Episode 355 – SharePoint Framework On-premises is a Moving Target (with Andrew Connell)

October 12, 2023

Episode Transcript

In Episode 355, Ben and Scott sit down with SharePoint developer extraordinaire Andrew Connell from Voitanos to talk about SharePoint Server Subscription Edition and some changes in SharePoint Framework (SPFX) support. You’ll definitely want to listen in to make sure that you’re falling into the “Pit of Success” for developing SPFX solutions for your on-premises installations of SharePoint.

`Note: We get into the weeds with things like version numbers between SharePoint Server Subscription Edition and the SharePoint Framework. You can use the links below to follow along.

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Show Notes

About Andrew Connell

Andrew is a web developer who loves to learn new in tech and help others learn! Microsoft has recognized me every year since 2005 with its annual MVP Award. I started teaching in 2007 in just about every way I can. During most of that time, I’ve focused on enterprise platforms like Microsoft Azure & Microsoft 365 including, SharePoint, and Microsoft Teams.

Connect with AC

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See full episode transcriptTranscript is autogenerated by AI

1 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:08,130 Welcome to episode 355 of the Microsoft Cloud IT Pro 2 00:00:08,130 --> 00:00:11,890 Podcast recorded live on September 29th, 2023. 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:17,210 This is a show about Microsoft 365 and Azure from the perspective of IT pros and 4 00:00:17,210 --> 00:00:21,450 end users where we discuss the topic or recent news and how it relates to you 5 00:00:21,860 --> 00:00:25,050 after only a short time since having him on the show the last time, 6 00:00:25,390 --> 00:00:30,090 we welcome Andrew Connell back to discuss some discoveries he made in the 7 00:00:30,090 --> 00:00:34,570 23 H two update for SharePoint server subscription edition 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,010 related to S P F X, while he's a developer. 9 00:00:38,070 --> 00:00:40,850 And S P F X is the SharePoint dev platform. 10 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,330 This discovery could also have a big impact on IT. 11 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,450 Pros that have deployed or purchased custom S P F X solutions to their 12 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,490 on-prem environment. We have a voice that joined us. Again, 13 00:00:54,490 --> 00:00:58,970 we have Andrew Connell back on the podcast with us 14 00:00:59,830 --> 00:01:02,970 to have an interesting conversation. Before that though, ac, 15 00:01:03,070 --> 00:01:05,650 do you want to introduce yourself? If people are new, 16 00:01:05,850 --> 00:01:10,210 I would imagine you've been on the show enough that most people have heard you 17 00:01:10,210 --> 00:01:13,730 and know of you, but just in case this is their first time, hey, it's always. 18 00:01:13,730 --> 00:01:17,530 Good to reach out and find new people that I haven't talked to before or 19 00:01:17,530 --> 00:01:20,730 haven't, haven't engaged with. Yeah, so thanks for having me. Again, 20 00:01:21,190 --> 00:01:25,490 I'm Andrew Connell. I am primarily a developer. 21 00:01:26,130 --> 00:01:29,010 I am a developer, I should say not primarily . I am a developer, 22 00:01:29,690 --> 00:01:33,210 specifically like a full stack developer focusing on the Microsoft 365 and Azure 23 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:37,850 side. So long history with SharePoint teams development, 24 00:01:38,650 --> 00:01:41,810 Microsoft teams development, Azure development, all that kind of stuff. 25 00:01:41,960 --> 00:01:45,930 I've been doing SharePoint for 20 some odd years. So that's my song and dance. 26 00:01:46,190 --> 00:01:48,490 And I guess you'll have like my contact info, 27 00:01:48,490 --> 00:01:51,130 easy to find me in the easy to find me online. 28 00:01:51,190 --> 00:01:52,930 You search for Andrew Connell and SharePoint, 29 00:01:52,930 --> 00:01:56,610 you'll have no problem finding me or just go to andrew connell.com or Andrew 30 00:01:56,610 --> 00:01:59,250 Connell on Twitter or on LinkedIn or whatever. I'm, I'm everywhere. 31 00:01:59,510 --> 00:02:03,490 Yes, you are everywhere. But that SharePoint development, 32 00:02:03,510 --> 00:02:07,170 so this kind of all came about, I think it was like a week ago or so, 33 00:02:07,630 --> 00:02:09,610 two weeks ago as a developer, 34 00:02:09,870 --> 00:02:14,530 you were paying attention to some release notes on 35 00:02:14,820 --> 00:02:15,653 SharePoint, 36 00:02:15,790 --> 00:02:20,770 on premises and saw something that popped up at you and 37 00:02:20,770 --> 00:02:24,210 you sent me a message and said, Hey Ben, do you know anything about this? 38 00:02:24,350 --> 00:02:26,370 And through a bunch of dialogues, 39 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:31,530 this whole topic came up that you discovered it from a developer perspective. 40 00:02:32,030 --> 00:02:34,570 And I was like, you know, from an admin perspective, 41 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,930 this is probably kind of important for admins to know as well, 42 00:02:38,540 --> 00:02:40,690 which is kind of how this show came to be. 43 00:02:41,230 --> 00:02:45,810 And Scott is completely in the dark because you and I colluded to completely 44 00:02:45,860 --> 00:02:49,210 catch Scott off guard on our topic for today. 45 00:02:49,390 --> 00:02:53,370 Can I just say though, like I'm really prepared. So I brought my ice tea today, 46 00:02:53,610 --> 00:02:57,650 , it's in my SharePoint Saturday Cleveland Glass. So I'm already, 47 00:02:57,970 --> 00:03:01,480 I have a pint of iced tea and I'm ready to sit back and just listen to the two 48 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,200 of you. I don't know, talk about SharePoint garbage. 49 00:03:04,640 --> 00:03:08,000 I should be way out of my element here because this is gonna be not only 50 00:03:08,190 --> 00:03:11,280 on-prem, which I don't touch. Mm-hmm. . 51 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,960 And it also has something to do that I, like you said, Ben, I think it's got, 52 00:03:15,350 --> 00:03:20,240 it's going to impact people who manage on-prem SharePoint 53 00:03:20,330 --> 00:03:22,960 farms, specifically SharePoint subscription edition farms, 54 00:03:23,190 --> 00:03:25,960 because an update shipped about two weeks ago. 55 00:03:26,020 --> 00:03:28,040 And if you don't know what's going on with this, 56 00:03:28,180 --> 00:03:30,920 you very well do not want to install it right now. , 57 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:32,480 you wanna wait and find out how one, 58 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,800 once Microsoft figures out what the heck they're gonna do about this, 59 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,960 because yeah, I mean I looked at it from a developer's point of view and we'll, 60 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,640 I mean, we'll dive into it. It's gonna be a little hard. 61 00:03:40,670 --> 00:03:43,000 There's a lot of version numbers gonna be thrown around here, 62 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:46,400 but I will do my best. I will tell you that if you're sit, 63 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,240 if you're not driving and you can get out a piece of paper and a pencil, 64 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,640 I will give you the timeline and you'll be able to see why, 65 00:03:53,700 --> 00:03:56,640 how things are all kind of jacked up. But if you don't, don't worry. 66 00:03:56,700 --> 00:03:57,533 I'm gonna have a, 67 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,680 I am gonna have an article on my site on my company site tonno.io, 68 00:04:01,940 --> 00:04:05,880 and I'm planning on doing a YouTube video for it as well that I'll publish. 69 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,600 I guess this will, when the, when will this go out? Early October. 70 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:09,080 When will this. 71 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,520 I don't know, how's that for a horrible answer? Good. 72 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,560 I think it'll go out like a week and a half from today. 73 00:04:15,710 --> 00:04:16,880 October 12th. There. 74 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:18,680 You go. Ask Scott. He knows what's going on. 75 00:04:18,820 --> 00:04:19,520 So this, 76 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,440 I will have an article in a video that will be live by the time this goes out. 77 00:04:23,820 --> 00:04:25,560 So you'll, so yeah, so if you, 78 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,360 if you're having trouble like tracking and all that kind of stuff and 79 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:28,560 everything, you just, you get the big piece. 80 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,840 But I'll also have an article that'll, I reference all these things as well. 81 00:04:32,060 --> 00:04:34,800 So got my notes out of the article I have to write and that's what I was gonna 82 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:35,320 talk about today. 83 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:40,240 Alright, so yeah, this all started about, I'm trying, 84 00:04:40,260 --> 00:04:42,880 I'm looking back through our messages of when you first asked me, 85 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:44,440 and I can't find it right now. It's like. 86 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:44,990 Mid-September. 87 00:04:44,990 --> 00:04:48,640 Yeah. Was this really the very first? Oh yeah. 88 00:04:49,340 --> 00:04:52,000 So you sent me a message, this was on September 15th, 89 00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:56,200 so it was like two weeks ago. You said you, you sent me a message and said, 90 00:04:56,350 --> 00:05:00,480 have you been picking through the SharePoint subscription edition 23 H two 91 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:04,880 update? And I was like, no. Do I need to, and you said, well, 92 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,640 there's a mention in the announcements and docs about bumping support 93 00:05:09,820 --> 00:05:14,600 for S P F X to, do you want me to start giving some version numbers? 94 00:05:15,390 --> 00:05:19,120 Okay, so you start here. So then you said it was an S P F X, 95 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,600 some changes to S P F X and you started throwing out a whole bunch of version 96 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:23,433 numbers to me. 97 00:05:23,580 --> 00:05:27,320 So let me set some context first and because I think it helps to understand 98 00:05:28,420 --> 00:05:30,040 why this is a, well, 99 00:05:30,350 --> 00:05:33,640 this is potentially a B F D for for enterprises. 100 00:05:33,660 --> 00:05:38,320 So a really big deal because you could install this if you're in a certain 101 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,040 state, you very well meaning that like we are fully patched, 102 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:42,873 we're fully updated, 103 00:05:42,980 --> 00:05:47,240 and we have either bought some stuff from a vendor that installed that we've 104 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:48,073 installed into our, 105 00:05:48,180 --> 00:05:52,800 our SharePoint server subscription edition tenant and or we've 106 00:05:52,950 --> 00:05:56,440 also got custom stuff that we've deployed. If you're in that scenario, 107 00:05:56,710 --> 00:06:00,080 this very well could, if you install this update, 108 00:06:00,260 --> 00:06:03,680 it could very well just break your form or break all of those components. 109 00:06:04,020 --> 00:06:07,000 And so that's why this is important. So yeah, like you said, 110 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,080 I have a couple alerts and stuff that I track to see like, you know, 111 00:06:10,100 --> 00:06:13,040 any news that goes on like classic Google alerts for a bunch of different 112 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,080 phrases that I watch. And I saw this one pop up that there was a h, 113 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,600 there was a second half update in 2023 for SharePoint server subscription 114 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:26,440 edition. Well go back and think like when SharePoint ser, 115 00:06:26,450 --> 00:06:29,600 first of all, today in SharePoint online, all of this kind of goes down, 116 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,760 goes is centers around the SharePoint framework, 117 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:36,000 which is what we use to build custom solutions for SharePoint today is the 118 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,760 recommended way of doing it. While we have a bunch of other ways we could do it, 119 00:06:39,030 --> 00:06:42,560 this is the recommended approach and this is the way it's been also recommended 120 00:06:42,740 --> 00:06:45,680 on SharePoint on-prem for a couple years as well. 121 00:06:46,020 --> 00:06:48,400 And what Microsoft today, 122 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,040 what we have in like SharePoint online is we're all the way up to version one 123 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,840 point 18 of the SharePoint framework. But on-prem versions are way behind this. 124 00:06:57,460 --> 00:07:01,280 So like SharePoint Server 2019 and SharePoint server subscription edition, 125 00:07:01,280 --> 00:07:03,960 they're on version 1.4 0.1. 