Episode 392 – Building Confidence In Your Microsoft Copilot Deployment with AvePoint CTO John Peluso

January 03, 2025

Episode Transcript

Welcome to Episode 392 of the Microsoft Cloud IT Pro Podcast. In this episode, Ben interviews AvePoint CTO John Peluso. Listen in as they discuss Copilot in Microsoft 365 and how to govern and gain insights on your Copilot usage in your organization.

Copilot in Microsoft 365 is becoming a critical tool to supporting modern work. As Microsoft continues to iterate and improve on Microsoft Copilot, partners such as AvePoint help to augment the administration and analytics of Copilot adoption in your organization. While Copilot enables your workforce with the tools to their jobs, Microsoft and AvePoint also provide the tools for administrators to empower their workforce quickly in a safe way. Another part of the puzzle of administering Copilot is how do you measure AI adoption in your organization, benchmark your organization against similar organizations, and understand the activity levels and adoption of Copilot?

Listen in to hear about how AI tools like Copilot and AI in general can be governed in Microsoft 365 and how you can gain insights into how to approach analyzing Copilot adoption in your organization.

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1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:04,740 Welcome to episode 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,419 392 of the Microsoft Cloud IT Pro podcast, 3 00:00:08,559 --> 00:00:11,300 recorded live from Microsoft Ignite 2024. 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,404 This is a show about Microsoft Microsoft 365 5 00:00:14,544 --> 00:00:16,785 and Azure from the perspective of IT pros 6 00:00:16,785 --> 00:00:19,024 and end users, where we discuss the topic 7 00:00:19,024 --> 00:00:20,945 or recent news and how it relates to 8 00:00:20,945 --> 00:00:22,564 you. In this episode, 9 00:00:23,024 --> 00:00:25,204 Ben sits down for an interview with AvePoint 10 00:00:25,265 --> 00:00:28,804 CTO, John Peluso, to discuss planning for Microsoft 11 00:00:28,864 --> 00:00:31,879 3 65 Copilot. They discuss how to govern 12 00:00:31,879 --> 00:00:33,880 and gain insights on your data, but also 13 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,780 how to measure Copilot usage within your organization. 14 00:00:39,559 --> 00:00:41,899 It's Ben again. We're sitting here at Microsoft 15 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,039 Ignite for another interview. And this time, we 16 00:00:44,039 --> 00:00:45,245 have JP 17 00:00:45,625 --> 00:00:46,125 from 18 00:00:46,505 --> 00:00:49,065 AvePoint. So AvePoint's been in we were just 19 00:00:49,065 --> 00:00:52,585 talking. AvePoint's been in the business of Microsoft 20 00:00:52,585 --> 00:00:55,465 365 SharePoint forever. Like, I used AvePoint back 21 00:00:55,465 --> 00:00:58,659 in the day, migrating SharePoint 2,003 to 2,007, 22 00:00:58,799 --> 00:01:00,420 that type of stuff. So 23 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:03,439 yeah. But, JP, why don't you introduce yourself, 24 00:01:03,439 --> 00:01:04,879 and then we'll dive into a little bit 25 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:07,459 of a discussion here just about Microsoft 365 26 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:09,359 and Yeah. Sounds good. Kind of even what 27 00:01:09,359 --> 00:01:11,280 you're seeing in that space. So Sure thing. 28 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:13,734 So, yeah, I'm John Paluso, JP, 29 00:01:14,114 --> 00:01:16,114 internally here at Outpoint because we got about 30 00:01:16,114 --> 00:01:18,534 9 Johns in the product team. Okay. So 31 00:01:18,674 --> 00:01:20,834 joined Outpoint about 14 years ago and have 32 00:01:20,834 --> 00:01:22,754 spent most of that time in a product 33 00:01:22,754 --> 00:01:25,509 leadership role, one form or another. And currently, 34 00:01:25,509 --> 00:01:27,829 I'm the CTO. So still working very much 35 00:01:27,829 --> 00:01:30,950 with our customers, partners, and working on the 36 00:01:31,030 --> 00:01:33,509 leading the product strategy team, but working more 37 00:01:33,509 --> 00:01:35,930 broadly across the organization, which is really interesting 38 00:01:36,629 --> 00:01:38,629 because so much of technology right now is 39 00:01:38,629 --> 00:01:40,894 changing both how we do business internally and 40 00:01:40,894 --> 00:01:43,855 how we bring innovation to customers. Right? Because 41 00:01:43,855 --> 00:01:45,534 you guys have started doing way more than 42 00:01:45,534 --> 00:01:47,474 SharePoint migrations now. Yeah. 43 00:01:48,415 --> 00:01:49,935 That's true. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, a 44 00:01:49,935 --> 00:01:51,614 blessing and curse. Right? And people say, oh, 45 00:01:51,614 --> 00:01:54,275 you're the backup company. Yeah. We kinda do 46 00:01:54,620 --> 00:01:56,060 in 20 years, we're doing a little more. 47 00:01:56,060 --> 00:01:58,620 Yeah. Yeah. And as the product or landscape 48 00:01:58,620 --> 00:02:00,460 changes like you said, it's crazy. It's one 49 00:02:00,460 --> 00:02:01,980 thing I've I would say I love and 50 00:02:01,980 --> 00:02:04,780 hate about Microsoft 365 is I feel like 51 00:02:04,780 --> 00:02:07,334 every day I wake up and something's moved, 52 00:02:07,334 --> 00:02:10,134 something's different, something works differently. As a as 53 00:02:10,134 --> 00:02:12,294 a product builder, it's really sort of been 54 00:02:12,294 --> 00:02:15,275 interesting to watch how the changes in, 55 00:02:15,655 --> 00:02:17,335 you know, not just SaaS software in general, 56 00:02:17,335 --> 00:02:19,335 but even something as central to an organization 57 00:02:19,335 --> 00:02:21,414 as Microsoft 365. You say it, right, you 58 00:02:21,414 --> 00:02:23,040 wake up, there's a button that's in a 59 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:24,879 different spot. Right? It used to be you'd 60 00:02:24,879 --> 00:02:26,400 get killed for doing that. Right? Yep. Oh, 61 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,000 I need 8 months of testing with my 62 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,159 users. Right. It's like, well, people are a 63 00:02:30,159 --> 00:02:32,400 little more resilient now. Yes. And now you 64 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,000 don't even, like, you can go look at 65 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,599 one tenant and it's one spot and another 66 00:02:35,599 --> 00:02:37,235 tenant that's somewhere else. When's the change coming? 67 00:02:37,235 --> 00:02:38,694 What's going on? Soon. 68 00:02:39,395 --> 00:02:41,555 When will then be now? Right? Soon. Yeah. 69 00:02:41,555 --> 00:02:43,155 I was doing I've I've been practicing a 70 00:02:43,155 --> 00:02:45,074 lab this week and we were going through 71 00:02:45,074 --> 00:02:47,715 the lab instructions, like testing it. And one 72 00:02:47,715 --> 00:02:49,814 person was like, oh, we need to go 73 00:02:49,875 --> 00:02:51,439 click here and here. And I'm like, no, 74 00:02:51,439 --> 00:02:52,879 it says click here and here. And we're 75 00:02:52,879 --> 00:02:54,900 like, okay, we'll just write it one way. 76 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,199 I didn't imagine. Have to explain it 2 77 00:02:57,199 --> 00:02:59,439 ways. Yeah. That's another one. Right? Documentation is 78 00:02:59,519 --> 00:03:01,519 used to be have all your documentation in 79 00:03:01,519 --> 00:03:02,959 place. Now it's like, what am I doing? 