Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Akin, and I am the one who was,
Brent: And I'm Brent Allen and I am the one who will be.
Jeff: and we're watching Babylon five for the first time. For you, the one who is,
Brent: Yes, that's right. Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters who have decided to watch this show 30 years too late. And we're applying that analytical lens we've gained to Star Trek podcasters. I. Right here at Tab Babylon five, where we're searching out the meanings, the messages, mirrors to society, the, the, the hope for a better future.
But we're trying to figure out also how Babylon five is delivering that message in its own unique way.
Jeff: Those unique Babylon five messages, not Star Trek messages, because this is not a Star Trek podcast. And to keep us on task to keep us focused on Babylon five. We play the rule of three. This is a game that limits us to no more than three references to Star Trek per episode. That's it. Three one of those trades.
No substitutions. Exchanges or refund.
Brent: And Jeff, if we make one of those references, the folks out there are going to hear,
Jeff: Their favorite sound.
Brent: come on Jeff, when I do this.
Jeff: Just hit the button, right? You're like, no, no. Funny
Brent: you, you know what's actually really funny is me doing this is a Star Trek reference.
Jeff: It is, isn't
Brent: This is a Star Trek reference to get the buzz.
Jeff: I don't think it only, I think it only counts for audio once, so
Brent: Yeah, I don't, here's a, here's a, I'm, I'm curious. I I, you know, we said right before we came on, we're gonna try to limit the amount of editing you're
Jeff: we go.
Brent: That entire thing only lands if you're watching the YouTube version of this show. Because if you're listening to that on audio, like you're just listening to the podcast app later, you're going, what the heck is Brent doing?
I don't understand.
Jeff: I just, where's Get to the stuff
Brent: What was he doing? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay. I don't like hearing that noise, so please stop doing it.
Jeff: It doesn't count. I'm just gonna hit it 'cause it's fun.
Brent: Right. Well, listen, we do that because we are trying to keep those references from slipping in, and we only get three for the entire show. That's between the two of us. That's not each like it used to be.
Jeff: Right?
Brent: Now, along with that game, there is another game we like to play at the end of the show where we make a prediction about what next week's episode is gonna be about based on title alone.
Jeff, you know what? I wonder
Jeff: What's up?
Brent: if we were to go back through the entire show, we're not gonna do this and actually like, keep track of the predictions and like how close we were. Like score it, you know, score the percentage. I wonder where we would be. My, my guess is we're actually probably way more even than we might think.
Jeff: I'm willing to bet that in red sector, which is in our discord, which you can access through our Patreon, patreon.com/babylon five first, number five, the word first. I'm willing to bet someone has done this already and not shared it with us. 'cause we have counting this five more episodes. Um, so they're probably keeping that.
But you know what? If they haven't, I just said it and I am positive that there is someone out in the community who is now diving through and doing that. If you do it, share it with us. We'll make sure the world sees it and you get all the credit,
Brent: God bless you in your endeavors 'cause Wow.
Jeff: and while you're at it, check the YouTube and the audio just to be sure that helps the download numbers and stuff.
Also, we just want to, you know, we want an accurate, accurate accounting.
Brent: right, right. So we play that game, but there's a third game we like to play in the show 'cause we like games. And that game happens right now. And we call that game.
Jeff: Time to pay the piper.
Brent: And this is the part where we look back at our prediction from last week to see how close we were. So Jeff, what did you say This episode, the fall of Sari Prime was gonna be about.
Jeff: I said the NAR and the dra. The drowsy.
Brent: Dsy the Dsy Boy. Come
Jeff: Apparently I Tookie too. Look at that.
Brent: The Dsy. Hey, just for the record, if you say it that way, uh, DSY has, uh, two a's in it.
Jeff: Oh, okay.
Brent: It's Dsy. Dsy, yeah. Two a's,
Jeff: The narran and the drowsy are gonna be blasting Sari Prime Londo is gonna be named Emperor and he will order a full assault on the alliance.
Brent: uh, Jeff, you, you said three pieces there. You got two of them correct. And one of them wrong. So I'm gonna give you 66% on this one.
Jeff: I love your math. What did you guess?
