[0:00] Music.
[0:14] What in the world is going on my name is brent the crazy one allen for a second i thought you forgot your name a great way to start you're like my name is shoot something uh king arthur.
[1:00] Me i'm jeff akin brent and i used to be star trek podcasters we watched babylon 5 for the first time and that changed stuff for us big time enough so like brent said we're watching this for the second time because Babylon five is one of those shows that is literally two shows in one. There's the first time show and there's the second time show. And it's awesome that you're here joining us for our second time through. I really do feel like this is an entirely different thing doing this the second time around. Absolutely.
[1:30] Absolutely. Hey, listen, along with watching this the second time around though, Jeff, just like we did it the first time, we are still searching for those sci-fi messages that we find within the series. Cause that's what we do. We're asking questions like, what is this episode trying to tell us? We're also reading JMS's own words and going, oh, that's what he was trying to tell us. See how close we got. And, you know, we're looking for things like things to give us hope that things will be better in the future, mirrors to society.
[1:56] Tell us how to be better human beings to one another. Now, that being said, warning to everyone out there from this point forward, this show will be and may be and absolutely will be full of spoilers. We could talk about anything from any episode in any season, in any franchise, in any spinoff, in any book, in any comic book, in any extra source material, from anything throughout the entire Babylon 5 canon or not canon or whatever. So if you have not been through this great series for the first time yourself, we beg you, and we wouldn't normally tell you to stop, but we're telling you right now, do yourself a favor. Stop listening to this, go back in our catalog and join us for our first watch that was completely spoiler free. Thank you so much to the folks out there who helped keep us spoiler free. And then once you have gone through that, come back and join Jeff and I right here as we do the second watch, because we promise you guys are going to find a lot out of it too. Absolutely. You will. We're watching by any means necessary for the second time tonight. Do you Brent remember what you thought about this one? You know, my memory.
[3:05] Says that I thought fairly highly of this episode. Yeah. A lot of what I – I give this one a lot of flack – not a lot of flack. I give it a lot of grace because we also recognize early 90s sci-fi season one, season two. We know it's not good. So I give it a lot of – the things that we would normally nitpick, just whatever. It's just season one stuff. But the episode I remember really enjoying. That was my memory of it. what I mostly remember is I loved how Sinclair solved the issue at the end. And here's the thing, Jeff, I don't even remember what he did. Like, I don't know what he actually did, but what I know is that he, he outsmarted and out thought the other guy. And he came up with a solution that was unique, that was within the rules and all that sort of stuff. And it really, this was the episode that for me defined and encapsulated who I think of Jeffrey Sinclair is when I think of him.
[4:06] And to the point where I'm kind of like, it's a Sinclair answer. It's like, you know, Sheridan would do like, this is the one thing Sinclair would do. Like, this is the episode that that comes from. That's my memory of this episode, Jeff. How about you? What do you remember about this episode? I don't remember liking this one very much. I think that I got really hung up on the uh, the Zento union storyline on this as I shared, I'm pretty sure I shared it in the first time episode, but I, that was a big part of my world for a long time was helping, you know, negotiate collective bargaining agreements and stuff. And I'm like, this is not a great portrayal. Uh, Zento who, um, which is just, that's epic. What's going on behind you right there. That is well done.
[4:47] I am so good. I love that. This might be my favorite one we've done so far for the audio listeners i have a different picture from the episode we're watching that sits behind me, usually it's somebody who's like staring over my shoulder because it takes up like half my background this particular one i just wanted it's zinto with super bugged out eyes looking all sorts of creepy and he's staring right at me the whole time so good and i remember both of us but myself especially what like this is the thing i think we said multiple times oh what Jakar's like a religious guy all of a sudden where'd this come from that was this episode yeah yeah yeah and we we caught it from so many people commenting like.
[5:29] Well, of course he's a religious icon. How could, you don't know everything about this guy yet. And you and I are both sitting there like, dude, we're 12 episodes in. You haven't given us one clue that he's a religious icon or that he's a religious guy in any way, shape, or form to this point. No, you pulled this out of left field and you just happen to know where he becomes. Which, by the way, you know where he becomes? He becomes a prophet of his own dang religion. Exactly. Writing his own damn scriptures. It's amazing what he becomes. But at this point, we're like, this is such a villainy thing. Oh, look how religious I am because I'm a man of the whole thing. So I don't remember having a very fond memory of this episode. Well, Jeff, that's what you remember. This is what I remember. I went back and listened to our original episode. Would you like to know what we actually said about this episode? Oh, yeah. I'm dying to know. You and I both said the same thing. And I'm going to quote myself on this one. This is one that I would have loved to have just watched Star Trek instead.
[6:27] We did not like this episode. I bet people loved it when you said that. They were all about it. Oh, they lit up on us. Oh, yeah. I honestly, listening back on the second time, I kind of lit up at us. Really? Listen, guys, I know it was tough to listen to us go through it. Jeff and I have a rule. We're going to be true about where we are, but all I want to do is just be like, hey, listen, just stay with us. Stay with us. Also, we get it. Jeff and I understand. We really do it now at this point. Anyway, so yeah, neither one of us liked this episode really at all. The one part of this episode you and I both absolutely agreed on that we did love was Londo and Jakar. Because why would you not? This is the episode where we get the gif of Londo going, dooooo, you know, where he's waving his fingers from the elevator and the whole Jaquan-eth thing.
[7:17] Um, yeah, we just, it was, we're like, it stole the episode and it was like the one good part of the whole thing. Now, Jeff, I went back and listened to everything. Um, that's what we said. I know you've done some research. You've done some scouring of the lurker's guide and other sources and stuff. Did you find out anything interesting about this episode from JMS himself or someone else connected to the show? You know, not, not a lot. Actually, this one was, was pretty light. I've got, uh, at least one that I want to save for during the episode itself when it comes up but there were two that that kind of came up one of them uh that i don't think we had any idea about this the first time around okay but nearly all of the production crew appear in this episode at various spots oh yeah the guy yelling i say we strike is uh the director jim johnston and john flynn um and then it says grail was played by john flynn our director of photography So it's kind of cool. And then this was actually written, close to being written by JMS. It was written by his wife. Was it? Yeah. And so he talks a bit about that. He says, Catherine's last name is Drennan and her full credit is Catherine M. Drennan, not Straczynski. She is my spousal over unit.
