent maybe upon if Walker Little's good to go heading forward. If they want to try Shatley at center, I certainly would give it a try and see if that would work better than the fordner experience. But yeah, man, this is. You know, we're only two years in the fordner's career but it's looking early or in the early stages of this this year is looking like. You know, we might start out to compile and game game plans in terms of what we do in the off season and in the draft about replacing the whole interior. Like that crossed my mind today too. It's like I might have to literally write articles about how we are going to fix three interior positions, which is not going to be easy when you factor in how many other needs the Jaguars have and the fact that the Jaguars have to pay Trevor Lawrence. So I mean to answer your question. They might be stuck with fordner there. They invested an early round pick into him. But I think for this year maybe, you see, if you know, shatley can give you a better chance there, and time will tell if they do that. I don't think they will because, again, I think, with how this coaching staff is kind of wired, they believe in development, right, and they believe in their abilities as coaches to develop. So I think they'll keep trying fordner out there. But you have to ask yourself how much longer can they do it? You know, and it's not really vitamin to behind, we're lucky to come out of this situation with two wins, but in the process fordner hasn't like played great Like. Eventually you have to start having those conversations. Even, you know, even considering how young he is and how much you believe in your development as a team or as a staff, you have to start having those conversations Because, for one, you know like you want to protect Trevor as best as you can and, two, you would like to be in games a little bit earlier offensively. That we have, but we got going a little bit early offensively this week, but you want to see that more consistently.
Speaker 1:
25:37
Yeah, I know fans are definitely gonna want to see it as well at home. I mean, listen, they will. It is what it is right the Jaguars are owing to at home this year Three. You know everywhere else, everyone is aware of that and you know what better way to hopefully turn that around then against the Indianapolis Colts, who the who have had some quite some difficulty winning in Jacksonville as of late. So I'm definitely want to see some improvement sooner rather than later, like you said, jay. You know, when it comes to the offseason, we will obviously address that then. But again, kind of, what you have is is what you got and you Kind of hope that they you're able to just put something together and get a little bit more a Consistency, because the rest of the offense seems to be clicking the way that we had expected them to. Yeah, what else do you want to highlight here? You know you talked about, obviously, darius Williams already. We we touched on Trev and the offensive line, travis etn. Obviously, you know, not getting a lot going early on, but, like he said, just kept at it that eventually they were able to break those runs, seal the game, get into the end zone a couple of times as well as far as etn man he had. He was struggling for me as far as fantasy football, but I I bounced back in a big way, jay, between him and Jamar Chase. It was a good day for me. I was 0-1 for heading into this this weekend fantasy football so it was not going very well for me. But what else did you want to highlight here in terms of this victory?
Speaker 2:
27:07
Yeah, I mean, one thing I wanted to highlight was just Mike Caldwell, man who, doug Peterson, he praised him at the end of the press conference, remember, again, we had this conversation earlier. People wanted to run Mike Caldwell out of you know the building last year and you know, if I can recall my big thing was with him, was like, hey, man, this is a first year defensive coordinator. Let's like, give a guy some some, you know, give him a little bit of a runway here. But yeah, mike Caldwell, aside from that Texas game, and again as we go throughout the weeks, we find out that you know, the Texas are simply better than we thought. And that might not have been as bad of a game by the J. I mean it was atrocious for a game in terms of all of the issues they had, but you know we're giving them a little bit more of a runway in terms of that game when you watch the Texans weekend and week out, who are more competitive. They did lose to Atlanta today, though. So they did, they did, but they were in it like they. I watched that whole game actually, and you know they almost came back. They I mean their last offensive drive, of course. They scored, stroud, scored, and then the Falcons just did. You know what most people were doing that situation? Take advantage of the soft coverage, march away down the field, bleed the clock out to the last second. They made a brilliant smart play I think it was on third down to Take an extra knee To go into the fourth down. Bleed the clock down to like one second so they wouldn't get the ball. The Texans when get the ball and they kicked it in with Wait, wait. Young hope I is it. I miss his name up all the time young hoku. He went through the right, cool yeah young way cool and, yeah, he's more one of the more accurate kickers in football, by the way. So you wouldn't rather put it in anybody else's hands or foot, should I say?