80 00:03:02,959 --> 00:03:05,894 Which which wave am I documenting? Right. So 81 00:03:05,894 --> 00:03:08,134 one of the big themes of Ignite, I 82 00:03:08,134 --> 00:03:09,574 know this is gonna be a shocker, has 83 00:03:09,574 --> 00:03:11,655 been Co pilot. Stop it. Really? Right. I 84 00:03:11,655 --> 00:03:13,414 can't believe it. Who knew? Yeah. The 3 85 00:03:13,414 --> 00:03:15,174 pillars of the keynote were Co pilot, Co 86 00:03:15,174 --> 00:03:17,254 pilot, and Co pilot. That's good. Don't forget 87 00:03:17,254 --> 00:03:18,614 the third one because it's very important to 88 00:03:18,614 --> 00:03:20,379 the first. Well, and then they threw security 89 00:03:20,379 --> 00:03:21,659 in there too. Yeah. At the end, which 90 00:03:21,659 --> 00:03:22,159 was 91 00:03:22,620 --> 00:03:24,300 good. So I'm I am kinda curious to 92 00:03:24,300 --> 00:03:25,360 talk to you. I know 93 00:03:26,540 --> 00:03:27,040 Copilot, 94 00:03:27,500 --> 00:03:28,000 security, 95 00:03:28,300 --> 00:03:28,800 compliance, 96 00:03:29,740 --> 00:03:32,379 all of that is a big topic. Yeah. 97 00:03:32,379 --> 00:03:32,879 And 98 00:03:33,474 --> 00:03:35,415 you as a software provider, obviously, 99 00:03:35,794 --> 00:03:36,294 writing 100 00:03:36,754 --> 00:03:39,715 products to work with Microsoft 365, but even 101 00:03:39,715 --> 00:03:41,875 aside from that, because of that, I guess, 102 00:03:41,875 --> 00:03:43,235 you get to work with a lot of 103 00:03:43,235 --> 00:03:45,074 different customers and you see a lot of 104 00:03:45,074 --> 00:03:47,629 different things in Microsoft 365, 105 00:03:48,009 --> 00:03:49,310 how they might be preparing 106 00:03:49,610 --> 00:03:52,169 from a security standpoint, from a compliance standpoint 107 00:03:52,250 --> 00:03:55,129 Yeah. From a governance standpoint. What are some 108 00:03:55,129 --> 00:03:55,709 of those, 109 00:03:56,009 --> 00:03:58,569 maybe like, hot topics or trends that you're 110 00:03:58,569 --> 00:03:59,530 seeing where people 111 00:04:00,025 --> 00:04:01,625 what people should be thinking about maybe as 112 00:04:01,625 --> 00:04:03,004 they're preparing for Copilot? 113 00:04:03,305 --> 00:04:05,224 Yeah. I think it is interesting and, you 114 00:04:05,224 --> 00:04:07,625 know, for perspective, you mentioned, you know, AvePoint 115 00:04:07,625 --> 00:04:09,865 started building, you know, admin tools and utilities. 116 00:04:09,865 --> 00:04:13,379 Right? Backup, migration, things like that. Yep. And 117 00:04:13,379 --> 00:04:15,060 early on about, you know, 5 years in, 118 00:04:15,060 --> 00:04:16,339 what we realized is that we had a 119 00:04:16,339 --> 00:04:18,279 lot of customers that were using our tools 120 00:04:18,420 --> 00:04:21,160 more in a strategic way to 121 00:04:21,699 --> 00:04:23,720 enable governance and security practices. 122 00:04:24,180 --> 00:04:25,540 So that kind of started us on that 123 00:04:25,540 --> 00:04:27,884 trajectory and so it's been a big focus 124 00:04:27,884 --> 00:04:29,964 area of mine for the last, 10 or 125 00:04:29,964 --> 00:04:31,824 12 years. And so, 126 00:04:32,444 --> 00:04:34,144 there is this cyclical wave 127 00:04:34,605 --> 00:04:36,605 of, you know, I think everybody on the 128 00:04:36,605 --> 00:04:38,125 floor here had the number of times I 129 00:04:38,125 --> 00:04:40,529 heard reference to the Delve, the d word. 130 00:04:41,089 --> 00:04:43,089 Right? But it's the same sort of wave 131 00:04:43,089 --> 00:04:44,769 we saw with Delve of, hey, wait a 132 00:04:44,769 --> 00:04:46,370 minute. There's all this data out there and 133 00:04:46,370 --> 00:04:48,550 I'm not sure I want it being 134 00:04:48,930 --> 00:04:50,769 surfaced and shown to people, you know, because 135 00:04:50,769 --> 00:04:53,009 I don't really know if it's and then 136 00:04:53,009 --> 00:04:55,045 we saw it again with with teams with 137 00:04:55,045 --> 00:04:57,125 the rapid, you know, ability for people to 138 00:04:57,125 --> 00:04:58,564 just sort of self serve and get whatever 139 00:04:58,564 --> 00:05:00,485 they want whenever they want it. The the 140 00:05:00,485 --> 00:05:03,045 reigns of IT was tougher and tougher to 141 00:05:03,045 --> 00:05:04,345 sort of choke. 142 00:05:04,964 --> 00:05:05,625 I mean, 143 00:05:06,004 --> 00:05:07,845 securely manage. I didn't say Nope. Choke. I 144 00:05:07,845 --> 00:05:08,904 didn't say Yep. Choke. I didn't secure manage. 145 00:05:09,220 --> 00:05:11,620 And so, Copilot is is just bringing those 146 00:05:11,620 --> 00:05:13,139 key concerns. So so mostly what we're seeing 147 00:05:13,139 --> 00:05:14,339 in the market, and we've gone through this 148 00:05:14,339 --> 00:05:16,819 ourselves with our own Copilot journey, Microsoft Copilot 149 00:05:16,819 --> 00:05:17,480 journey Okay. 150 00:05:18,419 --> 00:05:20,259 Is, you know, those things that you kinda 151 00:05:20,259 --> 00:05:21,860 know you should be doing anyway. There's always 152 00:05:21,860 --> 00:05:23,685 a little bit of a shameful, guilty look 153 00:05:23,685 --> 00:05:25,444 on people's face when we have this conversation 154 00:05:25,444 --> 00:05:26,884 because they know they should be doing it. 155 00:05:26,884 --> 00:05:29,925 Yep. Looking after data quality, sprawl, data life 156 00:05:29,925 --> 00:05:32,164 cycle, and, you know, the security and data 157 00:05:32,164 --> 00:05:33,925 ownership, all of these things are coming back 158 00:05:33,925 --> 00:05:35,365 to the fore. And I think, you know, 159 00:05:35,365 --> 00:05:37,444 you listen to Microsoft Keynotes, we'll hear more, 160 00:05:37,604 --> 00:05:38,584 today and tomorrow 161 00:05:39,150 --> 00:05:41,310 about, the focus there. So there's this dual 162 00:05:41,310 --> 00:05:44,370 focus of trying to transform the business. Right? 163 00:05:44,670 --> 00:05:47,069 Forward looking, move faster. At the same time, 164 00:05:47,069 --> 00:05:49,150 you've really gotta sort of shore up the 165 00:05:49,150 --> 00:05:51,629 foundation of security and data quality. So that's 166 00:05:51,629 --> 00:05:53,230 been the the mission a lot of companies 167 00:05:53,230 --> 00:05:55,394 we see are on. Okay. Yeah. And it's 168 00:05:55,394 --> 00:05:58,055 interesting you bring up Dell Yeah. Because 169 00:05:58,435 --> 00:06:00,514 I just had a conversation with another client 170 00:06:00,514 --> 00:06:02,754 the other day and they were like, we 171 00:06:02,754 --> 00:06:04,274 turned on Dell then all of a sudden 172 00:06:04,274 --> 00:06:06,435 people started seeing things they shouldn't. So we 173 00:06:06,435 --> 00:06:08,370 turned it off and we've what? Dell was 174 00:06:08,610 --> 00:06:09,970 We're secure now. We turned off Right. The 175 00:06:09,970 --> 00:06:11,650 interface to the data that they shouldn't have 176 00:06:11,650 --> 00:06:13,490 access to. 8 years ago or something like, 177 00:06:13,490 --> 00:06:15,410 yeah. Dell's been off for 8 years now. 178 00:06:15,410 --> 00:06:16,610 Yeah. That that was not the way to 179 00:06:16,610 --> 00:06:18,449 solve the problem by the way. Right. Because 180 00:06:18,449 --> 00:06:20,370 now CoPilot's coming up Exactly. For them and 181 00:06:20,370 --> 00:06:22,144 they're like, now we wanna use CoPilot, 182 00:06:22,524 --> 00:06:24,604 but everybody has the same concerns about Yeah. 183 00:06:24,685 --> 00:06:26,784 Delve. But our solution was 184 00:06:27,324 --> 00:06:29,485 we just turned it off. Yeah. Yeah. And 185 00:06:29,485 --> 00:06:30,925 and one of the, I mean it's crazy 186 00:06:30,925 --> 00:06:32,444 that one of the It's not crazy. It 187 00:06:32,444 --> 00:06:33,964 does make sense. And again, we Like I 188 00:06:33,964 --> 00:06:35,939 said, everything that I'm talking to you about, 189 00:06:36,019 --> 00:06:38,259 we went through internally. So it's, it's the, 190 00:06:38,259 --> 00:06:39,660 you know, the shoemaker's kids 191 00:06:40,100 --> 00:06:42,580 Yeah. A little bit situation, but, yeah, I 192 00:06:42,580 --> 00:06:43,860 mean, one of the, if you look at 193 00:06:43,860 --> 00:06:45,620 some of the, the suggestions out there, one 194 00:06:45,620 --> 00:06:47,139 of the suggestions is, you know, oh, if 195 00:06:47,139 --> 00:06:49,540 you're concerned about Co pilot surfacing information from 196 00:06:49,540 --> 00:06:52,925 these sensitive repositories, you know, turn off discovery, 197 00:06:52,925 --> 00:06:55,404 which basically is the old school, just accept 198 00:06:55,404 --> 00:06:57,805 them from the search index. Yeah. Which, think 199 00:06:57,805 --> 00:07:00,444 about everything that's gonna break when you do 200 00:07:00,444 --> 00:07:02,044 that. Right? This is my most important content 201 00:07:02,044 --> 00:07:03,404 that I now can't find my way back 202 00:07:03,404 --> 00:07:04,680 to when I want to. 203 00:07:05,319 --> 00:07:07,560 So, the the problem is, you know, the 204 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:09,160 the kicking the can down the the road 205 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,479 problem, it's it's been really interesting to see 206 00:07:11,479 --> 00:07:14,039 so many customers, big and small, finally in 207 00:07:14,039 --> 00:07:15,319 that, okay, we have to deal with this 208 00:07:15,319 --> 00:07:17,079 problem now, you know, and and dealing with 209 00:07:17,079 --> 00:07:19,000 it in a forward looking way because if 210 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,165 you do it right, it's not just cleaning 211 00:07:21,165 --> 00:07:23,324 up, it's really setting a good foundation for 212 00:07:23,324 --> 00:07:25,085 the future. So I think I think the 213 00:07:25,085 --> 00:07:27,884 the the AI, Gen AI is driving this, 214 00:07:27,884 --> 00:07:30,705 whether it's Dell or whether it's Microsoft's copilots 215 00:07:30,764 --> 00:07:33,751 or copilots that, you know, lowercasec copilots Yep. 216 00:07:33,805 --> 00:07:36,020 That companies you're trying to build. I had 217 00:07:36,020 --> 00:07:38,340 a question yesterday from a customer about, I 218 00:07:38,340 --> 00:07:41,240 have 5 of my 500 SharePoint sites 219 00:07:41,699 --> 00:07:44,020 that have really good information that I wanna, 220 00:07:44,020 --> 00:07:46,500 you know, make available. They're giant libraries and, 221 00:07:46,500 --> 00:07:48,980 you know, SharePoint agents with where you're going 222 00:07:48,980 --> 00:07:51,324 now. Right? What a great tool for surfacing 223 00:07:51,324 --> 00:07:53,964 useful information there, but I can't account for 224 00:07:53,964 --> 00:07:56,785 this other 400 and, you know, 95 areas. 