[8:31] Spousal over unit. And he says, uh, that's an accurate description, man. I got to tell you, like he says, absent a collaboration on a series of articles they did, they won't collaborate ever. In fact, he doesn't collaborate with any writer that, uh, works on his show. So those were pretty interesting, but that's, uh, that's kind of what we got out of, uh, out of the mouth of JMS this week. So it is important episode. That's gotta be really deep. It has to be. It has to be. I, to be honest, I'm eager to watch it just because this is what my appetite talking about it the first time and everything. So what do you say? We, uh, we do it. Let's get into it. Cool. It's all right. Well, you're that ear. You were that I'm getting for those of us joining us for the first time. The way this works is we're going to watch the episode right here, right now. If you're on YouTube, you're going to see the cut up version of it. The reaction videos, sort of a setup. If you want the entire unedited version, you can get that over to our Patreon page at patreon.com slash Babylon five first, the number five in the word first. And Hey, if you're listening to the audio of this on a podcasting app, you're going to hear that reaction.
[9:41] And then you'll also hear Jeff and I on the other side, we'll meet you over there where we're going to share some new thoughts. We're going to talk about any new messages we've uncovered. And we'll talk about, you know, it's certainly throughout the course of the episode, like how our viewing of this episode changes knowing what we know about how this story goes so Jeff with that let's get into it let's do it real quick what did he call his wife his spousal overlord over unit over unit spousal over unit accessing file unacceptable we have a very perishable cargo for ambassador jakar and must deliver it immediately I'll do what I can.
[10:18] Please stand by i can i can see them sneaking a lot of the crew into this they need lots of extras that they don't normally have where the hell am i gonna get the crew we're already up to our butts out here i understand but you know how the norns can be yeah i know slide her into bay eight then we'll see what we can do thanks you know jeff one of the things you and i discussed at this moment about this was the idea that he she calls down and she's like hey can you do this and his aunt his first answer is no i can't do this like what are you doing and she's like come on i just need You know, I'm not, I'm not demanding it. I'm just seeing if you can do it. And he's like, ah, you're really busting my balls. Okay. Now here's how you're going to do it. And we're like, dude, as overworked as you are, you're still handling it. Yeah. You, you are still handled. Now it may suck, but you're still handling it. Like, you know, uh, and you had a, you had a really good response of like, uh, you teach your people to do a, uh, yes, but, or something like that. Yes. If yes, if yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so it's, yes, I can do that if you clear three more people out of here, or if you give me 30 more hours of overtime to pay my folks, or if, you know, I can do that, but here's what I need in order to make that happen, you know? But yeah, you talked about that particular moment right there. You may proceed immediately to docking bay eight. Just watching that moment, though, of the dock workers, they could use a process improvement expert come in, draw a spaghetti map and stuff, and really figure stuff out, because, yikes. Oh, I'm sure that would help them a lot.
[11:42] Music.
[11:51] That feels like such a, you don't do this under any circumstance. I've got two people trapped in there. If you don't get off fast, they're dead. Nope. And then they just died. It was the dawn of the third age. Yeah, this is out of left field. I'm sorry. There's like nothing here to say this is something he does. And I say that like with us knowing where he went, watching these last, wow, that's reminiscent of the scene in Believers with all the candles there. The light and the sky. Dude, he looks so, frankly, evil. This is, like... He looks like Satan. This is end-level boss, like, right here.
[12:30] He looks like Mumra from Thundercats. Afraid the Jaquaneth was destroyed in the accident. My drugs! So, in this moment, Jakar is more concerned about the Jaquaneth than anybody. Than people and his own folks and the ship, the station. The computer malfunction might have been caused by operator error. It's sacred. Even if that were true, what do you expect? My people have been forced to work triple shifts because we are understaffed in every area. Ms. Conley, we're not here to assist. You know, I agree with you. I find it very hard to believe that she is a dock worker. Yeah. She always strikes me as still like a supervisor who's in like an office up on an elevated platform. Those are her people. She's their like direct supervisor, direct manager. So she's representing them. Yeah. But she still strikes me as management, as supervisor level type stuff. Like shift leader maybe, but still not a doc worker. No. I'm with you on that. She's not hucking boxing. Maybe you are a doctor, but my government will want to know who is responsible for damaging our shit. Then I suggest you start with your ship's captain who panicked and fired his engines inside the Doton Bay against my direct orders. Now, don't try to blame this on us, Lieutenant Commander. We are the victims here. You lost some cargo, Ambassador. Alberto Del Vientos lost his life.
[13:53] So we're assuming that the Narn captain and anybody else on that ship's arrived? But what was our captain to do? Yeah, I think so. His ship was placed in jeopardy through no fault of his own, and he reacted. And by Jaquan, I mean to see that we are compensated for the damage. Have we ever heard by Jaquan before? Yes. No, not at this point. No, no. We hear it later, but all of this is new. We hear it a lot later. It was caused by equipment failure. I do enjoy these early season things where they just get into the nuts and bolts of the station. Several hours at least. I'm aware of that, Ms. Conley. and i've done everything i can to make the senate understand we need an increase in the station's budget yeah you talked a little bit about the position that sinclair is in here um which i which i i'm watching this through these eyes of what you said of sinclair doesn't actually have any power exactly the senate has the power he just has to relate what they're saying to him, like he's the guy who's sitting right here but he doesn't yeah he's just giving look here's what your money is and here's what you can negotiate with try to keep it as cheap as you can but like He can't actually do anything. At all. And that's the way that a lot of times this works with management in these negotiations. Truly shocking. If there is anything I can do to be of assistance, you will let me know, yes? No.
