[0:00] Music.
[0:22] Welcome to babylon 5 for the second time my name is brent allen and i'm Jeff Akin, brent and i used to be star trek podcasters but then we watched babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. Now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, paying attention to all the things we didn't even know about the first time around. And you know what? We are still watching this, searching out those sci-fi messages. We found a bunch the first time. We're looking for some new ones. We're going to be asking what this episode, Parliament of Dreams, is going to be telling us. Now, along with those messages, we also love our games. Jeff, we love our games here at Babylon five for the second time. And while we really can't play the prediction game anymore, we can kind of revisit our predictions and revisit our first experience a little bit. Right.
[1:26] So Jeff, do you remember what you thought of not what Parliament of Dreams would be, but after you watched it, do you remember what your initial impressions of this was the first time around? You know, overall, and I was kind of surprised actually, when I went back and looked at this, but overall, I didn't care for this episode very much. I was like, oh, okay. I loved immediately. I loved Netoff. And that is a love affair that lasted to the end with a little break in the middle. And I didn't like Lanier at all.
[1:52] In fact, I didn't like him for quite a long time. And I had some confusion around stuff. I remember I didn't really understand why this Earth-centric president and hate crimes starting to be perpetrated around the planet were happening. But we're also going to have this holiday to recognize the diversity and religious beliefs on Babylon 5. So...
[2:13] All in all, I was kind of meh on it, although I have fond memories of it looking back. Do you remember what you thought of it? I remember it being good, not great. It felt very season one-ish of 90s sci-fi. I remember thinking kind of like you, Jeff, it was really a mediocre episode that had some really fantastic parts interlaced, and those parts really elevated the entire show. I remember moments like Dylan and Sinclair getting married and that never, ever came back up again. Nope. I really want, like, would there have been a thing of like, had Sinclair stayed around and that relationship would have developed between Dylan and Sinclair? Would they have eventually gotten to a spot to be like, well, you know, we've actually been married for like three years now already. And they would have called back to this moment. I wonder if they would have done something like that. I also remember like at the end, at the end of the episode, there's that statement made about the various religions that compose humanity contrasted with what I assumed at the time was a statement about how the other alien races are very mono religious within their worlds. And we have all this diversity here with humanity.
[3:22] And then I also remember being very confused about the title because there was neither a parliament nor dreams.
[3:29] And that's really what I remember about this episode. Good news on that, Brent. I have evidence of time travel that will come up later on in our discussion on that exact topic. Excited to hear about that. Controvertible proof. But to get there first, Brent, we've got to watch the episode. Let's go do that right now. For those of you joining us for the first time, Brent and I watched this thing two and a half years ago. We haven't watched it since. We have a conversation about that first viewing up on our YouTube or wherever you get your podcast. If you haven't watched that, it looks terrible. Awful. But the – yeah, I mean, in fact, don't go to YouTube. Just go download the audio. You know, Jeff, I was looking at it earlier today and I was realizing I think I was about like 60 pounds heavier. You have slimmed up like very well. Thank you. Actually, yeah. Thank you. It takes those moments of going back to notice that. You too, by the way. You too. You know. Us both. Yes, and. I've been packing a little bit back on, but.
[4:32] Tis the holidays and all of those great happy things that do that to us. You've been, you've been eating a lot more lately, huh? I've been at, yeah. And later in the day, which is, yeah, I got to get better at that again. I will crack that whip on myself. If you're watching this on YouTube, you are about to transition into the reaction of us watching this episode. If you want to see the full unedited version of what we're going to watch, you can catch that on our Patreon page at patreon.com slash Babylon five. First, that's the number five and the word first or whatever the link is down below exactly because that thing changes sometimes hey uh heads up for everyone out there everything from this point forward is full of spoilers so if you're watching babylon 5 for the first time you're aware jeff and i were about two and a half years ago consider this your warning you have been warned if you want to know nothing we could be talking about anything from any part anywhere in the entirety of the Babylon 5 universe lore and whatnot. And not just that, but also pretty much any sci-fi that we have any knowledge of whatsoever, which is quite a lot.