126 00:07:04,660 --> 00:07:09,080 And earlier this year when Microsoft shipped the first half update for 127 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,800 S P S E, so that I'm going to, instead of saying the whole thing out, 128 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:15,760 I'll just do the shorthand way. So SharePoint server subscription edition, 129 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,360 SS P S E, they ship the first update out for this year. 130 00:07:19,540 --> 00:07:23,080 So it's referred to as 23 for 2023 and then H one. 131 00:07:23,100 --> 00:07:25,920 So for the first half of 2023. And that update, 132 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,680 they kind of surprised people where they said previously they'd said, 133 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:31,480 we're never gonna update the SharePoint framework on on-prem deployments. 134 00:07:32,180 --> 00:07:34,840 And in the update they ran, they did earlier this year, 135 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:36,680 I think it was like March or April or May, 136 00:07:37,310 --> 00:07:42,160 they said we are updating the SharePoint framework to version 1.5 0.1. 137 00:07:42,350 --> 00:07:44,840 Okay. So that's a little number to write down there. 138 00:07:44,900 --> 00:07:48,640 So 2023 H one is SharePoint framework, 1.5 0.1. 139 00:07:48,820 --> 00:07:51,400 And SharePoint Online you said was 1.8, right? 140 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:52,680 18 1.8. 141 00:07:52,740 --> 00:07:55,080 One point 18. All right. I'm throwing some of this, 142 00:07:55,180 --> 00:07:56,880 I'm throwing some of this in the chat too. Yeah. 143 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,640 I'll actually, I mean, I meant to put the chat up, that's where we were like, 144 00:07:59,860 --> 00:08:03,040 say August. Oh, well, okay. But just say that's where we, 145 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,720 that's where we are because one point 18 just came out, 146 00:08:05,860 --> 00:08:09,760 so it's really like one 17, but whatever. So when I saw this new, 147 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,080 when I saw the update drop for the blog posts from Microsoft saying that they 148 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:18,160 released H 2 20 23, that update for S P S E, 149 00:08:18,430 --> 00:08:20,560 they said that they had updated the SharePoint framework, 150 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:25,520 or specifically what they said was they added support for a new version of React 151 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:29,800 and a new version of Office UI fabric allowing developers to utilize these newer 152 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,360 components in their SharePoint framework solutions. 153 00:08:32,460 --> 00:08:35,400 So that's really all they said in terms of what they did. Now, 154 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,240 they did give a specific version of React and I'll come to in a minute, 155 00:08:38,460 --> 00:08:41,160 and a specific version of Office UI fabric that I'll come to in a minute. 156 00:08:41,540 --> 00:08:43,800 But they didn't mention what version of the SharePoint framework. 157 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,400 And so the first thing that I went to, I was like, 158 00:08:46,490 --> 00:08:48,680 which version did you guys do? I'm surprised you didn't even, 159 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:50,160 you didn't say this last time you did. 160 00:08:50,820 --> 00:08:53,320 So I started like poking around and I start, you know, 161 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,720 trying to figure it out on my own. I've kept, so I'm a, 162 00:08:55,740 --> 00:08:59,720 I'm a SharePoint framework guy as like my primary business or has been for the 163 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,920 last couple years. And so what I did is I went back and I looked at the, 164 00:09:04,700 --> 00:09:08,080 the spreadsheet that I keep for every release of the SharePoint framework and 165 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,360 what's new, what's changed, what's deprecated version dependencies, blah, 166 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,640 blah blah. And I saw that when, so one of the things that that, 167 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,360 that this update did, is it update? They said that they had, 168 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,840 they had updated the support for React Up to React version 169 00:09:22,950 --> 00:09:24,360 16. Well, 170 00:09:24,500 --> 00:09:28,720 the SharePoint framework started to support React 16 in version 171 00:09:28,980 --> 00:09:33,360 1.7 0.1 of the SharePoint framework, sorry, 1.7 0.0. 172 00:09:33,900 --> 00:09:35,120 So I'm like, okay, 173 00:09:35,180 --> 00:09:38,800 so at least the SharePoint framework probably got bumped up to 1.7 0.0, 174 00:09:39,060 --> 00:09:41,960 but then went back and looked at, well, that's okay, 175 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:42,920 so I saw you put in the chat, 176 00:09:42,950 --> 00:09:45,080 it's not totally right because that's not what Office Fabric, 177 00:09:45,380 --> 00:09:48,440 so just delete the office share fabric piece. And then I went and they said, 178 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:48,900 well, 179 00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:53,720 the other part of their release was we also updated the office UI fabric to 180 00:09:53,850 --> 00:09:58,280 react version to Office UI fabric, react to version seven. Well, 181 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,440 the SharePoint framework version that got that support, 182 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,000 that version supported was the SharePoint framework, one point 12.1. 183 00:10:05,660 --> 00:10:07,280 So I looked at this and I'm like, well, that's interesting. 184 00:10:07,340 --> 00:10:09,520 So we're in this range of, 185 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:13,880 probably they've updated the SharePoint framework to one point 12.1 so that they 186 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:15,480 could support both of these versions. 187 00:10:16,100 --> 00:10:21,080 But that's a big jump from like 1.4 0.1 to the first half update 188 00:10:21,420 --> 00:10:24,760 was 1.5 0.1, and then the next, and then saying like, 189 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,080 then they jumped all the way to one point 12.1. I'm like, holy crap, 190 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,320 people are gonna love this. That's a, that's a pretty big jump. So I went, 191 00:10:30,340 --> 00:10:32,960 and I'm still trying to pick it apart. couldn't figure it out. 192 00:10:33,460 --> 00:10:38,000 So I sent a message to some friends over on the SharePoint framework engineering 193 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,880 team, and I was like, Hey, so you guys know anything about this? What's up? 194 00:10:41,220 --> 00:10:43,560 And they came back and they're like, what? , 195 00:10:43,570 --> 00:10:45,960 we've never heard of that , that's paraphrasing. 196 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,360 That's exactly what they said. , do it again. They're like, how did you, 197 00:10:49,540 --> 00:10:50,340 how did this happen? 198 00:10:50,340 --> 00:10:52,960 So I'm gonna be a little careful on what I say because I don't think that some 199 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:54,840 stuff is kind of public. So I'm gonna be, I don't know, 200 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,400 I don't wanna throw too many people under the bus here. 201 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,280 And the story is still kind of evolving, evolving. So I'm thinking like, okay, 202 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,920 well this might make sense actually. The, the, 203 00:11:02,990 --> 00:11:05,080 when we create new SharePoint framework projects, 204 00:11:05,420 --> 00:11:07,320 use a thing called the yeoman generator to do that. 205 00:11:07,620 --> 00:11:10,880 And the last version of the yeoman generator that supported creating on-prem 206 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,720 projects was one point 12.1. So I'm thinking, okay, this tracks, 207 00:11:13,780 --> 00:11:17,040 so it probably is, this is probably one point 12.1. 208 00:11:17,260 --> 00:11:19,800 So when I asked the people on the engineering team about this, 209 00:11:20,110 --> 00:11:22,760 they weren't sure what I was talking about. And they, 210 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,800 they were not familiar with this. And so I was like, okay, 211 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:30,400 well I actually wor I worked with the guy that did the documentation, 212 00:11:30,660 --> 00:11:31,020 the, 213 00:11:31,020 --> 00:11:35,960 the SharePoint development documentation for the H one update earlier 214 00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:39,760 this year. And so I reached back out to him. So he's on a team, 215 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,680 I think he's on a team in China, I might be wrong with that, but I think he's, 216 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:44,600 I, I believe he's from China. He's in China, 217 00:11:44,660 --> 00:11:48,040 or he worked some really terrible hours in in the United States, . 218 00:11:48,340 --> 00:11:51,760 And he, so he came back, he, he responded to me and he's like, yeah, 219 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,760 so here's what we did, and I'm a little late on getting the PR to you, 220 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,200 but let me get the PR done. And so I was like, okay, 221 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,240 because one of the things I do on, and it's part of my, my work for Microsoft, 222 00:12:01,900 --> 00:12:04,640 so I don't work for Microsoft, but I do some contract work for 'em. 223 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,680 And one of those is that I review all of the updates to the developer docs and 224 00:12:08,860 --> 00:12:12,520 for SharePoint development, and I also write a lot of the docs. 225 00:12:13,380 --> 00:12:15,800 And so he's like, well, I didn't get you the pr. And I was like, well, okay. 226 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,560 So I go back and I look at the PR when the PR comes out, when he, 227 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:20,000 he tells me it's, it's up there now. 228 00:12:20,860 --> 00:12:25,840 And suffice to say it didn't answer any questions and it created 229 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:31,160 a lot more. So the PR is still public out there today. It's pub, 230 00:12:31,190 --> 00:12:35,440 it's pr uh, 92 15. It's in the SP dash dev docs. 231 00:12:36,190 --> 00:12:38,960 I'll grab a link to it and drop it in the chat for you guys. All right. 232 00:12:39,150 --> 00:12:43,440 This PR is, is still, it's live today. And it was, 233 00:12:43,470 --> 00:12:46,320 there's so much stuff in it that is like, gives you, like, 234 00:12:47,140 --> 00:12:51,040 you basically drop a lot of WFS as a SharePoint framework developer when you 235 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,840 read the details of this pr that it was so much so that I went to the guy who 236 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:58,720 actually wrote the PR and I cloned his forked repo so that when this PR was 237 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,120 deleted, I had a copy of it on my machine . He, 238 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,120 I figured that this is gonna be, this is gonna be deleted at some point. 239 00:13:03,980 --> 00:13:07,560 So the more I, the more I poked through it and the more I I, 240 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,240 I saw what was going on, there's a lot of things that scares the heck outta you. 241 00:13:11,350 --> 00:13:13,520 Okay? And I'll, I'll get to what the, the, 242 00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:18,200 what my guidance would be for people today until Microsoft kind of steps up and 243 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,400 clarifies what's going on. 244 00:13:20,460 --> 00:13:23,120 But I'll also tell you like what the implications are, uh, 245 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:24,720 at least if things stay the way they are today. 