[15:06] He is just loving this man. There's no one who can have a Jaquan F delivered in time for the ceremony. Swock. Swock. That's not what I heard him just say. No. On the station, who has the phone? Well, who is it? ambassador valari what god i love that oh there it is i love it i love it i love it i love it i love it everything from a toss a little to that uh-huh this whole scene might be my favorite scene of the first season all in the budget report commander i assume the news about the budget is leaked by now so here's the thing they've been in negotiations before they struck a deal and the government just never came through on their deal i better have a separate meeting, That's a problem. Big problem. No pay raise, no money for new workers, no food. As far as the Senate's concerned, they're bound by a government contract. They can't quit and they can't go on strike. Why give them anything? Commander, we've got a problem. Surprise, surprise. In other words, we have an illegal strike on our hands. Illegal strike is not a strike. No arbiter's going to call it a strike.
[16:11] Yeah, I can really see they need more extras than they typically have in a normal episode. Stop it! Now, first of all, I don't want to hear the word strike anymore. We will hear everyone out, but let's take this one issue at a time. Okay? Now, let's remember, let's try to keep a cool head. Yeah, Garibaldi walking through here does not feel safe for him. No. What do you want here? Right. Getting out of my way would be a start. It's all right, Eduardo. Let him through. Come on, Eddie. And they're all crew so they can have lines and not get paid anything extra. I've been expecting you, Garibaldi. maybe you didn't get the message I've been tied up I've got a lot of sick workers here, you think this is funny? I actually like that response from everybody we're as serious as a rip in a space suit and we want the senate and commander Sinclair to know it you know that's a great that's a great line as serious as a rip in a space suit I don't expect them to understand the hell with your talk you got people dying out here Mr. Security Man and Sinclair wants us to talk What do you think we are, fools? Well, there's no other way to solve it than to talk. Like, what do you think is gonna happen? Yeah, I'm turning on Del Vientos in real time. Hey, we have a solution we'd like to offer. We gotta talk about it. What do you mean you gotta talk? His little brother Alberto was the one who was killed in the accident. He's taking it hard. Things are changing on Earth and not all for the best.
[17:36] You've made your point, and Earth Central will be made aware of your grievances. That was a big, big drop right there. I can't send my people back to work without some guarantees. And I can't guarantee anything while you're on strike. If you just trust me. It's the Senate who controls the money, Commander. Every time we trust them, we get kicked in the teeth. My father was shot dead during the 37 mining strikes on Ganymede. I have spent my entire life defending workers' rights, and I'm not about to stop now. You get as decent pay and equipment and hire enough workers to do the job safely. Then we return to work.
[18:03] Not a minute before. So this is one of the notes from JMS I wanted to bring up was that they just talked about the Rush Act. So it says the Rush Act was developed during the Earth-Minbari war to deal quickly and effectively with corporations or unions which were being difficult or otherwise holding up the war effort. The air traffic controllers union would be a great example of the government doing whatever it felt necessary to resolve the situation. The law grants extraordinary power to resolve any kind of strike or union action, which endangers the operation of a military base or other military operation. You know, you and I had no clue what the Rush Act actually was like. Yeah, at all. We got, we got enough of it's some legal thing that says that basically they can't, they can't strike and it's, what's going to give them legal precedents to go in and bust some heads basically. Yeah. That's all we could know. That's interesting to know. It is because I feel like it makes sense to me also that, Hey, we have this, this conflict going on, but especially at that time. And I think even now corporations are like, Hey, yeah, we'll help out, but we also need to make as much money as possible. Sure. And if we're not going to do that, we're going to, we're going to get difficult. Yeah. Texas, Alan shock in the chest. Wait, does he know? Does it say where the name came from? It doesn't, he brings up Rush Limbaugh, but he brings up Rush Limbaugh in terms of answering a question that somebody else brought up. He doesn't say definitively that it's from that.
[19:24] Burning them is insane. Name your price. You are asking for quite a sacrifice. Londo getting one over at Jakar. I don't care what Londo does later. It's just great. And friendship. These guys are so good. 50,000 commercial credits in cash in advance. That's it, I'm sorry.
[19:43] Londo's loving it. He's like, yeah. The question is, how important is your religious ceremony to you? Do you remember what Londo's next response is? Uh-uh. After this? No. Should I tell you? No, let's just let it go. Yeah, okay. Look at that look on his face. He's loving this. What?
[20:13] The two don't balance, man. No. The two don't balance. Sinclair can only kick me off the station. He might even thank me. I just want this the whole time. Right, right. What do you believe in? Is this where we find out the 10-year-old thing? Too easy an answer. Is that later? We all believe in something. You choose your name and your faith. Oh, that's much later. No, that's like season five. It's the blind forces of chance. It's him and a farewell conversation between him and Sheridan. Isn't there anything you can do to get Shaquan F before the deadline? Only one more thing, and I hate having to do it. But if that should fail, it's something I want you to do. At your service, Ambassador. Right, you want me to get my hands dirty? I am all about it. I assure you your guild is not being singled out. I assure you your guild is not being singled out. I personally understand your feelings. He's just still sore he didn't get the role of Ross in Friends. Or he didn't get, I don't know, the voice of William Shatner in the animated series.
[21:19] Babylon 5 Babylon 5 is a military installation Every piece needs to be overhauled But we don't have the money or the manpower to do it And if you won't do nothing about it You can damn well get your experts to run those ducks, If that's your response You leave me no choice but to invoke the Rush Act Yeah, he's all about it, Bring it on, We recess for the evening It's late and we're all tired It's not a good time for victory I like Sinclair's already got a little, like, got a little growth. Sinclair's tired. Uh-huh. Perhaps we'll have better luck ironing this out at a private meeting tomorrow. Workers always get shafted. It's wild, like, Sinclair's hitting this. Things are changing. It totally went over our heads the first time. We have a right to defend ourselves, Neoma. But not with violence. I beg your pardon, Commander. But if someone pushed you, wouldn't you push back?