[5:39] And if you're listening to this on the audio podcasting app, we're going to meet you on the other side of the episode where we are going to share our thoughts. We're going to talk about new messages that we uncover, maybe new messages that we didn't catch the first time around. Maybe we reemphasize some old messages. So with that, Jeff, let's go watch an episode. Let's do it. accessing file how about an entire week where every alien species on babylon 5 was encouraged to demonstrate their dominant religious belief it'll advance the cause of interplanetary peace and understanding dominant this one's right up there with having my gums extracted my gums extracted katherine sakai that's right yep doc area nine was the uh overhead i wonder a little jab.
[6:27] Back in the day of random speaking roles for security officers. Jeff, you have been so corrected. It's a pig set.
[6:48] Apparently that you stay put was an ad lib. Oh, really? Like it kept moving. Greetings ambassador jakar it's been a long time but i doubt you've forgotten your old associate duran i am dying about time in fact by the time you get this recording i will already be dead cheers ah but where's this jakar later on in the show man right what what it was the dawn of the third aid i forgot about this plot line i remember it now but i forgot about this it's good it's so good i love it uh oh you know what we get in this one yes i think really that's where this comes from i think so is this episode oh gonna be listening for that i have ordered my considerable assets liquidated upon my death it's a great job on the makeup like he looks given to someone eminently qualified to kill you you will be dead within 48 hours of receiving this message it pleases me to know that you will live in fear jacob i don't remember how this turns out don't tell me though okay i don't remember how this how this turns out like unless this is all like a ruse just to make him live in fear the timing here is great there she is hey good natal Your new aide, Ambassador.
[8:13] Interesting. No. Eating, purging, eating, purging. Catherine's on board. I just saw her come through customs. Thought I'd let you know before you ran into her or something. I appreciate that. Unless you want to see her. No, no. Not going back there. Was she with anyone? No. Not that I could see. Like, I don't want to see her. Also, can I see her? Because actually, I'd really like to see her again. Here we go. Oh, Brett's is like your, this is peak Babylon 5 for Brett right here. Look, I'm so staring at the idol right there, the big A idol sitting there on the table. This seems so much more festive than Cartagia's court. Right, even like when they have the jester doing his thing. Like, it's not this fun. I want to know if JMS explained to anybody this idol. Do you know what the last song said just before he died? Veers into it too he's like can i kill him now let me get back to you you sure you don't want to see her absolutely you know there's a piece of me that i think wouldn't mind being a centauri what happened to that toast.
[9:27] Jersik is living his best life right here. I love how much fun he's having. This is great. Here we go, here we go!
[9:50] He's kissing her ass. You are very cute from Embare. Claudia is losing it back there. You are cute too, in an annoying sort of way. Everybody's cute. Everybody's cute. Everybody's cute. Please get that clip. I'm stunning. And purple, I'm stunning. Please get those two clips, Jeff. Please, let's get those as sound drops. He's passed out. That too. how can you be sure there is an assassin on board what if he only told you this to frighten you unlikely she's like i am sick and twisted i thought if he wanted the best he would have gone to the assassin's guild to get a killer it is a tradition with the fentanyl core to leave a black flower near his victim as a warning so they can get their affairs in order have you received a death blossom then i wouldn't worry i'm sure the question will resolve itself soon enough i love him getting paranoid and her just being like whatever if there's a problem yo i'll solve it i'll solve it oh it's the chess piece it's the chess piece yeah i like the little sleepy bedtime.
[11:05] Music.
[11:11] Is that a horse's head? Do you have no idea how that got into my bed? Don't know how a lot of things get into your bed, Ambassador. I don't know how anything gets into your bed. Your reputed fascination with Earth women, for instance. Her headpiece looks weird.
