Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast.
My name is Jeff Akin and I am the one who was,
Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I am the one who will be.
Jeff: We're watching Babylon 5 for the first time for you, the one who is
Brent: That's right. Jeff and I are two veterans. Star Trek podcasters who decided to start a brand new podcast all about Babylon. Five. Where we are applying those skills, we learned as Star Trek, podcasters and Overanalyzing an episode seeking out messages wherever they may be, regardless of the quality of the episode itself.
And that's what we're doing here, where we are looking for the important messages that Babylon five is trying to deliver in its own unique way.
Jeff: important messages, Babylon, five messages, if you will. We've been doing this podcast a really long time, we've been saying, and I was literally just thinking how I'm like, we're gonna autopilot this thing. And I totally lost my, lost my
Brent: 106 episodes, Jeff, 106 episodes right now.
Jeff: it's, we're fine. Hi, YouTube. Hi.
Brent: If, if we were, if we were our own TV show, we would be syndicated now. So gotta think about it, right?
Jeff: that's pretty wild. Okay, but we're not looking for Star Trek messages because this is not a Star Trek podcast at all. In fact, all we're gonna do, what am I doing man? What am I doing?
Brent: you ok? Do we need to reset the whole thing? We'll turn this one off. Start the whole thing over again. What do you think?
Jeff: I'm gonna pick up my whole line again and just, just go as I'm supposed to. Those important messages, those Babylon five messages, because Brent, despite the unpopular opinion out there, we are not. A Star Trek podcast and to prove that we play a game called The Rule of Three. This is a game where we limit ourselves to no more than collectively making three references to Star Trek per episode.
That's it. Three one of those plays, no substitutions. Exchanges a refund.
Brent: And if we do make one of those references, Jeff,
Jeff: You're gonna hear this very, very appreciated sound.
Brent: I hear that sound on my sleep these days, Jeff.
Jeff: I'll bet. I'll bet.
Brent: Well, guys, while we are most definitely not a Star Trek podcast, it's possible those references could slip in. So the buzz comes and all that sort of stuff, and we laugh and we giggle, and that's the game we play called The Rule of Three. Now, there is another game that we like to play in the show where when we get to the end of the episode, we'll take a look at the title for next week's episode.
That is the only thing we'll seen. We haven't watched the episode yet, we haven't read descriptions. We try not to even look at the thumbnails. And then we play a game where we try to guess what that episode is gonna be about. And now it is time to play a different game that we like to call.
Jeff: Time to pay the piper.
Brent: And this is where we revisit our prediction from last week to see if we got it right.
So, Jeff, what did you say meditations on the Abyss was gonna be about and how close were you?
Jeff: You know, in a fun way, we got sidetracked last week, so I didn't get to state my entire, uh, predictions. So what I, yeah, I was listening back to it last week and I'm like, I never actually made a prediction on this one, but I did write my prediction ahead of time, so I'll share it now. And I think part of what I did think, cause I thought we were gonna be in the world of Telepaths still, this was gonna be a focus on Telepaths and specifically I thought that Lita was gonna be forming up her group of disenfranchised telepaths and the meditations on the abyss was gonna be her really wrestling with how far she was willing to go.
Brent: um, can you hit your buzzer over there? Sorry.
Jeff: Yeah, that's a big
Brent: Not at all. What this episode was about, like, not even in the realm of what this episode was about.
Jeff: What
Brent: wanna know what the, you wanna know what the realm this episode was about?
Jeff: What was that?
Brent: realm of monsters, cuz that was my prediction, was this was gonna be all about monsters.
And what we were gonna do is we were gonna meet a demigod and he was gonna be searching for his lost magic hook. And we were gonna go down into the depths, into the abyss where we'd meet a giant crab who has decorated himself with all sorts of shiny objects and he was gonna sing about himself and all that sort of stuff.
Jeff: Yeah, we, we kinda missed this one. Um, altogether.
Brent: Yeah. Actually I said this was gonna be about the rock and the minions and shadows and I'm not sure that Jeff got what I was just talking about there.
Jeff: I didn't, I was actually making a
Brent: Not even paying attention. Jeff didn't even hear, did you? Not even, I was going, I was going, when is he gonna stop me? You know what, Jeff? I'm not even telling you what I just said.
I'm gonna make you go back and listen to it when you publish it.
Jeff: And I'm just gonna be like, oh my God, I totally just right in the strike zone. I probably, whatever. Yeah.
Brent: now there's a joke from me and everybody else that Jeff has no idea what's going on. So Jeff, let me just say you are welcome.
Jeff: Well thanks, I appreciate that. I'm, I'm here now. I'm here. We're gonna be fine. Brent, we did not get at all what this episode is gonna be about and I bet there are other people out there who are like, gosh, I keep trying to remember this. I'm meditating here in this place on an abyss. If you would, trying to remember what this episode is about, can you remind everyone what meditations on the Abyss was all about?
Brent: Well, it was the night before Christmas, and on Babylon five, not a creature was stirring except Delin, who's in bed, but she can't sleep. And on her nightstand, there's a crystal pyramid straight outta my grandmama's house that starts to glow. She quietly slips out of bed and tells Sheridan she's gonna go check on some paperwork for a meeting tomorrow, and then immediately proceeds to a CD nightclub.
She's doing that whole half cloaked face, sitting in a table alone, waiting for someone type thing. When someone just pulls up a chair, he gets very, very inappropriate and pushy. And despite her attempts to rebuff, he insists that his face is the one she's gonna be seeing when she wakes up in the morning.
At which point, Delaine using only her middle finger on a hand that is very evidently bearing a wedding ring, breaks the other dude's middle finger.
He tries to chase her down as she moves off frame, but that's when another cloaked figure springs into action and goes All Minbar Ninja Warrior on his butt. It's Lanier. And he has answered len's bat signal. She has a mission for the newly minted endless shock, Lanier, although honestly, I preferred when we just called him a ranger, but whatever.
And while he's not actually a full and endless shock yet, he is still technically in training. But that's cool because it's actually gonna work out in favor of the mission. Now, what is this mission you ask? I said, what is this mission? You may ask.
Jeff: Am I supposed to ask?
Brent: I said, what is this mission? You may ask,
Jeff: What am I missing here?
Brent: ask me what the mission was.
Jeff: Oh, I'm supposed to ask,
Brent: Yes.
Jeff: what is this mission?
Brent: Oh, I'm so glad you asked. You see, Delen has some evidence that the sari are the ones who have been behind the recent attacks on the shipping lines out in neutral space. But she needs proof, so she's sending Lanier to the Sari border on board White Star 27 a k a, the Maria, where he will take part in training exercises with the Maria.
But in reality, he's also there looking for proof that the Centar, but in reality, he's also there looking for proof that the Sari are the ones who are behind the attacks. Lanier's a bit nervous ever since Morden came back on the day of the dead and told him that he was gonna betray the endless shock.
But good news for Lanier, nothing with that happens in the rest of this episode. I think j m s just wanted to remind us that that happened. Now while Lanier is reporting for duty, why don't we check in on the other cast members? Londo has made a major decision that when he leaves B five, he is going to appoint a Ari's Levin, ve Codo, to full ambassador on Babylon five.
Londo says he's not quite ready for the job yet. But by the time Londo has to return to Sari Prime, veer will be, he will be over in the president's office. Sheridan and Jaar are meeting with a Drsi ambassador who has also come to suspect Sari involvement in the shipping line attacks, which is perhaps why the Drsi saw fit to bug lawn's groceries.
It didn't really work though, and Lando wound up having some fun at the expense of the Drsi Ambassador's Wife. Now flash over to Med Lab where Jaar is there as well, and he's getting a fancy new red robot eye to replace the blue one. He's been sporting for the last year. While there, Franklin's Foundationalist beliefs are aroused by the prospect of speaking with a living prophet and Franklin decides to attend Jakarta's Next church meeting, Jaar Waxes.