[22:11] People push me all the time. It's my job to get pushed. You better tell that to Zento. I'll meet with Ms. Connolly at 7 as planned. But if she persists in this illegal action, the Rush Act will be put into force. Zento's here to get the Rush Act, and he's going after Sinclair also, right? That was the whole thing. I've got friends. This is a string of folks who are trying to supplant Sinclair on Babylon 5. I must speak to you immediately on a matter of the gravest importance are you telling me this is about a flower not just a flower just a flower a very symbol of my faith those of us who can't be there must still perform the ritual at the same moment a moment which is almost upon us it is the most important observance of my beliefs and it requires the jacquan eth and it doesn't come up at all ever again on this station it is my responsibility to provide i'll make a major incident out of this commander I don't like threats, Ambassador, but I'll do what I can.
[23:04] It's so fascinating watching this now, knowing that we watch it the first time, being so skeptical about Jakar and religion, but knowing where it goes, I can't think that it's a villainous thing. I'm not capable of being like, oh, he's just being a jerk about this. And you look at this and you go, this is who Jakar is. Despite what you got in your first 11 episodes, this is who Jakar is. And whatever you got in your first episodes, That's not a complete picture of who he is. It's his new performative Jakar is what we've gotten. We got one glimpse of real Jakar with Catherine Sakai and then it's been performative. And then this episode is real Jakar. And it's that thing that I talk about that I discovered while I was doing beam me up with Matt that when you when you rewatch early seasons, you don't see those characters through season one eyes. We're watching Jakar now as we saw Jakar in season five. Yeah. We're watching Londo now, as we saw Londo in season five. We're watching Sinclair now, as we saw him in season three. Like, we're not looking at these guys through these eyes, and that's why doing first watches and having people, that's really important to actually give you real good, fair feedback of where you are in that moment. So, you know, yeah, it's not all about robots blowing up, folks. Nope.
[24:25] Look. We are dorks, though. I can't force you to do this. That's where we got the second star. In the name of interstellar goodwill, not to mention peace and quiet on this station, I'm asking. Look at that outfit. My God. Look at me for this. Boy, that's something we don't ever see again. He's agreed to pay a rather steep price for it. This isn't about money, Commander. I'm pretty sure I have Christmas wrapping paper that looks like that. I'm very worried about losing face. I think my great-grandfather was buried in something like that. I think my grandmother's couch was wrapped in something like that. Still worshiping their son. Oh, how convenient. I'm sorry. But, Commander. But, Commander. If asking like a grown-up doesn't work, let me try whining. Uh-huh. Give it a shot. Same philosophy my daughter uses.
[25:10] I'm really enjoying the way they're using Sinclair to bounce through the stories. Like, we're feeling it with him. And we're feeling the wear and the bag. He's all unbuttoned and stuff. Like, this is great. Stuff it. Look at that look on his face. He's like, yes. You don't have to pander to these people anymore. I'm invoking the Rush Act as of now. You can't do that without Senate confirmation. I'll have it within the hour. Expect Mr. Garibaldi's people to be ready to arrest Ms. Connelly and any other worker who persists in this illegal activity. I think he's the worst guest actor out of the three. You think so? Oh, my God. I'm really seeing Connelly in a different light than I did the first time. Are you? Like, I still don't buy her in her role, but like I'm seeing her as being more reasonable here's what I want you to do keep an eye on Ivanova, alright watch her reaction the whole time okay.
[26:18] She has a little connect there with Sinclair, I'm gonna try to narrate this for our audio folks a little bit here many witnesses for several hours she just gave it she just gave Sinclair like a chill, commander do you have a comment on this I demand you arrest him I demand you arrest him that's enough oh little oops Ivanova had like a oh and now she's like well you've done it now look at this I love that move right there she she's like you know whatever she looks at the reporter and is like, get out of here. Like she tries to give her a civil, like. She's got her hands together, folded. She's like, yikes, go, go. This is about to happen. And Sinclair is about to issue the order and Ivanova's ready to go. She will escort any unauthorized person still present to the brig and leave him there. She's like, oh yeah. 10, nine, eight, seven, six, five, you are in peace, four, it's right to know, Commander. Three. So this, she, she looks like she's about to slap him. Yeah. And that moment walks through the door. Cause she, you know what she's doing here though? She has her commanders back.
[27:35] She has, uh, I mean, she knows Sinclair's running ragged. Yeah. She's, she tried to intervene between him and the other folks. And she's like, you better get out of here. Cause this is not going to go well. And, and when Garibaldi comes in before she even realizes it's him, And she's about to like, because she's got Sinclair's back. I love this in her. Yeah. And she's got his back because he has hers. Yeah, absolutely. And plus, hey, she's going to take care of you. This is going to happen. Yeah. But I do have to say this scene and then the scene on the Zocalo with Londo and Jakar might be two of my favorite scenes in the whole series. This is so great. I demand you arrest him. I demand you arrest him. I'm going to file a protest. I'm going to file two protests. So great. Oh, my God. We're just trying to see whose tentacle is bigger. Exactly. That's all it is. And everybody around, Ivanova, this had to have been a blast to film this scene. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Going full bore is so good. Imagine what would happen if we actually had five seasons of this, of those two together. Right? For real. Although I wouldn't trade it, but still. You are ordered to move in with your security troops and end it now.
[28:44] No negotiations, no delay. What you're asking can only end in violence. I know that, and I fear that's exactly what some people are hoping for. You know, the senator is weird to me. Yeah. Because on the one hand, you hear him, and he just sounds like he's just a bureaucrat. He's all up in the Senate's business and is for the Senate and does what the Senate's wanting to do, and he just doesn't give two blips. And then in the next breath, he's like, actually, I'm for you. And you get, why is this guy the messenger? Yeah. Is it because he oversees something where Babylon 5 falls under his personal overview? There's an oversight committee for Babylon 5. Right. And so he's like the chair of that or he's the liaison to that or whatever.