[11:25] In the chat, someone said, it's actually Kodak's headpiece. Oh, is it? Didn't have time to make a new one. Oh, that's from the land. It is. It's very misshapen. Yeah. Young, wet behind the ears. Lanier. We finally get Lanier. I thought we had Lanier from episode two. I've been expecting you. For three episodes, apparently, according to Brent. You can look up Lanier of the third fane of Chudomo. This is great. It is forbidden. I cannot have an aide who will not look up. You will be forever walking into things. Okay, Dukat. Please. Jeff, I want to clarify this. Sarah, over in our council chambers, drops into the chat, it's good symmetry that she said to him what Dukat said to her. What are we talking about? I feel like I just missed something. What is this? Yeah, so Dukat before, so she became, right, she became Dukat's aide. Right. Early on when he was leading the Great Council and then he kind of mentored her all the way up. That exact same scene happened where she wouldn't make eye contact with him and he was like, look up. I can't have an aide who won't look at me. And she was like, it's not right. And he'll be walking into stuff. Like word for word, it was the exact same scene. I'm going to send it back because I want to hear that. I remember what you, I remember Dukat saying that to Dylan. Now that you say that, I do remember that.
[12:46] Oh, smoky alien sector. You wish protection. Yes. How will this guy do? That's painful in my ears. I need a bodyguard, someone who isn't from my own world.
[13:05] Music. That's great. That's so great. I almost forgot what you look like. We're not good for each other. I know. It was always three parts passion, two parts teeth. This was exactly. Can't go through all that again. One more part passion than it is teeth. Pretty good balance. They're going to bed. Oh, God. I can't believe it. You know, I have water in my shower, Catherine. You know, I do see what he sees in her. Oh, totally. Will you follow me into fire? What I love here is, like, they're trying to make their relationship poetry. Right? Like, they're talking about it at this, like, level of literature, almost. And it just adds a whole level of mystique and mystery to it. It's just very alluring. I remember liking this, but I don't remember it being this good. Will you follow me into fire? And the Nine said, yes. Then do this in testimony to the one who will follow, who will bring death. They got the little triangles with the jingles on them. The promise of new life and renewal disguised as defeat. She just literally laid out the whole Minbari storyline. Yeah. From here, I'm going to take it back again a little bit. So she starts off with, you know, in the fire and this, so that's like the formation. Sorry. What were you saying? Garibaldi's sleeping.
[13:07] Oh, yes.
[14:34] It's kind of on brand. Sorry. But it starts off with her being like, here's how, oh, actually, yeah, here we are. Uh, Fabio in the council chambers chat quote from Dylan, uh, is the same as the quote from Valen when he formed the first gray council. So she's starting at the beginning of the gray council, but listen to what she says and think about it in terms. I want you to think about her and Naroon reforming. In the Wheel of Fire? Yeah, the whole Minbari society. Think about that story as she gives her whole. Point of clarification, we didn't actually see Valen creating the Great Council at first. No. Yeah, because all we ever saw of Valen was Sinclair standing there in very weird makeup that was like, Hi, my name's Valen. These are my koshes that I brought with me. Right. Okay, so just let's rewatch this through that lens. Into darkness, into death. And the Nine said, yes. Then do this. Follow me. Testimony to the one who is. I'm sorry. The follow me into darkness and into death. Wasn't that the line that Dukat asked D'Lynn when he inaugurated her into the Great Council? I think so. My guess is like, well, Fabio's saying it's what Valen said when he formed it, but I think that's probably the oath now to become Setai.
[15:50] Disguised as defeat. That will fire right there. She's the culmination of the prophecy. Yeah. Taste of it. Of it or it. That's two different things I'm going to do. Oh, that is... That is way too sensual of her to do that. And so it begins. She just started the fifth season. What in the world are you doing here? You were supposed to meet me at the Menbari's Ceremony. Uh-oh.
[16:23] Oh, no. That would be great if that's what he said there. Let me see if I've got this straight. Let me know when you're finished. I want a full report. Yes, sir. Just think about how... From the bottom of my heart, here we go. Hot pink is definitely your color.
