Meet Your Doom! An Interview with Sanford Greene about Dr. Doom, Jonathan Hickman, and Bitter Root - The Short Box Podcast Ep. 427
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Intro music plays
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Yo, Short Box Nation, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for being here. If you're new, welcome to the show. My name is Badr and this is the Short Box Podcast, the comic book talk show that brings you the best conversations about comic books with the people that put their blood, sweat and tears into making them. This is episode 426. Today I've got one of my favorite artists working in comics on the show today. His name is Sanford Greene and he's been dominating the industry for a while now.
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He's the Eisner and Ring award-winning co-creator and artist for the multi-award-winning Bitter Root Comics series from Image Comics, which is also being adapted into a major motion picture by producer Ryan Coogler and director Regina King. Sanford Green is also known for his work on titles like Black Panther and Power Man and Iron Fist from Marvel Comics. And whether you knew it or not, his fingerprints and artwork are all over Spider-Man Across the Spider-Verse because he was one of the lead concept artists for that movie. Sanford is on the show today to talk about his new Marvel comic that's out this week.
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Doom number one. It's a Doctor Doom-centric comic that's being billed as the final fate of Doctor Doom. The one-shot takes place in the near future where Doom and Valeria Richards must stand against Galactus as he comes to devour Earth. Sanford Green is co-writing the oversized one-shot alongside Jonathan Hickman, who is no stranger to Doom or Galactus. I think we give Jonathan Hickman his flowers every chance we get on the show, so you know I'm excited for that. Sanford is also doing all the interior art, including the cover.
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and colors alongside colorist Rochelle Rosenberg. I've had the opportunity to read the issue early and I'm going to give a trigger warning before I say this, so prepare yourselves. I read the issue early and if it's not the best Marvel comic you read all year, I guarantee it'll be a top five comic by the end of the year. I foresee this making it on a lot of year end lists. So don't say I didn't try and tell you, but you don't have to take my word for it. I'll have links to some preview pages you can check out alongside this interview in the show notes.
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Or you know what? You can actually go out and buy and read it for yourself right now because Doom number one is available in shops at the time of this recording. And that's exactly why Sanford Green is here today to talk about Doom and what else he's got going on in his world. Short Box Nation, without further ado, let's welcome Sanford Green to the show. What up Sanford, how you doing? Oh man. Wow. I'll tell you what. Do you want to go on a road with me or he can be my PR?
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You're MC? That'd be a huge honor. I could definitely do that for you. That'd be dope. Dude, that's awesome. Thank you so much. And it's well deserved, man. You have been crushing it lately. Seriously, congrats on all the success. Oh, thanks. Thanks. Speaking about being on the road, I was today years old learning that the reason why I've seen you at every HeroesCon that I've been to, so about, I think I've been to like three, four, five now, is because you're one state away.
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from North Carolina and in Charlotte, where Heroes Con takes place. You're in South Carolina, right? South Carolina, but not even just one state away, man. I'm like maybe an hour, give or take. I'm right there on the border of North Carolina. So it's not too far at all. It's in the backyard, if you will. Yeah. I can't help but notice, and this is for, if you're watching the YouTube, you're seeing the same thing I'm seeing. And I can't help but notice your background.
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It looks like we're in your office here, but I see you've got a spinner rack. I mean, you got some awesome issues on there. I see the Rick Remender, uncanny Rick Remender, uncanny X-Force issue, a GI Joe issue. But my eyeballs immediately went to this class. What is that uncanny X-Men number? Hard to tell which I know is a Jim Lee cover. Yeah, that one right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's 275. 275. Yeah, it's a pretty popular issue. Well, I got to ask then, are you caught up on X-Men 97?
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Uh, no. Oh, Sanford, you're breaking my heart. Don't spoil it for me. Uh, I did get to, I did get to, uh, episode five, which is the one. That's the one. That is the one. That is the one that changed. Yeah. That's the red wedding of, uh, that's a good example. That's a good example of what that episode represents. Uh, yeah. Yeah. That was, yeah. Uh, when, when, when I saw
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You know, you try to avoid all the spoilers online. Which is not easy of this show, right? It's not easy. I was pretty successful at that. But I will say, I kind of knew it would be that character because I saw a few tributes to the character. But I did not know of how it would all transpire. And that part was pretty powerful stuff.
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Yeah. And I appreciate you practicing spoiler free as much as I want to just like go off and start going on how good it was. Yeah. But overall, it sounds like are you enjoying it? Like, is it bringing back any memories of X and comics you picked up and things like that? Yeah, absolutely enjoying it, man. Actually, shout outs to Chase Conley, who's one of the directors. I've known that cat since he was up and coming.
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He's now arrived, I would say safely. He's a pretty incredible illustrator, artist in his own right. And to see that he's able to now, for the most part, spearhead the look and the direction that this animation is going is pretty awesome. Also, there's a few other folks that I know.
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that have worked on the series. So it's kind of cool to kind of have a backseat, or not necessarily a backseat, but kind of a behind the scenes look to know what they've worked on and how it all transpired as pretty special stuff. Do you recall your earliest memory?
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or your earliest art memory. Do you have something that sticks out to you? Like, do you remember the first drawing or illustration you did that you were like, oh, this is not half bad. I think I'm going to go ahead and pursue this as a, you know, as a job. Wow. I can share this story of when I was. It wasn't my first art memory, but it was definitely one that stood out to me in terms of the significance of it.
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And that is when I think it was third grade, fourth grade, somewhere around that time, I participated in this art contest for having a safe Halloween. This is during the time where there was big campaigns on just not taking candy from strangers. I think that that's honestly where the model came from was during that time period, just watching out, whatever the...
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The theme was overall, it was about safe safety. Most kids did just a single illustration, but again, this is the third grade. I think I was already inundated with comic books and I try to draw my own comic. I did a short comic and submitted this comic to for the contest and the judges didn't believe I did it. Oh wow. They thought.