Philosophical, theological, ecumenical. Talking about a light that is bouncing off a wall and how people get distracted by what the light is bouncing off of rather than the source of the light itself. But folks aren't really getting it. That is until an exasperated Ja car just to declare us God is the light, and now they all seem to get it.
All right. Let's get back to Lanier Recruit. Lanier meets his Captain Montoya and he meets a new friend, fellow recruit Fde. Captain Montoya looks at him, says, my name is Amigo Montoya. You killed my father Prepared to die. No, I'm just joking. Captain Montoya has a training mission for them. There's a head out in Mumbar fighters and Scout around for a little bit, but unbeknownst to Lanier and Findel, this is not actually what's going to happen.
You see the real test for them comes when the Maria jumps away to hyperspace, leaving the two trainees behind, only to realize that instead of seven hours of air in their ship, they only have one. Lanier stays cool and collected. Findel panics. And of course, right at the last moment, the Maria jumps back in and collects them.
Score one for Lanier. So far so good. His cover has not been blown. All right. Day two. Another training exercise introduces two more recruits. Their names aren't really important. What is important is the math. You see, this one's gonna be an Easter egg hunt. The captain says they're at an asteroid field and hidden in the asteroids are these short little range beacons.
They've gotta find and destroy 10 of them, but with four fighters, there's only 39 beacons, meaning someone is going to fail this mission. Lanier takes an early lead. We don't really care about the other two, and Findel basically gives up because he's going to lose. And he says he didn't really want to be a endless shock in the first place.
He just sort of felt obligated to jump in. So he does the only thing that he thinks is noble. He sets a. Suicide course for a nearby asteroid. Lanier, with some quick thinking and tinkering, actually winds up firing on Lindell's ship, knocking him out of the way and saving Fidel's life. But back on the ship, captain Montoya decides to reassign Fidel to recruitment duty and he berates Lanier in front of everyone for firing on one of his own.
And he fails linear for the mission. Privately though the captain. Thanks Lanier for saving Fidel's life and Oh yeah, we heard every word that you guys were saying out there when you were trying to be in a private communique. Well, in case you were wondering exactly how the end of this whole thing with linear happens, well, we're just gonna have to tune in next week or maybe the week after, because hopefully we'll get it then, cuz we certainly didn't get it in this episode.
That's it. Well, all of that and the fact that we have a sword wielding grocery store busting up vengeful veer, whom Londo declares is now ready. To take on the job. And there's also a very drunken garibaldi sprawled out on the floor who just wants some pizza. Jeff, what'd you think of this episode?
Meditation's on the abyss,
Jeff: I loved a lot of parts of this episode. I loved the vere stuff. Oh my God, I loved the Vere stuff. It was so much fun. I liked, I loved Jaar and Franklin. There was stuff that early on in the series I, I specifically really bagged on Franklin for around his foundationalist beliefs. And this is a really cool way of introducing that stuff and making it relevant.
I liked that. Um, these two stories, right? The kar stuff, the vere kind of growing into his new role. These are two stories that feel like they belong in the fifth season of a five season story arc, right? Vere getting more legit. Um, the, the sharing of faith. All these things are natural progressions and things we've expected to see.
Do you, Brent, remember when we thought this whole shipping lane thing was just kind of flimsy and dumb and whatever? Yeah. It turns out it's gonna be the story. I guess I'm glad that they're wrapping Lanier into it because that means he didn't just go away. You know, he is not just a bit player, like they're bringing him back in.
Um, in fact, I actually think Lanier is going to be absolutely pivotal moving forward. We'll get to that when we get to predictions on this one, but I'm gonna sound like a broken record here. Did we seriously just take an entire episode, one of the very last episodes of the entire series to dive into analyst shock training?
Like is that what we got a glimpse into their training and learning curve, and that was kind of cool. It did other things to move some story things forward. This one kind of just showed us the thing. It took a lot of time. To show us this stuff. Maybe they're setting us up for a spinoff. Maybe that's what JMS is doing at this point.
I'm gonna shotgun a whole bunch of ideas out there and see which one can get me another series at the end of this thing, because I don't know, I, I had a hard time getting through this episode. Um, when I sat down, you know, I do my reaction on my first watch through, and then I do a second watch to take notes.
And I had a really hard time sitting down to take notes on this one. If, if it wasn't for the veer and the Jaar stuff for this one, I would've been personally watching this about as uncomfortable as those pilots and min bari fighters have to be while they're flying those things.
Brent: Do you really think they're any more comfortable than the beds they sleep in at night though?
Jeff: Yeah. What a horrible minbar have to just be miserable.
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: What a, uh, well, personally, I hope that we are at the end of the abyss. And that stuff is gonna actually start happening in this series. Brent, what did what? What were your initials on this one? What did you think? Right away? Out of it?
Brent: So let's remember last week just a little bit. All right. That was the Cora's mother course's father, right? T C I M T C I F. And I believe I said in that episode that it felt like it might be a backdoor pilot for a new series. You just sort of referenced that a second ago, you, you also said, when we got to this pot, you said, Brent, you know, just to remind the folks out there, you and I don't share notes.
We don't compare notes. We don't really talk about the episode until we get to this moment to try to make this conversation as unique or organic as possible. And then you proceeded to read me what you wrote down for your opening thoughts. Allow me to now return the favor.
Jeff: Oh man.
Brent: I'm still not sure what we're doing here.
Why this story at this spot, we have eight episodes left. I typically really like training op episodes. They're fun. And this one had all the hallmark all, and this one had all the hallmarks of a fun training op episode. But at this point in the series, why this story? Also, Lanier was sent out there to look for Delin, but came back with nothing.
There wasn't a conversation at the end that said, Hey, I'm still looking, but I didn't find anything. Let's continue this next week. There was nothing, it, that whole piece was just left unresolved. He gets back to the ship and then he gets blasted for doing something and then privately gets a pat on the back.
Did he ever really find anything out for Delin though? We, we don't know. They just left it there. Is this a another backdoor pilot?
Jeff, let me, let me ask you a question. How would you feel if last week is the last time we ever saw Ster and this week was the last time we ever saw Lanier?
Jeff: It would be the dumbest thing ever. Literally, the dumbest things ever.
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: Yeah. I mean, because I mean, right now ster is built as the pivot point for this whole telepath conflict and the way they've brought Lanier in. I mean, honestly, there is a path on this that we never see Lanier again, and it would be disappointing, but I feel like they have set him up as the impetus to everyone learning what's going
Brent: Well, I mean, especially there, there's the whole cliffhanger of you're gonna betray the endless shock one day
Jeff: yeah.
Brent: that you've got to, that's got to be resolved somehow, some way in this show, right? Like, um, yeah. I, I, I just, that's what, that's what I feel like with this episode. Like it was, it was, this would've been a fantastic season one, season two episode.
If Lanier was gonna go join the analyst shock, he should have joined them back in season two or three when Delin took over for, uh, Sinclair, you know? Um, and then let him go through these training bits. But, I, I just, I don't understand what's going, I don't know, just, did Bill Mummy have contract issues?
Did he go do a movie and he wasn't available? Like, I, I don't understand. I just don't get it. And I'm with you on that and I'm, I'm still left with, we have eight episodes left and this is the episode you're giving me. I hope that it's setting us up for some big major ending. You and I keep kind of saying that, like, it, we've, something's gotta kick into gear.
And Jeff, I'm just not sure, like, yes, we have eight episodes left, so there's still plenty of time left. But
Jeff: Well,
Brent: what are we doing here?
Jeff: you and I know, like, we'll just share this. We know that the series finale was filmed before season five. We've learned that,
Brent: Yes. Yes.
Jeff: Are they, are they literally just kind of treading water until they can drop that on us? Is that, is that what's happening here? Because it's what it feels like.
Brent: my, my other understanding is, is they didn't edit. The series finale from whatever they filmed last time. It's not like, Hey, we filmed the season finale. Okay, we're gonna shelve that idea. Let's do season five. We get to the end of season five. Hey, we're gonna record a few new scenes to, you know, go with what we said happened in season five to bring that into the story.