[16:41] Just think how in three years, that guy is going to be the only person that cares that no one knows where Garibaldi is. Right. What the heck happened to Mr. Garibaldi? I don't understand. She's just a mind-like... The last planet that you surveyed for us? Traitor, whatever. Turned up a substantial amount of Quantium 40. Yes. First mention. In terms of the contract, You are entitled to a piece of the profit. How's that look to you? Like a lot of zeros. Oh, my. I imagine you'll want to be celebrating your good fortune. Good day, Mr. Chi. Or just her fortune, period. Right. Thanks. I want to know how much it is. Yeah, she's looking around like, girl. Cheers. You know, it's kind of like an honorable thing. She didn't even know that she was due that money. Like, they could have just kept it and not said a word, and she'd never known, you know? And it didn't do them any good to give it to her or to do that for her outside of maybe like, hey, be a good courier for us in the future. And they were excited for her, right? Like, oh, this is so great. Almost makes you think there's some altruism to humanity. Or it really was, hey, part of this is like you keep doing good work for us. Like a tip almost, right? The courier to Pari ambassador. Yes. We've got an environmental brownout in green too. We need authorization to reroute power from sensors until we fix the coupler. All right, fine, authorization for granted. Leave me alone. I should go, I'm sorry. Could have called whoever the commander is on duty right now. You can have the flar and I never... Don't. Don't touch me unless you need it. Go for the kids. Go for the kids. I need it.
[18:10] Right now, Crusade soundtrack goes in. I wish to formally request that my attache Nathoth be reassigned immediately to another sector. What delay? A lot of Narn in this episode. He met with an unfortunate accident the day he was scheduled, We have not yet found a replacement. What are you talking about? The courier is right here.
[18:33] That's how we look at me. Like Jigsaw almost. Right? I don't understand it. They were just like standing up together and now they're like, what happened? You should sleep. I need more. They're doing what Talia and Ivana are going to do in about a season change. Check out this hook. I remember glasses. yeah oh pain stick pain giver pain giver that will make this far more this is this is like uh intersections in real time kind of right this is fantastic for intersections in real time just they will kill you he's cool and calm just doing his job my orders are quite specific.
[19:13] He's got glasses no don't even come to his ears and he doesn't have ear lobes to like hook them around like, I imagine you could make me extremely wealthy but to betray a commission would violate the spirit of the Fentamacour I love how he's clearly just a nerd who knows how to kill people really well we must all make our little sacrifices ambassador I have made mine and you are about to make you, you know what I really like this guest actor the what the guest actor there yeah He's perfect for it. Ambassador Jakar. Like, he's great. Why hold it in? Cry out, ambassador. Oh! Cry out. Cry out. Cartagia. Before giving you that satisfaction. You know what? Here you go. I would die before giving you that satisfaction. Wow.
[20:12] Natos. This is none of your affair, Natos. Leave. Oh, it is now. While you can. I'm his aide. until i've done what i came here to do i'm your backup department so i was gonna say at what point are we like oh she's in on it oh she's gonna she came to kill jacar oh like it's supposed to seem like they're against each other but then it's gonna seem like they're together but then they're really against each other and he's gonna play this back and forth it's good writing it's really good well done james i'm glad you took that bit of advice from me that one time, she's legit like whooping his butt man just gotta make him believe Sure.
[20:52] Music.
[20:58] I had a real close camera angles there. That hurt. Ambassador, it was the only way to disable the pain givers. What are you going to do with Tupari? I'm gonna... Oh, yes! Well, well, you're finally awake. But to make up for it, I went ahead and deposited a substantial amount of money to your personal account back home. No, the Phantom of Cour, they'll think I betrayed my commission. Sold out our principles They will kill me Yes they will won't they Actually they should be here in about one hour It would be even more unfortunate If they were to find you here when they arrive She's so excited I'm safe because the commission was yours alone That's your flight I suggest you board quickly With luck they may never find you But if they do you will know pain And you will know fear And then you will die Have a pleasant flight God they're perfect right Somebody got married the other day Maybe that's why Jakar's smiling. Funny, I didn't think Londo was his type. Ironically, he totally is. I will say the chemistry between these two is off the charts. You think we'll get it right this time? I don't know. But I'll sure have a good time trying.