Speaker 1:
29:00
and won the game and they threw the ball to Kyle Pitts, who knew he was even on the team.
Speaker 2:
29:07
Yeah, that's my fantasy tight end, who has been nonexistent, but today he got a decent amount of points. I'm still gonna end up losing, but glad he bounced back. But yeah, I mean, you know, going back to Mike Caldwell, man, he's done a pretty superb job. When you consider the fact that I think it might have been Demetrius or somebody who said is, when you consider Mike Caldwell Basically has one good past rusher, at the moment he's doing the best he can with what he has, and when you consider, you know, like the hits they kind of took, they, they lost Devon Lloyd, so you know they were had a insert movement in there which you know I say this all the time playing interior linebacker Is it easy, especially when you're, you know, inserted into the role unexpectedly but, you know, lost Devon Lloyd and lost Devon Hamilton and we get those guys back next week. So that'll that'll help a lot. But yeah, I just want to give praise to Mike Caldwell and the development he has made as a coordinator and what he's been able to do it. You know, the little bit that he's had over this year and and looking at where he is in comparison to last year, man, I don't know how you feel about him, but, um, yeah, he's a guy that has really like when you talk about X factors of the season so far and we're just into the first quarter of the season but X factors Mike Caldwell has been the X factor for the Jacksonville Jaguars and if it wasn't for him, we probably have more losses than we're talking about today.
Speaker 1:
30:41
No, you're right and listen, just like we talked about last week with Dewey right, whenever you know a previously criticized player, coach, whatever it may be, does something great, does their job well, we are going to point that out and highlight that. And when you look at the job that Mike Caldwell and this defense have done, you take away the Texans game, which hopefully was, you know, a facade, something that we don't see again this season. You know you're talking about holding the Colts to 21, solid, you know, in a in their first game of the year. Holding the Chiefs to 17. You know, holding the Falcons to only seven. And then Buffalo who, again last week against Miami, put up 48 points, holding them to 20 and making them essentially a non-factor for Roughly three quarters of this game. So definitely want to give a shout out to Mike Caldwell. Like you said, I mean first time defensive coordinator. Last year we knew that there wasn't going to be any kind of change, barring some sort of, you know, catastrophe. So we wanted to see okay, how is he going to respond this season? You know, after some questionable Coaching and play calling that we saw in his first go around, we're now seeing this come to fruition here in the second year and I mean, listen, we're, we're seeing, like I said, darius Williams play very, very well. Now Tyson Campbell got beat a couple times here this week. But I mean, jay, I think you can speak to this like that's just kind of the nature of the position, like you can be as good as you as as humanly possible, and we have said on this show and we have said on Twitter that Tyson Campbell is a top 10 corner in this league and sometimes you just get beat. I mean Stefan digs, one of the best receivers obviously in the league, and Gabe Davis, that guy is just huge and finds a way. I mean scored. You heard Rich Eisen Mentioned it every chance he got that Gabe Davis has scored a touchdown in the last four games. He's played in good Lord, I don't know Rich Eisen to the biggest Buffalo Bills fan today for some reason. But Seeing this, this defense play very, very well, despite still Having a bit of a lack of a pass rush. We didn't really see a whole lot today in terms of that, when it as far as them getting home, but the defense is definitely playing better. I still would like to see them make that move For an impact player on the defensive side, j. You know that's been a huge topic of conversation, not only here in the show but also amongst fans, so I would still like to see him get his hands on that big impact player in terms of the pass rush. But what we've seen so far has definitely been a step up from what we expected and certainly what we saw last year.