246 00:13:25,300 --> 00:13:27,400 And the problem is that this isn't like a release candidate. 247 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,320 This is like ga out in the wild. People have already started to apply this. 248 00:13:31,340 --> 00:13:35,080 So one of the things that this does is that what they talked about, 249 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,520 that they changed the version of the SharePoint framework that's included in 250 00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:44,640 23 H two to version 1.5 0.0. 251 00:13:44,900 --> 00:13:46,600 Now, if you're keeping, if you're keeping score at home, 252 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,480 I didn't say upgrade because that's actually a rollback . 253 00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:55,160 Yeah, it's, it's interesting like even the public docs today, 254 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,760 'cause some of this stuff is out there and already floating. 255 00:13:58,870 --> 00:14:03,680 It's not like we're into a calendar year, 2024, any of that stuff yet. 256 00:14:04,020 --> 00:14:08,960 So they're very explicit that they come back down to things like 257 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,640 V 1.5 or lower 1.5 0.1 to 1.5 0.0 or 258 00:14:14,890 --> 00:14:17,960 lower, which that's weird, doesn't comport, it's. 259 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:18,400 Not only weird, 260 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:21,120 but that the thing that scared the heck outta me with that one right off the 261 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:22,880 bat, when I saw that, I was like, well, hold on a minute, 262 00:14:23,350 --> 00:14:28,000 what about customers who have upgraded their projects or rolled out 1.5 0.1 263 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,480 projects and up, you know, upgraded new projects, whatever, 264 00:14:31,710 --> 00:14:36,200 that they did that off the H one update this year for S P S E that are now 265 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,040 running a newer version of the SharePoint framework than what is even existing 266 00:14:40,220 --> 00:14:42,880 on the on in H two, right? 267 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:44,960 'Cause for the last six, six months, 268 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,880 they could have been writing stuff against 1.5 0.1, right? Ever since that. 269 00:14:48,990 --> 00:14:50,440 They could have been writing stuff for it, updating it, 270 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,040 they could updated their projects, they could have bought a project, 271 00:14:53,070 --> 00:14:56,160 they could have bought a solution from one of those intranet in a box companies 272 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,320 like, uh, Velo or somebody, I'm not saying Velo did this, 273 00:14:58,340 --> 00:15:00,000 I'm just using them as example , right? 274 00:15:00,180 --> 00:15:02,280 But they could have bought something and deployed it to their environment. 275 00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:07,080 Here's the thing, when you do this, 1.5 0.1 is no longer on the SharePoint, uh, 276 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,680 S P S E. So without you changing your project, 277 00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:13,840 you have a reference in there in the, in the dependencies that say, 278 00:15:14,020 --> 00:15:17,080 go tells the SharePoint framework runtime on the page to go load this. 279 00:15:17,140 --> 00:15:21,600 And it goes out to go fetch that and pull it down from the on-prem server. 280 00:15:21,940 --> 00:15:25,120 If it doesn't exist, it's going to break, right? There's no way, there's, 281 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,720 there's no bones about it. So that's a, that right there, 282 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,000 that's a huge concern right off the bat. 283 00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:35,920 And so kinda the moral to that piece right there that is really 284 00:15:36,030 --> 00:15:40,800 confusing why they did this or what's going on is that if 285 00:15:40,860 --> 00:15:43,880 you just want, I wanted, like what I, I guess what I would tell admins on this, 286 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,840 or it pros who are who are managing these farms, 287 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,240 is if you have any customizations, 288 00:15:49,340 --> 00:15:51,320 if you have any custom SharePoint framework components, 289 00:15:51,420 --> 00:15:54,400 and that's not just the ones that you've built or you've contracted somebody 290 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,920 else to build. If you've bought a product that has any UX to it, 291 00:15:58,530 --> 00:16:02,800 SharePoint framework is the way to implement the UX changes 292 00:16:03,460 --> 00:16:05,520 inside, uh, SharePoint today. 293 00:16:06,180 --> 00:16:10,960 And so there's a pretty good chance that those tools are using the SharePoint 294 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:15,760 framework and they may have been upgraded to 1.5 0.1, and if they did, 295 00:16:15,860 --> 00:16:19,880 and you do, you upgrade to one point, well, if you upgraded H two two, 296 00:16:19,910 --> 00:16:23,200 then you're kind of screwed, right? So that's one, 297 00:16:23,740 --> 00:16:25,000 but that's not the part that like, 298 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,640 that already raised like enough of like going what in the world? It's like, 299 00:16:27,870 --> 00:16:29,880 okay, you know, earthquake, everyone stop. 300 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:31,360 Let's figure out what the heck's going on here, . 301 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,960 But there's a couple other things that make this earthquake that make like the 302 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,920 ca ca, California slide into the ocean that we're like, holy God, 303 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:37,760 what in the world just happened? 304 00:16:38,540 --> 00:16:42,520 So when you dig a little bit deeper in that pr it walks through some details 305 00:16:42,650 --> 00:16:46,200 about, now here's how you, we, well, oh, sorry, 306 00:16:46,470 --> 00:16:47,840 this raised the flag with me after, 307 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,680 after you saw this and you kinda like took stock of it. 308 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:50,880 I remember walking away from my, 309 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:53,160 from my desk after like sending the message to some people over, 310 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,120 over the engineering team, like, what's up with this? So I walked downstairs, 311 00:16:57,260 --> 00:16:59,440 go to get some more, go to let the dogs out, get some water. 312 00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:01,600 And as I'm standing outside, while the dogs were, you know, 313 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,200 walking in the grass for bed, it dawns on me. I'm like, wait a minute. 314 00:17:04,270 --> 00:17:07,760 They said that they upgraded to React 16 and to office UI fabric version, 315 00:17:07,820 --> 00:17:10,920 not version seven. They went backwards. How did they do this? 316 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:12,560 Because the SharePoint framework, , 317 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:14,040 you couldn't upgrade version of React. 318 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,360 You couldn't upgrade the fluent UI in your projects because of these dependency 319 00:17:17,360 --> 00:17:21,040 trees that they had. So I was like, how's that supposed to work? So of course, 320 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:21,880 get the dogs back in. 321 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,280 They were pretty ticked at me because they were only out for like two or three 322 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,240 minutes, ran back upstairs, start digging into it. 323 00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:29,440 And I read more about the PR and the PR says, 324 00:17:29,810 --> 00:17:31,120 walks you through all of these steps, 325 00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:36,440 how to surgically go in and to add new packages in for the office UI fabric 326 00:17:36,790 --> 00:17:40,200 into your SharePoint framework project to be able to use the newer version of 327 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:45,200 the office UI fabric and on how you can manually go through and upgrade to use a 328 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,240 newer version of React. Now, those two things, 329 00:17:47,430 --> 00:17:49,040 they're already kind of like as a, 330 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:50,860 a SharePoint F as a SharePoint framework person, 331 00:17:50,910 --> 00:17:53,680 I've known for a while and I've had the reaction when someone says they're doing 332 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,520 that, I'm going, you're way off on the reservation and your mileage may vary. 333 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,920 , Microsoft doesn't support this, so good luck. 334 00:17:59,260 --> 00:18:01,120 The fact that they're giving us guidance with this is like, 335 00:18:01,620 --> 00:18:02,880 are you guys aware that you're giving us guidance? 336 00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:08,160 But the part that really shocked me and shocked other people is that then 337 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,600 they walk you through the way that they did this was that they have you, okay, 338 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,920 so let me take a really small tangent. In a all SharePoint framework, 339 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,840 projects are, well really any kinda development project you do, 340 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:21,160 you have two different kinds of dependencies. 341 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:23,920 You've got dependencies you only use in development. So stuff like unit testing, 342 00:18:24,130 --> 00:18:27,440 build performance, whatever. 343 00:18:28,020 --> 00:18:29,920 And then you got dependencies that run in production, 344 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,240 which is we need this stuff to be able to run that, run our app. 345 00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:35,680 So we have the same thing as SharePoint framework. Well, what they did is they, 346 00:18:36,220 --> 00:18:39,880 in the production dependencies, those SharePoint framework packages were up, 347 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,720 were not updated, changed to version 1.5 0.0. 348 00:18:43,940 --> 00:18:46,920 So they walk you through, here's all the steps you do to go to 1.5 0.0. 349 00:18:47,460 --> 00:18:50,240 So that's like, okay, that's what you said in the docs. 350 00:18:50,460 --> 00:18:54,400 But then over in the dev over in the develop the development dependencies they 351 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:54,560 have, 352 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:59,560 you go modify a handful of those SharePoint framework packages to SharePoint 353 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,600 framework version 1.9 0.1. 354 00:19:02,020 --> 00:19:06,440 So not only have they changed the version of React and the version of the office 355 00:19:06,540 --> 00:19:08,600 UI fabric that are, that is, 356 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,200 that's being supported by 1.5 0.0 to a version that did that SharePoint 357 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,960 framework was never tested to be able to work with. 358 00:19:16,980 --> 00:19:20,360 But they've also gone in and they've mixed two versions of the SharePoint 359 00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:22,160 framework in the same project, 360 00:19:22,410 --> 00:19:26,120 which I can guarantee you has never been tested , 361 00:19:26,150 --> 00:19:27,960 it's never been designed to ever do this. 362 00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:32,000 I'm surprised that it even got projects working in this, in this scenario, 363 00:19:32,710 --> 00:19:35,960 much less all of the other potential effects that this could have. 364 00:19:36,430 --> 00:19:37,263 This was like. 365 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,480 I mean, one question's how well they work in this area. Like I'm, 366 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:45,960 I'm just reading through this PR and it's a mess. 367 00:19:46,190 --> 00:19:49,280 Like you are completely, like you said, uh, 368 00:19:49,430 --> 00:19:51,960 outside the bounds of normal world. 