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They thought it might have been someone older and because they just didn't think some would would try to this young would try to put together something that quote unquote advanced. They had become to, I guess, the place where they did the judging for the contest and they had me draw. They had me draw characters that I create. They had me draw the characters I created just to see and honest.
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That honestly happened because my art teacher at the time, Deborah Burl, she was my elementary teacher, but she also was an artist and she saw that I had that interest in. So she called my mom. She was very upset because she was like, I can't believe these people aren't believing that you did it, but if you can, can you come, you have the time, come down to, I guess, the local.
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a town hall, can you do a demonstration for them? And so I did a demonstration for these folks. And yeah, that was a moment where I thought I was like, okay, I might have something a little. Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah. Like growing up and being just a complete nightmare in school, one of my biggest fears was having my mom being called to the school.
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Because I knew that it would just mean automatic. I'm getting an asshole when I get home. If my mom has to come to the school, it's a wrap. I'm done. But I can only imagine the confusion and maybe anger she'd have if she had to be called to the town hall first. Right? I mean, look, dude, she, I mean, the way that my teacher was explaining it to her, so I mean, she was calm, but she was also like, can you believe this? I can't believe. And so, but you know, shout outs to my mom for
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having enough awareness to realize that this could be something important. She could, like you said, I don't have time to do that. I got, luckily it was after hours, it was after work, it was like six in the evening. But still, you're home or you just got off work and you got dinner to make, whatever. But for some reason, she had the, I guess the weather though, to take me down there.
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I don't think I've ever shared that story before. So it's pretty wild. I appreciate the exclusive then. Yeah, you got an exclusive. And you know what? Shout outs to mom. We're recording this on Wednesday, May 9. Sunday will be Mother's Day. So big shout outs to your mom and all the moms out there. Growing up, was art in your household? Was there anyone else in your family or maybe in your friend circle that were artistically talented? Or could you point to maybe you mentioned you were already inundated with comic books.
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artists that you were maybe really inspired by young and maybe like you were trying to mimic or maybe their style found a way into yours early on? Um, yes to all of that. Um, I was influenced by a lot of, you know, what I saw Saturday morning cartoons obviously were, was a big impact. Um, I had a family member who was a fashion designer in New York. I met him once. Um,
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He wasn't very friendly. I just remember that. I guess he's a fashion designer and obviously he was older. So I just didn't have any connection outside of that from family in terms of that aspect of it. In terms of influences, absolutely. Just what I saw on television, again, Saturday morning cartoons was a huge influence.
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I connected the dots to what I saw on television and how I discovered comics. The comics were at that time you could get them, you could have still gotten them at drugstores. The comic shops had just started but they weren't anywhere near where I lived. But I saw those comics and I connected the dots to how those comics and those characters were the same.
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characters that you saw that I saw on television that blew my mind because I didn't think that I thought the cartoons were kind of this this thing on its own and there wasn't anything connected to it maybe toys but the comic side was just completely brand new. Really quick what were some of those what were some of those cartoons you were watching or what were some of the comic books in your life at that time?
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The cartoons, the mainstays, the Spider-Man, Amazing Friends, the Super Friends were kind of, they were on the way out. Anime started to creep in just a little. You had those cartoons that were influenced by anime like the Thundercats and of course Transformers.
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And yeah, you know, I started to look for the comics that had a lot of that kind of aesthetic, lots of characters, lots of action. So that obviously X-Men is probably the greatest through line to that type of aesthetic. They resemble the most to the anime aesthetic, if you will, very grounded, but high level action.
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So those are the ones that I gravitated towards. Now, as far as artists at the time that you were seeing in these comics, you're bringing up X-Men. So I'm assuming it was probably around the John Byrne, Chris Claremont era? Yep. OK. Was there any other artists that you were really impressed by or really influenced by early on?
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From the comic side, definitely. Shortly after discovering the John Burns and the artists of that nature, Michael Golden became someone that I gravitated towards. And shortly, actually it's kind of reversed. I started to get into Tom McFarlane and Jim Lee and those guys. And they...
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referred to their influences a lot towards Art Adams and Michael Golden. So I went back and researched those guys and I ate it up. I mean, look, Rob Liefeld was huge coming up as well because I saw the Art Adams influence in what he was doing. So yeah, huge impact around that time.
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I'm going to fast forward a little just because I want to make sure we have time to talk about Doom. But do you recall what was your first comic book project? Maybe your first professional one or the one that you felt most proud of or the one that kind of got you in? The earliest that I could find was on, or at least on the Marvel site that it credits, is you did interior artwork for a Star Wars Tales comic, number 13.
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It was released in 2002, it features Mace Windu on the cover, and it credits you as the interior artist. Is that the earliest comic work you've done, or is there anything earlier than that? There's things earlier than that, but I don't wanna mention that stuff, man. You might go find it, you might go find it and put it out there. It'll still be leaves and bounds better than what I could possibly ever do, but. Oh, well.
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I guess when you hear Star Wars, that particular issue, like do any memories come from that particular issue Star Wars Tales number 13? Just the fact that Star Wars was making its return to the big screen. So that was huge. And of course, Mace Windu being a Jedi and he's black. All of those things were huge. As a matter of fact, I...
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thought about a cool idea for a new story that I would like to tell. I'm not as well versed in the Star Wars mythos, you know, if you will, but yeah, that time was pretty, pretty huge. I knew that those touchstones were very important around that time and to be able to tell a story. I can't look at the art, but it was pretty awesome.
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It's pretty awesome to know that I had a, and that was honestly, there wasn't much before that. Really maybe one or two things, but there were things that were pinups. I did some work with, actually I did some work with Transformers. Oh wow. When Dreamwave, I think Dream, Yeah. Dreamwave, hell yeah. Yeah, I remember those guys. Yeah, I remember that was a studio that kind of,
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got a lot of the folks that are kind of mainstays right now in the industry, that was some of their first work. I remember, I think Mark Brooks had his first work in the air. Man, there's so many, I guess, indie publishers from that early 2000s that are no longer here, but those covers still, I can close my eyes now and vividly recall going through
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short boxes of Transformer comics, Thundercats comics, you know, like all of these kind of, you know, all these eighties cartoon IP comics that, that are interestingly enough, like seeing a whole new Renaissance like today, right? Like, you know, Thundercats is a new comic series now. Transformers and Daniel Warren Johnson is killing it. So it's interesting to see like how those IPs have bounced around and where they're at now. And you know, like that nostalgia factor bringing everyone back to it. Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's...