Speaker 2:
33:21
Yeah, you read my mind when you spoke about the secondary. That's going to be my second thing I wanted to talk about and it's one more after that, but the secondary. Now I want to swing this question back to you the metrics on PFF. And again, those are for whoever believes in PFF and who doesn't. Again, I've said my personal philosophy with PFF. I like it as a tool and what I just personally do is when I watch the film, if what I saw matches what their metrics pretty much said about a player, if they play good to the caliber of a B level or a C level, then you know we roll with it. Right, that's just kind of how I've always done it, but PFF has had some great grades for the secondary. Of course, we already talked about Darius Williams having done, you know, I think, 91 in coverage, the best coverage corner, if I'm not mistaken, at least with significant snaps that they have on their metrics. We talked about Tyson. Well, you just talked about Tyson and how we believe he's a top 10 corner, probably top eight to five. To be honest with you and I'm not just saying that because I'm a Georgia guy, but go dogs, by the way but improvement he's made over the years, because when we drafted him, admittedly I was iffy, you were too, so we were there with that. But but him playing to his ability. And also, am I missing? Oh yeah, Andre Cisco. Andre Cisco has great at well on PFF too. I think he is in the range of 85, 84 ish somewhere in there, I have to see. But those three have great at well. Those three are among the top at their position by PFF standards. And then, you know, Ray Sean has it necessarily great at well on PFF, but he's made some impact plays that have gone under the radar right Today's game where he blew up the run behind the yard of scrimmage, hanging in there with Travis Kelsey, who you know albeit Travis was coming off the injury, but hanging in there with Travis Kelsey as much as he did in the game when we play the Chiefs. He's done some under the radar things too, and they get Johnson back to who was a preseason standout. So that being said, Phil, what are your thoughts on the secondary and I know it's kind of hard to gauge because we can't watch every team in the league but do you think they're a top 10 ish secondary? Because I know you, in shout outs to you for this that you praise Andre Cisco, Said Andre Cisco would be a pro bowler and is coming into fruition in terms of his performance. The voters got to do their part to get him in there. But could you talk about the secondary and how you feel about them? Are they a top 10 ish unit to you or do you think they might be a little bit outside of the top team?
Speaker 1:
36:08
Yeah, no, I certainly think they're. They're hovering right there around the the eight to 10 mark. I mean again throwing out the Houston Texans game, which again just so many things were just out of sync for the team as a whole, not just the secondary, what we've seen here in the other four games out of the. The secondary I mean, listen, we understand that Desmond Ritter is most likely not the future quarterback of the Atlanta Falcons, although, listen, he played a good game here today against that that very same Houston Texan team, so maybe he is. Who knows? I know Atlanta, atlanta.
Speaker 2:
36:46
I was about to say man, no, no, I can't figure out. He showed up.
Speaker 1:
36:50
Listen, man Falcons can't figure out what the hell they want to do with Desmond Ritter. What one week they want to. They want to throw him off Stone Mountain the next week. He's their quarterback of the future. I don't know what you guys want, ok, but it comes to that kid. But again, throwing out what they did against Houston, what we've seen in these other four games. This is a top tier unit and you know, like you said, jay. As far as it Trey Herndon, I mean if he could just put it all together, you know you compared him in our group chat to a old school safety. You know, just runs downhill, able to make the tackle, not great in coverage, which is unfortunate because that's his primary job, but we'll throw that out. I think we have a lot of high hopes for Gregory Jr when he starts getting consistent snaps and seeing him get out there on the field. But yeah, andre, sisko Ray. Sean Jenkins, you know we called him out a little bit earlier in the season as well. You know, not playing up to the, the standard that in which we saw him play last year, and a guy that was, remember he felt a little slighted last year. Remember they left him off of that tweet as far as getting Jaguar players to the Pro Bowl. You know, after that he played lights out down the stretch, so you want to see more out of that. You know a guy that's a leader on this team, so I certainly think this team is on the rise it is. It's strange because, again, when you know, when the Saxonville team we had a top five secondary and it was a team that was full of a lot of people, you know a lot of guys that are very loud, very outspoken, obviously with Jalen Ramsey, but you know, you heard what was it. Sean Gibson was a was a guy that that talked a lot. Aj Boy was obviously the guy that kind of evened them out for this one. You know. I think Andre Sisko is probably the outspoken one, ray Sean Jenkins as well too. You know you kind of see him a lot but you see Andre Sisko very active on social media, but between Tyson Campbell, darius Williams, they're they relatively keep to themselves. But I mean these guys are are balling out right now and I think, as we see, you know, the Jaguars are going to get a couple opportunities coming up here. They have Thursday night football, obviously against New Orleans. They'll still have a big opportunity there. They get San Francisco 49ers, who are probably the best team in football right now, and then you have those two primetime games in just in December. Right, you got the Bengals, you got the Ravens two top tier quarterbacks, two quarterbacks were big fans of. They have an opportunity here in those, on those national stages, those national spotlights, to really, really show how good they are. And you know, we're seeing that kind of all come together right now.