225 00:07:57,084 --> 00:07:58,845 So there's there's a lot of a lot 226 00:07:58,845 --> 00:08:00,285 of focus on it now which I think 227 00:08:00,285 --> 00:08:02,524 is good. Right. And if you've seen this 228 00:08:02,524 --> 00:08:04,420 is another one that I've come up is 229 00:08:04,420 --> 00:08:06,740 everybody comes in and they're like, they're worried 230 00:08:06,740 --> 00:08:09,319 about security and Copilot. They're like, now Copilot's 231 00:08:09,460 --> 00:08:12,279 gonna start surfacing all this on other information. 232 00:08:12,660 --> 00:08:16,279 And helping people through that understanding of Copilot's 233 00:08:16,420 --> 00:08:19,394 not creating a security issue, but Copilot's just 234 00:08:19,875 --> 00:08:21,334 surfacing bad practices 235 00:08:21,875 --> 00:08:24,514 quicker. Yeah. Totally us accountable. Right. Then maybe 236 00:08:24,514 --> 00:08:26,995 the typical SharePoint search would. SharePoint search, it 237 00:08:26,995 --> 00:08:29,074 took a while to sort through 100 of 238 00:08:29,074 --> 00:08:31,649 thousands of results. Copilot's like, here's a whole 239 00:08:31,649 --> 00:08:33,649 bunch of stuff. Yeah. Early on in the 240 00:08:33,649 --> 00:08:35,649 in the, this sort of whole market motion 241 00:08:35,649 --> 00:08:37,250 that we've been And it was really cool 242 00:08:37,250 --> 00:08:38,850 for us, by the way, because all of 243 00:08:38,850 --> 00:08:40,929 these problems are problems that we've been addressing 244 00:08:40,929 --> 00:08:43,169 and, you know, really targeting innovation at for 245 00:08:43,169 --> 00:08:45,095 many years. And we used to chase people 246 00:08:45,095 --> 00:08:46,534 down the road saying, you should care about 247 00:08:46,534 --> 00:08:47,934 this. You should care. Right? And now people 248 00:08:47,934 --> 00:08:49,014 are coming to the table going, oh, my 249 00:08:49,014 --> 00:08:50,375 God. I got a problem. We're going, okay. 250 00:08:50,375 --> 00:08:53,115 Let's have a chat. But, yeah, I think 251 00:08:53,254 --> 00:08:55,835 I think it is definitely interesting, and 252 00:08:56,375 --> 00:08:59,115 there's this dual nature of really 253 00:08:59,580 --> 00:09:01,340 not only having to figure out a plan 254 00:09:01,340 --> 00:09:03,580 to clean up, you understand that, but also 255 00:09:03,580 --> 00:09:05,440 on the other side, right, of the Copilot 256 00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:08,000 equation is a lot of customers are wondering 257 00:09:08,139 --> 00:09:10,139 what does good actually look like. They're being 258 00:09:10,139 --> 00:09:11,899 asked to, you know, people we're talking to 259 00:09:11,899 --> 00:09:14,054 have to go account for, hey, we're spending 260 00:09:14,054 --> 00:09:15,855 all this money on licenses, are we getting 261 00:09:15,855 --> 00:09:16,754 back a return? 262 00:09:17,215 --> 00:09:19,375 And so there is a lot of sort 263 00:09:19,375 --> 00:09:21,215 of disruption right now, I think, in in 264 00:09:21,215 --> 00:09:23,855 co pilot, deployments of what does good actually 265 00:09:23,855 --> 00:09:25,934 look like? Right? What are we trying to 266 00:09:25,934 --> 00:09:27,769 prove that we're doing? We did, like I 267 00:09:27,769 --> 00:09:30,269 said, we were early in and there's pretty 268 00:09:30,730 --> 00:09:33,370 broad understanding that we're saving 2 to 3 269 00:09:33,370 --> 00:09:35,529 hours a week on on average, people that 270 00:09:35,529 --> 00:09:37,850 have Copilot licenses. Yep. And we brought that 271 00:09:37,850 --> 00:09:40,125 back to the business and said, hey, let's 272 00:09:40,125 --> 00:09:42,625 talk about expanding this pilot. And they said, 273 00:09:42,845 --> 00:09:44,705 okay, but what's the business getting 274 00:09:45,485 --> 00:09:47,245 for those 2 hours? Because because, you know, 275 00:09:47,245 --> 00:09:49,965 because the hourly rate justifies it, but but 276 00:09:49,965 --> 00:09:52,044 I'm not sure the business impact. So that's 277 00:09:52,044 --> 00:09:53,485 another area that I think we're talking a 278 00:09:53,485 --> 00:09:55,085 lot of customers about as well. It's how 279 00:09:55,085 --> 00:09:55,649 do you 280 00:09:55,970 --> 00:09:58,870 understand and measure that business impact? Yeah. And 281 00:09:59,330 --> 00:10:01,570 that is a conversation I've had with others 282 00:10:01,570 --> 00:10:03,410 to to your point. It's like, okay, great. 283 00:10:03,410 --> 00:10:05,410 Everybody's getting 2 or 3 hours back. What 284 00:10:05,410 --> 00:10:06,610 are they doing with those 2 or 3 285 00:10:06,610 --> 00:10:07,910 hours? No. They're watching YouTube. 286 00:10:08,450 --> 00:10:10,715 Break conversation they have. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 287 00:10:10,715 --> 00:10:12,554 Are they watching YouTube? Are they taking longer 288 00:10:12,554 --> 00:10:14,634 breaks? Are they working shorter hours? Yeah. Then 289 00:10:14,634 --> 00:10:16,955 you're not gonna get that ROI. It's like 290 00:10:16,955 --> 00:10:19,115 they get back 2 or 3 hours. Are 291 00:10:19,115 --> 00:10:22,014 they moving the business forward Yeah. Or doing 292 00:10:22,235 --> 00:10:25,559 activities that are driving Yeah. Business value in 293 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:26,919 the time they're getting back. I think that 294 00:10:26,919 --> 00:10:28,759 is the key. Right? We do need to 295 00:10:28,759 --> 00:10:31,580 figure that out because, you know, our our, 296 00:10:31,639 --> 00:10:34,039 you know, my, you know, assume positive intent. 297 00:10:34,039 --> 00:10:35,259 Right? Yep. So, 298 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:37,879 I would like to believe and I do 299 00:10:37,879 --> 00:10:40,245 believe that when folks save that time, they 300 00:10:40,245 --> 00:10:41,924 just spend less time on low quality work 301 00:10:41,924 --> 00:10:43,764 and more time on high quality work. Right? 302 00:10:43,764 --> 00:10:44,584 Yeah. But, 303 00:10:45,125 --> 00:10:46,024 whether my 304 00:10:46,485 --> 00:10:48,024 optimistic belief is 305 00:10:48,485 --> 00:10:50,245 accurate or not, doesn't really matter when you 306 00:10:50,245 --> 00:10:51,839 go into the CFO's office for more money 307 00:10:51,839 --> 00:10:53,860 for licenses at, you know, $360 308 00:10:54,799 --> 00:10:56,879 per user per year. So you really do 309 00:10:56,879 --> 00:10:59,839 need that measurable kind of, impact analysis, I 310 00:10:59,839 --> 00:11:01,860 think, in a way that's more than anecdotal. 