[29:30] And it's like he has this relationship with Sinclair that's more personal than it is just professional. And he's like, hey, you got to do this. You got to do this. And listen, I'm sorry. I'm sorry you got to do this because this is where we are. And he's convinced. And I think we should do this. but you've got to do it this way. I didn't, I didn't read it that way at all. He's, he's, but no, but like, he's like, he's just in both worlds. And I, I don't know what to think of this guy. I think he's in one world. I think he's in the world of I'm a politician. I'm going to get the things I want. And so earlier he's like, knock it off. This is what you have to work with. Go do this. But now that things are getting escalated and bigger, he's like, I mean, I trust you to do what needs literally 20 minutes ago. You told me to back off. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think he's just playing both sides of the corner.
[30:15] Oh yeah, this is where the Sinclair, pulling the Sinclair starts. Give me the full test. Replacement workers are already reporting to launch centers on Earth and Babylon 5 security forces. Wait, did you just hear that? Huh.
[30:30] Replacement workers are already on their way to the docks on Earth to head out to Babylon 5. Yeah. So you have more workers available that are ready to come right now. They're available and you're going to send them. and we're going to come arrest these guys and and we're going to bring these up like wait a minute well the difference is there's a net there's a net zero impact financially we're going to stop paying these people because they're on strike we're going to pay these people probably less than what we're paying these other people no no scabs and replacements like you well i don't know you you have more here here's what i in the worlds that i work in right which is more blue collar or more white collar than blue collar i'll admit but i imagine even but i know unions and how they work if you call me to go do a special assignment over there i'm getting twice the amount of money that oh but they're not calling a union they're pulling up people who aren't skilled workers who they've got like they could be prison labor they could be something maybe yeah they're throwing bodies at this just to have scabs go in and keep stuff moving they're going to save money They weren't ready to go and add more people to pay more. Yeah. Yeah. But I want to call this out right here. And Sheridan brings this up during the Earth Civil War that, you know, he talks about we don't want the Earth Force doesn't want automatons. We don't want people who just blindly follow orders.
[31:54] And what Garibaldi has been tasked with here through Sinclair, through the Senate, is to take his people and go fight this. They don't believe in it. And like every reason. And it's not just they don't believe in the order. That this isn't valid. Like they're declaring the rush act on false pretense.
[32:10] I think a thing we forget about as people is there are more of us than there are of them, them being the people in charge, just because a bunch of people sitting in Geneva, having no idea what's going on, say, go kill those people. All you have to do is say, and it stops like it stops you don't have to be like oh it sucks but let's go shoot these people yeah and i feel like if we had sci-fi teaching us this back in the early and late mid 90s uh maybe the world would look a little bit different right now because what you're saying is is that sometimes governments issue orders that are not legal well i'm gonna go further than legal because the law is words. They're not ethical, right? Just because a law is a law, we've talked about this before, right? Doesn't necessarily mean like if it is an unethical, unmoral act, if it is a law to kill people because they're different than you, you don't do it. That's not an ethical law, right? But the thing is we do. I mean, if you get, let's say, illegally fired.
[33:18] Meaning you lost your job, but not through the means that you're supposed to have to lose your job you can lose your job that's fine yeah but there's there's a process that that works and this does not go through that process but you've been notified you're fired do you show up to work the next day did you really get fired yeah can't you just be like yeah you didn't do this this is not how i get fired so right no i'm not fired i'm still here yeah you said a thing but none of the things that happen need to happen happened just saying yeah just saying you don't want to get into all that right now but yeah i'm just gonna say you you i'll put it into the show terms, garibaldi and sinclair don't have to do what they're being told just because they're being told yeah even when they're told that they have to do it because they're being told do you think.
[33:58] Because we talk a lot about pulling us we talk a lot about pulling a sinclair yeah do you think sheridan would do this or would sheridan be like take a hike hadoshi um i i think sheridan would walk the line that sinclair walks here yeah i really do until they're they're um disbanded from earth and then they're like well we're not with you anymore so screw you know um and i think sinclair would be i think an episode we would see about sheridan in season five would be him being on the other side of this now running the interstellar alliance oh yeah where he only has so much money and he is in control of that to to execute certain things and i mean we did well we did see that we did see that jeff we saw him in early episodes of season three late episodes of season three trying to run the station without earth force money and there were things that they had to do that wasn't great like i don't know kick lita out of her quarters yeah go bring a bunch of raiders and criminals in and figure out how to run a black market.
[35:01] Yeah we got to do what we got to do yeah you know come to do your master's bidding garibaldi come on you know i'm here maybe you're looking for an honest job i'm gonna ignore that i have to place you and your people under arrest don't make me do it the hard way there is no other way Ben says that Sheridan would have just nuked everybody.
[35:25] Del viento's through the first punch garibaldi's hugging up on connelly though, this third favorite thing in the universe.
[35:35] If you and miss connelly will please join me look sinclair is all buttoned up yep like this go notice notice the other thing here notice with the kind of confidence and authority that sinclair is moving right now with the because he knows what he's doing like he's got this figured out he is moving with a with a a purpose and a and a sense of control that we've not really seen him in this entire episode yeah you're right you know and i and to your point buttoned up shaved like he's ordering people to do what you know he's gonna walk right into the lion's den right here i like that moment too because he's like i'm confident i'm also a little scared out of my mind but we're gonna do this soundtrack's working hard it's doing a good job here it's underneath i like that person in the adr room going under the rush act the senate has empowered me to end this strike i'm authorized to use any means necessary correct mr zento yes any means necessary say it again i am reallocating 1.3 million credits from babylon 5's military budget to begin necessary upgrades of all dockside equipment and to start hiring additional workers. All right. Two.
[36:57] Two. I am declaring a complete amnesty for any striking worker or guild representative who has committed no other crimes during this period. Well, Del Viento's threw a punch. Can't do this. Yeah, yeah. You're right. I couldn't until you convinced the Senate to invoke the Rush Act. You should never hand someone a gun unless you're sure where they'll point at your mistake. I like that line. It didn't really fit in this particular situation, but I like that line. Okay, they addressed the Del Viento thing.