Brent: Well, I said that Sari Prime was gonna be attacked, um, and that this would be like an active, like pew, pew, pew type episode. Where the drowsy, the drowsy, the ri, and the, the nerds, the nerds. Land on Sari Prime and take over the planet, but they're gonna be fighting amongst themselves to see who actually gets control of the planet.
And now that Sheridan knows that the Sari actually were not responsible for the shipping lane attacks, he's gotta come to their rescue and try to restore the Interstellar Alliance. Well,
Jeff: And not a lot of that actually happened in this
Brent: sari Prime was attacked.
Jeff: We got sent entire prime attacked. We got Sheridan, um,
Brent: Nope,
Jeff: going onto the planet. He went onto the planet, Sheridan went onto the
Brent: he did. That is true.
Jeff: See, we got a little bit of that, but that's, that's about it. I'm gonna give this one a, I like the thirds piece. So 33.33.
Brent: like 15. But
Jeff: Yeah. I was thinking more
Brent: grade me, so,
Jeff: I was thinking more like 0.03, but I'll call it a 0.33. I'm feeling generous. It's just math. I don't do math, so it's all good. But if you're confused at all about what we're talking about, because you haven't watched this episode like ever, which would be weird. Um, but that's cool if you're here listening to us or if it's been a long time since you've watched it.
Brent, can you tell us about the fall of Centauri Prime?
Brent: Fire rains down on Centauri Prime, the nar, the Draz and the RI are pummeling those dirty, rotten, no good. Sari back to the stone. Age down on the planet, Londo and Jaar are getting rocked. Londo has to see the regent. He finds them and the regent notes that this attack is beginning to move away from the capitol.
So they meaning the survivors should be safe for the time being, which is fine because the regent needs to make some introductions. Londo meet DRock. DRock meet Londo. We get a much needed info dump saying that Thera worthy allies of the shadows when their homes Zaha doom exploded. They had nowhere to go, but then they remembered the sari.
They remembered Londo and they remembered Londo blowing up an entire island full of their shadow masters. And they have come as the shadow of shadows to fulfill their masters' work. They've planted similar bombs all over the planet, and unless Londo does exactly what they want, they're gonna do to the Sari.
What Londo did to them and what do they want for, and what do they want Londo to do? Well, first they want him to get his little eyeball friend, his keeper, and then they want him to suit up and become the puppet emperor. And then they want him to officially withdraw Sari Prime from the Alliance, declare that they will bear their burdens alone, cutting them off from the galactic community.
And they will also require him to declare Sheridan himself as persona non grata on Sari Prime. But here's the catch. All of this is really just the public face of it all. The DRock and the keepers don't really care what Londo does in private or why he does it just so long as he does what they want him to do,
which admittedly causes a couple of confusing scenes when Londo has to put on an act where he's super bossy and really, really mean to share it. And, but also it gives us a great scene in which londo Hmm. But also it gives us a great scene in which Londo has to beg the drop, not to kill the lin in Lanier, who are still stuck on a white star.
And later he actually gives safe passage to Sheridan, de Lin, and Jaar to get off planet. And speaking of Jaar before gets his keeper. He and Jaar have a rather touching heart to heart. A goodbye conversation releases Jaar from being his personal bodyguard. He notes that Jaar may hear about Lando doing strange things in the future as an emperor.
Doesn't really expound on why, because Jaar interrupts him. But also Lando laments the ironic change in his fortune. Now that he has so much power, he has no choices anymore. Jaar ultimately forgives Londo. So with all of that, Sheridan, deland, Jaar and Veer departs Ari Prime for Babylon. Five. Londo does a solo walk to his new palace and back on Babylon five.
Sheridan is taking a look at the shadow devices that Franklin and Lida brought back from the last episode. Aldi wonders if there might actually be some of that cool tech left on the Lon home world that they could use. Alta says that no human's gonna be allowed to set foot on that planet for about a million years.
It seems that things have somewhat returned to normal on Babylon five, but Delin wonders as the episode closes. What has been lost in the process? Jeff, what'd you think of this episode? The fall of Centauri Prime?
Jeff: Dude, this episode was such a downer and I, and I say that in the kindest, most. Praising amazing way. Like this episode was a bummer and it was sad and it was perfect. Like just so good. Londo at the center of the universe again. Here he is, and we get a great episode out of it. I saw questions about the drop.