And then here's the, here's the I from what I understand, and I could be wrong. Please don't tell us out there, folks like Jeff and I already know too much about the future,
Jeff: Yep. Too much.
Brent: uh, but from my understanding is they, they didn't do any of that for this one. It's what we'll see at the end of this series is what was meant to come and place of deconstruction, of falling stars.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: That being said, Jeff, as you said, there are some really good parts to this episode.
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Brent: This is an episode. Let here, let me, I, I don't have this written down, but let me, let me say this. Tell me if you would agree with, this is an example of an episode. Where the individual parts are greater than the whole.
Jeff: Some of the individual parts. Well, you know what, yes and no. Cuz I think to, to your point, and even my point,
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: I think that I'm down on this episode because it's at the la last half of season. It's at the last half of season five. It's at the last section of the entire series. You plop this somewhere else.
It's a good episode. You know, I mean, the animal shock stuff was interesting. I, like you said, I dig those training up things. I liked how they did this. I liked the characters. Montoya, findel, the exercises they went through. Those were cool. But, but the other pieces, the, the veer growing up stuff, the Franklin and Jaar stuff that, I mean, frankly, I.
Franklin Franklin Liny, that stuff was pretty topnotch. Like that was really, really good. Really well
Brent: this was one of the least offensive Franklin episodes I've seen like
Jeff: Frank. I, I really liked, like, very much liked Franklin in this
Brent: I, I liked how he pro Well, let's talk about that. I liked how Franklin approached Jaar. He, they're in the middle of just kind of doing whatever, by the way, him pulling that eyeball out of JA car's head. Now granted that was a thousand percent a dummy head that they were pulling that eyeball out of. But it looked so good, like if only they could have somehow made it move.
You might have fooled me.
Jeff: It's almost as good as when, uh, Lanier got blasted in the bomb thing and convictions. Right. And like for so much of the episode, it was a wax dummy of him and I had no idea till, same thing with this like, Just was it looked, it looked Babylon five. We don't say this enough, but when it comes to like the physical, practical effects that they use a lot of the times in the makeup.
Holy
crud. So well
Brent: So Good. They really are. They really are. Um, But the, so pulling that out, he's getting a new eyeball. I wanna talk about the eyeball in just a moment, but Dr. Franklin's like, Hey, so tell me about this thing you got going on here. Profit. And he's like, I'm a foundationalist. I want to search this stuff out.
You know what, you know what had been great for this episode, brother Theo, remember
Jeff: Oh yeah.
Brent: like, Hey, we're, we're trying to seek out all the names of God. Let's find out what you call him. Speaking of somebody who just disappeared one day, like, man, uh, and then he goes and he, he actually like shows up at his church service, like Franklin's not of that faith.
And he shows up to check it out and see what's up. Like the open-mindedness of that to be like, I'm just gonna come. Listen. He didn't have to come in and preach and hold signs and anything like that. He just came and, and participated. Like, I'm just, I'm gonna go check it out. I'm not gonna be like, oh, that's not for me.
I'm good. Like, Let's go see. I'm curious. Let's go see.
Jeff: And a really cool moment between the two of 'em when I just, I mean, I feel like this is gonna be a theme through Ja Car's, uh, this, this prophet Jaar story of just the, the, the sheer ignorance and just, you know, baby Mama, you b feed me baby, you know, baby bird feed the baby bird of, of, you know, fundamentalists and Seco fans.
But that moment where Jaar is like, how are you not understanding what I'm saying? And he and Franklin look at each other and Franklin's like, I got you dude. You got this. Like, it's cool. I thought that was a really neat moment where they. They really connected on like this thing that's deep and important to both of them, even though they're coming at it from different places.
Like that was a really powerful moment.
Brent: So I was caught up in something else in that moment,
Jeff: Okay.
Brent: just trying to understand what Jaar was talking about, and, and, and. You know, this, this is where I think I got taken out of the episode because it, it started coming back to my own faith and, and my own, my own reality of, of dealing, dealing with my own faith and other people's face and, and what that whole piece looks like.
And, you know, like I was listening to Jaar and I'm just like, this is so hokey what you're saying right now, dude. Like, it is so, it it, like, it sounds like it was written for television, which was like, I mean, it, it sounds exactly like what it is. Uh, but this whole thing about the light and, you know, Jaar wasn't making the, making it easy.
He wasn't boiling it down for the folks. But I love that moment that you're talking about where he is just like, how do you guys not understand what I'm saying here? And if I just like, God is the light, they're like, oh yeah. And I'm like, no, that's not actually what he was trying to like, maybe it is like.
Jeff: I think there's a lot to unpack there on, on Modern Religion and how much of it is someone just being like, fine, truth is the river and God is the mouth of the river. There you go. Geez, you're not getting it. And then some people grab that and then like, go kill people because of that one line, you know?
Or what like, oh, now we're, we got our marching, we can do this. But I felt like, and I think to me, what's, what's weird is I don't think Jaar ever started writing or recording this stuff with the intent of being a religious figure or having anyone believe that he knew God. He's literally just taking a philosophical view of the events that he has experienced and people are taking it to that next level.
And he's kind of, as they ask questions, riffing, you know, he is just like, um, a light, there's a, a light and a and a wall. There's, what I did find interesting in that is, it's almost the same analogy you brought up Brother Theo. I'll bring up Brother Edward. It's almost the same analogy that Lanier used with Brother Edward when he was talking about them in bari faith and how, like imagine that there's a blank wall and there's the universe and the, yeah, so it's like this whole, I think JMS has this belief system or whatever for himself built around, you know what, it's built around it, what it sounds like is the Plato's allegory of the cave.
Do you know
Brent: I do not. Please explain.
Jeff: So I don't know it super well, and I know there are people that are watching and listening who know better. So please feel free to elaborate. It's a fascinating concept. But the allegory is people, humanity live in this dark cave and there are fires, you know, so they can cook and have heat and light.
And what they see from the fires are the shadows of what exist in reality. So a tree, a bird, um, a mountain, whatever they see the shadows of them cast up on the wall and they believe those shadows are reality. What they don't know is there's an entire reality beyond the fires that, you know, has much more depth, much more color, uh, much more vibrant life behind it.
And so a big part of Plato's teachings are to leave the cave, right, go out and actually experience the things instead of the shadows of the things. And I think part of what Jaar is saying here, and maybe even part of what you know, the Minbar faith, is we're seeing reflections. Or shadows or lights of what's really out there and what really exists.
Our challenge is to acknowledge that and then try to see beyond it, to leave the cave, as it were, in the minbar faith. That's the universe trying to figure things out. In Ja Jaar, he's BSing his way around a way of basically saying, Hey, you know what God is, whatever you th whatever you need God to be, it's a reflection of you.
And, and that's fine because God is the place of all truth and you gotta figure out what that is for you or whatever. So, I dunno, I, I think there's a through line back from passing through Gethsemane that really gives us some insight into JM S'S belief system.
Brent: a thousand percent agree. I also had that same. Reminiscence, I guess that, that I was also reminded of what Linear had said, and I remember thinking in the moment like this, what Jaar saying right now makes about as much sense as what linear was saying back
Jeff: Right.
Brent: Um, yeah, that, with that, without getting into big, deep theological conversations, which we don't wanna do here, like
Jeff: don't, but it's tempting, right? Because like I had some of those thought, I'll just say that like I think it prompts those thoughts and a thing that Babylon five does for us as the viewer is it asks, it presents, it doesn't even necessarily ask the question. It presents some questions we can choose to grab 'em and think about or not.
But I think that you're right, this doesn't make sense. It's jaar in a beautifully ver, you know, verbalized way, painting a picture to be like, I don't know either.
Brent: it, it definitely, it definitely sounds like a guy who has grown up in. Some sort of a religious system who has become an atheist as he gets older, trying to reconcile what he heard as a kid versus what he now believes as an adult and bring those pieces together.
Jeff: Try and make it all make
Brent: Exactly, exactly. Did my camera just go out?
Jeff: Yep. You are just a big cloud
Brent: Yep. Hold on. So welcome to the behind the scenes guys.