Speaker 2:
39:16
Yeah, and, like you said, no, they're not. It's outspoken as that. You know, the previous group, jalen Ramsey and Boy A and Gibson and Church, shout outs to them but they are, they still, despite not talking a lot, they got a lot of dog in them, you know, and we talk about it in our thread. A lot is you know. Boogie says, you know, oh man, I wish you know we had more people that had the dog in them. You know, and this, that and the other, but low key, that secondary, has that. You just don't hear him talking a lot. Tyson Campbell is pretty active in the run game, in my opinion, if you ask me, and it's very good at it too, and it's very physical too when it comes to making one on one tackles with people. He shouldn't be tackling running backs and things of that nature. Tyson Campbell, you know, when I see him in those situations it's like man, that's like, that's that Kirby, that's that Kirby smart coaching right there, you know. And then again, when you know he doesn't locate the ball, that's another trait we see with Kirby smart defensive backs, and it's like, oh man, the Kirby smart trait shows up, but just his ability and willingness to stick his nose in the run game is also impressive, just as impressive as his coverage ability and ratio, and, of course, he does that often as well. But yeah, man, I really like that group and I hope they only grow as time, you know, goes. Of course, like you know, it's going to come down to, like you said, or like we've been saying this whole time they need that, um, past Russia. If they got that guy at past Russia, that secondary easily slides into the top five, probably if they got that guy at past Russia. So that's something to keep in mind, man is they're doing this without elite past Russia, so to speak. And then my last question, feeling will close up the show on this one. It was a tweet I put out earlier Got a lot of interaction. Man, this is for the offensive side. Why is it that you think Trevor Lawrence gets a lot of hatred? And not only that, but at times, you know and this is a small amount of fans this is not to say it's a large amount of these fans but at times you know, he's underappreciated by a small fraction of the fan base too. So, yeah, what's your thoughts about on why he's so hated by those outside of fan base and, you know, a small group within the fan base.