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It seems to happen in like 20 year cycles, I guess. Good way. Yeah, good point. It's pretty cool. Now, you mentioned having a story to tell in the Star Wars space. And if I'm not mistaken, and correct if I'm wrong, that's kind of where Doom number one comes from, right? This was a story that you had in mind that you wanted to tell. And I understand that you reached out to Jonathan Hickman about hopping on there being a co-writer.
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And we get the project here. I want to hear, I guess, if you want to fill in any of the cracks in terms of how this story came to you. But while you're thinking of that, if you don't mind, I want to read the solicitation, just a level set for anyone that maybe hasn't seen the solicitation or doesn't know about it here. But this official solicitation for Doom number one reads, in the near future, Doom alone must save the Marvel universe. Legendary creators Jonathan Hickman and Sanford Green send Dr. Doom on a journey unlike any has undertaken before.
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Valeri riches that aside doom goes on a quest to harness more power than any human has ever wielded before in order to try to stop Galactus from bringing about the death of the universe Do you want to fill in anything? Do you want to add anything else to that solicitation? I guess I guess from your from your perspective. How did the story come about? How long have you been sitting on this story for what was the catalyst to finally get it out into the world? One of the things that I realized as a kid
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I was fascinated with the comics that had lots of characters in them. I was, of course, X-Men, Avengers, and to some degree, the Fantastic Four. And then there was this book called Secret Wars that really opened the door for me in terms of seeing all these heroes come together. And you could argue that that was kind of the first...
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crossover to some degree, to where you had every character from every part of the Marvel Universe coming together and Doom was at the center of this thing. And so reading that as a kid, again kind of reverse engineering, I go back and I try to find other comics that had this character, Dr. Doom, and it was like, you know, shooting, you know,
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fish in a barrel. It was like it was just he was everywhere and I'm like wow how come you know again I was still young but in my head I'm like I know all the heroes but this this guy seems to be just as important as the heroes and this is in my mind as a nine ten-year-old right and ever since then I just had this fascination with with the character with doom because he has touched every
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corner of the Marvel universe. Even with the X-Men, you think about their greatest adversaries, Doom was right there at the early stages of their encounters with him. So he's not just a fantastic war villain or what have you, but he is like the Marvel's quintessential adversary, not to mention the fact that he's a leader, a monarch, if you will, and how that affects
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the Marvel Universe. He's on the same level in terms of regalness as a Black Panther with Wakanda. If you really think how he's revered in his own Le Veria. So it's like there's so many different pieces, not to mention, you know, I say this jokingly, but it really is a powerful thing with all of this, this reverence that you can have for this character through his, his.
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regalness, his hubris, his hubris. He loves his mama, you know, like there's this side of him that you just get a hint of when you see his connections to his mother, something that 99% of us can relate to. We can't relate to being a monarch, but we can relate to looking out for moms. You know, so that part even made me just think, well, what is it about that that changes him?
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turns him into, for lack of better words, to his mother's son versus wanting to be the dictator of the entire universe. If he could make that happen, that's what he would do. So again, all these questions, all these things that I'm gathering over the years, and one day I just thought to myself, man, this should be a story about Doom.
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in all of this stuff, like this kind of bringing it all together. Obviously, you know, there's a million stories about to. But what about this? The these things and making it kind of come all together. It can be the type of thing that could. Bring the entire universe to its knees on some level, or it could possibly save the universe. Then I discuss.
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not discovered, but then I started thinking, well, what if it all happens all together where it causes destruction, but it's the very thing that could save the universe. This character Doom, he's probably one, if not the only character that has that dichotomy, if you will, because he's not completely evil. He has those tendencies, but then those tendencies are
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curved and bent into some kind of honorable method, if you will, that he goes about his business so you as a reader, you kind of co-sign to some of that, you know, like, okay, I can understand where you have to lay, you know, all right, that's a little too excessive over here but over here, okay, so there again, this is beautiful mixture of that twists this character in ways that very few characters have.
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I think you described Doctor Doom excellent. Yeah, that was perfectly said. He is such a nuanced character. And I think it's safe to say he is easily a top, I don't know, I think it's safe to say Doctor Doom is a top three supervillain. And if we're talking just Marvel, I'm talking like across comic books. And I think if we're talking just Marvel comics, it'd be very hard to press to find anyone that's taken the number one spot from him. So it's cool to hear that you've had that this story.
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has been kind of lingering in your mind for this many years. And it's based on all these questions that you've had, just kind of compounded and compiled throughout the years and as a fan. And I guess I'm going to toss you a very, I don't know, a layup question here. But I feel like I know the answer. But what was the inspiration to reach out to Jonathan Hickman to get him to help and co-write the story as well? Oh, I just wanted to give him a shot. I mean, he's trying. I thought you were going to say, if you would have replied
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But did you read Secret Wars from 2015? Do I need to say less? If you would've just said that, it would've been good. Yeah, well, that's the answer that you were expecting, right? Of course, that's part of why I wanted him, because that story, that arc was so, such a impactful story. Like a modern classic. Absolutely, and look, I've known Jonathan for a little.
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for a long time and we're from the same neck of the woods. And we've often had conversations about coming together at some point and working on something. And this happens to be a thing where I was trying to write it and there were so many things, so many avenues I wanted to go down and I started feeling like I was spreading the story too far.
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and I needed to bring it together. And I was talking to Will Moss and he said, well, do you think you need some help? Maybe bring in someone that can help you kind of pull this together. And I'm like, oh, I got the perfect person. And that's Jonathan, if he's willing to do it. I know his schedule's absolutely insane. I reached out to him and pretty much without question, he was like, yeah, man, let's do it. And there's something that's really cool. And I shared this on other.