311 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,220 Yeah. So as you've worked with customers, 312 00:11:06,159 --> 00:11:08,105 have you have you guys figured out a 313 00:11:08,105 --> 00:11:09,865 way, like, how do you measure that? Or 314 00:11:09,865 --> 00:11:11,785 like you said, your own experience when you 315 00:11:11,785 --> 00:11:14,024 go say, we need to roll this out 316 00:11:14,024 --> 00:11:14,845 and your 317 00:11:15,705 --> 00:11:17,705 CFO comes back and says, well, show me 318 00:11:17,705 --> 00:11:18,904 what they're doing with those Yeah. 2 to 319 00:11:18,904 --> 00:11:21,799 3 hours. Yeah. Is that something you guys 320 00:11:22,019 --> 00:11:24,019 have been able to kind of wrap your 321 00:11:24,019 --> 00:11:26,019 heads around or quantify somehow or come up 322 00:11:26,019 --> 00:11:27,860 with some strategies? Yeah. I mean, I think 323 00:11:27,860 --> 00:11:29,220 we're not it's not our, you know, it's 324 00:11:29,220 --> 00:11:31,299 certainly not our playbook. It's a pretty well 325 00:11:31,299 --> 00:11:33,644 established playbook. But it it works top down 326 00:11:33,644 --> 00:11:34,684 and bottom up is the way to do 327 00:11:34,684 --> 00:11:37,004 it. Right? You need good executive sponsorship, not 328 00:11:37,004 --> 00:11:40,125 not specifically for Microsoft Co pilot per se 329 00:11:40,125 --> 00:11:41,964 or the other, you know, Co pilots that 330 00:11:41,964 --> 00:11:43,884 are 98 Co pilots that are out there. 331 00:11:43,884 --> 00:11:46,125 Yeah. But just for Gen AI and and, 332 00:11:46,125 --> 00:11:47,884 you know, this new wave of AI in 333 00:11:47,884 --> 00:11:50,250 in general, it needs a top down mandate, 334 00:11:50,309 --> 00:11:52,070 I think, to help people start to think 335 00:11:52,070 --> 00:11:53,990 differently. And then the bottom up is to 336 00:11:53,990 --> 00:11:55,929 to, you know, first there'll be this exploratory 337 00:11:56,149 --> 00:11:57,830 period where people are figuring it out. The 338 00:11:57,830 --> 00:12:00,389 more you can enable them, there's no end 339 00:12:00,389 --> 00:12:03,205 of resources. It's been interesting to see how 340 00:12:03,205 --> 00:12:05,524 much, investment Microsoft's been put in there in 341 00:12:05,524 --> 00:12:06,184 in enablement. 342 00:12:06,644 --> 00:12:08,164 But you gotta hit it from both sides 343 00:12:08,164 --> 00:12:09,605 and what we see is there there's a 344 00:12:09,605 --> 00:12:11,605 short period of of figuring it out and 345 00:12:11,605 --> 00:12:13,705 and simple things, meeting summarizations, 346 00:12:14,085 --> 00:12:16,019 following meetings, some of that stuff like that. 347 00:12:16,179 --> 00:12:17,540 But what you start to see if you 348 00:12:17,540 --> 00:12:19,540 were watching at the departmental level, in the 349 00:12:19,540 --> 00:12:22,019 team level, you start to see pockets where 350 00:12:22,019 --> 00:12:24,019 it's happening. Okay. Right? And that's where you 351 00:12:24,019 --> 00:12:25,879 really want to dig in and find out, 352 00:12:25,940 --> 00:12:27,860 that's where I invest. It's not a, do 353 00:12:27,860 --> 00:12:29,080 I invest in the company 354 00:12:29,540 --> 00:12:32,475 broad. Right? It's I invest in the success 355 00:12:32,475 --> 00:12:34,735 that I see and the success begets success. 356 00:12:35,115 --> 00:12:36,634 So that's what we see is is, you 357 00:12:36,634 --> 00:12:38,574 know, mandates from the top that work, 358 00:12:39,034 --> 00:12:40,975 but then a really sort of, 359 00:12:41,434 --> 00:12:43,674 not overly structured, but a, but a well 360 00:12:43,674 --> 00:12:46,710 structured and monitored strategy of finding the success 361 00:12:46,710 --> 00:12:49,350 in the organization and replicating it. Got it. 362 00:12:49,350 --> 00:12:51,129 So with that success, 363 00:12:52,549 --> 00:12:53,049 have 364 00:12:53,669 --> 00:12:55,830 either again, you guys internally as you've talked 365 00:12:55,830 --> 00:12:56,809 to different customers 366 00:12:57,269 --> 00:12:59,909 found different areas of Copilot where you tend 367 00:12:59,909 --> 00:13:01,934 to get success? I know you noticed meeting 368 00:13:01,934 --> 00:13:03,535 summaries and I feel like that one is 369 00:13:03,695 --> 00:13:06,095 Far and away. One way It does. I 370 00:13:06,095 --> 00:13:07,615 feel like that one blows everything away. Are 371 00:13:07,615 --> 00:13:09,615 there any others that you kinda have seen 372 00:13:09,615 --> 00:13:11,535 too? So, yeah. We And and we're studying 373 00:13:11,535 --> 00:13:13,615 this. We're actually, you know, internally for sure. 374 00:13:13,615 --> 00:13:15,295 And then and then we're working on this 375 00:13:15,295 --> 00:13:17,170 as well because we've, you know, we've got 376 00:13:17,170 --> 00:13:19,429 products in market that try to help customers 377 00:13:19,889 --> 00:13:21,889 create this sort of success ladder. So we're 378 00:13:21,889 --> 00:13:23,889 always looking for, like, what are those, those 379 00:13:23,889 --> 00:13:26,210 use cases that are the phase 1, what 380 00:13:26,210 --> 00:13:28,710 are the phase 2? So certainly meeting summarization, 381 00:13:28,850 --> 00:13:31,375 which of course brings the privacy and security 382 00:13:31,375 --> 00:13:32,815 people out of the woodwork. It's, wait a 383 00:13:32,815 --> 00:13:34,575 minute, how are we handling all these transcripts? 384 00:13:34,575 --> 00:13:37,215 Right? So that's a that's a given. We 385 00:13:37,215 --> 00:13:40,415 see less and and some Microsoft's announcing quite 386 00:13:40,415 --> 00:13:41,235 a bit here 387 00:13:41,774 --> 00:13:43,154 about the in app 388 00:13:43,529 --> 00:13:45,929 copilots and and really working Okay. To really 389 00:13:45,929 --> 00:13:47,929 rev them and improve them. We don't see 390 00:13:47,929 --> 00:13:51,049 so much the content generation being a tier 391 00:13:51,049 --> 00:13:52,269 one use case in 392 00:13:52,649 --> 00:13:54,829 outside of content teams. 393 00:13:55,129 --> 00:13:57,804 Okay. Heavy use in content teams. Rank and 394 00:13:57,804 --> 00:13:59,964 file, not really. It's more for like help 395 00:13:59,964 --> 00:14:02,304 me understand this document. It's summarization. 396 00:14:02,684 --> 00:14:04,704 It's extracting key points. 397 00:14:05,084 --> 00:14:05,584 We, 398 00:14:06,204 --> 00:14:07,884 as you can imagine, coming up to Ignite 399 00:14:07,884 --> 00:14:09,884 internally, we had quite a bit of analysis 400 00:14:09,884 --> 00:14:12,460 about what is happening, what are the announcements, 401 00:14:12,519 --> 00:14:15,419 ourselves, customers, partners, right, what is happening? 402 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:17,639 And it used to be that, how am 403 00:14:17,639 --> 00:14:20,360 I presenting this information? What format is it 404 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:22,220 in? Do it, you know, what is consumable 405 00:14:22,279 --> 00:14:23,960 by audience A and B was a big 406 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:25,485 concern for us. We've 407 00:14:25,804 --> 00:14:27,725 basically changed that mindset now, because we can 408 00:14:27,725 --> 00:14:30,605 write really detailed analysis documents and not worry 409 00:14:30,605 --> 00:14:31,504 about the presentation, 410 00:14:31,884 --> 00:14:33,904 because it takes 2 minutes to have Copilot 411 00:14:34,044 --> 00:14:36,524 spin that information for 5 different audiences. So 412 00:14:36,524 --> 00:14:38,284 those are the the the kind of use 413 00:14:38,284 --> 00:14:39,804 cases that once you start to dig in 414 00:14:39,804 --> 00:14:40,590 a little bit, 415 00:14:40,990 --> 00:14:44,509 really have a transformative general effect. Right? We're 416 00:14:44,509 --> 00:14:46,850 not talking about, you know, building specific Copilots 417 00:14:46,990 --> 00:14:49,649 to, you know, do business process, 418 00:14:50,029 --> 00:14:51,070 you know, and things like that. So I 419 00:14:51,070 --> 00:14:52,605 think there's a lot of low hanging fruit. 420 00:14:53,004 --> 00:14:55,164 Yeah. And summarization seems to be across all 421 00:14:55,164 --> 00:14:57,745 of the places where Copilot lives. Summarization 422 00:14:58,125 --> 00:14:59,824 and re reinterpreting 423 00:15:00,125 --> 00:15:01,964 content is is really where we see a 424 00:15:01,964 --> 00:15:02,784 lot of value. 425 00:15:06,204 --> 00:15:08,360 Do you feel overwhelmed by trying to manage 426 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,080 your Office 3 65 environment? Are you facing 427 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,700 unexpected issues that disrupt your company's productivity? Intelligink 428 00:15:14,759 --> 00:15:16,360 is here to help. 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Whether 436 00:15:32,584 --> 00:15:33,485 you are a small 437 00:15:35,839 --> 00:15:37,039 few users up to an organization of several 438 00:15:37,039 --> 00:15:39,839 1,000 employees, they want to partner with you 439 00:15:39,839 --> 00:15:43,220 to implement and administer your Microsoft Cloud technology. 440 00:15:43,919 --> 00:15:45,379 Visit them at inteliginc.com/podcast. 