Um, I have such a better understanding, but there's some things that just don't quite add up for me with them a little bit, but nothing big. I just wanna know more about 'em really, and understand like why are, why are they, um, allied with the shadows or were they, and how long has that alliance gone on?
And what really is their plan? What work are they gonna be doing? Stuff like that. But like, um, what was the episode that we saw? The drop, the first, um, lines of communication.
Brent: The one where we, where we saw them for the first time, I'm not sure, but I re I remember the episode. I just don't, couldn't tell you the title of it off the top of my head.
Jeff: So like he says, dra, and I'm just like, this isn't the, I mean ho So either, and I'm not clear on this, uh, either DRA is just this big term for the allies and minions of the shadows, or, uh, they did that dra in lines of, I mean, I think it's lines of communication, but they did that guy and they're like, oh no, never again.
This was awful and dumb and we're not gonna, either way, I'm totally good with the choice. Like, this was good, but londo, the flashbacks, there were a lot of flashbacks in this episode, and Babylon five uses flashbacks pretty sparingly. And generally when it uses them, it's pretty powerful. Um, but to me, this like the flashbacks told the story that you and I have been talking about, you know, for.
Seasons Now, you know how he was so full of life. We got the Parliament of Dreams scene with him. We got born to the purple stuff with him, and then, and then here he is. But the resolution to this whole thing, right when Sheridan lays it all out and, uh, demands the reparations and stuff, and we'll talk about this more, but I just get really strong Treaty of Versailles, uh, vibes from this whole thing.
And if you're not a student of history, um, gosh, almost like more than a hundred year old history at this point. Just pretty wild. But, uh, yeah, things didn't go well because of that treaty. Uh, some stuff happened as a result of it. So, um, pretty sure that was a pretty intentional message. But one piece that I, I, I, I want to share here, and then we can talk about more if we want, but that final scene, like the way the episode closed out, Londo sitting on the throne.
In the dark alone. You, Brent, have shared some of your mental health journey and your experience with depression here on the podcast, and you've made a serious and a real impact on a lot of people. People have reached out, you've, you've inspired people, uh, to address their, their mental health. Um, I am one of those people and, uh, I have not really shared a lot of my experience.
There was a period of time where I wasn't even very active on our discord or with our Patreon, um, community. But about a year ago, I was diagnosed with depression and, um, it's still a very real thing in my life as, as it is. And having worked with this and lived with it for, for over a year now, um, I don't think I ever felt so seen and understood as I did in that scene.
Right. Lon Emperor Londo, MAL II on the Throne. Alone and in the dark like that. Oh yeah.
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: What about you? What about you?
Brent: I, I, in no way. I just wanna address that if I may one. Thank you so much for sharing that piece. Um, I, I've been privy to a lot of that just behind the scenes, uh, 'cause the nature of our relationship. Um, and I've, I've never wanted to tell your story for you, you know, so, uh, thank you for, for sharing that.
Um, and, uh, anybody out there who thinks they might be struggling or just has any questions, we certainly encourage you to reach out. And I will just say for myself one more time, I'm not gonna speak for Jeff. Uh, for me, it took, uh, it took needing a stranger. I needed a str, somebody who didn't know me, somebody who didn't live in my town that I could talk to.
And if I can be that stranger for you, if that's what you need, please feel free to reach out. My dms are open. Uh, the show's dms are open. Shoot an email, something, uh, would love to just, I, I can, I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you what happened with me. And what my story is, is,
Jeff: I'm happy to be there as well. I, I've seen the impact that you've made on other people, and I'm still early in my journey and I'm not comfortable with a lot of stuff, and I'm not ready to share my whole story, but I'm always happy to be an ear and to share what I am comfortable with and, and just to connect, um, makes a big difference.
So we're, we're both here for you.
Brent: That said, uh, I, and I di I didn't connect that scene to it at all. And now that you say that, I'm like, yeah, I, that's exactly what it feel feels like, uh, to me as well, is you're on this throne, like you have all this stuff going on and you are just there by yourself and it sucks. Like, I
Jeff: I mean, I'm gonna, I'm gonna dive in just a little, this is a real pivot from the, the format, but I mean, I really, it was, um, gosh, we were middle of season three, I think, in, in this journey for stuff. And it was great. Like we were successful. Our community was, was was awesome. We were watching amazing episodes except for one, but really amazing.