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interviews that he's Jonathan Hickman, right? I mean, this guy is multi award winning that I think he's won a bunch. And even if he hasn't, he should, he should. And I mean, the guy is the architect of the Marvel universe at this point, right? Adam sure feels like it. Yeah. To me, Jonathan Hickman is someone that, if I see his name, it's like instant bite. And if it's on a Marvel title, it's like,
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This is the bar is here, you know, for audio listeners. That's very high. Right. And I say this with all sincerity, he really was very adamant to let me tell the story. He could have easily. Look, this is my first foray into the actual writing side of things. And it was a bit intimidating because.
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He's now in the room and his thoughts and his opinions or what have you can be, you know, it can make or break you to some degree. But every turn he was very mindful of all of those things concerning me. He thought it was a great story and he wanted me to tell the story. He said, okay, what else do you have in mind for this certain moment in the story?
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I will give him and this I'm just sharing vague because it's a lot of things that could spoil, but I would give my thoughts on how I wanted to tell it or give my version of the story. And he says to me, okay, cool. All right, I'll just follow your lead. And I'm like, wow, that's that was such a it was very I guess the word is humbling, but it was it was also.
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It shows me why he is where he is in many ways, because he knows when to be assertive, but he also knows when, okay, you might have a better direction. I'll just take a back seat. I'm not going to let my reputation or what have you get in the way of you really doing the thing that you have the desire to do. That's been.
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Probably the, I said this before, this collaboration has been one of the greatest experiences I've ever had in this industry. You know, and that's saying a lot. I've worked with a lot of great folks, but this was pretty awesome. I finished this story and they wanted to do, the story got.
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got to be so rich that people got excited at Marvel and they wanted to turn it into a mini. And I said, you know what, I think I'm good. I don't wanna, there was something in me that said, you know what, knock it out the park and drop the mic and walk away, if you will, if that can be expressed that way. No, for sure, you actually answered one of my questions because, I mean, no spoilers, obviously, but it ends in a way that
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I mean, it's no secret, it's a one shot, it's an oversized one shot. It's to me, it's a couple of pages shy of being a graphic novel, but it ends in a way that is, it leaves the door open. And I was going to ask if you had more story to tell or more story that's set in this universe. But I really respect that you took the artistic high road and because I mean, let's be real, if it's Marvel asking you to make it a mini, they probably, you know.
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backed up a money truck. Like we can make this a minute, but I respect that, you've told a story you wanted to tell and you're gonna let that breathe. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and let's be honest, Marvel, or any of the big companies, the corporate companies, they have invested interests from that side monetarily. So it's not, there's no, there's no,
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secret about that and you can respect that. And you can kind of, you can kind of fall into that direction if you're not, if you're just thinking in that term, you can see, oh wow, this could be this big thing that could be, but I'm like, you know, let me just take a step back and understand that, you know, what do I really, really, really want?
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from this thing versus what is kind of hitting me right in, you know, on a surface level, that immediate thing. So, you know, trust me, it took a minute to get my heart, get my heart and my head in the right place. But, you know, yeah. Look, and I'm glad you clarified that this is your first, like, you know, real and official foray into writing. I don't want to misspeak. I had, I figured as much, but I didn't want to misspeak.
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Do you want to do more writing? Or do you prefer doing the artwork and things like that? Because that is one thing about this issue that I notice is you're involved in pretty much every phase from the cover art, the interior art, co-writing, even co-colorists as well. What was the biggest, I guess what's the biggest lesson you've learned from writing this issue? Like, do you have a new respect or a new perspective on what goes into writing?
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I definitely want to and will be writing more. I do think that Hickman told me this years ago and this is another reason why I wanted to work with him because he said, dude, you can write. And I'm like, what are you talking about? He said, oh, you got a story, everyone has a story. Just start writing and you put it down on paper and without boring you with.
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details he kind of gave me these these touchstone points that it just made sense. Oh yeah that is kind of true. Obviously you need to learn you know how to tie things together and all those things that make a writer you know one of the you know make a writer a good writer. That's why John that's why Jonathan is such a incredible writer is that he can plant a seed from something that happened.
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you know, five years ago and bring it full circle now. Right. And the multi layers, right? Like the layers to his storytelling and, you know, the most minutia thing has got all this nuance and meaning. And you're like, I think I might need a guidebook for this comic book. Yeah, right. And that's the thing that's kind of cool. That's why I wanted to work with him, because I wanted to see how he how he processes stuff. And truth be told, it's really simple.
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which makes it very complex because he's, you know, he can, he just, you know, whatever story you want to tell, he doesn't, he'll ask questions about it. And once he gets an understanding, he's like, oh, okay. All right. So let's just go. And so that's the first layer of understanding of writing is that, all right, what kind of story do I want to tell? All right. Let's just go.
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That doesn't necessarily mean it will end the way that I'm thinking, you know, currently, but, uh, you have to start it. And I think that's the most important thing, uh, anyone could do. Awesome. I want to shift to talking about the art because Sanford, if I'm being real and I say this like with full respect, this might be some of the best artwork I've ever seen from you. Like it is, it is insanely good. And I mean,
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There's a lot of different things I could talk about about the art. I'm going to just pick two right now. The amount of characters that you pack into this issue, I don't think, I mean, I was like, I don't think he missed anyone in the Marvel universe, right? Like, the Marvel universe is giant. I feel like you pretty much got 80% of them in here. So it was awesome to see your interpretation of the characters I've never seen you draw before, to see like the cameos. And you've got some amazing, like, two-page.
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almost damn near four page spread. I think if you were to really like, you know, lay it out flat it'd be like a four or five page spread. Um, and then the action too, like it is so bombastic. It is, it's like a great blend of, of like a poignant, uh, story that gets you thinking about doom, his place in the world and even Galactus to a large extent as well. But the action in it, man is so fucking dope. And I'm sorry to, as a curse, you know, for lack of better, it's just dope. It's fucking dope.