369 00:19:52,270 --> 00:19:54,840 Like let's take SharePoint framework outta the equation, right? Like, 370 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,320 like and just getting into all the linkers, the yeomen generator, 371 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:00,070 like all that stuff. 372 00:20:00,070 --> 00:20:03,440 Like you're effectively telling customers to go down the path of like, Hey, 373 00:20:03,460 --> 00:20:07,880 we have this supported way for you to get onboard the platform and by the way, 374 00:20:08,260 --> 00:20:12,640 go make a bunch of human-driven crappy decisions that are probably going to 375 00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:17,600 break you. And like, let's forget about like just typos and you know, you're, 376 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:17,920 you're s and you know, 377 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,600 your your dependencies and your configuration let alone like, 378 00:20:21,790 --> 00:20:23,640 does this stuff run? How does it work? 379 00:20:23,980 --> 00:20:27,680 And then what does supportability look like and whose responsibility is 380 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,240 supportability? Like that's always very, very hard. Like I don't, 381 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:33,160 I'm not as familiar with the way it works in SharePoint land, 382 00:20:33,500 --> 00:20:36,520 but I know just doing like storage SDKs for Azure, 383 00:20:36,590 --> 00:20:39,880 like we walk a very fine line between like, oh, 384 00:20:39,980 --> 00:20:44,160 that's an S D K problem or that's a your code problem and we really can't help 385 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,320 you with your code kind of thing. And you see things like this and it's like, 386 00:20:48,380 --> 00:20:49,640 ooh, , that's rough. 387 00:20:49,670 --> 00:20:52,880 This is just customer reported incidents in whatever flavor they are. 388 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,320 It could be GitHub issues, could be support requests, 389 00:20:56,370 --> 00:20:59,600 could be incidents that are bubbled up to engineering teams from a support 390 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,480 request. Like you don't want to do stuff like this that causes confusion and 391 00:21:05,110 --> 00:21:06,960 just becomes a C R I generator. 392 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,440 , I completely agree with you and it's, I, you know, you, 393 00:21:09,620 --> 00:21:13,240 if you poke through, when you look at the PR and if you look at like the files, 394 00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:15,440 there's a section there where you, where you, if you look through the pr, 395 00:21:15,540 --> 00:21:17,000 you can see where I've commented to the, 396 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,640 the author of the PR where it's like going, this is, look, 397 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,200 if this is what you want people to do, this is not the way to do it. It like, 398 00:21:22,270 --> 00:21:25,120 there's so many little pieces about the PR that are wrong with it. 399 00:21:25,590 --> 00:21:26,760 Like he's saying to go, 400 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,080 they're saying to go in and make changes to the package json file and change 401 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,600 specific version numbers. Unfortunately, that's not going to, 402 00:21:32,620 --> 00:21:34,880 that's not gonna do everything because if you have an existing project, 403 00:21:35,340 --> 00:21:39,320 if you've already run MPM install on it, what what it does is it download, 404 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,800 it creates a giant dependency tree based on the version numbers that are in 405 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,720 package J ss o and it saves a snapshot of that dependency tree in a separate 406 00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:52,360 file called a package lock file. And that's parallel to the package J ss o file. 407 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,080 I think it's package lock, package dash lock J ss o. 408 00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:59,920 And every future time someone goes through an N P M install it checks to see is 409 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,760 there a lock file because that's what I'm gonna use. 410 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,840 Otherwise I'm gonna generate one based off package JSS O and that way I can do 411 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,120 it on my pro, on my machine, 412 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:10,200 give you a copy of my project and I can know that you're getting all the same 413 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,040 dependencies that I, that I had. The problem is, 414 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:14,360 is that if you go do those things manually, 415 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:18,080 all you're doing is changing the package j s o file and not the lock file. 416 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:19,440 So the next time you're do an NPM install, 417 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,000 you're gonna get all the stuff that you had before you did the package JSON 418 00:22:23,070 --> 00:22:24,840 updates. So it's, it's a moot point. 419 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,360 Like the one way to fix that is just delete the lock file and regenerate it, 420 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:31,560 but he's doing it the wrong way. You should be doing it using like a script, 421 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,320 which is what I had in the, in the PR release. 422 00:22:33,900 --> 00:22:37,440 But the other thing is is like Scott write to your point that you said now you 423 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,680 know, cards on the table, this PR has not been merged, 424 00:22:39,740 --> 00:22:44,160 so it's still just a PR and it's not official docs yet, but it, 425 00:22:44,270 --> 00:22:49,000 it's a doc is so far as the stance on how do you deal with these changes for 426 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,360 a product that's already out in, in GA and is released. 427 00:22:51,420 --> 00:22:55,520 So it's kind of like straddling the line of like, is it done or not? 428 00:22:56,260 --> 00:23:00,600 The thing about it though that really got me with this PR is that it doesn't 429 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,360 read like the changes they're having you do. 430 00:23:02,390 --> 00:23:04,480 This isn't the kind of thing that you would find in a poll, 431 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,240 a poll request for official docs from a company like this. 432 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,760 This is what you would find buried in a comment on Stack Overflow or in some 433 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,200 YouTube video or like in some discord thing and saying, 434 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,480 I figured out how to do it using this. And it's like, 435 00:23:17,660 --> 00:23:20,760 you gave our c drive everyone right? Access. No, 436 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,640 that's not how you fix your security problems, right? 437 00:23:22,750 --> 00:23:23,583 When I see these, 438 00:23:23,850 --> 00:23:28,640 these are things that live in like the GitHub wikis 439 00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:32,080 for this stuff and then occasionally you come across it or somebody does 440 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,080 customer support person, they go, Hey, 441 00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,280 I followed this thing on this random wiki and you go like, oh yeah, 442 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:37,890 that was wrong. 443 00:23:37,890 --> 00:23:41,120 We'll fix it and we'll delete it and we'll bring it over here and it'll be the 444 00:23:41,140 --> 00:23:44,080 the right thing and, and and the right manifestation. 445 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,720 I wasn't even thinking about like the whole like just M B M flow and 446 00:23:49,750 --> 00:23:54,600 package locks and I mean really like at that point you're again just 447 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,600 down a weird path like you are modifying the, what, what is it? 448 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,320 Package locks are considered the manifestation of the manifest I think is the 449 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,080 way M p M documents them, which is like a good way to do it. 450 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:06,910 Like that's what it is. 451 00:24:06,910 --> 00:24:10,680 It's a semi durable record of all the things that were point in time generated 452 00:24:10,780 --> 00:24:12,680 for this project and, 453 00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:15,240 and all the various node modules and everything that came into it. 454 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,120 And now you're just gonna go and trounce it and like you said, 455 00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:19,200 the next time you, you, you, 456 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,800 you go and and do your M P M install and build it and push it out, 457 00:24:23,070 --> 00:24:24,680 it's different Again, good luck. 458 00:24:24,700 --> 00:24:27,120 That's the thing is like I, as I went back when I saw this, 459 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,920 I was picking through it more and more and I, I ra so I, 460 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,160 I asked questions back to the guy that sent me the original stuff. 461 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,720 I went asked questions back to Microsoft and well I guess it's both Microsoft 462 00:24:35,740 --> 00:24:36,140 and I, 463 00:24:36,140 --> 00:24:40,840 the way I believe it works is all of SharePoint and SharePoint framework 464 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:43,360 engineering is based out of Redmond. 465 00:24:43,460 --> 00:24:47,960 So it's based outta corporate and I believe the sustained engineering for 466 00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:51,120 on-prem is based on from a out of a team that's run, 467 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:52,560 I don't know if it's really managed, 468 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,120 but it's really run out of a team outside of Redmond. I believe it's in China, 469 00:24:57,260 --> 00:24:59,640 but this has nothing to do with the fact that something's in China, 470 00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:02,080 not in China, just it's like, I'm just saying it's two different, 471 00:25:02,220 --> 00:25:04,760 it looks like yep, they may be part of the same two different teams, 472 00:25:05,100 --> 00:25:08,440 but I can see that they're not Yeah, lowercase T not uppercase. Yes. Lowercase. 473 00:25:08,570 --> 00:25:09,030 Teams. 474 00:25:09,030 --> 00:25:10,560 Team . We already have two different teams, 475 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,400 capital T we all need to . But yeah, so it just, 476 00:25:14,430 --> 00:25:17,720 it's a little weird and when I ask a couple more questions, 477 00:25:18,550 --> 00:25:21,240 kind of was told we're working on it, 478 00:25:21,570 --> 00:25:25,560 don't merge this pr and so that's why you saw it all of a sudden got the flag, 479 00:25:25,630 --> 00:25:30,040 like the in the end review and got it flipped over to the label of don't merge 480 00:25:30,820 --> 00:25:34,000 and everybody just kind of went quiet on me and it's like that's when you just 481 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,360 kind like, oh, I think I might have just, the thing that surprised me, 482 00:25:37,820 --> 00:25:39,920 my impression is, is that they, the eng, 483 00:25:39,980 --> 00:25:43,320 the SharePoint framework engineering team learned about all this from me asking 484 00:25:43,340 --> 00:25:45,600 the questions. Like they didn't know what this was going on beforehand. 