Jeff: This is a fun one for YouTube. I'm totally on my game. Your tech is doing
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: Let's meditate on that for a moment.
Brent: Yeah.
Uh, okay. Does that bring you back?
Jeff: Nope. Frankly, though, I think it looks good on you.
Brent: Yeah, I, I mean, it is probably a better, better way to look at me. All right. That should go away. Sorry. So what this is for the folks out there wondering is, uh, you know, I, before that I use my, uh, uh, my phone, there it is as my camera, because turns out cameras have a really good, or phones have really good cameras in them.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: You know what I mean? And that was, I just started getting a phone call.
Now, typically when there's a phone call, it doesn't mess with this at all. It's just like, Hey, you have an alert. For some reason it made it go weird. I have no idea why.
Jeff: That's weird,
Brent: Yeah, yeah. I don't know. Apple pushed out an update that probably broke the thing.
Jeff: right?
Brent: I'm sorry, Jeff, what were you saying? Or what was I saying?
Jeff: think we wrapped up. I think it was, that was a good, that was a good place to stop on
Brent: Great, great. Um, let's talk about that I for a second.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: Why.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: Like, I'm glad that Jaar gets a red eye. I kind of have enjoyed him having the little thorn in the side, so to speak, of having the blue eye. The blue eye is in the opening credits of the season. I, if they don't change for the next episode, I'm gonna be mad.
Jeff: They've done a good job updating credits like back in season two with the land and stuff like that. So I wouldn't be surprised, but I have a theory,
Brent: put you,
Jeff: I have a theory about that eye.
Brent: please do. Because I'm sitting here going like, did t and t just give them money that they could now make the I and he could afford a new contact or something? Like I, I just, why again, why? It's fine. Why?
Jeff: got the eye back in season four, Franklin said It's gonna take some time to get this set up for, uh, to match your eye color cuz this is a human technology that he's kind of adapting for, for him as a narn. So it showed up. That's cool. It's still kind of weird, you know, the whole thing. It just was like, because they spent a lot of time on on it because the conversation they were having, but also the effects, they spent a good chunk of money on the effects for it.
But what I noticed was while he was buffing the eye and cleaning it and getting it all ready to put in, which by the way, when he put it in, it was literally just like boop, just the easiest. Little, little, little pop in there, which is just cool. He must have like a U S B C port in there. It doesn't matter if it's up or down, you know, it's just, uh, just fits regardless.
But he had the vision, the view of the eye up on the monitors
Brent: right,
Jeff: in his, in his thing. It's wireless. There's nothing connecting it to anything. Is his eye hackable
Brent: Well, if the Alexa in my bedroom is hackable, then probably.
Jeff: probably. Which makes me wonder. Is that how the Drsi and other Alliance worlds are wise to the fact the Sari are involved in the shipping lane stuff? Has Jaar been compromised? Has his eye been hacked? And what's gonna happen to his old eye? Does Franklin destroy that or is it out there where someone else might grab it and it's still like, does it have stuff?
Brent: It's, it's back on, uh, John and DE's dresser. Nightstands just hanging out. Weird ass eye hanging out there.
Jeff: president and First Lady of the Alliance, triple X, it's the web.
Brent: if I, if I may pause it and answer to your question. I think the answer is no. I don't, I don't think that's what it is. Could it be Sure. Good to speculate. Would I, would I, would I be shocked in a couple episodes if they came back and said that that's what it was? No, but. Well, yeah, I would be, but I, I don't think that's where they're going with the story.
Like
Jeff: Because my thought was so he, cuz it would be disappointing if the whole eye thing was set up to one, make that awful joke of him watching them on their wedding night. And then two, the scene where he is got the, you know, the thing over his eye and war without end. If that's the whole point. Gosh, that's disappointing.
I mean it's, it looks cool. The
Brent: What if, what if the thing about covering the eye, because we, you remember, we were making the, the comparisons to Lord of the Rings for a long
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Brent: What if that eye is the Poland dear and like a thing over his eye was actually to like, because it's hackable, like now I can cover it up so nobody else can see what I see right now and I'll take it off when I want everybody.
I want the world to see what I'm seeing.
Jeff: oh yeah. I like, I like that better than my other thought, which was he just find out he is hacked. So he takes it out, puts it in a box, puts it away, and then just covers his eye up. Cuz he is like, well now you're just gonna look at this black box the whole time. But I like it better of just like, now you shall see. So let's talk about the linear stuff and then we can maybe wrap up on a high note with the veer stuff.
Brent: well, well, yes. If we're gonna talk about Lanier though, we need to start in the bedroom
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: with Franklin and, and Delin. Actually, I wanna start at the beginning. The opening for this episode was a real long, slow shot over Babylon five, and the music was very somber and very, like, this wasn't nighttime lullaby.
Were sleeping like this was like something heavy is happening and it, and then there's delan and she looks over and the bat signal pyramid thing going off, which I said in the recap, and I'll say it again, that pyramid, I swear to you, Jeff was on my grandmother's coffee table when I was growing up, but it was in that room that you're not allowed to go into as a
Jeff: Yep. Yep.
Brent: You know what I mean? Like the awful lemons room. It was in that room. Yeah. But like it was there and it was right next to the crystal lighter.
Jeff: The big, the big
Brent: the, the big fat one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You, you could see the butane in it. Like you could refill the butane. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. That thing we just dated ourselves, like we dated ourselves by talking about our grandmamas
Jeff: Right. It's like, oh wow, those guys.
Brent: man. Like you could murder somebody if you hit them in the head with, with one of
Jeff: Oh, totally. Yeah. No question.
Brent: yeah, yeah. So the, the little bat signal pyramid thing's going off and by the time we get to what all's going on, the somber music and the slow crawl over Babylon five didn't make much sense at all.
Jeff: Nope.
Brent: Now I'm totally picking this apart for minutiae cuz I hear people out there like, what are you talking about? The two cares? I'm like, I know, right? But I'm watching the opening of this episode and it set me up to believe one thing. That didn't actually come to pass. So, uh, delin gets up. Whatever happened to the idea that Mumbar don't lie, Jeff.
Jeff: Well, that's out the window for this one. A hundred percent. Not even protecting people's honor. There's just straight line all over the place in this
Brent: Straight up. Lied to her husband and he didn't believe it, but he was okay with it and rolled over and went back to bed anyway.
Jeff: tired. It takes a lot of energy to sign all those paperworks.
Brent: Yes. Yes. Just at some point you just get a stamp,
Jeff: Smartest thing I ever did say I got a rubber stamp for my signature, told my executive assistant, I'm like, you know, just, just do it.
Brent: Yeah. It's not a bad idea.
Jeff: It's pretty great and it also shows a lot of trust to the people you work with where he is like, you know what? I trust you with this. It's fine. And that empowers people to do really good things and make good decisions.
Brent: There you go. I like it. She puts on a cloak. And goes all Aragorn Ranger ish into a seedy cdy nightclub. And she talks to this dude, what are your, what are your thoughts on this dude? And just her going to the nightclub dressed like this in the middle of the night after lying to her husband through her tooth.
Jeff: I hate, I hate men because of this guy.
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: This guy's out there.
Brent: Yep.
Jeff: much any woman out there listening to this or watching this has probably experienced this guy at some point in their lives. And it just disgusted me. Like I just watched it and at first I'm like, this is ridiculous. No, actually this happens all the time.
And I hate, I hate men because of it.
Brent: Here's the thing. This is what I don't get, and I'm gonna speak as a man
Jeff: Okay,
Brent: mate. Okay? He pulls up a chair, he sits down, he is hitting on her, flirting with her, okay? She says, no. And he continues to pursue anyway. Should he have gone up and walked away at that point? Yes, he should have. Is that, is that what we were taught to do as men back in the nineties?
No, it is not. You sit there, you know, and, and whatever. Now when, as soon as he says, and she's like, no, no, no. And he's getting no with it. As soon as he looks at her and goes, when are you gonna get it through your skull? I'm the face you're gonna wake up to next in the morning,
Jeff: Whether you like it or not,
Brent: whether, yeah, I, where do you come up with that?