Speaker 1:
41:43
You know this is a really good question. It's so perplexing because Trev is the opposite of. Let's just compare him to a Blake Bortles. Right and listen. I have talked about this with you before. I've also talked to it with our friends and this is what I'm going to say. This is, you know, even though I have a very checkered history and past with Mr Blake Bortles, I want to say that what I'm about to say this is no indictment on anybody living their life. In the end of the day, blake Bortles, he didn't hurt anybody. You know, he wasn't in the news for negativity as far as how he was living his life and he never ended up. You know, have some of these other quarterbacks in the league that maybe quarterback other teams, like one up in Cleveland have done. You know, blake Bortles, he never did anything wrong. But here's the thing Trevor Lawrence has been crowned as the chosen one, probably since he was like 13 years old, right, I don't know exactly when he started getting the hype in terms of recruiting and all that, but all this when it comes to quarterback, that stuff starts at a very young age. Trevor Lawrence has been preparing for this spotlight since he was a teenager and he went through his life preparing for that hype, going to Clemson, you know, winning a national championship and playing on the highest age and in front of the brightest lights possible. He came into the league already married to Marissa, right, he was a guy that has always said the right thing. He's always done the right thing. You see him now in, you know, in national media. You've seen him in commercials. He is the exact opposite of Blake Bortles who came into the league, who did have a girlfriend at the time, but, you know, not necessarily someone that was always in the spotlight a lot, obviously. You know, seeing him at the beach bars is something we would never see really from Trevor Lawrence. Right, like they live two completely different lives and they had two totally different types of preparation. I think when that type of hype and that type of expectation is tied to somebody, you're just naturally going to get people that don't believe in him. For some reason, some portions of this fan base wanted the Gardner Minshew or Blake Bortles to be our quarterback forever, because they could relate to their lifestyle and relate to who they were as people who are, again, not bad people. Gardner Minshew I would absolutely love to just hang out with and go have a drink with. I don't want him to be my starting quarterback. Same thing with Blake Bortles. I actually had a drink with Blake Bortles down at the bricks Totally nice guy. We buried the hatchet after the whole Halloween debacle. That happened like six years ago Super nice guy. That's not the guy that I want to be my starting quarterback. I want a professional. I want an adult in the room right, which is what Trevor Lawrence is. I think that just naturally comes with detractors. He's not the most flashy guy. Honestly. He's a little boring. He's just normal life and how he carries himself and hypes up his teammates. It's not the most flashy thing. It's a really interesting question because, again, he doesn't do anything wrong. He does everything like you want him to do so, but I think it just comes with that expectation. Also, some people just don't like that. He's a family guy. He came into the league and he came in to Clemson with all of this preparing for that moment since he was a kid. I think maybe that's part of it. I hope that answers the question.
Speaker 2:
45:18
Basically he's not a guy that would be on ABC's the Bachelor.
Speaker 1:
45:23
No, we're not going to see him. Thank God we're not going to see 50 million shots of Taylor Swift tied to Trevor Lawrence. For the love of God, I had to mute her name on Twitter. I was so sick of it. I'm over it.
Speaker 2:
45:37
Right, I probably shouldn't even use that example of the Bachelor, because we had Clay Harbor on there one time who was a great person I mean great person, should I say so? I probably shouldn't use that comparison, but you know what I mean by that. But yeah, I mean I get where you're totally coming from. He's not one of the guys that we kick it with outside at the bars or whatever the case may be, so yeah, I mean, I think you could be on to something with that, and I think you might have alluded to this a little bit too. I think a lot of it is clout driven. As you said, he's been the chosen one for so long and when you've been the chosen one for so long, that also comes with a lot of people that don't want you to fulfill that and say anything in their power when it comes to your performance and what have you to make their case that you're not fulfilling that. So that's just kind of what comes with the territory. As you said, this stuff starts early. I think we started hearing about Trevor Lawrence, maybe ninth grade, you know, at least starting here in Whispers of like, okay, this kid looks like a prototypical NFL quarterback. It might have been out of middle school, like it could have been, but I think it was like early in his high school career, if I'm not mistaken. But yeah, I think a lot of it's cloud driven. A lot of people don't want him to fulfill what we've been saying he is for the longest, don't want him to be the chosen one or or franchise changing quarterback or whatever the case may be. And I think the other part of it too, is the lack of exposure to him, which that's not to me. That's not an excuse for those who doubt Trevor Lawrence, because NFL plus is freaking what 799. All