[22:14] I guess we take an understanding that was Catherine Shippen. I know. He said it'd be just a few more minutes. It's like they're only demonstrating the various belief systems. Father Crisanti, a Roman Catholic. To mr. Hyakawa a Zen Buddhist. Mr. Rashid each other Muslim. Mr. Rosenthal an Orthodox Jew running out of the Akhla la Suu, That's interesting. You had a Muslim and an Orthodox Jew standing right next to each other. Yeah, which is great. I understand there were like 160 people lined up. So I did read something in the Lurker's Guide about this moment right here. Yeah. I would normally save it to late, but it's so strong.
[22:50] Regarding Sinclair remembering all the names of these folks, I'm quoting here. It says, we used many of the real names of the people that were just standing there in line, many of whom did belong to the religion that they had come to represent. They went down this line of, he says, 250 people and went over their names twice with O'Hare. That's it. After that, he got each name right every time. Amazingly quick memorization. Wow. Those were their real names as he went down the line. Interesting, right? That is impressive. All right, Brent, we just finished watching Parliament of Dreams for the second time. What is top of mind for you, my friend? You know, this episode is better than I remember it. Agreed. I had way more fun watching this episode this time around than I remember having the very first time I watched this. Totally. I'm going to attribute some of that to the quality of the episode. The episode was really funny. I found myself laughing a lot through this episode. A lot, yeah. I think also the company is a big reason why I enjoyed this episode better because last time I watched it by myself. Right. Makes a difference. I do think the company was there. But when you're in these early episodes in your world building, here's the thing. We know what happens with Catherine and in Sinclair. And so we love this moment.
[24:01] We know what happens with Lanier, even at the end when we hated that part, but we know his whole journey and we love seeing early Lanier here. We know what happens with Londo and Jakar and those guys and watching them in these elements. Just this, this is an episode as a, as a veteran viewer of the series wraps everything in the story. Nostalgia you know what i mean like it just it just feels good coming back to this episode because i think of all of these various elements that we have and even watching claudia crack up in the background and like just these little little pieces all the way through man a lot a lot more fun than i remember a lot more fun i this episode is elevated for me watching it a second time around i think this episode elevated for both of us as we watch the series because we were able to kind of think back to it in a couple of ways. I mean, nothing profound, you know, seeds, no profound seeds were planted here or anything like that, but just at a high level.
[25:04] As time went on we remembered it more fondly coming into this there's nothing to not like about this episode the it what this won an emmy for makeup design and it's obvious like.
[25:15] The costuming and stuff and the makeup looked fantastic the writing was brilliant the chemistry not just between sinclair and sakai was amazing but jakar and natoth like i mean the character development that happened in this episode is incredible. But what I love too are the things that watching it through the lens of knowing what happens. Those little lines, right? I didn't think Londo was Jakar's type. Well, turns out they're literally going to end their lives together. They're going to spend all that time. Londo within purple, I'm stunning. Turns out in black, you're kind of a jerk. The assassin, right? Telling Jakar to cry out and then him saying that he would die before giving him that satisfaction we see that here in villain jacar and we kind of like oh look i think it's part of why we might not have liked it as much the first time as jacar was still just the clearly evil reptile well i mean i'll go i'm sorry i'll go back to the to the idea there's so much foreshadowing in this episode you don't understand foreshadowing when you're in your first trip through exactly you just don't like you get good luck picking out what i mean sometimes you can look at that and go that's foreshadowing right there but good foreshadowing you can't do that too the one thing you can say and this is foreshadowing is the mention of quantium 40 and we called that out the first time we watched it oh that's going to be something it's very valuable and they made a point of calling it out nothing else in here seemed to like you know stand out as anything and.
[26:45] Quantium 40 becomes jump gates so they make jump gates did not remember that but okay it's a big deal it's a big deal like early on just because it's so rare and such a thing and then it becomes less of a we call it q40 eventually you know slide for it do they now q40 do got it all right do they ever bind it with somebody's skeleton and make it impenetrable.