485 00:25:45,660 --> 00:25:46,960 At least that's the reactions I got. 486 00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:49,600 So that's the part that was really surprising to me. 487 00:25:49,620 --> 00:25:53,520 So like what I'm telling people today that are doing SharePoint framework stuff 488 00:25:53,540 --> 00:25:54,680 is first of all, 489 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,360 this is a mess and you really don't want to follow any of this guidance 490 00:26:00,250 --> 00:26:03,000 until Microsoft makes a statement about it. 491 00:26:03,140 --> 00:26:07,880 Or at least like follow that pr what I would suggest you do if you really want 492 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:09,120 to get on the latest and greatest stuff, 493 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,880 subscribe to the PR and just wait for changes to happen because that's gonna end 494 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:14,840 up being either, 495 00:26:14,870 --> 00:26:18,960 it's either gonna get closed and a new one's gonna take its place or there's 496 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,720 gonna be some other guidance that comes along with it. 497 00:26:20,780 --> 00:26:23,720 But that's probably gonna be like the best like change log to kind of track 498 00:26:24,010 --> 00:26:25,240 where things are happening with it. 499 00:26:25,950 --> 00:26:30,920 What I'm telling people now is that unless if you do any customizations with the 500 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,560 SharePoint framework in your environment, or if you have, 501 00:26:34,660 --> 00:26:38,600 if you purchase any third party products that you're gonna put in your 502 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,160 environment and you're on SharePoint service subscription edition, be very, 503 00:26:42,190 --> 00:26:44,000 very either don't or be very, 504 00:26:44,030 --> 00:26:48,840 very careful in considering to install H 2 20 23 H 505 00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:52,840 two for SharePoint server subscription edition because I mean, 506 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,720 as I've just gone through, you could totally wreck your, those customizations. 507 00:26:56,820 --> 00:27:00,280 It probably won't like make the, the farm isn't gonna go like belly up, 508 00:27:00,820 --> 00:27:03,120 but those customizations, that stuff isn't gonna work. It's. 509 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:05,160 Just not gonna work. What do you do? 'cause like you said, 510 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:08,080 this is already in 23 H two, 511 00:27:08,260 --> 00:27:12,760 if you've already installed 23 H two and you have a bunch of stuff that broke, 512 00:27:13,540 --> 00:27:16,160 are there any fixes at this point in time? Right. 513 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,160 Now there's nothing official for Microsoft. They basically just, 514 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,760 everything kind of went quiet. And so it's usually like when stuff goes quiet, 515 00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:25,880 it usually means that we don't have a, we don't have any guidance yet. 516 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,080 We're trying to figure out what the heck's going on and where and what the state 517 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,560 is. At least that's my interpretation. 518 00:27:30,510 --> 00:27:33,080 They haven't said anything publicly about this. 519 00:27:33,570 --> 00:27:37,040 There is another PR that uh, I think what yeah, 520 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:38,880 what someone just put in the chat that they, 521 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:40,720 someone messed up and they're trying to figure it out. 522 00:27:40,780 --> 00:27:43,680 That's kind of what my perception is on it. In fact, 523 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:48,400 there's another PR like a two or three prs after this one that came in or that's 524 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,080 still listed as open and it's flagged also as do Not merge where someone else 525 00:27:52,100 --> 00:27:56,680 was updating the docs around the h the 2023 H 526 00:27:56,900 --> 00:27:59,680 one update to put a version number in there and there. 527 00:27:59,780 --> 00:28:01,560 And it looks like Microsoft has just said, 528 00:28:02,090 --> 00:28:06,800 we're not making any changes to any developer docs about SS P S E for H 529 00:28:06,940 --> 00:28:11,440 one or H 2 20 23 while we're trying to figure this out. That's what, 530 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,480 that's how I'm interpreting this and I'm being conservative when I say that 531 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,480 there's some other stuff, but I don't feel like it's really fair to, you know, 532 00:28:18,620 --> 00:28:21,600 if you don't know what's going on, don't, don't hypothesize too much. 533 00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:25,160 So the only thing I would say is that if, if I, if, 534 00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:28,320 if a customer came to me and said, oh crap, 535 00:28:28,740 --> 00:28:31,880 we did update our projects to 1.5 0.1, we, 536 00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:37,200 and we had H 1 20 23 installed, sorry, 2020, say it again. 537 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,280 23 H one H. Yep. 538 00:28:39,540 --> 00:28:44,280 And we did upgrade everything to 1.5 0.1 and we did install 23 539 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:48,360 H two. What would you do? And unfortunately there's no way, 540 00:28:48,670 --> 00:28:53,600 there's never been a scenario where we've looked at downgrading a project and 541 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,360 for the SharePoint framework, I've never heard of someone doing that. 542 00:28:56,470 --> 00:28:58,840 It's always moving forward, not backwards, right? 543 00:28:59,140 --> 00:29:01,960 So one of the things that I would consider is, I mean, 544 00:29:02,020 --> 00:29:06,960 you could try and go back to like a good state of 1.5 0.0 545 00:29:07,100 --> 00:29:11,560 at least for now, because technically every version of the SharePoint framework, 546 00:29:11,630 --> 00:29:13,400 like when they did 1.5 0.1, 547 00:29:14,140 --> 00:29:16,680 it should have installed all prior versions. 548 00:29:16,870 --> 00:29:18,480 Like that's the way it works in SharePoint online, 549 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,240 like every version of the SharePoint frame has ever been released is is all in 550 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,160 SharePoint online. So you can run any version of the SharePoint framework, 551 00:29:24,380 --> 00:29:28,200 you can build something with any version of the SharePoint framework and deploy 552 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,640 it to SharePoint online and it works just fine. I believe it works. This, 553 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,040 I I believe the same thing is true in SharePoint on-prem, it's just the, 554 00:29:35,340 --> 00:29:37,200 the upper limit is, is much lower. 555 00:29:37,780 --> 00:29:41,280 So I would think that if you get it down to 1.5 0.0, you should be good. 556 00:29:41,430 --> 00:29:45,000 Even if you know you're running in, well, yeah, you should be good. 557 00:29:45,860 --> 00:29:50,520 The worst case scenario is that you've gotta rebuild it as a 1.5 0.0 project. 558 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,560 I absolutely would not do any of the stuff that they're talking about right now 559 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,880 about here's how you can use React 16 and here's how you can use Office UI 560 00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,880 fabric version seven. I'm like, look, 561 00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:04,120 modern day stuff we're on React 18 and in fluent UI is all the way up to version 562 00:30:04,150 --> 00:30:08,120 nine. SharePoint framework just started supporting version eight of Fluent ui. 563 00:30:08,220 --> 00:30:12,400 So I wouldn't, which is the, the successors of the office UI fabric. 564 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,400 I wouldn't do any of the stuff that that PR says about mixing and matching 565 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,360 versions and all that kind of stuff. I would just, 566 00:30:18,860 --> 00:30:23,360 let me do exactly kinda like what we did the H two H one update, 567 00:30:23,580 --> 00:30:27,960 except we're gonna try and like standardize on SharePoint framework 1.5 0.0 568 00:30:29,060 --> 00:30:31,120 and then any I S V that's out there, 569 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,680 I mean if I were them I'd be leaning hard on Microsoft and being like, 570 00:30:35,910 --> 00:30:37,120 what the heck man, 571 00:30:37,140 --> 00:30:41,040 you guys gotta tell us what to do with this because I wouldn't upgrade my, 572 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:43,520 I would not want any of my customers to do it. And they, 573 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,560 I mean they would be looking at an absolute nightmare to go back and to roll 574 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:47,393 back all their stuff. 575 00:30:50,780 --> 00:30:54,640 Do you feel overwhelmed by trying to manage your Office 365 environment? 576 00:30:54,780 --> 00:30:58,560 Are you facing unexpected issues that disrupt your company's productivity? 577 00:30:58,590 --> 00:31:02,560 Intelligent is here to help much like you take your car to the mechanic that has 578 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,800 specialized knowledge on how to best keep your car running Intelligent helps you 579 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,920 with your Microsoft Cloud environment because that's their expertise. 580 00:31:10,070 --> 00:31:14,280 Intelligent keeps up with the latest updates in the Microsoft Cloud to help keep 581 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,640 your business running smoothly and ahead of the curve. 582 00:31:16,710 --> 00:31:21,040 Whether you are a small organization with just a few users up to an organization 583 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,680 of several thousand employees, 584 00:31:22,990 --> 00:31:27,120 they want to partner with you to implement and administer your Microsoft Cloud 585 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,720 technology, visit them at intelligent.com/podcast. 586 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,680 That's I N T E L L I G I N 587 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:41,720 k.com/podcast for more information or to schedule a 30 minute 588 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,360 call to get started with them today. 589 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,080 Remember intelligent focuses on the Microsoft cloud so you can focus on your 590 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:49,273 business. 591 00:31:51,220 --> 00:31:53,880 You're in, what's theoretically a, 592 00:31:54,270 --> 00:31:57,360 I'll put it in air quotes 'cause you know, documentation , 593 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,760 but you are in a, you are in a supported state like, hey, 594 00:31:59,780 --> 00:32:02,280 at a point in time documents said go do this thing, 595 00:32:02,300 --> 00:32:05,480 you went and did the right thing. As you said, 596 00:32:05,510 --> 00:32:07,600 generally the principle is go forward, 597 00:32:07,700 --> 00:32:12,600 not go backward and even go forward is go forward without 598 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,520 breaking changes. Like, I don't know how it works over in E M P and, 599 00:32:17,540 --> 00:32:19,840 and everything they, they do like with SharePoint and Windows, 600 00:32:19,900 --> 00:32:22,160 but I can tell you like in Azure land, like I I, 601 00:32:22,270 --> 00:32:25,600 it's not upon impossible for me to introduce a breaking change in an S D K 602 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,440 without like bending over backwards and doing the right thing to make it move 603 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,520 forward. Like it really has to be the one and only path forward to get there. 604 00:32:34,100 --> 00:32:37,880 So I imagine there's also like the internal politicking of that of just how do 605 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,880 you corral like, oops, and then another oops behind it . 606 00:32:42,910 --> 00:32:45,280 Yeah. How do two oopses make a, oh yeah, 607 00:32:45,340 --> 00:32:47,320 you should go do this and be happy about it and, and, 608 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:48,680 and feel good with that decision. 609 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,200 I don't if if I was an ISV or a customer I'd be sitting back and going, 610 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,560 oh I did the right thing. Like it's your problem Microsoft. 611 00:32:56,670 --> 00:32:57,503 Like figure it out. 612 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:58,480 That's the way I would And. 613 00:32:58,480 --> 00:32:59,160 Then once you figure it out, 614 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,720 tell me Yeah and tell me better not involve me going backwards 'cause 615 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:04,760 that's not acceptable. 616 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:05,200 Well yeah, 617 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,000 I mean if anything I would think that we're gonna see a 23 H two part D, right? 618 00:33:09,110 --> 00:33:09,943 It's like , right? 