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And I got to ask, because I got some heavy, because I'm hearing you talk about your early influences with anime and cartoons, and you brought up Dragon Ball. And that is one place my mind immediately went to reading this. There's a lot of big energy blasts, and the fight choreography and sequences had me thinking, I wonder if Sanford was watching Dragon Ball Z in the background while he was drawing this. Like, what were you consuming or looking to? Or what do you feel like?
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prepped its way in as far as inspiration. Like am I far off thinking like the manga and anime influences there? Definitely, man. I wasn't watching Dragon Ball, but I was definitely making the Dragon Ball sound effects, I guess, in my mind. Like we all tend to do, yeah. Yeah, like we all tend to do, you know, that whole, you know, like as a kid, you're in the toy, you're in your toy box and you get the two.
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characters colliding, clashing, and you're making all the bombastic sound effects and what have you. That's honestly where it was for me. Yeah, just, you know, I was a kid in my mind and like, what's the most insane thing that you can think of that would be so cool just to convey on paper? And that's where it all went. Yeah, it's a fun comic book. It's a
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gorgeous comic book to look at. I feel like I've been preaching about it all week because you were kind enough to send me the advanced review and I was at my comic shop yesterday talking to the owner and I was like, look, when you get this doom issue, be prepared for it to fly off the shelf because once people read it and it gets out, it's going to be major. So I'm curious, like how long did it take? Because I mean, like I said, you draw so much. It is such a packed issue. It never feels like, you know,
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claustrophobic or too much. It's like the right amount. And I think the story warrants it, right? I think Hickman says in a press release, like we're dealing with, I'm paraphrasing, but we're dealing with a big character and the story is really big. Was it a difficult task to do all the interior artwork? What are we talking like timeline wise? How much time do you think you spent on the entire project? Man, honestly, once I... So behind me, I have my sketchbook.
39:52
In the sketchbook, I tried to sketch every Marvel character I can think of. Wow. I went through the... I have my encyclopedia handbook of the Marvel Universe. I went through that. Of course, Secret Wars. I went through all these big stories that had a lot of characters and I just started
40:23
characters from different corners of the Marvel universe, everything from the street level to the inner planet. The cosmic deities. The cosmic, yeah, all the cosmic deities. And I, honestly, that's how the story even started for me as far as writing the story. I just started writing characters down. And I'm like, okay, this group of characters will be great for this scene, and this group of characters will be great for that scene. And it all, at least that was the basic framework.
40:52
And then I started putting in the more nuanced parts to it, especially with with Doom and Valeria and their relationship. Because ultimately, yes, you have Galactus and yes, he's wrecking shop and he's he's this he's this force of nature, this galactic hurricane that just keeps building from point two up from two points, two point old.
41:21
3.0 to 5.0, he just gets more and more devastating. And the greater the devastation, the greater the stakes with all these characters. So you have all this stuff going on. And right in the middle of that is Doom and Valeria having this uncle-niece connection that helps make sense of why Doom.
41:51
is able to go about the mission. He's reminded in a weird kind of way, she admires the fact that he has the hubris that he has. And so even in a moment of...
42:10
unclarity, he begins to be reminded of who he is. That part was cool. I will say as much as I loved all the action and the cameos, the quiet moments between Valeria and Doom, man, you nailed it, right? I feel like anytime those two are in a comic book together...
42:36
I really try to pay attention. I really judge that interaction in a book on the dialogue. They have such a unique way of the way they converse with one another. You've got this monarch, this super villain, and then you've got this young child that's a genius. I think you get in the hands of a really good writer, you get some amazing dialogue and magic if you know how to handle them. I give you props. Ewan Hickman definitely brought
43:02
You guys brought your A game on even like those quiet moments and like that character moments between the two. Yeah, thanks man. In terms of Galactus, this is probably the most dangerous Galactus we've seen in a minute. Not to spoil anything, we're seeing Galactus, I think you guys described in the book, this is a Galactus consumed by the hunger. Instead of being on the defense and taking his time, preserving his energy, he's on the hunt. He's actively destroying planets and worlds
43:32
You know, he's got a larger scheme in mind. And I find it funny that 15 minutes before we were supposed to record, the news of Galactus being casted in the new Fantastic Four movie was announced. For anyone that maybe missed the boat, Ralph Innocent is being cast as Galactus. He's from Harry Potter fame. He is an English actor. And he's got this amazing, really gravely deep
44:00
like Yorkshire accent. I think I'm gonna be curious how they have him play Galactus. But I don't even know if I have a question for that other than I'm pretty excited for like, as the casting for this movie comes out, is getting me more hype. When you think of, I guess to bring it back to Doom, I'm sorry, I brought up Galactus just to subvert it to go back to Doom. But I really wanna hear this because I'm hearing you talk about your affinity for Doom. And I'm thinking to myself like, what are...
44:26
Where does my mind go? What images and covers does my mind go when I think of Dr. Doom? And there's two specifically. I think it's because you brought up Secret Wars. I think about that iconic cover of him on issue 10, where his suit and clothes are tattered and he's got his energy blast in a hand and I think he's about to fight the Beyonder in that. And then the second one, maybe because we're talking about Hickman, is I'm thinking of that iconic.
44:53
Hanna where God, Emperor Doom rips Thanos' skull, spine out of his body. I wanna hear, I've tossed a question to you, what are some iconic or images that come to mind when you think of Doctor Doom that have just kind of been living in your head, rent free all this time? Honestly, you can find them, those scenes on the cover to Doom. That's right, you have a lot of Easter eggs on that cover.
45:20
I forgot there's like the different moments and iconic. Yeah, this really is a love. I think I heard you describe it. This comic is a love letter to Dr. Doom. That's exactly what it is, man. Yeah, him issue 10 of Secret Wars that cover. That was the cover that made me. Really, you know, and I'm young, I'm still what, 10 years old, but I'm looking at this cover and I'm like, I've never seen a cover like that before, where this character.