[27:07] My quantium 40 claws make that person make that person just be able to blip around the universe like nightcrawler here's a here's a cool note from our friend uh nia quoting jms i don't know if this is in lurker's guide or if this is somewhere else the biggest change in the show came once we began writing scripts after they become shooting the episodes again they could see the actors and find their fingerprints and stuff like that and this episode is the first one that they wrote after they started filming the other ones that we've seen so far were all written i guess in that year interlude between the gathering and when they started re re uh reshooting right so this is the first one once the actors were back on set and you could see how they were doing i i think this is why this feels so much more in line with the the characters that we know and love yeah in that area that's that's a that's a cool insight it was sad to me watching this how much time they spend developing sinclair and katherine sakai knowing what comes you know and and through no fault of you know anyone or whatever but it's just like and i think i feel like we talked about this even when it happened but it's like i i wanted to see that relationship yeah play out but you know what though i i think there's a piece where in your head you it's almost like crusade like you can see where it's going and you can appreciate that and you're just sad that it gets cut short you know he was talking about foreshadowing and we're gonna come in a.
[28:29] And in that episode is the first time we see religious jakar and you and i we'll talk about it a lot more when we get there but we're like this is bs like this is him totally posturing as the whatever there's a part of me that asks knowing that part of jakar now here we are talking about the dominant religions where was he we didn't get the narn one did we but but it makes sense why we didn't that's why they had the whole assassin storyline let's occupy jakar over here with the assassin thing so we can save that religious piece for the by any means necessary storyline when he's going after the flower and stuff like that i don't think you needed to save it for them though well i really i don't think you needed to but it's still like yeah i i don't i still feel like that piece of his character was a p and jms if you're watching this please tell me i'm wrong it still feels to me like that was a change in the character as they continue to develop the characters they went on and that that even that stuff that we know that jacar goes on to become that maybe that was not necessarily in the original character bible of his particular arc we know he goes from bad to good and they did that on purpose but to make him be such a religious figure that may not have been i could be really wrong about this i fully admit that i would bet that it was part of the plan it just said it's just that but that change you're talking about that you and I both felt, I still feel it right now. And it just feels so.
[29:53] It was drastic. Here he is, you know, by Jaquan, what? Where's this been the whole, we'll talk about that in a couple of weeks. Let's back to this, you know, Brett, we, um, and this came up in, in our council chambers chat, but I'd pulled it also. So I alluded earlier that I have incontrovertible proof that we have time traveled back and influenced the story of Babylon five. And I shall present it here. You and I didn't disagree. In fact, I actively agreed, but you made a big point of saying that there was neither a parliament nor dreams in this. And so JMS responded to that criticism. Did he now? He did. And he said that a parliament is a gathering of officials, representatives, which matches the story in terms of representatives of different places and beliefs. And the dreams are the belief systems themselves. So he wouldn't have said that unless he knew that you had called him out on this is neither a parliament nor a dream so there you go naysayers there you go there you go because we know nobody questioned it between then and you and me first throwing that up a couple years ago they're all just like this is a great episode why would we question anything well also that was a time.
[31:04] Where we really didn't know the titles of episodes very well no we weren't we weren't doing that you know although now we're going to get in the chat everybody's gonna be like i knew the title of every episode as it aired when it very first aired on P10. Really now.
[31:19] And maybe you did but still come on i don't think i pulled out of the lurker's guide that uh i thought was great it says the atheist was not only first in line he was also the best dressed and smartest looking in the line as well oh sure and it goes on to say that he says uh our dominant belief is that all beliefs are respected so i think we read it the first time it's like it's just calling out our diversity it's this no what it's calling out is our respect and our inclusion for everyone yeah so i remember and i said this earlier my my thought was that where it was portraying all these other worlds as mono religious and it showed the diversity of humanity and again a part of that we're better together there's there's strength in our diversity our diversity is what makes us you know human what's what makes us good that's not necessarily what we got here because what what we heard from so much was the dominant religion right not the only religion but the dominant religion well okay what is the dominant religion here on earth right now okay what separates the number one from the number two religion as far as numbers go like if you're looking at pure dominance as far as numbers and spread go it's probably not a lot not much yeah we don't but it so again to say that what these other religions or what these other races are representing as a dominant religion still comes across still.