441 00:15:47,679 --> 00:15:48,899 That's int 442 00:15:50,725 --> 00:15:51,225 elligink.com/podcast 443 00:15:54,725 --> 00:15:56,884 for more information or to schedule a 30 444 00:15:56,884 --> 00:15:58,985 minute call to get started with them today. 445 00:15:59,205 --> 00:16:02,565 Remember, Intelligink focuses on the Microsoft cloud, so 446 00:16:02,565 --> 00:16:04,200 you can focus on your business. 447 00:16:06,679 --> 00:16:08,519 It's interesting you say that. Scott and I 448 00:16:08,519 --> 00:16:09,720 were playing with it. So we got you 449 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,080 get the book of news Yeah. From in 450 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,799 now. Right? And it's we printed it off. 451 00:16:13,799 --> 00:16:15,399 We went into our browser and said print 452 00:16:15,399 --> 00:16:17,160 this off in PDF form. Yeah. And you 453 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,179 get, like, a 90 page PDF document. 454 00:16:19,625 --> 00:16:21,784 And we actually threw it into OneDrive and 455 00:16:21,784 --> 00:16:23,384 then went to Copilot Yeah. And said, go 456 00:16:23,384 --> 00:16:24,825 look at the book of news, give us 457 00:16:24,825 --> 00:16:27,784 the top 5 Microsoft 365 announcements. Yeah. Give 458 00:16:27,784 --> 00:16:29,784 us the top 5 Copilot announcements. Yeah. Give 459 00:16:29,784 --> 00:16:32,345 us the top 5. So that's interesting because 460 00:16:32,345 --> 00:16:34,745 because because reading that book of news, again, 461 00:16:34,745 --> 00:16:36,899 this is this is just a different way 462 00:16:36,899 --> 00:16:39,240 that you're and this goes to the broader 463 00:16:39,699 --> 00:16:41,620 perspective, like, it's a it's a micro of 464 00:16:41,620 --> 00:16:44,259 the macro, which is having to think differently 465 00:16:44,259 --> 00:16:46,740 about your data when you're in a in 466 00:16:46,740 --> 00:16:48,899 a Gen AI world. So the book the 467 00:16:48,899 --> 00:16:50,339 book of news, what is it? It's a 468 00:16:50,339 --> 00:16:53,754 bunch of bulleted list announcements. There's very little 469 00:16:53,754 --> 00:16:56,075 this is more important than that. So Copilot 470 00:16:56,075 --> 00:16:57,695 has a tough time understanding, 471 00:16:58,075 --> 00:17:00,235 you know, what's more important than not. Right. 472 00:17:00,235 --> 00:17:01,914 And I think that comes into that point 473 00:17:01,914 --> 00:17:04,419 too. Like, how do you, do you want 474 00:17:04,419 --> 00:17:06,099 to write your documents if people are gonna 475 00:17:06,099 --> 00:17:07,859 summarize them or write your announcements if people 476 00:17:07,859 --> 00:17:09,859 are gonna summarize them with that? Because we 477 00:17:09,859 --> 00:17:12,119 had that discussion. We're like, how is Copilot 478 00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:13,000 determining 479 00:17:13,380 --> 00:17:15,299 Yeah. What's more important? Is it just picking 480 00:17:15,299 --> 00:17:17,865 the top 5 that it comes across? Yeah. 481 00:17:18,325 --> 00:17:20,164 And we were we got different results in 482 00:17:20,164 --> 00:17:21,605 terms of what the top Yeah. Five were. 483 00:17:21,605 --> 00:17:22,740 So it was kind of a Yeah. Because 484 00:17:22,740 --> 00:17:24,424 it's it's it's tough to 485 00:17:25,605 --> 00:17:27,605 to diagnose. One of the things that that 486 00:17:27,605 --> 00:17:29,605 I think, you know, it goes into the 487 00:17:29,605 --> 00:17:31,650 overall, this needs to be part of a 488 00:17:31,730 --> 00:17:33,730 copilot program is, you know, this thing is 489 00:17:33,730 --> 00:17:37,349 wickedly smart, but this myth that it understands 490 00:17:37,490 --> 00:17:39,850 exactly what you want at all times Yes. 491 00:17:40,130 --> 00:17:42,289 Is a total myth. Right? It's like any 492 00:17:42,289 --> 00:17:44,049 other language, you have to learn the, kind 493 00:17:44,049 --> 00:17:45,924 of the rules of it. And so, looking 494 00:17:45,924 --> 00:17:47,684 at that book of news, it's one thing 495 00:17:47,684 --> 00:17:49,285 to say summarize the book, it's another thing 496 00:17:49,285 --> 00:17:51,365 to summarize the book and then go search 497 00:17:51,365 --> 00:17:53,285 recent headlines in the industry and find the 498 00:17:53,285 --> 00:17:54,644 things that are going to have the most 499 00:17:54,644 --> 00:17:55,144 impact. 500 00:17:55,605 --> 00:17:58,005 Right? That is a completely different world, but 501 00:17:58,005 --> 00:18:00,664 Copilot is, you know, in general, you know, 502 00:18:01,099 --> 00:18:03,019 the the technology behind Copilot can do those 503 00:18:03,019 --> 00:18:04,700 things. It's just that, you know, we have 504 00:18:04,700 --> 00:18:08,140 to start thinking about directing it properly. Yeah. 505 00:18:08,140 --> 00:18:09,900 And I think that's where a lot of 506 00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:12,539 learning will come in with people is, to 507 00:18:12,539 --> 00:18:14,220 your point of all different sides, are people 508 00:18:14,220 --> 00:18:15,599 creating content differently, 509 00:18:15,964 --> 00:18:17,025 so that it gets consumed, 510 00:18:17,565 --> 00:18:19,025 learning how are people 511 00:18:19,484 --> 00:18:22,224 prompting co pilots and prompting Gen AI, 512 00:18:22,605 --> 00:18:24,285 because that may dictate how you create the 513 00:18:24,285 --> 00:18:26,684 content. Like, there's so many different steps Yeah. 514 00:18:26,765 --> 00:18:27,904 In that process that 515 00:18:28,330 --> 00:18:29,690 is fascinating. And I think one of the 516 00:18:29,690 --> 00:18:31,289 best ways for companies to do it, if 517 00:18:31,289 --> 00:18:34,009 they haven't started yet, even in a in 518 00:18:34,009 --> 00:18:34,910 a small way, 519 00:18:35,210 --> 00:18:37,930 building your own co pilots, you know, and 520 00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:38,670 really understanding 521 00:18:39,289 --> 00:18:41,610 things like system prompts and the the impact 522 00:18:41,610 --> 00:18:43,549 they can have on on response quality, 523 00:18:44,315 --> 00:18:45,454 that's another muscle. 524 00:18:45,755 --> 00:18:47,994 But that muscle, you know, we have, for 525 00:18:47,994 --> 00:18:49,295 a while now, been developing 526 00:18:49,674 --> 00:18:52,634 internally facing and customer facing gen a knowledge 527 00:18:52,634 --> 00:18:53,454 bots, basically. 528 00:18:54,154 --> 00:18:55,914 And, you know, the way you shape system 529 00:18:55,914 --> 00:18:57,835 prompts, the different kinds of assistance you can 530 00:18:57,835 --> 00:18:59,134 create help give 531 00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:01,200 a little bit more depth of knowledge, 532 00:19:01,500 --> 00:19:02,960 I think, for the organization. 533 00:19:03,419 --> 00:19:05,099 So that it's not all just sort of 534 00:19:05,099 --> 00:19:07,339 black box new stuff. I don't understand how 535 00:19:07,339 --> 00:19:08,859 it works. And so that helps with the 536 00:19:08,859 --> 00:19:11,419 enablement as well. Okay. So I know we've 537 00:19:11,419 --> 00:19:13,294 talked about a lot of different things so 538 00:19:13,294 --> 00:19:14,974 far. We talked about some of the security, 539 00:19:14,974 --> 00:19:16,994 the governance, preparing for it. 540 00:19:17,375 --> 00:19:18,894 And I would say another aspect of it 541 00:19:18,894 --> 00:19:21,214 is maintaining. Once you get to a certain 542 00:19:21,214 --> 00:19:23,714 point Yeah. You don't wanna then start 543 00:19:25,309 --> 00:19:27,569 digressing Yeah. Because you got everything 544 00:19:27,869 --> 00:19:29,170 set up, you got everything 545 00:19:29,710 --> 00:19:31,549 in a good spot, but now you go 546 00:19:31,549 --> 00:19:34,007 create 400 more SharePoint sites that just don't 547 00:19:34,007 --> 00:19:35,250 put the Do you wanna clean a garage 548 00:19:35,309 --> 00:19:36,829 once every year? Or do you wanna come 549 00:19:36,829 --> 00:19:39,410 up with a garage maintenance practice? Yes. Exactly. 550 00:19:39,710 --> 00:19:41,284 So some of that, some of the Copilot 551 00:19:41,345 --> 00:19:43,585 adoption. And I know, again, you've been working 552 00:19:43,585 --> 00:19:45,345 with a lot of customers, you've been coming 553 00:19:45,345 --> 00:19:46,724 out with some products. 