How do you like? And then all of a sudden she goes, oh, and she gets real soft and, you know, and he goes, okay, that's better. That's better. Where is your brain? What are you like, does that work ever? Because once she, once she has said, no, thank you. You, you then pursue a little bit more. And then she's like, no, no really.
No, and I'm not gonna ask you nicely again, that's when you go, okay, I'm out.
Jeff: Right. Sorry.
Brent: Like, I mean, you should have said, I'm out earlier, but you know, like, play it, play it out. Jeff, let's, let's say he did get her to, to go to bed with him and wake up in the mor. Is that really what you want?
Jeff: Um, you know, I, I, I have thoughts and answers on these. I don't, I'm not that guy and I've never been that woman and so I, I don't have a place to, to really stand, but I, my gut tells me it does work and it is what they want. Like, it's not what they really want, you know, like for real, you know? But I think we're, we're dealing with a lot of intersecting traumas here.
His traumas. The, the traumas he assumes that she has, and that many women do have, many people have it like, let's, let's, let's pull this even out of a gender place. This is really like a person coming and being aggressive to hook up with someone else. And I think the sad thing is, and you know what, this is what, okay, I want to, I want to preface this because this has gotta be activating for some people out there who have experienced this.
And I want to acknowledge that. Uh, before we dive in anymore, I also want to say that if, um, this is activating for you or you have experience here and this is a story you, uh, feel compelled or desire to share with us, we, um, we will. Treat it with the utmost respect and confidentiality. If that's, if that is what you choose to do, um, that's a thing I know about our community.
You're very open and sharing with your lives. It means, I can't tell you how much it means to us. Like it's one of the biggest texts Brent and I have back and forth of like, oh my gosh, you gotta look at this one in the inbox. It's, it's wow. Kind of a thing. But I wanna really acknowledge that this is a real thing people, um, and have, have had happen in, its in its heart.
But, um, yeah, I, I think this happens and I, and I think that people, um, feel that they feel obligated at some point of like, well, they said this is what's gonna happen. They'll be upset if I don't do it. I don't want 'em to be upset. In fact, gosh, I know a person very well who has shared this with me and it's hard to even think about, but there's a moment where this guy's getting aggressive and tough and you, they, they do the mental math of.
I can keep advocating for myself and standing up and this could get really ugly and tough, or I could just sleep with them and this'll be over tomorrow and I'll never have to worry about it again. And they just do that because it's easier. Yeah. Oh, it hurt. Like it hurts to even
Brent: I'm, I'm so oblivious to stuff like that cuz it's, it's not how I was raised, it's not where I come from. It's not been my experience. And to anyone out there who has ever experienced that. I'm so sorry. On, on behalf of men.
Jeff: everywhere.
Brent: Men suck and we like, we're not all like that
Jeff: Well, you know, I think it's a thing, and this isn't an excuse, this isn't a justification, but you just, you said a powerful thing in the nineties. This is men were not trained to walk away. We were trained. Literally no means no. And until it means yes. The only difference between, you know, quote unquote, you know, making the score or whatever and not is persistence.
You keep pushing, you keep going and that's
Brent: I was, I was trained. The girls don't like good guys. They only like bad
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Brent: So you gotta be a bad guy. You got, you have, you have to just go for it. You just have to go for it, you know? Um, that, that's, that's the way I grew up. That's what I was, that's what I had coming up.
Jeff: We are the result. This, and this is a hard thing. It's a thing that I've really uncovered and in a lot of my own work, and I'm still wrapping my head around cuz it's so complex. But we are the result of our trauma, of our parents' trauma, of their parents' trauma, like just generations of trauma and societal pressure makes us who we are now.
And those moments, like you just said, um, Us being able to recognize and interrupt those generational and societal things of, you know, Hey, just keep going. Just push for it. Make us stopping and interrupting. That is part of the change. But, you know, if there are a hundred, I won't even say men, if there are a hundred people out there trying to initiate some sort of a physical contact of some kind, 98 of them aren't stopping and interrupting.
That might not be fair, you know, but a, a good chunk of them aren't stopping and interrupting that thought process. That's just what they think. It's how they think it's supposed to work.
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: So many people have been hurt because of that. It's awful.
Brent: It. It is, it is, it is. And we could drone, we could drone on this all day long if we wanted to Jeff, and it'd be worthy conversation, but,
Jeff: You know what I will say about it? I love the Delen channeling her ring of honor Brian Danielson, her Nigel McGinnis and grabbing dude's finger and just dropping him to the deck. That felt good?
Brent: well it was, I mean, she told like, it always works when somebody tells you, I'm gonna say this nicely and that's the last time I'm gonna say it nicely. Bad stuff's gonna happen. And people called her on it and they got showed what's
Jeff: Yep. Okay,
Brent: Like, you go girl, you get it. Cuz she could do it. And that's a, that's a quiet confidence you can operate in when you can do that sort of stuff like, Um, Lanier shows up, goes Yoda, episode two on his butt as Lanier always does. So good to see Lanier, by the
Jeff: it really was. I was upset though that he said It only matters that you try. I'm like, no, dude. We have learned.
Brent: Right,
Jeff: There is only do, there is no try do or do not.
Brent: Um, I still think it was a mistake to do whatever they've done with Bill Mommy. Again, I don't know if it was contract issues or timing issues or what this whole thing I d i it, it was just wrong. Although there is still this weird, unspoken vibe with Lanier and, and Delin that Yeah, it's just, I, I don't like where they've gone with this character, unfortunately.
Jeff: I can see it. You know what I mean? Like I can see where it was. I, I'm with you though. I don't, I don't like it. I'm kind of withholding judgment as much as I can to see where it, what it leads to. I. Maybe there's redemption for him. You know, may, maybe there's a moment or whatever. That's great and it feels good.
Maybe things go horrible, but it's gotta lead somewhere. If this just treads water, this whole like tension between them and him being pretty juvenile in his response about it, it's gonna be really
Brent: I, I, I need Lanier to find somebody else and move on it and realize that I, I need him to go Garth Brooks with the land. You know what I mean when I say that, you know that song, he has, um, unanswered prayers.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: this was the one I wanted. I thought, but you know, and I pray every night that God would make her mind, and he didn't answer that prayer and.
And, you know, and I met her one day and, and I introduced her to my wife. And as she walked away, I looked at my wife and I thought, thank God for unanswered prayers. And I just, I need him to do that with Delin. Like, he needs to find himself somebody else and be like, you know what? You are awesome. And she's not as awesome as I thought she
Jeff: Yeah, that'd be
great.
Brent: DE's awesome.
Don't get me wrong, DE's awesome. But, but I need, I need Lanta to move on
Jeff: Big time. So he reports to, uh oh, go ahead.
Brent: oh no, go ahead. Do,
Jeff: So he reports to White Star 27 or Maria as, uh, Montoya lovingly calls her. It's a very human thing, right? For him to do that.
Brent: yes,
Jeff: Frankly, from this point forward, this was, uh, this, to me, this was all a riff on learning curve. This is,
Brent: this episode did not follow what it set us up to do to this moment. It just, it just didn't, like it turned into training Op. It was, it was fine. It was a good, uh, it was an interesting episode. Neat things. Um, white stars carry their own little white star furries, is that what we call them? White star furries?
Is
Jeff: makes sense. Yeah, sure.
Brent: that what they are? I don't know. Maari fighters. I, I, I don't know what we call them. Um, they have seven hour hours of air. They're super uncomfortable to get in and out of, you know.
Jeff: Especially with that corduroy they have to lay on, like that's gotta leave impressions on him. Like,
Brent: dude, can you imagine like, like, because they got the big bone head thing going on, like how often they hit the, they hit their, their bone head on the back of the
Jeff: gunk, gunk.