[32:45] Still, you can intimate, you can, you can interpret that as saying, well, it may not be the only religion on the world. This is the dominant one. This is the one that pretty much everybody kind of goes with not 50.1%, but this is the big one, right?
[33:02] Whereas with humanity, really, it's a lot of different religions and there really isn't that much space that separates them all, you know, but I like what you just said there, jeff the dominant belief on earth is that all beliefs can be respected i like that yeah that's a jms thing i can't take credit for that yeah i like that i like that so according to the internet, uh christianity is the most uh followed religion with about 2 billion believers islam follows behind at 1.8 billion see in those numbers that 0.2 million right there is or 0.2 billion is not much and probably followed after that by hindu i would imagine yep hinduism at just over a billion so it goes to a 200 million to a like 700 800 million drop yeah yeah it's still pretty significant numbers though you know so pretty significant numbers well brad i think we've reached the part of the show where we boil this thing all down and see what messages were in this one i did a little bit of looking um ron from our council chambers did and there were some other people who started it, he picked up the mantle and continued to work, but they were tracking our ratings for the various episodes. Yeah. And so I decided that might be fun to kind of look that up in season one. We were each giving each episode of Delta rating, and that was a combination of how much we enjoyed the episode and what message we found in it.
[34:29] Well, I, to be fair, I do think that what we were saying back then is how star Trek the message was. I think what we meant was just how sci-fi is like. How sci-fi is that message but that's that was also you and me still very very steeped as star trek podcasters yeah i was gonna say i don't think i mean we meant sci-fi but i don't think we meant sci-fi at that time i think we were saying the star trek thing what we what we now understand is not even now here's the thing we've always said and i i still believe that star trek doesn't own the market on messaging and sci-fi right right but they certainly have led the way for many many many.
[35:06] Years of using sci-fi as an allegory specifically sci-fi right so uh i kind of elevate those two side by side but i think also in our wisdom we later were like yeah it's not fair just to call it star trek because it's not film only it's one of my favorite things in the story of babylon 5 for the first time is the progression from deltas to white fear to white stars is uh like that i think that i think that is the central that's the central tracking mechanism of yours and my journey through babylon five is the progression from deltas all the way to white stars i want to say there's a ton of intentionality behind that but there was not just literally as we were getting ready to do the next season we're like hey do we should we change this thing yeah we should change this thing but for parliament of dreams i gave this episode out of five uh two deltas okay you brent gave it half a delta wow i must have not liked this episode as much as i thought i did yeah i don't think you did i because i i said i remember feeling very mediocre about it with some elements that lifted it interesting okay neither one of us really pulled a lot of messages outside of humans are super diverse and we're showing it off yeah did you find anything else in this one any other messages on the second watch not really not really i've i mean i don't Maybe I was just laughing so much in this episode. I will say one thing I did pull, right?
[36:30] Catherine Sakai comes in. And one thing that stood out to me more than anything else I've heard, I've thought about in this rewatch is how strong of a character Catherine Sakai is.
[36:41] She is her own person. By the way, also another ripoff from Deep Space Nine, Cassidy Yates and Catherine Sakai, pretty much the same character. Yeah, again, she didn't show up to like the fourth season though, so. I know. Well, that's what I mean. like that's where star trek's ripping them off but anyway katherine's a guy super super strong female character avanova super strong female character talia is a female character takashima for the one piece that we got her for super strong female character darina super strong female character lots of very strong female characters throughout the course of the show right but i remember going back to becoming superman and the story and i don't know why i'm fixated on this i I think because I see this now as a theme in his work, his story about Janine Melnitz from the real Ghostbusters when he was doing that. And he wanted Janine to really become a very strong character. And he made her this very...