619 00:33:10,100 --> 00:33:13,960 Yep. H 2 22 do one three . 620 00:33:15,090 --> 00:33:18,000 There there's the problem with our updates now, right? It's like it is a, 621 00:33:18,060 --> 00:33:20,280 it is a 2023 second half update. 622 00:33:20,540 --> 00:33:24,520 We can't have like a third half update , right? 623 00:33:25,090 --> 00:33:27,280 Right. So is there any indication, 624 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,360 I don't know that if we talked about this why they went back from 1.5 0.1 to 625 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:33,400 1.5 0.0, 626 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,040 like is there things in h So let's say a customer's 627 00:33:38,340 --> 00:33:40,320 hasn't upgraded to 1.5 0.1, 628 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,360 they still have all their solutions on 1.5 0.0 and they're on 629 00:33:44,620 --> 00:33:46,640 23 H one, 630 00:33:46,990 --> 00:33:51,760 they're obviously safe to upgrade to 23 H two because they're on 1.5 631 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,200 0.0. But why did they regress? 632 00:33:54,340 --> 00:33:58,800 Are there issues with 1.5 0.1 in 23 H one 633 00:33:59,470 --> 00:34:04,120 that are corrected in H three or 23 H 634 00:34:04,540 --> 00:34:09,160 two by going back to 1.5 0.0 if that all made sense. . 635 00:34:09,230 --> 00:34:12,880 This is the part where like this gets to be, this is, this is hard. 636 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,920 I get if you're driving and you're trying to focus on like directions and the 637 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,720 numbers we're gonna start throwing around here this, 638 00:34:18,720 --> 00:34:22,120 you're gonna get lost quick or at least I would get lost pretty quick. 639 00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:25,200 So there's, so one, let me, 640 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,040 before I answer that question and the spirit of politics, 641 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,480 let me answer a different question that I feel more comfortable answering. 642 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:31,400 . 643 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:32,233 . 644 00:34:32,260 --> 00:34:34,760 You must've been on a big debate stage this week. . 645 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:39,080 ? No, if I was, I'd be screaming at you , first of all, 646 00:34:39,700 --> 00:34:44,480 no one would've upgraded their for let's just think just about one, 647 00:34:44,690 --> 00:34:47,400 about H one. About H one, okay. Okay. Yep. 648 00:34:47,660 --> 00:34:52,480 No one would've upgraded their projects to 1.5 0.0 because prior 649 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,800 to that it was 1.4 0.1. So that was the highest we could go to is 1.4 0.1. 650 00:34:57,260 --> 00:35:01,200 And then they, when they shipped H one, we jumped all the way to 1.5 0.0. 651 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:06,080 So you skipped 1.5 0.0 Yes. When you went from between those updates. Got it. 652 00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:07,063 Okay. And. 653 00:35:07,220 --> 00:35:10,040 In fact, the SharePoint release like chronology, 654 00:35:10,380 --> 00:35:14,760 it went from 1.4 0.1 to 1.5 0.0 to 1.5 0.1 655 00:35:15,670 --> 00:35:16,370 on-prem. 656 00:35:16,370 --> 00:35:20,760 There was never a 1.5 0.0 until until the last month. 657 00:35:21,060 --> 00:35:25,440 So there was never a state where someone already had a 1.5 point project on it. 658 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,840 They either had a 1.4 0.1 or earlier. 659 00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:30,720 Or a 1.5 0.1. 660 00:35:30,820 --> 00:35:34,240 Or they would've had a 1.5 0.1. So that was, that was one thing. 661 00:35:34,750 --> 00:35:35,640 What was your other question? 662 00:35:35,860 --> 00:35:36,680 So it was kind of that, 663 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,520 and it was was like why did they go back to 1.5 0.0 from 1.5 0.1? 664 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,320 Are there issues in 1.5 0.1 that they should actually, 665 00:35:44,860 --> 00:35:47,200 and that was the one you said in the spirit of politics. 666 00:35:47,580 --> 00:35:49,640 We can forego that one if we need to. 667 00:35:49,950 --> 00:35:51,720 I've seen some stuff on a thread, but I really, 668 00:35:51,740 --> 00:35:54,760 and it's was not technically they didn't tell me it was under N D A, 669 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,200 I don't feel comfortable saying it because I'm not entirely sure if it was or 670 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,640 was not. That's fine. And so I'm not gonna say it. However, 671 00:36:01,750 --> 00:36:06,680 what I can say is that I went back and I looked and my gut said there wasn't 672 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,840 much in 1.5 0.1 compared to 1.5 0.0 back when this whole happened. And again, 673 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,640 like I have this Google sheet where I keep a list of all, like this giant list, 674 00:36:14,710 --> 00:36:18,880 it's a, it's a terrible work worksheet to try and like consume, 675 00:36:19,260 --> 00:36:21,360 but I went back and looked at it to try and see what the differences were 676 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,240 between the two. And they're very, 677 00:36:23,630 --> 00:36:28,120 very small things and the things that were different were very cloud 678 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,160 specific like Microsoft Graph or Azure AD or something like that. 679 00:36:31,700 --> 00:36:36,520 So they're really is nothing that was different between the 680 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:41,040 two versions that you're gonna feel like, oh we had a loss of this. Got it. 681 00:36:41,140 --> 00:36:43,760 The only thing you're gonna feel like if you had a loss of is if you updated 1.5 682 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,800 0.1, then you updated to H two and you're like, where did the whole framework, 683 00:36:46,860 --> 00:36:47,960 not that it works is it's not there anymore. 684 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:49,380 . 685 00:36:49,380 --> 00:36:53,000 The one thing that I would say to it though is that we always assume that they 686 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,560 would never go through and update the SharePoint framework on-prem. 687 00:36:56,780 --> 00:37:00,120 We always assume that they've told us that for, what was it, 688 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,240 2017 is when it shipped and then it was 2017, 689 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,560 February, 2017 is when the SharePoint framework V one shipped late that year 690 00:37:09,980 --> 00:37:14,240 is when a feature pack was released to let us to be able to install a SharePoint 691 00:37:14,240 --> 00:37:19,080 framework on SharePoint server 2016. So that would've been late 2017. 692 00:37:19,420 --> 00:37:24,200 And so all the way from late 2017 all the way up to March or April 693 00:37:24,220 --> 00:37:27,920 of this year, so what, six, seven years we've always been under, 694 00:37:28,170 --> 00:37:31,760 we've always been told there will be no updates to on-prem when they came out on 695 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,720 on-prem and they said we're gonna start updating the SharePoint framework and 696 00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:37,680 we're gonna do this small release first. And it's like, well that's a surprise. 697 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,960 That's, that's some good news. But with this one I get the impression, 698 00:37:42,140 --> 00:37:44,640 so I'm not, I'm gonna kind of paraphrase, kind of read between the lines. 699 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,120 So this could be right, this could be wrong, 700 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,760 but it's like kind of like based on what I know, I think, 701 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:50,600 I think it's along the, the rights, 702 00:37:50,620 --> 00:37:55,440 the spirit of what's going on is that they realize that this is gonna be harder 703 00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:56,920 to do than they thought it was. 704 00:37:57,100 --> 00:38:01,880 And there's something about 1.5 0.1 that I think that 705 00:38:02,190 --> 00:38:03,640 they thought, hey, 706 00:38:03,890 --> 00:38:07,120 let's give people a newer version of React and a newer version of Office UI 707 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,480 fabric and we can't do that with 1.5 0.1, 708 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,480 but we can do it with 1.5 0.0 and I think that's why they did it. 709 00:38:14,660 --> 00:38:19,160 Or at least that's kind of what my hunch is because everything in 1.5 0.1 710 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,720 compared to 1.5 0.0, there's nothing there. There's not much there. 711 00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:26,320 When you look at the release notes, there really isn't a whole lot there. There. 712 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:26,920 Wasn't. Got. 713 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,040 It. So it's just a, it's really confusing. In fact, 714 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,800 I'll pull the release notes up for 1.5 0.1. Wait, no, that's the wrong one. 715 00:38:33,900 --> 00:38:34,700 And while you put up, 716 00:38:34,700 --> 00:38:38,080 the other other thing that you and I had kind of talked about too is even with 717 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,360 this pr, we talked about how they gave all the, 718 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,160 that guidance for updating React and the UI fabric, 719 00:38:45,620 --> 00:38:48,400 but then the other thing you would have to be careful about is if you're on 720 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:53,360 SharePoint subscription edition and you built a solution on 1.5 0.0, 721 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:58,080 1.5 0.1 and tried to upgrade and leverage React and 722 00:38:58,100 --> 00:39:02,080 Office UI and then tried to deploy that same solution into SharePoint online, 723 00:39:02,620 --> 00:39:07,520 you could have massive mismatches because now the version of the SharePoint 724 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,200 framework and the version of React and Office UI don't line up between what's 725 00:39:11,230 --> 00:39:14,840 on-prem and what's online. So you, you really, 726 00:39:15,230 --> 00:39:19,960 even if there comes out a workaround to kind of shove these 727 00:39:19,990 --> 00:39:23,200 into the on-prem 1.5 0.0, 1.5 0.1, whatever, 728 00:39:23,740 --> 00:39:26,920 it may mean vastly different experiences if you tried to deploy the same 729 00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:30,120 solution, if you ever did go through a migration to SharePoint online. Yeah. 730 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,960 I don't, and that's one of the big reasons why I tell people just don't, 731 00:39:32,970 --> 00:39:35,000 don't do this. Like if you've got customizations right now, 732 00:39:35,450 --> 00:39:39,680 don't rush to install H two because you don't know what this is gonna do to you 733 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,200 going forward. And it's, I don't think, I mean if there's, 734 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,040 if there's any kind of a silver lining that's good about this, 735 00:39:45,550 --> 00:39:47,800 it's not like it's a destructive change. 736 00:39:48,020 --> 00:39:51,200 And what I mean by that is that it's not like it's a feature pack or something 737 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,560 or a service pack that you install that has changed like something in the 738 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,800 registry or some database thing, right? This is just like, 739 00:39:57,940 --> 00:40:00,000 it is a non-persistent kind of a thing. 740 00:40:00,030 --> 00:40:02,720 It's just that stuff is broken and when they release an update, 741 00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:04,840 all of a sudden stuff will start working again. It's kinda like, 742 00:40:05,470 --> 00:40:09,160 like earlier this week we had issues with teams where guest users were losing, 743 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:10,720 couldn't see channels and couldn't, 744 00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:15,680 were losing access to posting in in different teams and they finally fixed it. 745 00:40:15,780 --> 00:40:17,880 But the fix was all done on the team's client. 746 00:40:17,900 --> 00:40:21,840 So it's like once you shut down the team's client and restart it and it updates, 747 00:40:22,060 --> 00:40:24,080 you'll have all the fixes and it's like nothing ever happened. 