554 00:19:47,264 --> 00:19:49,365 What are some of those things that 555 00:19:49,984 --> 00:19:51,044 AvePoint specifically 556 00:19:51,424 --> 00:19:53,125 can do to help customers 557 00:19:53,585 --> 00:19:54,325 as they 558 00:19:54,750 --> 00:19:57,070 prepare, maybe as they measure ROI, as they 559 00:19:57,070 --> 00:19:58,750 wanna come up with a maintenance plan Yeah. 560 00:19:58,829 --> 00:20:01,950 For their Microsoft 365 environment? That's a it's 561 00:20:01,950 --> 00:20:03,570 a great question and and, 562 00:20:03,950 --> 00:20:06,269 early on I think we've we've we've been 563 00:20:06,269 --> 00:20:08,325 guilty in the past of sort of being 564 00:20:08,325 --> 00:20:08,825 ridiculously 565 00:20:09,525 --> 00:20:10,025 specific, 566 00:20:10,644 --> 00:20:12,325 you know, in the way that we try 567 00:20:12,325 --> 00:20:14,265 to shape, you know, strategy, 568 00:20:15,284 --> 00:20:17,924 that we're recommending to customers. And we, when 569 00:20:17,924 --> 00:20:19,859 it came to Copilot, we really kind of 570 00:20:19,940 --> 00:20:21,940 took a a simplistic approach that has worked 571 00:20:21,940 --> 00:20:23,380 really well, and it was like a 3 572 00:20:23,380 --> 00:20:25,240 step framework. And step 1 is 573 00:20:25,539 --> 00:20:27,779 understand and optimize the data footprint that you 574 00:20:27,779 --> 00:20:29,940 have. Okay. Because everything else you try to 575 00:20:29,940 --> 00:20:31,859 do is more difficult the more data you 576 00:20:31,859 --> 00:20:33,539 have. And if you're carrying all this baggage 577 00:20:33,539 --> 00:20:34,679 of unneeded data, 578 00:20:35,244 --> 00:20:37,005 understanding the security of it, the ownership of 579 00:20:37,005 --> 00:20:38,784 it, all get very, very difficult. 580 00:20:39,325 --> 00:20:41,565 So number 1 is is developing tools and 581 00:20:41,565 --> 00:20:43,484 capabilities to allow customers to do that, and 582 00:20:43,484 --> 00:20:45,404 then helping them with the business practice of 583 00:20:45,404 --> 00:20:47,164 it. Okay. Still in a very clean up 584 00:20:47,164 --> 00:20:49,009 model. Right? Step 2 is to do the 585 00:20:49,009 --> 00:20:50,849 exact same thing, but with your permissions and 586 00:20:50,849 --> 00:20:51,349 access. 587 00:20:51,650 --> 00:20:53,569 And so, we've been sort of investing and 588 00:20:53,569 --> 00:20:55,329 rolling out lots of of tools around that. 589 00:20:55,329 --> 00:20:57,329 One of the latest things we announced this 590 00:20:57,329 --> 00:20:58,950 week was an expansion where 591 00:20:59,250 --> 00:21:01,784 we're bringing sort of over sharing and risk 592 00:21:01,784 --> 00:21:04,585 analysis down to the the data owner themselves 593 00:21:04,585 --> 00:21:06,825 in a really simple way, where you can 594 00:21:06,825 --> 00:21:08,664 understand, wow, I'm about to, you know, we're 595 00:21:08,664 --> 00:21:10,585 about to do a co pilot launch and 596 00:21:10,585 --> 00:21:12,345 I have all this overexposed content in my 597 00:21:12,345 --> 00:21:14,105 OneDrive. Right? I didn't even know. It's been 598 00:21:14,105 --> 00:21:16,390 years. I'm just using and sharing and everyone 599 00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:17,990 in the org links and I have no 600 00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:19,829 idea. Right? So all of that. So so 601 00:21:19,829 --> 00:21:21,670 that's also cleaning up, but that top of 602 00:21:21,670 --> 00:21:23,509 that pyramid, if this is a 3 step 603 00:21:23,509 --> 00:21:24,009 process, 604 00:21:24,390 --> 00:21:27,049 really is implementing those go forward practices, 605 00:21:27,990 --> 00:21:28,490 of 606 00:21:28,789 --> 00:21:31,904 good data hygiene from a, you know, quality 607 00:21:31,904 --> 00:21:33,504 and life cycle perspective. And so we've got 608 00:21:33,504 --> 00:21:34,964 a lot of stuff that helps them there. 609 00:21:35,264 --> 00:21:36,804 Good practices around, 610 00:21:37,585 --> 00:21:38,085 understanding 611 00:21:38,544 --> 00:21:40,944 and enforcing data ownership and putting some teeth 612 00:21:40,944 --> 00:21:42,464 into that. You can have it, but you 613 00:21:42,464 --> 00:21:44,325 have to do these things and be accountable. 614 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,119 So now we don't have a fear that 615 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:47,640 no one has looked at the permissions because 616 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:48,920 we just go to the poor report and 617 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:50,200 find out when the last time they were 618 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,820 reviewed and who did it. Right? 619 00:21:52,599 --> 00:21:54,200 So that those are the the data and 620 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,279 security go forward practices. And then the last 621 00:21:56,279 --> 00:21:57,559 and most important one, and this was a 622 00:21:57,559 --> 00:21:59,640 big announcement of, is more than just the 623 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:02,174 getting ready, how are we continuing to move 624 00:22:02,174 --> 00:22:04,414 the business forward and that's where we've introduced 625 00:22:04,414 --> 00:22:05,154 a bunch of 626 00:22:05,535 --> 00:22:08,194 benchmark reporting in our Copilot adoption, 627 00:22:09,775 --> 00:22:12,174 insights that we've we rolled out late last 628 00:22:12,174 --> 00:22:14,240 year or earlier this year, And 629 00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:16,380 what that does is, in the absence of 630 00:22:16,380 --> 00:22:18,460 knowing exactly what good looks like for your 631 00:22:18,460 --> 00:22:18,960 org, 632 00:22:19,579 --> 00:22:21,279 knowing how close you are to the shore 633 00:22:21,740 --> 00:22:23,740 Yep. Is a good start. Right? So so 634 00:22:23,740 --> 00:22:27,039 this allows organizations to, opt in to anonymize 635 00:22:27,339 --> 00:22:28,240 summary data 636 00:22:28,795 --> 00:22:29,934 that will go into 637 00:22:30,394 --> 00:22:31,775 the larger data 638 00:22:33,115 --> 00:22:33,615 collection 639 00:22:34,315 --> 00:22:35,835 and then be able to spit back out. 640 00:22:35,835 --> 00:22:37,275 You can come in and say, how how 641 00:22:37,275 --> 00:22:38,714 am I doing? So all of our Copilot 642 00:22:38,714 --> 00:22:40,634 adoption reports now are gonna have these benchmark. 643 00:22:40,634 --> 00:22:43,059 Here's your score. Here's your peers of your 644 00:22:43,059 --> 00:22:44,200 size in your industry. 645 00:22:44,899 --> 00:22:46,740 And that has, you know, we had a 646 00:22:46,740 --> 00:22:48,579 lot of questions about whether people would be 647 00:22:48,579 --> 00:22:50,179 open to that and what the response would 648 00:22:50,179 --> 00:22:52,419 be. It's been overwhelmingly positive because I think 649 00:22:52,419 --> 00:22:53,480 people wanna know 650 00:22:53,974 --> 00:22:55,575 how am I doing? Where do I? Yeah. 651 00:22:55,575 --> 00:22:57,494 Right. Well, and I think of So similar 652 00:22:57,494 --> 00:22:58,474 to like Microsoft's 653 00:22:59,174 --> 00:23:01,255 secure score and compliance score. Right? So they 654 00:23:01,255 --> 00:23:03,434 give you Yeah. Here's your score, here's organizations 655 00:23:03,654 --> 00:23:06,474 in a similar place. You're Yeah. Here, everybody. 656 00:23:06,670 --> 00:23:08,190 I'm more talking with my hands on a 657 00:23:08,190 --> 00:23:09,710 podcast. Yeah. Right. No. I got you. I 658 00:23:09,710 --> 00:23:10,670 got you. We can hear the rough Right. 659 00:23:10,750 --> 00:23:12,349 And there's a We can hear my hands 660 00:23:12,349 --> 00:23:14,190 moving in the air. Yeah. But being able 661 00:23:14,190 --> 00:23:16,769 to compare again to organizations of similar size. 662 00:23:16,829 --> 00:23:18,289 The key there, I think, is 663 00:23:18,670 --> 00:23:20,829 data at a summary level like that, like 664 00:23:20,829 --> 00:23:22,210 a security score, 665 00:23:22,714 --> 00:23:24,634 you know, is useful if you believe the 666 00:23:24,634 --> 00:23:27,035 data. Right? Yep. And so that's why we're 667 00:23:27,035 --> 00:23:29,035 working really hard in these reports is to 668 00:23:29,035 --> 00:23:31,134 make sure that the the data is understandable. 669 00:23:31,195 --> 00:23:33,055 Where does this come from? What it means? 670 00:23:33,115 --> 00:23:35,275 We have a a predictor. We have an 671 00:23:35,275 --> 00:23:38,015 algorithm of probable copilot adopters. 672 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:39,140 Oh, interesting. 