Brent: just all the time. Um,
and everything is kind of paint by numbers at that
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Brent: You've got Findel you didn't really want to be, you know who you've reminded me of. Was, uh, Sam Tarley from Game of Thrones.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: You know what I
Jeff: He wanted to be a mater the whole time, but because of stuff, he ended up having to go be a, you know, a brother of the night's watch.
Brent: yeah, yeah. It just, he had that feel. Uh, I have a question to ask you, Mr. Jeffrey, former military man, uh, at the end of this episode, uh, Findel gets sent off to the recruiter's office. He's gonna work in recruitment Now. I understand. Please, people save your keyboard strokes out there. This is not, you know, US military of the future.
This is something different. I get that. But in general, Jeff, it isn't working in the recruiter's office. Like a pretty sweet job in the mil. Like, it, like, it's actually a high honor job in the military. Like it's not just a, yeah, you couldn't cut it as a soldier. So we're gonna throw you over
Jeff: Yeah, you gotta be good at your job. And there's high expectations. Like, it's a rough, it's a, it's a good job to get, it's a hard job to hold onto, like, it's a big deal. But I felt like, I, I liked, I really appreciated what Montoya was trying to teach. I really don't think this was the way to teach it. Like, Hey, you need to do your own reflection and understand like why you're here matters.
So I'm gonna go put you in charge of the lives of countless people and how they move forward. What I, no, no. Maybe just send him to reflect on his decisions. Maybe do that.
Brent: right. Just let him be discharged if that's what he needs to do.
Jeff: There's a whole thing that it's exists in our military, in the United States, probably exists there. It's called an ESL or e l s entry level separation. There's this moment, this very short period of time where you and or the armed force that you're serving in can say, you know what? This is not a good fit, and we're just gonna separate, uh, do that with findel.
Let him go. He's worried about honor and whatever. Cool. Let him sweep floors in an analyst shock facility somewhere. We still need those people.
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: This, the, the, yeah, not the right call by Montoya.
Brent: So, Jeff, at, at the risk of, um, not doing our jobs and not analyzing a situation because it just sort of seems inane, you know, we still look at the inane and analyze it. Uh, he goes out Findel panics. Lanier stays. Cool. Uh, in the next one, Findel. Effectively goes to commit suicide. Again, this could be another, an another trigger warning type situation here.
Like, like, and Lanier shuts down, comms tries to open up a thing and he goes to do it. He has to save his friend, and then he gets blasted for it and then patted on the back for it.
Jeff: Yep.
Brent: I, I don't have much to make out of all of that. I really don't like it
Jeff: response to linear was totally appropriate, right? Because you, and you're in front of, you know, everyone, he, what he did by the book was the wrong thing, but what he actually did was uphold what the Rangers are all about, you know? And so I think, I think the way he handled that was actually really, really good to me.
That's it. Like you said it. I think that the part I wanted to touch on was the moment of bait and switch in this the, we were told Lanier was gonna go pretend to be in training ops so that he could go pick up on information around the shipping lane attacks. They send the fighters out to sit and immediately they're like, oh crud, our air is messed up.
Our ship has TA taken off. What are we gonna do? My first thought, my initial thought here was, oh, so part of the Minion's like thing is they can like have a tele telepath mind disruption thing where they make them believe and see things that aren't real. And so I, in my head, I was like, they have seven hours of air.
The mothership's still there, everything's fine. But they're making them think they're not. So they panic and then they can pick 'em off. But
Brent: that Jeff. I'm Jeff. I'm sorry. That 1000% sounds like an episode of Next Generation. That's what that sounds
Jeff: it really does, doesn't it?
Brent: sounds like an episode of Next Generation, what you just described there. Mr. Star Trek Boy.
Jeff: And it would've been a great, that would've been awesome, like if they had this whole, and then they actually need the telepaths to come in and help disrupt that stuff so they can, like, that would've led to a really cool story. It was about the time Fidel started freaking out about stuff where I'm like, it's, oh, oh, this is a test.
Uh, we're gonna do this episode instead. Like it was, to me it was total bait and switch in that moment and. Linear, and again, this was a pickup and replace of the learning curve thing of you've got one analyst shock in training who's doing the stuff and believing the things and do, and another one who's questioning and not really doing it.
We've gotten, we've already gotten this story,
Brent: You know, there was an episode back in season three that basically tried to do what a earlier episode from season three tried to
Jeff: Uhhuh,
Brent: except the earlier episode. Did it better? And
Jeff: dancing and walkabout, right?
Brent: do what
Jeff: Shadow dancing and walkabout.
Brent: Oh, that wasn't anything about that one. But you're a thousand percent, right? There's that one too.
No, I was thinking late delivery from Avalon and passing through sme.
Jeff: Yes. I try to forget at least one of
Brent: Sorry, sorry to bring that source subject back up folks. Don't at me. Okay. That was two seasons ago. Let it go. Um, but you now have me on that train of this was trying to do the exact same thing that that one was trying to do. Only that one did it better.
And you're right, it did. Uh, I can I, can I say this? Uh, out of all of that, um, I really appreciated that the captain wrote Maria actually painted it on the side of the ship.
Jeff: that was cool. Yeah.
Brent: Okay. So I guess we have have overly exhausted and spent way too much time talking about nothing.
Jeff: Yeah. Let's talk about some good stuff.
Brent: Let's talk about the good stuff.
Let's talk about Veer and Londo. Uh, before we do that, let me just say this to get it outta the way. Where's Lockley Ben?
Jeff: Oh yes.
Brent: I mean c n c I
Jeff: Yeah. Busy work, running the station. That doesn't matter anymore apparently. So
Brent: She has her own action figure in the series. Where is
Jeff: opening credits,
Brent: Do you know what? You know what I'd love to find as a Keffer action figure, just because,
Jeff: I think we talked about this, the kef reaction figure that is just like his skull. That was his, that was his best moment.
Brent: Londo. Okay. Here, listen. Mc, Barre's, McDonald's, throwing that in.
Jeff: Brilliant.
Yeah.
Brent: Getting bugged. Here's really where I think we just to, to drill down on veer. Let's talk about his character arc at this point. Cuz this, this was, I don't wanna say a capstone, but, or this wasn't even a turning moment.
This was a culmination of what we've been seeing out of Vere from the first season when we first met Veer being timid and shy, coming in through the second season. Places where he stood up to Londo and said, Londo, you are wrong. Then places where he stood up to Morton and said, I want to see your head on a pike so I can wave at you.
Right. To other episodes where Vere tried to step out and then got slapped back down by Londo and, and Vere took it after stepping out. And I, I remember, I, I think it was season three somewhere, Jeff, maybe end of season two, where it was like you were miffed that that veer took the slapdown. But I was saying, no, no, no.
This is a step along the way
Jeff: That was Sikh transit. Ve
Brent: there. It's, yeah. Yeah.
Jeff: Ivo set him up really bad. And that I, I still, I, I'm infuriated at how that all went down.
Brent: But that step gets us to where we are now to, to where veer has come to a spot where somebody's going to pull one over on him and bug his groceries and, and make him the guy who delivers that bug to his boss, Londo. He's gonna go take care of it. And boy howdy. Did Veer go take care of it in a very sari way,
Jeff: Yes, yes. Which I think, like, I thought it was great. He went right for the Qatari, he didn't have a conversation, he didn't say anything. He just grabbed it and went. One of the things we've talked about a lot is the conflict in Lando between who he wants to be and where he was heading to. That anchor of being centara and doing that.
Veer has avoided that for everything. Even in Sikh transit, vere where he was faced with sm right, of an arranged marriage in this stuff, he's still balked and you know, no, like, I, I want this to matter. I want it to be for love. Is this the moment that Veer gets pulled into that now, now he, this conflict is introduced for him.
Brent: No, I think, no, I think this is Vere still being as, as solid as Vere has always been. I think that's, that's where we're gonna see him be. But I think it's also veer fully standing up for himself. And, and do you, do you remember back in War Without End, after Jaar and Londo choke each other out, veer steps out from behind the quarter, from from behind the, the curtain.