[37:35] Strong. And then she got spayed. I think neutered would be the word I would say in general case, but she got spayed. She got whatever. And she had to put on the dress and go back to all of that. And JMS just was not happy with it at all. And I really like, this is a thing that is, it's so, and Natoth, Natoth comes in as a super strong character as well. Like this is a thing that is a JMS Hallmark, super strong female characters as they come in. I like that. I love that especially especially back in the 80s and 90s yeah yeah this time 94 like this is this is important stuff and lita dylan's pointing out lita lita lita goes on her own journey but certainly by the end she is a scary person yeah yeah it's kind of a meta message right of like here's the thing i when you were saying that i think i have one also because i didn't have anything coming into this but this was a fun episode because the people in the episode were having fun yeah like Like that scene with the Centauri thing, like, you know, Ivanova cracking up and Londo going nuts and throwing stuff at Sinclair. They were having a blast. They threw the bread at Sinclair's head.
[38:47] Everybody's cute. I mean, so, and even Jakar, right? Like he's got this assassin coming after him and he's dropping. Oh, yes. Look at all. When he does it, like every Natath, every single person had a blast. Past yeah putting this together you and i recently watched an episode of stargate and we had that same impression like everybody was having fun in the writer's room they were just being ridiculous and throwing some stuff out and it's like this and it all worked it all worked perfectly yeah we were in it because they were in it and so like the meta message i'm pulling out of this one is like if you're gonna do a thing do the thing like get in it and have a good time yeah hopefully Hopefully that's picked up from our viewers in our show because we have a whole lot of fun on the show, Jeff. We do. We do. We really do. We have a lot of fun. Let's see if we have fun with this one. This is one of our favorite parts of the shows that we put together. And so when we create the 100% completely accurate definitive rating of the Babylon 5 seasons, we're doing season one. Obviously here. We have our top five or top four. We're going to be rounding out our top five this week. In fourth place, we have Soul Hunter. Three is Infection. Number two, Midnight on the Firing Lion and in the top spot, Born to the Purple. Brent, it falls onto you, my friend.
[40:07] Where is Parliament of Dreams going to land on this one? Well, I have a question, Jeff. Okay. I've got a pretty good idea where I'm going to land this right now. Do you happen to have at your fingertips clips our original season one ranking from babylon five for the first time i do not but i can get to it relatively quickly okay you want to know where parliament of dreams landed i want to know i also want to know where born to the purple midnight on the firing line landed as well because because our top our top four right now are born to the purple midnight firing line infection and soul hunter this will be above infection and soul hunter for the record i'm just curious where these three landed in in conjunction to each other so we included the gathering in this ranking. So we have 23 episodes. Soul Hunter was 23.
[40:47] Infection was 22. Midnight on the Firing Line was 16. Born to the Purple, 15. Parliament of Dreams, 13. So really, Parliament of Dreams, Born to the Purple, Midnight on the Firing Line, Infection, Soul Hunter is our top five from here. Well, Jeff, I have to tell you, we are going to keep that same order. This is our new number one episode of the season this is our new number one episode this one and we're going to be in that order uh that's that's where this is going to land definitively it just says we were right the first time around exactly because why we're definitive we're accurate we're 100 correct like we're proving it out with this second viewing right like it's it's all good well cool new new number one yes that's going to wrap us up for parliament of dreams next week brent we're going to watch mind war for the second time. Do you remember what you predicted mind war was going to be about? I do. I do. In fact, this one was real easy. I said that if mind war was not about Psycor and the telepaths, I was going to be done with the show because it had to be about those two things. One of those two things. And I agree with you for my prediction. I'm like, yes, It has to be. And if it's anything else, then it's dumb.
[42:05] Were we right? Were we wrong? How close did we get? Find out right here next week. Thanks for joining us as we watch this incredible episode for the second time. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you're watching us. Like us. Rate us. Do all of those different things that you do on YouTube and the podcasting apps that you're listening to. We appreciate it very much. The thing we appreciate the most though, is when you share this show with somebody else. This has been a blast for Brent and myself. I think our council chambers are having a good time. Everybody watching and listening is having a good time. Let's bring more people in to this second time viewing. So until next time, I'm going to actually, yes, Brent, what is up? A bodyguard, you say? I need somebody in about two hours, really. Time's getting kind of tight. All right. You think this guy's going to do? Oh, yeah.
[43:06] Music.