748 00:40:25,060 --> 00:40:28,480 So it's kind of a thing like that. Like when they get this sorted, 749 00:40:28,930 --> 00:40:32,040 we'll be in better shape for it. My guess is that I've got to, 750 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:37,440 I assume that we're gonna see another release of the H two, the H two, yeah. 751 00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:40,880 That's going to address these things because I don't see, 752 00:40:41,190 --> 00:40:43,920 even if you just told people don't upgrade React and, 753 00:40:43,940 --> 00:40:46,400 and obviously I fabric and we just deleted that part of the pr, 754 00:40:46,910 --> 00:40:49,040 that doesn't fix the problem that you're still doing a rollback. 755 00:40:49,260 --> 00:40:50,600 And if you're doing the rollback, 756 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:53,920 I would just say like why can't you guys just go back to exactly the way it was 757 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,280 in with uh, H one, right? Well I'll keep it clean, but it's a, 758 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,440 it's a poop show . 759 00:40:59,310 --> 00:41:02,280 Well, and it's not like they haven't done that before. Like I, 760 00:41:02,450 --> 00:41:03,960 we've all been SharePoint guys forever. 761 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,360 I remember versions of 2013 and some of those cumulative updates where they 762 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,520 would push an update and like a month later they'd pull it and rerelease it 763 00:41:12,550 --> 00:41:16,080 because of stuff similar to this. Not the exact same thing, 764 00:41:16,140 --> 00:41:20,040 but inevitably something went out that should have been done differently or 765 00:41:20,140 --> 00:41:24,840 caused some issues and they have, they at least have a history of doing that, 766 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,840 pulling an update and re-releasing it. They. 767 00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:27,800 Really do. I mean it's, 768 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:31,640 it's really disappointing but it's like I get that it happens that you make an 769 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,760 you, you introduce a regression. No, all good. 770 00:41:33,780 --> 00:41:37,760 Number one to recommend people to downgrade projects in order to go through and 771 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,560 move forward. I've never seen that. Yeah, . Yeah, that's totally. 772 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,800 Wrong. It is an anti-pattern on top of another anti-pattern, 773 00:41:43,900 --> 00:41:46,440 on top of another anti-pattern and it should not be there. 774 00:41:46,590 --> 00:41:50,240 That part's not right. And I, I think really what you face here is, 775 00:41:50,820 --> 00:41:55,120 and it's a little bit like how the sausage is made for these products, 776 00:41:55,660 --> 00:42:00,480 but you kind of alluded to it earlier, there's SharePoint online, the platform, 777 00:42:00,710 --> 00:42:04,520 there's this thing SharePoint framework which has a dependency on SharePoint 778 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,960 online, but actually like, is it SharePoint? Well no, 779 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,680 it's a SharePoint framework. It's this disconnected thing. Different team. 780 00:42:10,980 --> 00:42:15,080 And then there's this thing called SharePoint server subscription edition, 781 00:42:15,290 --> 00:42:17,600 which is, well you think it's all SharePoint, right? 782 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,000 It's the same team that builds it kinda sorta of organizationally, sure. 783 00:42:21,220 --> 00:42:23,920 But really not so much. Like it's got a different roadmap, 784 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,400 it's got a different set of priorities and it's got a different set of folks 785 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:27,233 that are building it. 786 00:42:27,340 --> 00:42:29,720 And now you've got the whole SharePoint framework in the middle. 787 00:42:29,720 --> 00:42:32,680 Like how does the actual team that maintains the SharePoint framework, 788 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,280 like is their priority SharePoint server subscription edition, 789 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,200 I would hazard to guess and say no, they probably don't care. 790 00:42:39,220 --> 00:42:41,800 And mostly considered an on rails experience, right? Like, hey, 791 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,280 we told on-prem customers that it was gonna be in this state for a long time. 792 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,080 Like, oops, S P S E folks, you broke that promise. 793 00:42:48,220 --> 00:42:49,760 Go fix it and figure it out. 794 00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:54,200 And making customers bear the brunt of that. 795 00:42:54,510 --> 00:42:57,560 Like that's not right. Like somebody's gotta come up with an answer there, what, 796 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,720 whatever that answer is, but it can't be downgrade. 797 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,040 I completely agree with everything you said, Scott. I mean it was like, 798 00:43:03,140 --> 00:43:04,800 we started off as like number one, 799 00:43:04,940 --> 00:43:08,440 the big red flag here was a downgrade of a project. That's really bad. 800 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,520 Number two. Then there was the whole thing of just the reaction that I got, 801 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,040 the reaction I had that was thankfully I was, I felt, you know when you, 802 00:43:16,060 --> 00:43:20,000 you hear something and you're like going, the sky is not red, the sky's not red, 803 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,600 but someone tells you and you're like, should I go check? I'm gonna go check. 804 00:43:23,820 --> 00:43:26,360 I'm gonna go check. And so it was like when I saw this whole thing of like, 805 00:43:26,460 --> 00:43:26,840 hey look, 806 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,800 there's two different versions of the SharePoint framework that you can put in 807 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:30,760 the same project. One for building and one for actually running stuff. 808 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,800 And I'm like, I've been doing this like seven years. I'd never seen that. 809 00:43:34,020 --> 00:43:37,080 I'm like, I always thought that, like I've seen some of my students like say, 810 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,240 Hey I'm, here's my, here's my package that j ss o file. I'm like, 811 00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:41,760 well I found the problem. Let's get this part fixed. No, 812 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,360 I'm not having a problem with that. I'm like, well I don't care, but this is, 813 00:43:44,550 --> 00:43:47,960 this is very, very wrong and this could be the problem. Your car won't start. 814 00:43:48,030 --> 00:43:51,640 Well let's make sure you have wheels on it and like the gas is full and that may 815 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,400 not be the problem, but you're gonna need that. 816 00:43:53,420 --> 00:43:55,560 So let's take care of that and make sure that that's not the problem first 817 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,640 . Because that one's pretty obvious. So I, 818 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,040 when I asked the the product group that, and they were like, what? 819 00:44:00,540 --> 00:44:02,000 And I was like, okay, yeah, okay, 820 00:44:02,020 --> 00:44:04,440 so I apparently I brought this to y'all's attention. So , somebody, 821 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:05,640 lemme know what's going on. . 822 00:44:06,420 --> 00:44:09,360 That's part of it, right? Like, like the disconnected things team. 823 00:44:09,620 --> 00:44:11,520 The disconnected teams thing. It, it is hard. 824 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,880 I take a lot of flack in my role for not knowing like the way every other Azure 825 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,880 service consumes us. And I'm like, I can't, like that's not my job. . 826 00:44:20,620 --> 00:44:22,920 So there's all these dependent consumer things out there. 827 00:44:23,540 --> 00:44:25,920 The best is when other folks, and, 828 00:44:25,940 --> 00:44:29,040 and it sounds like it's a little bit like this in in SharePoint land as well, 829 00:44:29,750 --> 00:44:34,640 when other folks don't own your A P I and they kind of ape it 830 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,040 and copy it and try their best, 831 00:44:36,140 --> 00:44:40,800 but they can never keep up with the service and the actual like service owner 832 00:44:41,030 --> 00:44:44,960 side of it. And that's where you end up in these like sticky situations. 833 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:47,360 'cause somebody went down a path at some point and 834 00:44:48,860 --> 00:44:51,680 now they wanna pivot and change direction. It's like too late. 835 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:52,800 Like that's not the way to do it. 836 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,480 A new release or a new product is the way to do it. 837 00:44:55,770 --> 00:44:59,440 Don't mess and break with all this stuff that's already there. 838 00:45:00,030 --> 00:45:01,240 It's an interesting thing, 839 00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:05,760 like somebody should write a book about like the politics of multi service 840 00:45:05,790 --> 00:45:09,000 development, multi-product development at Microsoft. Like, 841 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,920 like a good like tell all someday. 'cause it is kind of crazy, 842 00:45:12,030 --> 00:45:14,400 like the internal politicking of it. And I imagine other, 843 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,840 other companies probably have the same constraints, but Oh sure. 844 00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:21,520 Microsoft is fairly unique from my experience at other companies with the way we 845 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:22,760 build and release software. . 846 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,320 I would love to see, like you read the book, the Phoenix project. Mm-hmm. 847 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:27,140 . Mm-hmm . Yeah. 848 00:45:27,140 --> 00:45:31,280 So I would love to have see someone like write, you know, that's more or less, 849 00:45:31,590 --> 00:45:34,760 it's a novel, but it's really based on like, as you're reading as a dev, 850 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,840 you're like, oh my God, this is so true. I'm glad it's written in like this. 851 00:45:37,860 --> 00:45:40,880 And it's not written like a documentary, but like, this is such a good story. 852 00:45:40,950 --> 00:45:42,720 This isn't like watching a movie about hackers. 853 00:45:42,720 --> 00:45:46,840 Like this is really like the real stuff. So I agree with you. 854 00:45:46,860 --> 00:45:49,000 I'd love to see someone write something about, you know, 855 00:45:49,110 --> 00:45:51,120 rolling out Platform Cloud, you know, 856 00:45:51,610 --> 00:45:54,680 enterprise Public clouds at scale, 857 00:45:54,940 --> 00:45:59,840 places like G C P A W SS, Azure and then, or like even a company, 858 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:00,680 like let's see what meta, 859 00:46:00,740 --> 00:46:04,080 how meta does it and let's see how like what all the stuff that OpenAI is trying 860 00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,720 to manage as well. Like let's, I love to see all that, 861 00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:07,560 the behind the scenes of it. 862 00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:08,840 Mm-hmm. , I've said that for a long time. 863 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:10,720 Like especially from an IT pro perspective, 864 00:46:10,830 --> 00:46:15,000 like to see the behind the scenes of any of these companies. 865 00:46:15,020 --> 00:46:18,760 The data centers, the networking, the rolling out different versions, 866 00:46:18,980 --> 00:46:23,720 the updating, the patching. I remember one session like, 867 00:46:23,820 --> 00:46:27,200 and this just gave me a glimpse at it. There was one session at Ignite, 868 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:31,480 like years ago that I was sitting in and it was the exchange online team. 869 00:46:31,820 --> 00:46:36,240 And they were like, yeah, we never patch an exchange server. And I'm like, huh, 870 00:46:36,340 --> 00:46:39,680 you never patch an exchange server? And they're like, no. 871 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,640 Like every two weeks we deploy brand new ones and rip out the old ones. 872 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:47,120 We don't actually make any changes to existing servers. 