673 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,320 So it's it's specifics like that, that people 674 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:43,920 can say, oh, hey, wait a minute. Right? 675 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:45,940 I I this is not a Copilot problem. 676 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,500 We're not really leveraging Microsoft 365 677 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,279 broadly in a way that is progressive and, 678 00:23:51,279 --> 00:23:53,279 you know, transformative. So maybe we need to 679 00:23:53,279 --> 00:23:55,805 actually look broader than just Copilot right now. 680 00:23:55,805 --> 00:23:56,924 Got it. So it's the devil's in the 681 00:23:56,924 --> 00:23:59,164 details. Okay. So one of those reports, almost 682 00:23:59,164 --> 00:24:01,005 like you had talked about earlier with finding 683 00:24:01,005 --> 00:24:03,565 those pockets of people that are really starting 684 00:24:03,565 --> 00:24:05,164 to use it, some of your reports will 685 00:24:05,164 --> 00:24:08,309 help whether it's admins or whoever wants to 686 00:24:08,309 --> 00:24:11,429 see these reports, this particular department or this 687 00:24:11,429 --> 00:24:14,549 particular segment of people Exactly. Are really starting 688 00:24:14,549 --> 00:24:16,950 to gain traction with Copilot and use it 689 00:24:16,950 --> 00:24:18,630 as some of those Exactly. Reports. And so 690 00:24:18,630 --> 00:24:21,529 we're we're shifting from a Copilot readiness messaging 691 00:24:21,875 --> 00:24:22,695 to a messaging 692 00:24:23,634 --> 00:24:24,375 around confidence. 693 00:24:24,674 --> 00:24:26,434 Right? That's how that's a word that we'll 694 00:24:26,434 --> 00:24:27,875 we'll Okay. Really be using because I think 695 00:24:27,875 --> 00:24:30,195 it just summarizes what we're talking about. Confidence 696 00:24:30,195 --> 00:24:32,275 that we're doing the right things, confidence we're 697 00:24:32,275 --> 00:24:34,275 achieving our goals, but also confidence that we're 698 00:24:34,275 --> 00:24:35,940 doing it in a way where we're meeting 699 00:24:35,940 --> 00:24:38,419 our obligations from a security and, you know, 700 00:24:38,419 --> 00:24:40,839 governance team. Got it. So the data ownership 701 00:24:40,899 --> 00:24:43,059 reports, I'm curious about this one because I 702 00:24:43,059 --> 00:24:44,380 haven't had a chance to look at this 703 00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:45,480 Yeah. Yet, where 704 00:24:46,179 --> 00:24:48,200 Do some of these reports then give 705 00:24:48,914 --> 00:24:52,115 individual content owners, whether it's their OneDrive or 706 00:24:52,115 --> 00:24:54,134 maybe content that they have 707 00:24:54,595 --> 00:24:55,654 created or modified, 708 00:24:55,955 --> 00:24:58,455 where then owners are able to go see, 709 00:24:58,674 --> 00:25:01,335 here's all of my files across That's right. 710 00:25:01,475 --> 00:25:02,134 The entire 711 00:25:02,434 --> 00:25:02,934 organization 712 00:25:03,649 --> 00:25:05,909 that I should taking some of that 713 00:25:06,450 --> 00:25:08,369 The risk here's my risk. Right? Right. What 714 00:25:08,369 --> 00:25:09,490 can I do about it? Taking some of 715 00:25:09,490 --> 00:25:11,329 that action off of IT. Yeah. I know 716 00:25:11,329 --> 00:25:12,849 I do consulting. A lot of companies are 717 00:25:12,849 --> 00:25:14,389 like, we wanna co pilot 718 00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:17,329 readiness assessment, and we wanna understand where our 719 00:25:17,329 --> 00:25:19,325 risks are. And I'm like, I don't understand 720 00:25:19,325 --> 00:25:21,005 your data. I can look through it as 721 00:25:21,005 --> 00:25:24,205 an admin, but I don't necessarily know, should 722 00:25:24,205 --> 00:25:26,705 this file be shared with these people? 723 00:25:27,164 --> 00:25:28,545 That's gonna be on the 724 00:25:28,924 --> 00:25:31,085 person that created the content or shared it 725 00:25:31,085 --> 00:25:31,585 originally, 726 00:25:32,445 --> 00:25:34,259 where it sounds like some of your reports. 727 00:25:34,339 --> 00:25:36,099 Yeah. I could just go in and say, 728 00:25:36,099 --> 00:25:38,259 here's all your content. Go figure it out 729 00:25:38,259 --> 00:25:40,579 yourself. Exactly. Because you understand your own content. 730 00:25:40,579 --> 00:25:42,900 Exactly. Right. And we and it was very 731 00:25:42,900 --> 00:25:44,740 timely. We have a a broad we're, you 732 00:25:44,740 --> 00:25:45,240 know, 733 00:25:45,940 --> 00:25:48,744 relatively smallish, you know, in number size, we're 734 00:25:48,744 --> 00:25:51,625 about 3,000, 35 100 people soaking wet, but 735 00:25:51,625 --> 00:25:54,525 we're global. And we have global customer advisory 736 00:25:54,585 --> 00:25:56,585 councils and things like that. It was really 737 00:25:56,585 --> 00:25:58,585 astounding earlier this year to do the the 738 00:25:58,585 --> 00:26:00,744 road show and talk to all customers as 739 00:26:00,744 --> 00:26:02,424 all of these concerns are coming up. And 740 00:26:02,424 --> 00:26:04,769 to a to a person, they came back 741 00:26:04,769 --> 00:26:05,509 and said, 742 00:26:05,970 --> 00:26:08,210 I have an idea that something might be 743 00:26:08,210 --> 00:26:10,769 wrong over there. Right? I think there might 744 00:26:10,769 --> 00:26:12,609 be a problem over here, but I don't 745 00:26:12,609 --> 00:26:14,609 have the authority or the knowledge to do 746 00:26:14,609 --> 00:26:17,009 something about it. Right? Because I don't know 747 00:26:17,009 --> 00:26:18,470 the content. Right? So 748 00:26:19,085 --> 00:26:22,045 slapping an encryption label on something has a 749 00:26:22,045 --> 00:26:24,445 business impact. Right? Deleting a file I think 750 00:26:24,445 --> 00:26:26,765 isn't needed anymore has a business impact. Yep. 751 00:26:26,765 --> 00:26:28,684 So, so that's what we're really focused on 752 00:26:28,684 --> 00:26:30,384 in bringing those kind of visibility 753 00:26:30,684 --> 00:26:32,684 down to the owners of data. Okay. For 754 00:26:32,684 --> 00:26:34,549 a long time we've done, like, periodic 755 00:26:34,850 --> 00:26:37,730 recertifications and attestations. That's been a practice we've 756 00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:39,890 helped customers do for a long time. What's 757 00:26:39,890 --> 00:26:41,410 new is people started coming to us and 758 00:26:41,410 --> 00:26:43,809 saying, can they run this on demand? Right? 759 00:26:43,809 --> 00:26:44,950 Users are asking 760 00:26:45,410 --> 00:26:47,365 to enter this sort of process. And we 761 00:26:47,365 --> 00:26:48,724 say, what if we did one better? Right? 762 00:26:48,724 --> 00:26:49,304 And then 763 00:26:50,005 --> 00:26:52,404 the information was always there. Got it. Always 764 00:26:52,404 --> 00:26:54,404 there and available to you. Not everybody, you 765 00:26:54,404 --> 00:26:56,005 know, will will take it up. So you 766 00:26:56,005 --> 00:26:58,204 do still need more governed processes of Yep. 767 00:26:58,325 --> 00:27:00,150 Ability and things. But, you know, one of 768 00:27:00,150 --> 00:27:01,750 the first things we said in our in 769 00:27:01,750 --> 00:27:02,890 our Copilot 770 00:27:03,269 --> 00:27:03,769 pilot 771 00:27:04,390 --> 00:27:06,330 was go clean up your OneDrive. 772 00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:09,109 And when you hear yourself say that to 773 00:27:09,109 --> 00:27:11,590 a user that, you know, doesn't understand SharePoint 774 00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:15,184 permissions, doesn't understand sharing links versus Right. Like, 775 00:27:15,244 --> 00:27:16,924 where do I go to do that? Right? 776 00:27:16,924 --> 00:27:19,105 Right. Having a destination to send them 777 00:27:19,565 --> 00:27:21,244 to give put some teeth behind that kind 778 00:27:21,244 --> 00:27:23,325 of directive. Because I feel like Microsoft does. 779 00:27:23,325 --> 00:27:25,164 They they tell everybody how to share. Oh, 780 00:27:25,164 --> 00:27:26,944 yeah. They don't tell anybody how to unshare. 781 00:27:29,789 --> 00:27:31,230 Yeah. And and even with that, I mean, 782 00:27:31,230 --> 00:27:32,350 I think if we look at some of 783 00:27:32,350 --> 00:27:33,650 the innovations they're bringing, 784 00:27:34,110 --> 00:27:36,930 you know, really powerful things like, you know, 785 00:27:38,430 --> 00:27:40,830 restricting site policies, so you can basically put 786 00:27:40,830 --> 00:27:43,230 a firewall over a whole site. Yep. That's 787 00:27:43,230 --> 00:27:43,964 cool. Right? 