Like, everything was really good. And I, and I remember having a moment, we got done recording where it was awesome. Like, I felt so good about our episode, but the minute I hit hit leave studio, what we do in our tool here, like everything just flushed out of me and I was just like, I, whatever, whatever, man.
And, and just to be like, we, we were at such a peak. Our relationship and then this community's relationship. And I, and I felt like I didn't exist, uh, in that whole thing. And that's the thing. I still like, it's still there, it's still a present thing for me, but it was at its peak then it's, it is that like I, and, and the message I, I, I'm jumping ahead.
We'll get to your thoughts. I apologize, but we'll talk about it more. But the whole thing of like, I have all the power in the world and no options. No choices. And it's like, God, just this episode was, was an episode that was pointed directly at a lot of us, I think. Okay. Your turn. Sorry.
Brent: amazing. I I can't wait to hear you dive into that because that, it's just not where I was with this episode. And I really wanna hear where you are with this episode and dive into that a little bit more. Anyway, where was I? Um, I found this to be a very thought provoking episode. Uh, I found it a very interesting, here's my favorite word for the show, Jeff Juxtaposition, viewing Londo from the first few seasons that we got in those little flashback sequences to viewing Lando.
Now, just when you think he's getting it all together, you know, he's, he's been on this amazing journey. Uh, awful journey. Awful, awful journey. Nobody should ever go on. But he is been on this journey, and he's, he's coming on the other side of it. Now. The world seems to be his oyster, you know, it's all, it's all gonna come.
And he realizes, kind of like what he said in the first, he's like, I don't really want all of this, you know? Um, and he doesn't want to do the emperor thing. You can definitely tell that. Uh, but he's gonna go, and now this is the bed he's made, and this is the Betty. He asked the lion. And, uh, just as he is getting it all together, he now has to walk willingly to the slaughter.
Now, I am not willing to call this a Messiah Christ walk type of deal for Londo because this is the mess he made. And like I said, he now has to deal with it. Uh, I did, I did think that it was incredibly nice seeing Jaar say the words, I forgive you. You know, my people can't, we're never gonna forgive your people.
That cannot happen. But as for me and you, I forgive you. And I remembered back when, um, Delaine had to go apologize to Jaar and said, we knew and we didn't do anything to stop it. And, and she asked, will you forgive me? And he said, not yet. I forget. I forget what his exact words are. He is like that. That day will come.
Today is not that day though. He needed time to process it and to see Jaar as a character, be able to process it, not just for Dilin, but for Lando, the perpetrator of this whole thing. Uh, I thought it was, um,
I, I, I thought it was phenomenal. Um,
I think I was right in my prediction though, Jeff. I, I know you didn't score me on this one, but I, it was gonna be a lot of pew, pew, pew, pew, pew. And there was a lot of pew, pew, pew, pew, pew. Uh, and I'm not saying stinky pew, I'm just, you know, shooting guns. Except it was all talking. This episode was not action oriented.
This episode was all talk, and it was a lot of, uh, but everything that they were talking was like firing weapons, you know what I mean? Like, everything was so pointed in this episode that, that it was, it was, uh, it, it was amazing. So, um, Jeff, I have, I have no idea where to begin with you on this one, in this episode.
Where, where do you wanna go first? There's, there's, obviously, there's the Lando and Kar stuff. There's Lando in the regent, the, the Dra Londo, uh, in his opening speeches, emperor Lando and Sheridan, um, there at the end. Uh, so there's quite a bit. So where, where do you wanna go?
Jeff: Well, I wanna, I wanna respond to one thing in your, your initial piece, and then I think we, let's talk about some of the lighter stuff first. Um, and go from there. But I think that you talked about Londo walking to his inauguration, um,
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: alone and not ready to assign like a Christ or Messiah type thing.
It made me think of CCE and the High Sparrow, the faith militant in Game of Thrones.
Brent: You just didn't have the lady with the bell walking behind her going, shame, shame.
Jeff: who ended up in Ted Lasso, by the way.
Brent: Yes, she did.
Jeff: which, uh, which is super cool. But yeah, like, it, it's, it's, it really rang of that for me. Like he was, she wasn't screaming shame, but he was oozing it, you know, like he, he knows exactly where he is, why he's there, and he's gonna play the part.