45:49
I'm like, you sure he's a villain? He seems so, but it was again, it wasn't about good or evil. It was about him and his defiance and his hubris and how he is so resolute on his objective. A God can barely kill this guy, you know, which is, you know, which at that time, you know, Beyonder.
46:19
Um, you could say, uh, was, was one of those, those characters, um, most powerful characters of that time. And he, he's standing total total this guy with this guy or, you know, at least, you know, on one knee, you know, everyone else is dead, but he's still holding on. And honestly, that was that, that, that image was, was kind of the image that sparks this whole story, uh, to some degree, like what
46:49
How could he, out of all the characters in the Marvel Universe, be the one still standing? What is it about this character that allows him to still be standing? Yeah, power is magic, whatever, but there's something deeper. And that's how he perceives himself and how he views himself. That's more powerful than any superpower.
47:17
if you will, that is a superpower. Like no other character really has that, not on that level, you know? Maybe Namor, he might be the closest, but even with him, he can go off on the, you know, he gets distracted, he gets distracted a lot. I think that word defiance is excellent to describe Dr. Doom. Like that defiance and an insane willpower, like the willpower that he's got in that focus. And I think
47:46
You can also maybe, you know, you could definitely attribute a lot of those attributes to someone like name war. But I think what Dr. Doom's got is just he's got a cool point, like infinite cool points. It's something about every, you know, Dr. Doom really is the whole package, you know, attitude, background. You know, there's that empathetic factor you brought up by his love of his mom, you know, even went to hell for her, you know, like his power set. He's a genius. He's got technology. He's also into, you know, sorcery and dark magic. Like he really is the complete package.
48:16
And I feel like it's safe to say that you have been inside of the mind of this character, probably for like weeks, if not months, maybe even years now. And I think I've got a I've got a question for you that I think you might be the perfect person to answer. I mentioned that I went into my local comic shop last week. The shop is called Gotham City Limit. They're a full disclaimer. They're a sponsor of this show. They're big supporters of what we do here. And obviously, they love comics as much as we do, if not.
48:43
And the owner of the shop, his name is Ben Kingsbury. I allow him every now and then to send in voicemails any time I have a creator on. And I asked him to send in one for you today, Sanford. And I think you're going to get a kick out of this question as someone that's been, you know, that at this point, you could probably confidently say you're a Dr. Doom expert. So I'm going to queue this up for you. Hey, Sanford, Ben K, Gotham City Limit, Jacksonville, Florida. Thanks so much for taking some time to answer my very, very important question.
49:13
So we love to rock some ACDC while we're comic buying down here at the limit. And one of the reasons is because of the overwhelming success of the original Marvel Cinematic Universe, when we think of Iron Man, we now think of Thunderstruck by ACDC. I think Doctor Doom has that potential. So here's my question. In the MCU, future potential Doctor Doom, Iron Man is to Thunderstruck as Doctor Doom is to what potential song? I'll leave you to answer.
49:43
Thanks so much for making awesome comics. We couldn't do it without you. And remember, Short Box Nation, always take it to the limit.
49:53
There we go. That was Ben K of Gotham City Limit. Just to recap that question, maybe give a little more context too. If you walk into Gotham City Limit any time of the day, I don't care if you're there first thing in the morning at 11 o'clock or you're there at 6 PM as they're closing, 99.999% chance, Ben's got ACDC playing. He has got me trained to where as I'm going to the shop, I immediately start humming Thunderstruck. I mean, I've heard more ACDC.
50:21
in my lifetime than maybe anyone else on the planet. I can only imagine how many times Ben has heard that song. I guess what would be the song for Dr. Doom if ACDC Thunderstruck is to Iron Man thanks to the movies? Oh my gosh, man. Wow. I have two lanes of thought in terms of music-wise. I immediately started thinking about anything Black Sabbath for some reason.
50:50
because of just the tone of it is dark and brooding and it's not high level, it's just kind of like this low, it can be high level energy, but there's something about Black Sabbath music that sticks out to me in terms of the sound. And that can be any of the Touchstone songs. I'm not as well versed into metal as I am to hip hop or what have you.
51:20
Now there is a song by MF DOOM called Supervillain. Just look it up. It's heavy drums and just thumping drums behind and the piano sound is very aggressive in the samples. Um, so yeah, those two, as a matter of fact, I think I used that MF DOOM track to promote some stuff on Instagram a while back.
51:49
You brought up MF Doom and I'm not going to spoil it for any other hip hop heads that go pick up Doom number one that's in shops right now. Just know that Sanford, I see you. I tip my hat for the opening line of that comic book and for anyone that goes to pick up Doom number one. When you go pick up that issue and you recognize the opening line of that book, whoever sends me an email first and tells me what song Sanford used in that, I'll send you guys a free comic.
52:20
And I just remembered the question I wanted to ask you and why I brought up that Galactus casting. So they haven't announced the casting for Doom yet. And I think it's safe to say that that is what a lot of people are waiting on is who are they gonna cast for Doctor Doom? And I'm curious if you had the opportunity to cast anyone, anyone that you wanted to, your personal casting, who are some names that come to mind in terms of actors that could portray Doctor Doom, right?
52:49
It's kind of, he's already been cast as a character, as Magneto actually. Oh gosh, what's the actor's name? Michael Fassbender or Ian McKellar? Yeah. Oh, Michael Fassbender. I thought he would have been great and obviously he was the greatest, Magneto as well. But he was the first person I thought of, this was a while ago, this is back when the ill-fated Fantastic Four film,
53:20
Which one? The one with Michael B. Jordan or the ones with Jessica Alba on? The Jessica Alba one. Got it. That around that time. And it was like, oh my God, can we get someone outside of the WB, you know, actors that that line of actors from that time period? They were like the ones that were, you know, picked for all this stuff. And it was just kind of a odd, you know, campy.