right, so you can go back and get NFL plus and check out the, even if you don't have time to. You know, check out the full game film, go to the condensed version and watch a quarter or two of the man. So that's not even an excuse, but I think that's part of it is a lack, you know, a lack of seeing him. You know we don't get a lot of national games this year. We'll get what? Three? So we're getting a little bit more of a spotlight now. But I think, you know, if they were one of these teams where maybe you know, we had five to six prime time games or something like that, people would get a little bit more exposure to him. But I think really more so than that is more so kind of cloud driven in terms of what people have to say about him. But I just thought that would be a fantastic question for the podcast because it kind of got a lot of interaction. And yeah, man, I'm a regardless man. I'm glad we got him. You know I'm one of his biggest supporters, but glad we got him and, as you said, you know we kind of talked that beforehand, about it beforehand on the last episode, and then you actually brought into it, brought it into the podcast. But yeah, man, like when you look around the league it could be way worse. And then when you look at it from the flip side, a lot of these teams that we mentioned in terms of that, you know, have quarterbacks that aren't performing well. They would say in a heartbeat that they would take Trevor Lawrence right. You know, if Trevor Lawrence was I'll put it this way if Trevor Lawrence was coming on the season where he'd be a free agent and he was performing as he would, you'll see a lot of tweets about Trevor Lawrence is coming to my team, trevor Lawrence is coming to my team. Sadly, trevor Lawrence is going to be with this team in this year. You know, if he was a free agent, but yet when it comes to how he's performing with the Jacksonville Jaguars, he's overrated this, that and the other. That's just kind of how it goes in the Twitter realm. But yeah, man, just wanted to bring that question up, man. I think it would have made good content. We'll see if that helps this episode get any more listens. But yeah, just felt like I wanted to ask you that one man. But we can go ahead and shut it down for the night.
Speaker 1:
49:34
Really quick, jay. It baffles me that people can watch fans of this team that are detractors, that people can have watched Blaine Gabbard and Blake Bortles play quarterback and think that what Trevor Lawrence is doing is the same thing. Even when Trevor Lawrence makes mistakes, they don't look like Blake Bortles mistakes or Blaine Gabbard mistakes right. It just doesn't make any sense that people think that it could possibly even be in the same universe of what we have seen this franchise roll out there quarterback in the past.
Speaker 2:
50:10
No, no, these aren't pick sixes that he's throwing. You know, last year you know he had a few where he threw picks and and they could have been touched now and they led to no points. But these aren't pick sixes like we seen with and I've been out there sweating bullets watching Blaine Gabbard throw these and Blake Bortles both of them. So these aren't those types of situations. And again, he has the ability that neither one of those quarterbacks had these, this ability, but he has the ability, ability to recover from these mistakes. That's something we're seeing. That's why, like it's like, the doubters aren't making sense because, just as sure as he might have a fumble or he might have a play where he screws up tremendously on the next drive or two drives later, he's getting the Jaguars back down the field. That ability to recover from mistakes is something you can't take for granted in this league and you know it's only a matter of time, I would hope, before he's recovering from those mistakes and turning them into more so touchdowns than you know, whatever else, sweeping it in field goals or no points, or whatever the case may be.
Speaker 1:
51:16
Yeah, didn't Blake Bortles throw an interception off of like a? He hit the chief's player in the helmet? Not one time again, man. There's so many, so many bad memories with these quarterbacks, man. Again, to look at what Trevor is doing and think that it's the same thing is wild. But yeah, jay, another really great episode here and it's great to again talk about a win back to back weeks. As we head back home to the bank at three and two and welcome in the division rival Indianapolis Colts, we'll wrap up the series with them early, as there will be their second game. Obviously, the Colts will be coming into the game also three and two, as they beat the Tennessee Titans here today. So it'll be an interesting division matchup. Again, it's looking like it's going to be Gardner Minshew versus Trevor Lawrence. So hey, for those of you that still wish Minshew was a quarterback, you'll get a one to one comparison of next week and then you know, we'll see how that conversation goes after that. But, folks, thank you so much for joining us. Once again, make sure to check out the link tree link. In the show notes of the episode. You'll find all of our social media pages the personal and the podcast Twitter page, the website touchdownjagwarrascom and the link to download the Seek Yeek app. Save yourself $20. Get yourself some tickets for that game coming up here next weekend and use our promo code touchdownjagwars. Folks, that is my cohost, james Johnson. I am Phil Smith, and do not forget to tune in to Touchdown Jaguars for every Jaguar touchdown and we will see you next week.