Oh, heavy stuff.
Brent: And he's, it, it's so weird. Like he's doing this to say like, this is still who Londo is. Okay. We're here. Wait, I think we now have to talk about it. Londo has a thousand, what has Londo always been for, in spite of everything else. Londo has always been for his people saving his people, propping his people up.
Right? He has now put his people into a predicament where their lives are on the line. Every single one of'em, their lives are on the line. And in order to save them, he has to do all of the, I mean, the Jeff, this is, this is where we need a superhero. We need Jack Bauer. We need, we need somebody to come in and save Londo, you know, because he's, he's doing something.
That he doesn't really want to be. Oh, this is, wasn't this like a Fast and the Furious movie?
Jeff: I probably,
Brent: I think it was where the, the hero has to go do something. He has to pretend to be a bad guy in order to save people. And they don't understand why he's doing it, but that's why they're doing it. Um, so he has to go do all this to save the tari so they're not just ultimately blown up,
Jeff: yeah.
Brent: you know, and, and hopefully Sheridan and some other people are gonna get a clue one day and be able to come and, and free them from this deal.
And we saw that in War Without End, where Longo's whole cry to Sheridan was to save my people,
Jeff: Yep.
Brent: get them out of this. Because the, the, the DRock, over 17 years, I think it was 17, 18 years, they never allowed the country to be rebuilt. Think about it. They're getting bombed today.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: Right? That country is still jacked up almost 20 years down the road.
Jeff: fires burning.
Brent: Exactly like. If they haven't allowed the country to recover or begin to recover, and I'm not saying 15 years is enough time to do it all for the damage that happened, but I mean, come on.
Jeff: Yeah, I think it's hard. 'cause the Sheridan thing really comes to mind where he was there, he saw this, but also he knew it was far in the future. He can't know. This is the thing that leads to that, but, but I, but there's still just this whole thing of like, he should at least be asking some questions, you know, or something I like,
Brent: Something about this seems familiar, like he should be, look. Hmm.
Jeff: You know, we would talk about, Londo having to, you know, be the hero but become the villain. I'm on Game of Thrones references right now, but it makes me think of Early Game of Thrones and John Snow and that Wildling girl where like he had to build the distance and make them, you know, he had to go back and, you know, be a, be a knight's watchman and all that stuff.
And so he's like, I love you so much, but I'm going to make you want to kill me 'cause I have to, to save you.
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: And then she died anyway.
Brent: Yeah. And then they got married in real life.
Jeff: Yeah. Which is pretty cool. That's a fun, yeah, I like that.
Brent: Yeah. Uh, speaking of fun though, if, we'll, if we said we wanna go light first, let's go light. Uh, fun note. Did you see who played the drop?
Jeff: No, I didn't actually notice
Brent: I'm gonna see if you know who this person is. Wayne Alexander
Jeff: Lian played Lian, Telon,
Brent: Sebastian.
Jeff: Sebastian, like the voice of all the really. You know what? I could, okay, there's the scene where, um, oh, we're mixing stuff up like crazy here. But there's the scene where Longo's like, oh my gosh, you can't kill Delen. And, uh, DRock doesn't say anything. He just kinda goes, that's a total Wayne Alexander move.
Brent: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff: Good. I see. I,
Brent: Is. Alright. Here's my question, and I wanna know this, I wanna know this from the fans out there. It's, it's time to ask this question. Is Wayne Alexander the Jeffrey Combs of Babylon five?
Jeff: it's a valid question
Brent: And if you understand that reference, we can be best friends
Jeff: right? Because it is ev every character he plays is a pivotal character
Brent: so different from every other character he's done. You, I, I just want to note you just said that Sebastian, and comes the inquisitor is pivotal. I just wanna point that out.
Jeff: Most of the characters he plays were Pivotal. I know people love the episode. I still don't, I
Brent: Okay. So what was your reaction when he opens up his chest and this thing starts peeling off of his chest? And comes out and then drops to the floor and tentacles come out and shoots up the side of Londo.
Jeff: I have so many questions. So that whole abduction thing wasn't putting the control the keeper inside of him.
Brent: Yeah. What was that whole
Jeff: else. Yeah.