53:49
choice but you know 10 years prior you never thought you would have gotten any of that stuff they say it takes a miracle to make a film I know this firsthand with with all the stuff that's happening with Bitter Root I mean you know good stuff but it's a lot of stuff a lot of a lot of things but to see all these films that's been produced by Marvel over the last 25 years it's been
54:19
Amazing. You brought up Bitter Root. We're talking Hollywood. And this question, I put this in honor to my man, Walter Gantt, who texted me and said, if you don't ask him about Bitter Root, we're no longer friends. So I got to ask, your pinned tweet on Twitter is one from 2022. And it's an announcement about Bitter Root, Omnibus. It's coming out. It's got a short story that I'll tie into the family's past history for the next chapter of Bitter Root. What can fans expect from Bitter Root?
54:47
Next, is it coming back in comic book form? Is there any update on the movie? I know you've got Brian Coogler and Regina King attached, but it's been at least one or two years since we heard any update. Did you share anything? As far as the film, not much on that, but there is a script. We saw the script. The script got approved a few tweaks here and there on some things.
55:17
But in terms of the comic, there will be a comic as well. The next generation will be introduced. We hope to have some cool stuff to show by San Diego as to plan. Actually, there's an image that was floating around, kind of a redacted image that was floating around the last...
55:47
year or so. But that's been updated. We have a really cool promotional poster and some other visuals that we'll use to promote and present at San Diego. So yeah, our hope is to have this series come back sometime late this year or very early next year. Oh, wow. Yeah, hell yeah. That's the plan.
56:17
I think what the series ended in, I think 2018, issue 15 was the last one. And since then it's been like we've gotten trades and obviously the omnibus. Are you itching to come back or are you kind of like enjoying the success and the fact, you know, letting people catch up with it and read it and all that, like, yeah, I mean, how's it been like just to sit back a little bit and kind of watch it do what it do? Yeah, it's been enjoyable to see fans appreciate it and get, um, get new fans discovering it.
56:46
and seeing it reach these different corners of fandom. It's being taught in schools, universities, universities as curriculum, which is pretty mind boggling to be honest with you. And so, it's one of those books, but it was honestly one of those books that I felt like especially
57:12
Unfortunately, to some degree, the times that we're in from a social standpoint, and I'll say social, I wouldn't even say political. I think it's just all social and that's kind of being heightened through the political scope.
57:30
in this space that we're in now, the book has even more, it resonates even more. I think that's partly why it's been being used in schools, institutions right now as a part of curriculum. Kind of a cool, semi-cool story. Our book got flagged in Pensacola.
57:57
Florida. I was like, is there another Pensacola in the country? Of course. I'm sorry, Sanford. It's Florida, man. It's Florida. It's Florida, man. I would be disappointed if we didn't get any kind of flags at this point. That means we're doing something if they're concerned about our story. You know what it is? It's the damn, what do they call it in the comic? It's the damn
58:27
Yeah, man. Real life genos at work. Yeah. Yeah. I think you'll dig where we're going with that whole concept in the next arc as well. Like we took that whole concept of the genu. And we put a little bit of what's happening in our society now, or how it's being perceived now. This country, the history of this country.
58:56
how people view this country through the rose colored glasses. We use a lot of that in the, in the next story arc to, um, to, to betray, uh, the, the next level, the next level of threats and monsters out there. I'm excited now. I'm, I'm, I didn't think I was going to get an answer as far as like a timeline, much less that soon definitely signed me up. And I want to share something here. I had read an article where you were talking about,
59:26
when you were coming up with Bitter Root, you and Chuck Brown and David Walker were trying to figure out how are we going to promote this in front of people. You specifically were talking about having a little bit of hesitance to go to comic conventions and go the traditional route in the traditional industry. But instead, you guys went to, here you say, instead of a trade show or just conventions, we did interviews on black radio, hip hop radio, with DJ Eclipse, Sirius XM, Shade 45, and.
59:55
Once again, I guess it ties back to the compliment I gave you earlier of like, always injecting the spirit of hip hop in there. And I thought this was so, you know, it sounds corny saying it, but you know, it is really hip hop, right? Like the, the, the fundamental essence of hip hop and like that grassroots and making, you know, thinking outside the box and making do. What advice would you give to like a comic creator that's trying to get their vision and their story out there and they want to maybe go outside of the box? Like, is there anything that you learned?
01:00:23
from that experience of going the non-traditional route that you would pass down to the next generation? I think the biggest thing is that there is an audience outside of comics that like stories, stories that directly speak to them. That's why we went through those outlets is because we knew that those outlets had, there was something in our stories that
01:00:52
that was a bridge to that particular group of folks because we had stories that resonated in those spaces and we knew that they weren't necessarily connected to the comic space, but they liked those stories. We try to educate them on how there are more stories like that, like what we're trying to present. But...
01:01:22
you would have to pursue them in the space, in the comic graphic novel space, if you will. So just trying to educate them on what our story's about, but also allowing them to see that there are more stories that they can pursue. That was kind of the intention from the beginning, even if it wasn't necessarily that a route, just in the fact that we're black creators
01:01:52
you know, creating stories that have diverse characters that alone, sometimes can be missed from that audience because they, they're, they're, they're not seeing it per se as immediately. So we, we try to make it more immediate to, to that space. That's what I said. I've got, I've got one more question. I think that kind of might piggyback off that and a lot of topics that we were discussing.
01:02:21
I know that I couldn't live with myself having you on the show and I not ask about your work on the hip hop covers. Not only did you do two of my favorite ones, which is the extraordinary X-Men, which was homage to De La Soul, 3 Feet High and Rising, but also a really cool deep cut with the all-new Hawkeye number one cover you did, which homage one of my favorite albums, Pete Rock and C. L. Smoove, Mecca and the Soul Brother. I don't know if you remember this, but last year in New York Comic Con...
01:02:51
You were on a panel with Rob Markman, Bilsin Kevich, and I'm drawing a blank on some of the other folks that were on there, but the panel was about basically the intersection of hip hop and comic books. And I sat in on that panel and I recorded an episode live from New York Comic Con, and I said it was one of the best panel I ever sat on. It was like I was in heaven. I was like, I'm sitting here hearing people talk about comic books and hip hop. What music do you listen to when you're creating?