And he looks down and he bends down and he picks up the, I'm guessing that's like the emperor's crest or whatever, the necklace or thing or whatever it was. And he's, he's looking down his nose at Londo. And I remember thinking then, and I, I still think it now, like that's a different veer. Something has happened with Veer where he's stronger and he's, he's more in control.
He knows who he is. And it almost seemed evil. It almost seems sinister.
Jeff: A little bit.
Brent: This is that veer, this veer has become that guy. I don't know that it is sinister. I don't know that it's evil. I think it's a veer who is strong and confident in who he is as a person. And, uh, uh, you know, he, he is, he is smart. And he's, he's gonna take, he's not gonna take no of nobody.
Like, sorry, you gotta buzz that. I'm sorry. You know, what's that? This is, this is a spot where Veer is. He's a, I see pride, I see power. I see a badass mother who don't take no crap off, nobody. That's the ve that we have now. That is just, he is strong. You know what I mean? Jeff, when you edit this later, take that other
Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Brent: that one in.
Jeff: yeah. That's, that's good.
Brent: I was, I was, I was, I was trying to pull that reference.
I was like, shoot, what's his,
Jeff: here. It's right here. Yeah. This is that moment right where you put, you put coal under pressure and it either demolishes or turns into a diamond. We're watching, we've been watching Veer under pressure for quite a long time, and now we're starting to see the Diamond emerge. I loved how Proud Londo was.
Like, he looks over to Zach and he is just like, now he's the ambassador.
Brent: Right.
Jeff: That was cool.
Brent: Yeah. I I loved that, that it settled in the same episode Londo set up for, he's not ready yet, but he will be before I leave to, okay, now he's ready. I love that that happened in the same episode.
Jeff: It's like the first time in a long time, they acknowledge they have eight episodes left and need to move forward with the story.
Brent: You know, here's the thing. I would be okay with this, given, given the breadth of the story of Babylon five, of covering five seasons and all that stuff, I would be okay if they spent these last eight episodes letting people go one by one,
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: wrapping their, like with Dr. Franklin. Remember him a couple weeks ago, like, he's gonna go off to, if he left now, that'd be okay.
If last week, let's just say last week was ER's last episode, and this week was Linear's last episode. If they would've wrapped those two stories, if, if Lita would've wrapped, I mean, Lita could have gone away at the end of the whole Byron thing and her like, let the people go and, and put those bows on it.
But the show doesn't feel like it's doing that. Like it if you know, That's why I keep saying like, I keep expecting something, but it's not, the show has taught me to expect something
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: it just, I don't know where we're going with it. So, uh oh. Can we, can we just speak about Jeff, what needs to be the absolute latest T-shirt that we are going to make here at Babylon five for the very first time?
And if we ever actually get off our duffs and really make a t-shirt, maybe this should actually be the first one I need. I need a silhouette of veer holding the, the sword and the words just need to say spoof for brains.
Jeff: for brains. Yes. He just had so much vitriol. This to me, spoof our brains like it's great. Well, I think then Brent, this takes us to this part of the episode. The point of the episode. Everyone looks forward to where we're gonna boil all of this down. We're gonna see if this episode had any hidden messages, any apparent or blatant messages had some deep meanings, maybe held up a mirror to society, maybe possibly gave us hope that we can one day be better than we are now.
You get the honor of doing that by rating this episode on a scale of zero to five white stars as to how strong that message is and just how Babylon five delivered it in its own unique way. So, Brent, it's on you. What are your thoughts on this one?
Brent: Jeff, I may have said this on this show before. One of the songs my daughter loves from the first frozen movie is the little troll song
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: where they're, they're uh, they're out there. There's a line in that song though that I abhor absolutely abhor because it flies in the face of everything that I believe and, and my experience of life.
And I've ta, I know I've talked about this before. The line says you can't really change 'em because people don't really change. I reject that idea in premise. Summarily, people do change. They can change for the better. They can change for the worst. We talk about the idea of giving us hope for a better future.
You're talking about the hope for change in this episode today we saw Vere, we just, we've just discussed that at length. I won't retread all of that, but that gives everybody hope that if Vere can go through that. So can you, when we look at where Jaar has been, here he is holding church. This isn't like last time when he just sort of reluctantly went into that first service.
Like this is him in the middle of that and Franklin's watching him and observing and like, wow, this is legit. Now change for the better can happen.
Was that the point of this episode? No, but I think that that is something that we can draw out of this episode.
What I do think when we come down to a point of this episode, something that is just overly glaring and something that I absolutely loved actually has to do with Lanier. Can we just say, Lanier is awesome, like as childish as he is about stuff, he is a good dude. Lanier is a guy to emulate. Lanier is a guy to want to be like.
The idea of doing the right thing at the right time, no matter the cost to you is a, is a message that we talk about in Star Trek all the time. It is a message that we try to teach our children. It is a message that we should be trying to teach people everywhere. This is not unique to Star Trek, okay?
Like, this is a mess. This is the message. Do the right thing at the right time. When Lanier went to save Findel, it was the right thing to do. Even if it was going to cost him personally. Now, did Linear know in the moment it was gonna cost him personally? Possibly because that's why he shut off the communications and tried to make everything private or is that why he did that?
The cool thing about linear going to the private channel and doing so was not just trying to save his friend was not just trying to save himself. And I don't even know that that really crossed his mind. The reason he went was because he was caring for Findel. This guy he just met, he, he loved and respected findel enough as a person, as a human.
I feel like we keep coming back to this idea here on Babylon five a lot and that's okay cuz it's a good one. We gotta keep coming back to you all the time. Findel was having a moment of crisis. He was having a a, a, a big issue. And Lanier in the moment of trying to rescue Findel still had the wherewithal to try to.
Protect Fidel's dignity and his privacy just through the simple act of switching the, the communications over to private. Now, we later learned that didn't work. That's beside the point.
Doing the right thing at the right time, never losing sight of person in front of you. Jeff, I, this is a new idea. I don't think we've discussed before here on Babylon five for the first time. So often people get involved in doing what's right, that they will do it at the expense of the person in front of them.
And that's not right. That's not good. Yes, we want to do what's right, not when it costs somebody else, something, not when it not even costs them, when it ignores them. When it ignores what they're going through. Lanier recognized that his friend was going through something. And he went to help and not just to save a life, but to save his dignity.
Earlier he recognized Delin was going through something and he jumped in to help. Right. I love this. Lanier shows great con, great command. Lanier shows great concern, not just for a comrade, but for a person. Pheno. Phenomenal message. Is this the core of the intended message of the entire episode? No, I don't think so, but I do think there's something there.
I think that that is a point JMS was trying to write when he was trying to get across the whole thing that Jaar was teaching and preaching. I think that might have been a, a personal philosophy of j m s. I don't think it's holding up a mirror to society. I don't think it's giving us hope for a better future or anything like that, so I'm not gonna be gonna consider that, but I will consider the idea of a hope for change.
And respecting people like these are things we need to come in. Jeff, I'm gonna give this one, two star fury. I'm gonna give this one. Two white Furies. Nope. I'm gonna give this one. Two white stars,
Jeff: two, I think, let me stumble just a little bit. For what it's worth,
Brent: Okay.
Jeff: I think it was the entire point of the linear storyline, otherwise it was literally just showing them going through training ops. Like either it was to show them going through training ops or it was to show that Lanier deeply cares about the people around them to the point of self-sacrifice.
What he said in that moment with Montoya at the end where he is like, Hey, I had these problems, these things went wrong, and Fidel totally came to help me out and stuff. Stuff got a little bit out of hand. He had to have fully known in that moment that he was, I mean he, he lost the passing mark, you know, or whatever on the whole thing I, which isn't, you know, life or death, but I think that linear knew.
His choices would cost him personally. He didn't even hesitate. Like there wasn't even a moment of like, should I do this? It was the right thing to do, period. And uh, so I, I think, I think that literally that moment was the full intent of this.