[37:30] Shake his hand. Shake his hand. There you go. Let's get back to work! Yay, we can work. You know damn well you twisted the intent of that order. And you won't get away with it. There's the eyes. That's the eyes. Stuff it. They underestimated you, Commander. I ran a check on the Jaquan F and discovered it had a chemical composition which makes it a controlled botanical substance. Illegal to possess except for legitimate medical or religious purposes. All right, Commander. You may have the Jaquan F. Thank you, Ambassador.
[38:13] I have already gotten my enjoyment from it anyway. So when we watched this the first time, Jeff, I was particularly impressed with Londo in that moment. Okay. Where this whole episode, he's just sticking it to Jakar every bit. Jakar steals his statue, and Londo's like, now wait a minute. You're going to bring this back. Finally, Sinclair's like, give it back to him. He's like, yeah, that's right. And then he you know Sinclair does the same thing like he he reads the rules looks at it and makes a call solves the issue and and Londo's Londo what did he do he didn't fight he didn't pitch a fit he didn't act like a like a like a an imbecilic two-year-old he was just like okay you can have it besides I've already gotten all the happiness out of it I could ever want because what is it he really wanted was just to screw with jacquard that's all he wanted was to screw with jacquard even got on the way out with that yeah i already got it absolutely yeah it's just you know that's a dude who's in control you know like londo played jacquard through this whole episode like here's what's wild though just to play it out because that that defines so much of their relationship they don't really care they just want to mess with each other and what that leads to is Chikar losing an eye. Londo becoming emperor.
[39:34] Like these horrible things happen to them because they stay. Londo getting a keeper. Yeah, getting a keeper on him. These horrible things happen because they've stayed within half an inch of killing each other for all this time. Yeah.
[39:45] Dude, that's the equivalent of like unbuttoning that top button on your suit. Yep. Nia called it out in the chat. She's right. Different length of years. Our years are different. Put it through. You have made new enemies. If I were you, I feel like this is something that should have come back much later. Mm-hmm. You know. I imagine it was meant to. Eyes was the first piece of it, but it was probably supposed to be. But you feel like that's something we should have gotten through season two and season three. And what was going to happen. We even led to a face-to-face with Clark, right? Just like, we've been after you this whole time. The gift of life. Oh, look, now he has followers. Oh, he's the highest ranking religious figure on the stations. He's an ambassador. That's not a religious figure, Jeff. No, he said that. He said, I am the highest ranking religious figure, religious person on this station. For these things we are thankful. Yeah, I'm not capable of seeing him as a bad guy right now. Like, I just, I cannot see it. I love that he's doing this for seven people.
[40:50] Music.
[40:56] Just let it keep going. They're like.
[41:07] I wonder how much he just was like, just sing, man. Just go. Just chant. Do your thing. All right, Brent, we've just watched By Any Means Necessary for the second time. Had quite a few conversations on the way. Is there anything you want to bring up now that we've gotten through it? You know, Jeff, a couple episodes ago, you and I decided to sort of switch up a little bit of how we do this whole thing. Where like because now the audio folk are also getting our our reaction piece where they weren't before right um so pretty much what we talk about in the episode everybody's already heard and i want to rehash all of that here i feel like i've said everything i really need to say about this episode i feel very much.
[41:48] Let me do this compared to how I felt about this episode. Now, how do I back then? How do I feel about this episode? Now? I don't mind this episode. I don't mind this episode. I don't hate this episode. I enjoyed getting through this, especially knowing where we were going. I enjoyed this watch. Maybe it's just because I had better company this time. Right. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like sometimes that changes everything. You and our council chambers, ultimately our folks out on Patreon and YouTube as well. And the audio listeners. but you know i don't mind like if i were to hear somebody come in and just just crap all over this episode it might be like it's not that bad it's actually pretty good like there's some there's some really good stuff in here also this is the first instance of real jakar that we ever see exactly and i know that they may not know that but i know that instead of going where's this jakar this is out of left field we've never seen this before yeah but it actually is kind of like.
[42:46] Listen, can we just call it what it is, Jeff? Well, maybe this is how Jakar was always planned to be. I don't know. Or this is what we call in our good old sci-fi circles a retcon. We're going to go in this direction with Jakar. That's okay, too. Let's just call it what it is, right? Because he was not a religious figure in episodes 1 through 11. No. Or 12, whatever number one. Well, you know, I don't know, man, because like. No. No, no. I keep going back to this. Don't go back and defend it now. I'm going to. He was not. He was not. No, he was not religious, but he was philosophical, spiritual. Being religious wasn't. In fact, I want to imagine, because when we first see him beginning the days of Jaquan, Jaquan over, we'll call it, or Jaquanadon. We call it Jaquanadon.
[43:42] He he was in his quarters alone with the door closed i don't think he wanted this isn't a part of his personality and and stuff he wanted out there he's celebrating jaquanadon with seven people at the end not a big congregation this is jaquan keeping himself close to the vest but because of the loss of the F and then Londo being amazingly horrible in this thing. It had to come out. In fact, it almost adds another layer to everything we saw in this episode, a layer of exposure, vulnerability, maybe even humiliation to a point that he wasn't prepared to have out there. I don't know. I'm not buying it. I'm not buying it. I think this was, this was something that maybe even now here's the thing. Is it possible that Catherine being JMS's wife had some discussions with JMS and knew, or was this even in the Bible of where Jakar was going to go? And she decided to pick up on this, or did she insert this into Jakar's character for this particular episode? Because I'll still say Londo and Jakar was the best part of this whole episode. So much so. You know, but I mean, I, I enjoyed watching Ivanova during the whole CNC sequence there, which I did not see the first time around, you know, she was, I mean, she was acting her butt off back there in little nuanced ways. You just wouldn't see, you know?