01:03:21
What's your top five favorite albums, man? Do you have albums that are your go-to, that are your personal favorite? Like, could you compile them into a top five? Yeah, you definitely made this last question is a doozy. You go out with a bang. You know what's interesting is I don't listen to hip hop as much when I'm working as you think. I listen to a lot of podcasts, a lot of podcasts. I listen to NPR.
01:03:50
which is, um, it's like the gold standard of podcasting. Like I, yeah. Yeah. When I was first trying to get into a podcasting, it was like, you know, that was my bar was like, how are they doing it? And then how do I add my flair to it? What are some of the podcasts in your queue? Let's see. 11 o'clock comics. Those guys are good off panel. Those guys, big shots at David. Yeah. David is cool. Uh, word balloon, the OG, you know, um, your podcasts. Uh, you know, I appreciate it. Yeah.
01:04:20
So, you know, a lot of those types. And this is not a, I guess this is a bit of a self promotion, but I listened to Felix, I watch his podcast. He does this unboxing of live, live unboxing of different artists that he represents. That's always fun whenever he does one of those. Blurb without fear, those guys, I listen to those guys.
01:04:49
You know, but I do trust me. I listen to a lot of hip hop, but it's not every day per se. I have to I have to be kind of in a place where whatever I'm working on, I could. Let that play in the background and enjoy it. I hear you say that you listen to a lot of comic podcasts, and I find that interesting because I don't know. I mean, personally speaking.
01:05:13
I am always, I guess, working on the podcast and thinking and talking comics. Like you don't ever get tired of like hearing about comics and hearing about the process and all that or? Well, don't get me wrong. It's not the only podcast that I listen to, but those are the ones that I tend to listen to mainly when we're, you know, if we're talking about comic related stuff, if I listen, it will be those podcasts. But in terms of just
01:05:40
I've got so many, I got Complex, the music interviews, you know, obviously with all this stuff happening with Kendrick and Drake, I went down the rabbit hole of every interview Kendrick has ever done in the last seven years or so. And it's kind of wild how it's a lot like creating comics. It's like the way he tells the stories about how he creates his music. I think all artists kind of think similar, whether it's music or visual.
01:06:09
So any kind of process podcasts, I would say, whether it's music or visuals or whatever, how to, sometimes I can go down a rabbit hole of watching a lot of history. Obviously, with Bitter Root, those come in handy listening to those podcasts. There are a lot of audio books. I haven't done an audio book in a while. The last one I did was the biography.
01:06:39
Well, it's not a biography. So yeah, it is a biography of a J Dilla. Oh, the Dilla time, the Dilla time. Yeah, the Dilla time. Yeah, that's a good one. And that book was pretty fascinating. I'll give you one recommendation. If it's not on your radar, Ra Kim put out a book, autobiography, I think two years ago. It's like at the top of my to read pile. But I think he also put out a audio book to he's reading it. So, yeah, I've already went down, you name it. If especially if it's done by the
01:07:08
artists, narrating that makes it even more fascinating with the audio books. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to check that out. I mean, considering he's like one of my, whatever, top five, 10 favorite rappers, I, I'm kind of ashamed. I haven't read it yet, but I'll probably get to that next. And if you've never read the common, you've probably read the common. I don't even know what I'm talking about. You probably read that book too. Yeah. Yeah. I've been up on a few, a few of those audio books for sure. Yep. Hell yeah.
01:07:36
Stanford, I have taken more than enough time from you. I know you got a lot going on. So I'm going to ask you one last question that hopefully is super easy. When Doom number one hits shops today, and people are going out there to pick up the comic book because they heard this interview and they're hype and they want to read this love letter to Dr. Doom, is there anything that you hope that a reader takes from it? Is there an impression that you want them to have? Or not saying that.
01:08:03
Not saying that they can't enjoy it and come up with their own thoughts and opinions, but did you have something in mind when you wrote this? Any, you know, any hopes that you personally have? Like, man, I hope this does X, Y, Z, or gets them to think this. Like you mentioned earlier, it's a love letter to the character, Doom. It's a love letter, honestly, to the Marvel Universe. What impacted me as a young kid growing up? And of course,
01:08:33
dove into the Marvel Universe, especially from the galactic standpoint of it and the grandness of the Marvel Universe. When we were coming up, there were always those seminal moments through a single story, the death of Captain Marvel. Even to some degree, in many ways, the Doctor Doom, Doctor Strange, when he goes to hell to-
01:09:01
You know, the Triumph and Torment. Just trying to, you know, touch on those moments through this story is what I'm paying homage to. We have a saying here on the show that when a comic's really good, you know, it's got to respect your time and your wallet. And I think you hit both of those just fine. So you know, obviously a big shout out to Jonathan Hickman and Richel Rosenberg for the assist. And I can't recommend that enough to everyone that's tuning in.
01:09:29
Whether you are a Dr. Doom die hard or a completely new reader, I think Doom number one is a fantastic comic book. It respects your time and your wallet and it's just one of those one shots that I think people are going to be talking about for a while. Sanford, I'm going to have links to your Twitter, all of your social medias in the show notes. I'll also have a preview, some previews to the Doom comic book in these show notes. But is there anything else that you want to say, anything you want to plug or anything that we might have missed?
01:09:59
I don't know, man. I think we covered everything, man, from Doom to ACDC. I think there's nothing else to talk about, man. Thanks. Thanks to everyone. Thank you, man. Thank you for the support. And thank you, everyone out there. Thank you again.
01:10:18
There you have it, Shortbox Nation. That's the end of the show. Thank you for hanging out. Thanks for being here. And a special shout out if you made it this far. If you enjoyed this episode and you have some thoughts or comments that you wanna share with us, write us at theshortboxjaxx at gmail.com. And if you really liked this episode, help us spread the word. Share this episode with a friend or someone you know that loves comics as much as we do. And don't forget to leave us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
01:10:46
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01:11:12
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01:12:10
and continue to make mine and yours short box. I'll catch you soon. Peace.