788 00:27:44,525 --> 00:27:45,964 In SharePoint has been a, you know, a 789 00:27:45,964 --> 00:27:48,464 holy grail people have been looking for. However, 790 00:27:49,164 --> 00:27:51,184 the problem exists at the file level. 791 00:27:51,484 --> 00:27:53,164 So we do have to eventually get there. 792 00:27:53,164 --> 00:27:55,244 Right? And that's where, you know, owners of 793 00:27:55,244 --> 00:27:57,804 those files can know. That's a problem. That's 794 00:27:57,804 --> 00:27:59,244 not a problem. Right? They know that very 795 00:27:59,244 --> 00:28:01,190 efficiently. So Let's just let them make those 796 00:28:01,190 --> 00:28:02,170 decisions. So, 797 00:28:02,549 --> 00:28:04,230 in the product, like, you would generate that 798 00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:06,230 report for the owner. Do you actually let 799 00:28:06,230 --> 00:28:09,029 them then, like, slap sensitivity on it or 800 00:28:09,029 --> 00:28:11,190 delete permissions right from the reports? We have 801 00:28:11,190 --> 00:28:13,190 a monitor internally. I don't show you something 802 00:28:13,190 --> 00:28:14,804 if I can't help you fix it. Okay. 803 00:28:14,804 --> 00:28:16,164 Because, you know, I'm not looking to get 804 00:28:16,164 --> 00:28:18,484 anybody fired. Right? Right. So here's a look 805 00:28:18,484 --> 00:28:20,085 at the big problem you have. Right. Hi. 806 00:28:20,085 --> 00:28:21,684 Good luck. Go go try to figure out 807 00:28:21,684 --> 00:28:23,045 how to fix it though. No. No. No. 808 00:28:23,045 --> 00:28:24,644 And so we do 2 things. Number 1, 809 00:28:24,644 --> 00:28:26,644 absolutely. We give them the ability to understand 810 00:28:26,644 --> 00:28:28,424 what's going on there. They can view 811 00:28:28,859 --> 00:28:31,359 audit history. They can view activities. They can 812 00:28:31,579 --> 00:28:33,759 revoke sharing. They can change permissions. 813 00:28:34,619 --> 00:28:36,380 But what we also try to do is 814 00:28:36,380 --> 00:28:38,220 is provide a little guidance. So not only 815 00:28:38,220 --> 00:28:40,140 do we say, here's a file that's shared 816 00:28:40,140 --> 00:28:42,525 with a 1000 people, and, hey, I think 817 00:28:42,525 --> 00:28:43,184 it's sensitive. 818 00:28:43,644 --> 00:28:45,725 We also allow the organization to set up, 819 00:28:45,965 --> 00:28:47,265 sort of a risk matrix, 820 00:28:47,565 --> 00:28:50,045 where they can say red, yellow, green. Right? 821 00:28:50,045 --> 00:28:51,505 High, medium, low risk. 822 00:28:51,805 --> 00:28:53,644 And so we push that down to the 823 00:28:53,644 --> 00:28:55,325 users and say, here are all your high 824 00:28:55,325 --> 00:28:57,609 risk stuff and risk now defined by that 825 00:28:57,609 --> 00:29:00,650 organization and their process. Okay. So that helps 826 00:29:00,650 --> 00:29:02,330 them focus as well. Because just showing them 827 00:29:02,330 --> 00:29:05,369 information without context, sometimes a little overwhelming. Right. 828 00:29:05,369 --> 00:29:08,170 Yeah. Very cool. Well, I know we're running 829 00:29:08,170 --> 00:29:10,170 up on time. You have a deadline here. 830 00:29:10,170 --> 00:29:11,390 Anything else 831 00:29:11,794 --> 00:29:13,174 you want to share with people 832 00:29:14,194 --> 00:29:16,035 in the podcast show notes we can we'll 833 00:29:16,035 --> 00:29:18,755 get from you Yeah. Social media, websites, links 834 00:29:18,755 --> 00:29:20,994 that we can do. Me spelling out the 835 00:29:20,994 --> 00:29:22,595 w w w Right. This is how you 836 00:29:22,595 --> 00:29:24,674 go spell everything. Right. Exactly. Anything else you 837 00:29:24,674 --> 00:29:25,734 want people to know? 838 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,680 Yeah. I think I think, you know, one 839 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,000 of the things that that AvePoint, we've been 840 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,279 in the, you know, in this space, as 841 00:29:32,279 --> 00:29:34,380 you said, for over 20 years now. 842 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:36,140 That's crazy to say that. 843 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,099 Wow. But, yeah, SharePoint 2,001, 844 00:29:39,559 --> 00:29:42,515 God bless. Yeah. Right. Oh, man. But Yeah. 845 00:29:42,515 --> 00:29:44,755 So so all of this time, one of 846 00:29:44,755 --> 00:29:46,595 the things that I think is the is 847 00:29:46,595 --> 00:29:48,535 has been really beneficial to us 848 00:29:48,994 --> 00:29:49,654 is really 849 00:29:50,194 --> 00:29:50,694 understanding 850 00:29:50,994 --> 00:29:53,075 through you know, my my team especially spends 851 00:29:53,075 --> 00:29:55,794 all their time gathering feedback, gathering feedback, understanding 852 00:29:55,794 --> 00:29:57,980 feedback. Yes, from our field, but mostly from 853 00:29:57,980 --> 00:29:58,640 our customers. 854 00:29:59,019 --> 00:30:00,880 So I would encourage you to, you know, 855 00:30:00,940 --> 00:30:03,200 yes, we have solutions, but first and foremost, 856 00:30:03,740 --> 00:30:06,539 we've really been digging into this. So, you 857 00:30:06,539 --> 00:30:07,039 know, 858 00:30:07,659 --> 00:30:09,740 I would encourage customers reach out, take a 859 00:30:09,740 --> 00:30:11,075 look at some of the, you know, publicly 860 00:30:11,075 --> 00:30:12,755 available information. We're trying to put some thought 861 00:30:12,755 --> 00:30:14,674 leadership. We've been long term sort of community 862 00:30:14,674 --> 00:30:16,515 people as well. So this is not, you 863 00:30:16,515 --> 00:30:17,955 know, this is more than just a product 864 00:30:17,955 --> 00:30:20,434 thing. We're really trying to help people figure 865 00:30:20,434 --> 00:30:21,174 this out. 866 00:30:21,634 --> 00:30:24,319 Awesome. Sounds good. Well, thanks a lot, JP. 867 00:30:24,319 --> 00:30:26,000 Yeah. It was a pleasure. Do you go 868 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,079 by John or JP or both? Or I 869 00:30:28,079 --> 00:30:30,259 will answer to anything. Anything? 870 00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:33,039 You will answer to anything. Alright. And probably, 871 00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:34,240 if you're not talking to me but you 872 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,159 speak sternly, I will also respond. You'll also 873 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,765 Okay. Sounds good. Well, thanks. We appreciate it. 874 00:30:38,765 --> 00:30:40,444 Appreciate you sitting down with us and Yeah. 875 00:30:40,444 --> 00:30:42,285 Thanks for the opportunity. It was great to 876 00:30:42,285 --> 00:30:43,345 great to have a chat. 877 00:30:45,244 --> 00:30:47,484 If you enjoyed the podcast, go leave us 878 00:30:47,484 --> 00:30:49,724 a 5 star rating in iTunes. It helps 879 00:30:49,724 --> 00:30:51,509 to get the word out so more IT 880 00:30:51,509 --> 00:30:54,170 pros can learn about Office 365 and Azure. 881 00:30:54,789 --> 00:30:56,390 If you have any questions you want us 882 00:30:56,390 --> 00:30:58,549 to address on the show, or feedback about 883 00:30:58,549 --> 00:31:00,950 the show, feel free to reach out via 884 00:31:00,950 --> 00:31:03,130 our website, Twitter, or Facebook. 885 00:31:03,430 --> 00:31:05,349 Thanks again for listening, and have a great 886 00:31:05,349 --> 00:31:05,849 day.

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Microsoft Cloud IT Pro Podcast

Ben Stegink, Scott Hoag

On the MS Cloud IT Pro Podcast, Scott and Ben discuss the Microsoft Cloud with a focus on IT Pros. They'll discuss the latest in Microsoft 365 and Office 365 News, Azure news and talk about their experiences with managing the Microsoft Cloud as well as interview industry experts on various cloud technology. They'll cover things such as SharePoint, Exchange, Microsoft Teams, PowerShell, Azure, Azure AD, Security, Networking, Storage, and the many other technologies and products that have made their way into the Microsoft 365 suite and Azure. To stay up-to-date on the latest in Microsoft Cloud news and gain some valuable knowledge as you deploy it within your own organization, make sure to tune in every week! Find out more at msclouditpropodcast.com.

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