[45:09] So I, I did, I, I actually quite enjoyed this episode a lot more than I did the first time around. And I still love this, this, it's the Sinclair answer, the Sinclair response, the Sinclair method, whatever you want to call it. there it is. And I love it. How about you, Jeff? I enjoyed it more as well. I, you know, we were, we were stuck on Kemmer versus Connelly the first time we watched it. We talked last week about Cameron, not as bad, you know, when, when you take in a lot of the, the, the character choices. In fact, we just watched an episode of Stargate SG one the other day where we had this conversation about things that on their own seemed really weird, the acting choices, but then it all came around it's like oh okay that was actually brilliant i was very impressed with the actor's portrayal in this one like i i kind of get like we got kemmer and here uh connelly wasn't great but i don't see her being as uh offensive or whatever as it does but zento wow wow that guy was awful yeah yes i mean i was so i was oh so bad just his face my name is stangle puss.
[46:17] We're gonna invoke the rush act exit stage left right so bad but but it didn't ruin the episode for me i think you're right it didn't i want to say that it did the first time but i to your point the londo and jakar stuff and we enjoyed it so much the first time but knowing where it goes my god this was good that much better yeah just makes it that much better Absolutely. Did you pick up any new messages that we didn't really dive into the first time around? Jeff, we dove into everything the first time around. So no, nothing new that I saw out of here.
[46:58] I mean, I'm trying to think, is there something in Ivanova? Like, what are the new things I saw in this episode this time around? The Ivanova thing in C&C. I don't know if there's something there about, oh, having your back. Ivanova has Sinclair's back because he has her back. That's huge. And we've seen that. And Ivanova's not just trying to power trip up. That is something. She's not just trying to power trip up on him because she's looking at the girl when Sinclair is about to go off. And she's like, yo, you need to go before now. And then once Sinclair goes, she's just like.
[47:30] And, like, there's a moment she looks at Sinclair and she's like, dude, chill. Right. Yeah. I see the vein in your forehead. Chill.
[47:38] Like, she's trying to help him. And then as soon as he goes, she's like, okay, let's go, guys. We're out. you know, and she almost hit Garibaldi when he comes in. So yeah, maybe there's something there, but I don't, I don't know that I have anything new. How about you, Jeff? I think, I don't remember talking about this one, but I noticed, I'm going to steal one of your words, a beautiful juxtaposition between the two stories in this one as it was wrapping up. Right. So Garibaldi and Del Vientos, you know, they're like, Hey, you punched me in the face. I'm not going to press charges. You call it a fair fight. I'll call it a fair fight. There's so much value in letting bygones be bygones when justice has been served. And this gets back to the thing we talk about so often, justice versus vengeance. In this case, neither Earth Force, well, the B5 represented Earth Force, nor the dock workers wanted vengeance. They're like, justice has been served. We're good. We'll move forward. Done. You put Londo and Jakar in the council chambers, and Londo says, yeah, all I want is my statue back. That's it. And his head on a platter, there's no justice he's looking for. Just vengeance. But here's the thing. He doesn't mean it.
[48:48] No, he's just trying to get a rise out of Jakar. Yeah, he is. I mean, maybe he really does want to see Al-Nar and his head's on platter. Like, that may be something true. But in this case, he's just trying to get a rise out of Jakar because that's all he's been doing the whole episode. The whole time. But how often is this the case, though? Where you're like, hey, here's a reasonable solution to the problem And one person is like, oh, no, I need this thing to happen, too.
[49:13] No, here literally is justice. Here's a thing. Okay. Londo, true or false? Londo is playing Jakar like a fiddle. Oh, strong. True. That's big true. Yeah. Okay. Don't let people do that to you. Jakar allowed himself to be played. Yeah. He did. He allowed himself to be played. I mean, I have this conversation with my son all the time. Because tell you what, my boy can take it. Or my boy can give it, but he can't take it. Right. I love the kid. But he's 12 years old. He's still learning and figuring all this stuff out. I'm like, dude, your friends and stuff get on you because of how you respond. Like, they're just messing with you, dude. They're just messing with you. Like, they're bullying me. No, they're not. They're just messing with you, dude. Like, trust me, that's not bullying yet. Now, when it crosses a line, I'll let you know. But that's not it yet. Please don't send me emails, folks. Okay, look.
[50:10] Stop just okay he's fine you don't know all his stuff it's okay trust me a kid's big enough take care of himself he's fine any any messages to consolidate to put into words though out of that yeah just put a bow on this conversation don't seek justice not vengeance okay i like that one yeah i like that one i like that one sometimes messages are hard to pull out jeff there you know it's not hard to pull out though our ranking our 100 completely accurate and definitive ranking of babylon 5 season 1 for the second time jeff my friend you get to place this one our current top 5 although we've got you know a hearty list going at this point but our top 5 right now number 5 is born to the purple number 4 is parliament of dreams 3 is a sky full of stars 2 is the war prayer 1 is death walker jeff does this episode crack the top 5 for you if so if not Where does it go in the overall ranking? I want to consult our first ranking here just because I'm feeling – I'm pretty sure I know where I want to put it, and I want to see how far off it is from where we were. I think you should place it first before you look it up. Do you? Because I already know where I'm putting it. Then you should place it, and then let's look it up and see where it goes. I don't know, man. Don't let one influence the other, man. No, I already have my choice made. Then you should – okay, whatever. I don't want to tell you yet is the thing. I will trust you to know how to run this next segment. Go ahead. Thank you. I'm going to sit here and shut up. I got this. I want your head on a platter.
[51:40] Okay. So where is this even? Like a fiddle, folks. Playing him like a fiddle. Oh, my God. Maybe a ukulele. What now? Okay. So this is kind of fascinating. Okay. I really felt like where I was going to put it was going to be quite different. I want to acknowledge right up front that – well, no, no, no. Holy crap. Just tell us, Jeff. What is it? I'm so fascinated by this. I'm on the edge of my seat over here. I have no idea. That's kind of the plan. So we put this one the first time around. We ranked this at... Uh number 11 wow it's a lot higher than i would have thought given how we felt about this episode although i will remind everybody when we did our season one ranking we did it at the end of the season yeah all together we didn't do it as we went i like we're doing it right now and right so if we look at the other episodes we've watched here above it we have um death walker yeah yep and believers believers was number 10 so essentially at this point what yeah we didn't wait, wait, wait. We didn't put war prayer or a sky full of stars in the top 10 war prayers there and sky. Wow. You can tell how born to the purple parliament of dreams been out of the firing line. Those all, none of those were in the top 10 parliament of dreams was 13 born to the purple was 15. And this was number 11, number 11. So let me restate that above it was death walker, war prayer, sky full of stars and believers.