873 00:46:47,540 --> 00:46:52,040 We just get rid of them and put in new ones. And the type of stuff that, I mean, 874 00:46:52,180 --> 00:46:54,400 you would never do that at a small company. 875 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,360 I've never worked for a client that's like, no, 876 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,880 we don't patch our shirt servers, we just deploy new ones, 877 00:47:00,500 --> 00:47:03,640 add 'em to the farm and kill off the old ones. 878 00:47:04,350 --> 00:47:06,640 That transition from like, I mean, 879 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,800 even enterprise to like these massive clouds 880 00:47:11,500 --> 00:47:14,280 is, it is and it would, I'm with you. 881 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:19,040 I would love to see a book or a documentary that gives a really good 882 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,880 behind the scenes look, which we'll never get 'cause it's all proprietary ip. 883 00:47:24,500 --> 00:47:26,160 Or come work with me for a year, just come. 884 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:26,760 Work with you. 885 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,840 . Yeah, just sign an em, sign an employment recruitment at N D A . 886 00:47:29,850 --> 00:47:33,280 We'll, like we will chat, but come, come work with me for a year. . 887 00:47:33,500 --> 00:47:37,200 Uh, even the, even the, even the stories that I hear, like the public stories, 888 00:47:37,260 --> 00:47:40,880 but then the ones that are also under N D A, like one of my favorite ones, 889 00:47:42,020 --> 00:47:46,840 I'm not disclosing anything, but like when Markovich does this, 890 00:47:46,900 --> 00:47:50,960 one of his N D A talks like at M V P summit stuff that he'll share and like, 891 00:47:51,230 --> 00:47:54,040 even though it's in under N D A, there's stuff that's shared that I'm just like, 892 00:47:54,140 --> 00:47:55,560 wow, if this ever got out, 893 00:47:56,030 --> 00:47:58,400 like I can understand why you would not want this to get out. 894 00:47:58,540 --> 00:47:59,373 But the stuff that, 895 00:47:59,390 --> 00:48:01,600 just seeing the way that he talks about stuff and you're just like, 896 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:03,080 I don't care what it's about, 897 00:48:03,660 --> 00:48:06,240 I'm gonna tune into one of his talks because it's always gonna be something 898 00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:08,600 where he's like kinda sharing the thinking and I'm like, 899 00:48:08,720 --> 00:48:12,280 I know that this is just the tip of the iceberg, but man, I would love to, 900 00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:15,000 I'd love to just sit in the back in the corner of your office during a couple 901 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,240 meetings just to kind of just to, just to listen in and just be like, 902 00:48:18,380 --> 00:48:18,920 wow. 903 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:22,320 I think you can bid on that as part of the gift campaign. So yeah, again, 904 00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:23,960 come on, come, come on. We'll, we'll, 905 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,240 we'll give you the opportunity to spend some money to try and win that 906 00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:27,073 opportunity. And. 907 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,200 , I'm sorry, I can't afford it. I'm, look, I'm trying, 908 00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:30,720 I'm saving up for copilot licenses. 909 00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:32,520 Same. I can't do it either. . 910 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,320 , I appreciate you guys letting me, you know, having, 911 00:48:35,460 --> 00:48:37,240 let me join you guys. I thought that this would be a, 912 00:48:37,430 --> 00:48:40,280 even though it affects developers, it impacts developers, 913 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,680 but I thought it would really affect it pros and more your audience, 914 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,680 specifically people who are working on managing on on-Prem farms and SharePoint 915 00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:50,760 subscription, SharePoint server subscription edition, 916 00:48:51,430 --> 00:48:55,720 because this could really wreck somebody's weekend, month, whatever. 917 00:48:55,780 --> 00:48:56,320 So Yeah. Well, 918 00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,400 and even hearing the version numbers and all of it from a dev perspective too, 919 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:00,233 like there's, 920 00:49:00,510 --> 00:49:04,680 there's too many times I don't think the IT pros and the devs talk to each other 921 00:49:04,890 --> 00:49:07,000 about this type of stuff. The IT pros are like, 922 00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,480 how are we gonna go patch the server and something breaks they don't think to go 923 00:49:10,580 --> 00:49:13,240 ask the dev about, Hey, 924 00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:17,560 what's going on with these SharePoint framework web parts? And yeah, it's, 925 00:49:17,630 --> 00:49:21,360 it's one of those times where it's a fascinating overlap kind of between the two 926 00:49:21,660 --> 00:49:24,920 and how one can have a big impact on another one. Do. 927 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,640 You guys mind if I throw like a little plug in there real quick? No. 928 00:49:27,700 --> 00:49:28,520 No, go for. 929 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:31,840 It. So I have like, I have a hourly coaching that I do as well. 930 00:49:31,940 --> 00:49:34,040 So if you're an admin and you're looking like, oh my God, 931 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,040 is this gonna affect us? You can go to vos.ao, scroll to the bottom. 932 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,960 There's one-on-one book, a one-on-one call. I can, 933 00:49:39,980 --> 00:49:42,320 we can talk through it and I can kinda be like, yeah, don't do it. Wait. 934 00:49:42,420 --> 00:49:44,080 You give folks free consulting sometimes. 935 00:49:44,180 --> 00:49:49,120 So I would actually recommend that you were on a couple weeks ago, months ago. 936 00:49:49,240 --> 00:49:51,600 I, I, I forget the timelines for how we publish things, 937 00:49:51,940 --> 00:49:52,920 but I'll put a link in the show notes. 938 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,520 So everybody should go back and listen to episode 3 44 where we had a C on and 939 00:49:57,580 --> 00:50:02,160 we talked through and tried to rationalize the right way to 940 00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,520 approach development in the cloud around some of these Microsoft properties. 941 00:50:06,020 --> 00:50:08,960 And one of the fundamental questions we were kind of toying with was, 942 00:50:09,220 --> 00:50:14,120 should you be building SharePoint framework or teams apps or M 360 fives apps in 943 00:50:14,140 --> 00:50:17,080 the first place? So maybe go back and listen to that. 944 00:50:17,110 --> 00:50:19,920 Like if you've gotta go through this rationalization exercise anyway, 945 00:50:20,540 --> 00:50:22,280 and then once you've answered that question, 946 00:50:22,470 --> 00:50:24,520 come back and see if you need some more time with ac. 947 00:50:25,150 --> 00:50:26,840 It's interesting. We do, we're, I'm, 948 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,640 I'm teaching a class right now on teams Zap dev and, and it's like, 949 00:50:30,100 --> 00:50:33,200 do I build a web app or do I build a teams app? And I'm like, well, 950 00:50:33,350 --> 00:50:34,640 it's a big topic. We, we haven't, 951 00:50:34,830 --> 00:50:38,120 it's an eight week long class and we've been tackling it every single week that 952 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,160 someone's like, , but what if? And I'm like, okay, 953 00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,720 we're gonna just dedicate a whole week to this one time. But yeah, it. 954 00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:44,640 Depends, you know, if you go this way, this. 955 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:46,640 , oh, it totally does. It totally does. 956 00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,000 That's why everybody's usually this comes up in like a normal like workshop or 957 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,280 something that I'll do and I'm just glad that I've got like two months to go 958 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:56,440 through with this, with this group of students. And so it's like, don't worry, 959 00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,000 we'll get to that one again. Just keep, you know, 960 00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:59,400 put a feather in it by the end of the eight weeks. 961 00:50:59,420 --> 00:51:01,360 We should have a good idea of what we're gonna do. And they're like, 962 00:51:01,500 --> 00:51:04,480 so what's the easy answer? I'm like, oh, it's, it depends. I mean, yeah. 963 00:51:04,820 --> 00:51:06,080 That's always the easy answer. 964 00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:10,720 I answered a question today with that completely non dev related, 965 00:51:10,980 --> 00:51:14,800 but I was like, ask a question. Well, the easy answer is it depends. 966 00:51:14,860 --> 00:51:17,840 The consultants always say that depends. It's. 967 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,360 Never, well so many times it seems like a cap out, a cop out, but it's not. 968 00:51:20,470 --> 00:51:23,160 It's like it really does. It's like I can talk about stuff. 969 00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:24,720 Mm-hmm and you're like, oh I didn't think about this. 970 00:51:24,740 --> 00:51:27,760 And it's like, yep, sorry, I'm just like everything else. 971 00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,960 I feel like a lawyer sometimes, but the more you uncover it's like oh, 972 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,600 we got deeper into that onion like, oh look, that's on now I'm crying. . 973 00:51:35,300 --> 00:51:38,280 Yes. Well thanks, thanks for joining us again. 974 00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:40,600 That was fascinating. 975 00:51:40,860 --> 00:51:44,840 And we'll put all the links to a whole bunch of stuff we referenced to in the 976 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:45,500 show notes. 977 00:51:45,500 --> 00:51:48,560 And if you do need to listen to it a couple times to keep all your version 978 00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:50,040 numbers straight, we understand. 979 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:50,830 , 980 00:51:50,830 --> 00:51:54,000 I'll make sure I get you guys the link to the YouTube video and the YouTube and 981 00:51:54,050 --> 00:51:56,400 we'll put the article that'll really like detail and stuff. 982 00:51:56,870 --> 00:51:59,680 I'll put that in there as well and for you guys putting the show notes as well. 983 00:51:59,740 --> 00:52:03,440 So I appreciate you having me and I hope your listeners got a lot out of this. 984 00:52:03,470 --> 00:52:07,320 Anytime it's a pleasure. Well thanks and hope you all enjoy your weekend. 985 00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:07,640 Thanks. 986 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:08,473 A lot man. 987 00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:14,120 If you enjoyed the podcast, go leave us a five star rating in iTunes. 988 00:52:14,260 --> 00:52:18,960 It helps to get the word out so more it pros can learn about Office 365 and 989 00:52:18,970 --> 00:52:19,803 Azure. 990 00:52:20,100 --> 00:52:23,800 If you have any questions you want us to address on the show or feedback about 991 00:52:23,820 --> 00:52:28,280 the show, feel free to reach out via our website, Twitter, or Facebook. 992 00:52:28,540 --> 00:52:30,640 Thanks again for listening and have a great day.

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Microsoft Cloud IT Pro Podcast

Ben Stegink, Scott Hoag

On the MS Cloud IT Pro Podcast, Scott and Ben discuss the Microsoft Cloud with a focus on IT Pros. They'll discuss the latest in Microsoft 365 and Office 365 News, Azure news and talk about their experiences with managing the Microsoft Cloud as well as interview industry experts on various cloud technology. They'll cover things such as SharePoint, Exchange, Microsoft Teams, PowerShell, Azure, Azure AD, Security, Networking, Storage, and the many other technologies and products that have made their way into the Microsoft 365 suite and Azure. To stay up-to-date on the latest in Microsoft Cloud news and gain some valuable knowledge as you deploy it within your own organization, make sure to tune in every week! Find out more at msclouditpropodcast.com.

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