Brent: I would agree with you on that fully. There's not even, I would, I do agree with you on that fully. I think a big piece of this episode I have to imagine a big reason for this episode is to remind us of Lanier. And who Lanier is for whatever's getting ready to come. Because my gosh, Jeff, if I, I, I'm not even, I'm not, I'm not right, because this is not a prediction.
I'm just saying I'd be mad if it turned out to be, if this is Lanier's last stand, if this is the last we see of Lanier, I don't think it is, uh, because this feels like it is setting us up for who Lanier is become.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: Lanier is a good person. Lanier is good at his job. Lanier still being in training kind of seems wrong. Like he feels like he should be fully out of it by now. Like the way he handled himself in this particular episode, you know? And I, I feel like that was more of the reason for it. It just happened in this way. Um, but I, I, I hear what you're saying. I really do. I'm tempted, but I think I'm still gonna leave it at two white stars.
Jeff: That's fair. You know, I just had a thought you just said reminds me of, I think it was Star Wars episode two when, uh, might have been three. I forget which
Brent: When Yoda bounced around and had a really cool fight,
Jeff: That was really cool. I always think of that all the time. Such a cool thing. But I remember, uh, you know, Anakin, uh, wanting to be on the council and like, we grant you the rank of master, but we do not, you know, invite you to be on the council or whatever it was like.
And that didn't turn out well. Um, you know, for, for the Galaxy, it's almost having Lanier having to go through this training stuff. It's like we grant you that you're this whole thing, but we do not quite give you the title of Analyst Shock yet. Is it gonna not turn out well for the Galaxy? Are we gonna get, we got Darth Londo.
Are we gonna get Darth Lanier as well?
Brent: we, we were told that he's gonna betray the endless shock man. Oh, Jeff. Oh
Jeff: would suck.
Brent: dude, Jeff, there are still so many dangling lines here. Eight episodes and we're spending it on a training op and, and on whatever. Last week was like,
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: I don't see the picture. I want to see this picture. I really do. I just don't see the picture yet.
Jeff.
Jeff: We're either in for a wild, wild ride or a lot of treading of water.
Brent: Well, speaking of treading of water, Jeff, we have one more thing. Well, two more things actually, I guess we have to get through, but one, it was up to me and you did not sway me. Ha ha. I am a heart of stone, but you now get to do something that I have absolutely no control over. You get to rank this one, you get to place this one in our 100% completely accurate, immutable, definitive ranking of season five of Babylon five. Jeff. Our top five currently sits at the very long night of Lado Malari, no compromises learning curve, the one we just referenced here, the ragged edge, and a view from the gallery. Jeff, where do you put meditations on the abyss?
Jeff: What makes this hard is I have a zone that I see this in, and I kind of can't believe that the zone is as high as it is because. I, I, I'm conflicted, right? We talked about this. This is not a bad episode by any means, but it's not a great end of fifth season episode, you know? And so where I'm landing is right around like number seven or number eight at this point.
And so it's, this is an episode in my mind in the vein of
the Cora.
Brent: for Jeff. I'm sorry, just for the folks listening at home who can't see the, the list I have here, uh, currently number seven is in, no, I'm sorry, that was season four. Let's go back Season five. Currently number seven is the Cora's mother of the Cora's father, and number eight is tragedy of Telepaths.
Jeff: mm-hmm. And that's a real, that's a, that's a powerful dividing line for us that,
Brent: Yes, it is.
Jeff: ah, and I, I think about this one in terms of Cora's mother, Cora's father, because I think that where it's ultimately gonna land really depends on what's to come. This might have planted some powerful seeds with Lanier that are gonna pay off in a big way.
And we're gonna look back and be like, holy Cru, I loved how they set this up. Or it's Lanier's last episode and it's just gonna be infuriating. I don't know. So when I look at it on the Cora's mother, the Cora's father, I get conflicted because I enjoyed that episode more than I enjoyed this episode.
Brent: Yep.
Jeff: the veer veer flying around with a Qatari, that scene alone so good.
In fact, this is what I'm gonna say. You and I have been veer fans from go in this whole thing. This is a pivotal, this is not quite, um, not quite veer waving at Morden's actual head on a Pike Peak, but it's right there close to it for him. I'm gonna say this is our new number seven episode.
Brent: I think I personally might have actually ranked it a little higher than that.
Jeff: Really
Brent: Yes. Um, but I 1000% understand your reasoning and I can't do anything about it. So,
Jeff: well, Brent. That's it for Meditations on the Abyss. Next week we're gonna be watching Darkness Ascending for the first time. Brent said back in the time to pay the Piper part of this game. We love to play. We don't look ahead at all. We don't read descriptions, we avoid thumbnails, all that good stuff. We enjoy and have fun guessing what the next episode is gonna be based on the title alone.
Brent, you get to go first on this one. What do you think Darkness Ascending is gonna be about?
Brent: Well, that title alone is the, uh, this, like Jeff, we're here. We, we, we've been anticipating this run of episodes here at the end of the season, just like we had in season four. That feels like we're here. Like that's what that is. So I've gotta go back to this. Is either the minions or the Telepaths moving into a position of power in the universe?
Like, things have to get bad before they can get better. You know what I mean? Like, we only have eight episodes left, so bad things have to happen now. I'm not sure who it's gonna be. I could see it being one or the other. I could see it being both honestly. Like Lita and, and the Telepaths and Ster maybe Bester and, and li, oh, that's it.
Best and Lita like join forces and, and you know, cuz they're searching for a new home world or, or maybe they're just gonna take over Earth. Just gonna take over earth. Right? Um, uh, telepaths of the universe Unite or something like that. Also the minions, you know, we do know Lao's supposed to go back to Sari Prime's supposed to do it sometime early in the next year.
It feels like we're past early, right. Um, but I think, yeah, I think it's all the bad stuff that, that you hope doesn't happen. That's what happens so that we can have the final fight and the good guys win at the end. That's what I think. What do you think Jeff?
Jeff: I think this is where Lanier betrays the animal shock.
Brent: Oh.
Jeff: Hank, he's gonna
be out. He's gonna be out with, uh, on Maria, out with Montoya. I think we're gonna see Montoya again and he's gonna find
Brent: Is, is he, is he gonna kill the captain's father?
Jeff: No, I don't think so.
Brent: Okay.
Jeff: I think you killed my father. Prepare to die. No, I think what
Brent: I get two of those references in one episode, that's
Jeff: that is, anytime you can get a Princess Bride in, right? That's a huge win. And I think, I think he's gonna discover something while they're out there doing this stuff that ties this to the Sari. See a ship, some debris, some something.
But he's gonna get dumb about the whole thing. And he's gonna go in, he's gonna try and rub it into Sheridan's face. He's gonna get loud, he's gonna abuse his position. The Sy the other Alliance Worlds are gonna overhear this and all Hell is literally gonna break loose like this. This is gonna start like an inter alliance thing that's gonna launch what we know to be called the Drop war.
And I think that my, I'm gonna say that again cuz that sounded bad when I, it's gonna launch what we know as the DRock war and it's just gonna get crazy. And I think from the point after this forward, we're gonna be having the telepath stuff and this dark minion DRock stuff going on to drive us to a maddening crescendo to close out season five.
And we'll find out here next week. Thank you everyone so much for joining us. Please leave us a rating and a review wherever you watch or listen to this podcast. Share the podcast, hit that little share button. Share it with somebody who's either already in love with Babylon five, or is about to fall in love with this incredible series.
So until next time. Yeah. What's up?
Brent: You know it sounds really good right now.
Jeff: I would think, I'll tell you what, sounds good to me.
Brent: What's that?
Jeff: A big Mc bar. Maybe a mc Bar Royale with cheese.
Brent: Boo? McNuggets mc bar? Flurry. Oh, oh, the uh uh, mc bar. Rib sandwich.
Jeff: oh,
Brent: Oh, hold the onions. I don't want the onions
Jeff: the mc Bar. Shamrock Shake. Oh, dude, let's shut this thing down. Let's, let's head to the Golden Head bones right now.
Brent: Golden head. Oh God. Let's get the hell outta here. Let's go.