[53:08] So if we were doing this in time, it would be number five okay for us yeah and right now brent it's number five you know this has been this we have proven time and time again jeff our original ranking is the correct ranking isn't that incredible like we have not i don't think we have deviated too much from our original ranking at all so far not at all even believers we we ranked high before and i thought i was kind of surprised by it but no we were right on look at us that's that's crazy to me where'd we put mind war where'd that wind up let's see mind war is that low that's probably real it is quite low it's number 20. Where was midnight on the firing line uh 16. Wow okay all right hey listen you know what maybe our opinion changed on this episode like real quick post post.
[54:04] Because season one isn't that bad it's not season one is like if you were to listen to how we talked about this episode the first time then we said this is the 11th best episode season one is not that bad exactly exactly okay pretty wild wow look at that look at that there it is number five yeah there it is well jeff that's gonna do it for by any means necessary next week we got well i I can't say it's a brand new show. We've already seen it. New episode on deck, but we've got one we're going to watch for the second time again. Jeff, this is a big one. This is a big episode. This is the one that the chapter is named after, right? Like the season is named after, right?
[54:45] Signs Importance. We're watching Signs Importance. Jeff, true or false, you have not watched Signs Importance since we did our first watch through. That's true. I have not watched it since. Me either. Okay. Okay, because if you're going to watch one again, this would be one of the ones I think you would want to watch. There are definitely parts that I am really eager to watch and see again. I feel like, so this is an episode that I know JMS has come out and said like, hey, from season one, here are the episodes you need to watch. And there's only like four of them. And he named Signs of Importance as one of them. Yeah. And I'm trying to remember why, like my memory of this episode, I'm not entirely sure why this would be so important to watch what's the first mention of the shadows, It presages the blow up of Babylon five that we meet Morden in this one, right? We meet Morden. And I don't think you need this episode to understand what happens with Morden in the coming seasons. I think you do because why is he working with Londo? Maybe like so many foundational things get set in this upcoming episode.
[55:48] But what, you know, what doesn't matter at all, the whole eye of Centauri prime at all. And not even a little bit, none like the stuff that this episode is actually about. Not a thing. The things you would think, the things you would think that were important. Yeah. You were bringing that eye up well into the fifth season. You know why? Cause that, that, what that lady Morello was like, I was convinced when she's like, don't pluck out the eye that can't see or whatever. I was convinced it was that eye of Centauri. Cause I thought that was like the thing. And I'm really sad. We never saw it again. Cause it, we should have seen it again. At least when, if Lando had that thing in his possession, that should have been the thing that he used to justify his ascension to the to the emperor right into the throne look what i got you know or they used it against him to force him to take on the emperor ship and he didn't want you have the eye you have the thing so that's you right like so i don't know i don't know jeff huh we know what signs of importance was about but do you remember what your prediction was remember when we didn't know what it was about we played the game where we made predictions you remember what your prediction was i do and just before we went on mic we were talking about our predictions and how they're not just indicative of us trying to like weave the story together, but it's really what we were wanting to see. Like, I really hope this. And so that's mine. Uh, I thought this was going to further Sinclair's Minbari stuff going on. And that Dylan would probably find out that Sinclair knows what he knows. What did you predict?
[57:16] I said this one was going to be all about the ambassadors that basically it would foreshadow where we're going in seasons two through five. And I said that based on the knowledge that it was the title episode of the of the season. Right. I called this. This is going to be the narrative hook of the show. And so I would ask, is this the narrative hook of the show? Let's save that answer for next week. That's the question. Is it or is there are we still in the introduction stuff or the buildup? Because there is a piece that what do you want? Like, is this the thing that turns it? And if it's not here, then where is that narrative hook in the, in the structure? You know? Yeah. That'll be fun to look at next week. But I also posited a theory. We get our red yarn stuff going. My theory was, is that the Narn Centauri war was connected somehow to the Earth-Mimbari war and it was the Vorlons pulling the strings. Oh.
[58:09] Yeah. It's interesting. There was someone pulling some strings, right? Well, and the Vorlons were not innocent. No. There were no clean hands in that exchange at all. Yeah. Well, cool. This is going to be exciting when we watch this next week right here. Thanks for joining us, everybody. This has been – I've had such a great time. Brent, I'm sure you have too. Jeff, I'm sorry. Jeff, I'm sorry. It's fun. From our council chambers. Oh, yeah, yeah. I apologize. From our council chambers, our friend Delenn, speaking about next week's episode. So we have to remember to do this next week, okay? Okay.
[58:41] Signs Importance has my favorite Easter eggs. You need to pause and read the blue screens in the customs area. And I think next week, Jeff, would probably behoove us to really pay attention to as many details in the background and to really almost study this episode. It would probably behoove us to do that. Cool. That'd be fun. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. It's fine. I was just talking about how fun this has been, and you just added, like, this is a thing. That's great. I'm so glad we're doing this. This is why I love the second watch through. Totally. And I hope you all are loving it as well. If you do, leave us a rating and review. Even if you don't like it, go ahead and send us a two-star rating. It's cool. Whatever. We love that you felt so moved to go onto your little thing and share your feedback with us. That was fantastic. But if you really want to make a difference in this show and help us out a whole lot, share this show with somebody who's not watching it right now. Let's get some more eyes on Babylon 5 for the first and second times. So until next time. Hey, Jeff. Yes, Brent, what is up?
[59:45] Hey, you going to do the thing? The thing? What thing? You know, the thing. The thing. I mean, Jeff, after all, you are the most senior official of the bad nerds here. It's a thing. I am the most senior. Here, hold on. Let me just get a little incense in here. and...
[1:00:13] Music.