Brent: What was that whole thing? I have no idea what that was about.
Jeff: like was it, was it putting something in him to like, here, here's the Keeper's food store, or make his bed for him inside. Like what
Brent: Yeah. Was it the un the the part, um, that he attaches to from the outside? Like, I, I have, I, 'cause what it looked like they were dropping into his mouth was a bug. It looked it, Jeff, I'm gonna burn a second one. Can I do it? It looked it from wrath of con, it looked like that little thing that went up into Chekhov's ear.
Jeff: the Seti eel.
Brent: Yeah. It looked like that. Only way bigger. They
Jeff: It
Brent: were dropping into his, into his, into his mouth.
Jeff: But yeah, so he's, dude's got his like chest beared, and I'm literally like, is he gonna, like, are we gonna get some breastfeeding? Go like, what is hap? And then he starts ripping the thing off.
Brent: It just rips the thing off.
Jeff: I, I, I had no idea until I kind of got it. And you could almost see on the prop, there was this little eye kind of, and then I'm like, there's the key, there's the thing, what?
And then immediately I'm like, what the.
Brent: so is the keeper a part of the dra and the keepers are actually dra, like they're, they're like, is this an eyeball, like Ja car's eyeball that like you can just pop out and go over there and see, and while, while they call it a keeper, it's actually still part of the drop or do the drop, like, are the, is it like a symbiotic relationship between them and the drop, like the drop or the incubators of these things and he pulls 'em off?
Is it like, how many, how many of those eyeballs does he have on his chest there
Jeff: I, I was looking for that. Like are there other plates on him that look like that? I think it's literally that it's an extension of, so now that drop is in an on, which means you just kill the dude. Ah, that's a, yeah. We will get there, I'm sure at some point how to get rid of him, but, um,
Brent: Well, but then, because then it also does, I mean, it does now, this is the trope, this is the sci-fi trope. Whenever you put a symbiote of something that once you separate 'em, and this is how the region died, like you're dead as soon as you separate him. I mean,
Jeff: But we did see way back with Captain Jack that you have to completely separate it for them to die. 'cause they, he cut it and it grew back Captain Jack on Mars,
Brent: remember Captain Jack
Jeff: I. So he had to blow himself up to kill himself. He blew up that train car.
Brent: he had a keeper.
Jeff: yeah, that was the whole, the whole point with him,
Brent: I, I'm so vague on that.
Jeff: all that
Brent: How many, how long ago was that?
Jeff: that's a, a full season ago. More than a
Brent: I, I 100% remember Captain Jack, I remember him blowing himself up. I remember him not being what he was supposed to be. I just don't remember
Jeff: there was that, that, that number one lady, right. And like, he kept trying to get, you know, I gotta, I gotta go talk to number one. I gotta talk to number one. And he was sweating and being weird and giving hints to Franklin about where his daughter was, including the address, which was a huge mistake, uh, to give Franklin that kind of information.
But, uh, and then, and then,
Brent: Yeah. You, you never give that man a break, dude.
Jeff: I do. And he, but that was, that was, but he didn't know. Captain Jack didn't know, but, uh, In hindsight, that's there's, I'm sure there's a comic book series that you have to be a certain
Brent: Look, since Franklin went on Walkabout, Franklin's been a, a, an upstanding dude.
Jeff: He has been totally, but yeah, captain Jack was the whole point of Captain Jack. 'cause he had a keeper on him. Franklin was able to see what it was, get some samples, do some stuff, but it grew like he cut part of it or something like that. He tried, but it just grew, grew back and it was like, there's no way away from this keeper outside of just blowing
Brent: Blowing yourself up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I, I vaguely remember that. So, okay. Anyway.
Jeff: You're like, I, all that Mars number one, resistance, whatever stuff y out
Brent: Well, because, okay. But what, ultimately what happened out of it?
Jeff: not much. Oh, well, here's what happened. Lita got to go on to Mars after they took over some bases and, um, activate the, the peeps, the, the, the popsicles.
Brent: Yep. It was, it was a part of the larger war is, is it wasn't, you know, um, people are firing up their keywords. How dare you. That was so important without that. Okay, guys, come on.
Jeff: Yeah, it was, it was super important. I'm sure it was just like the, how important the telepaths were in the shadow war.
Brent: Here's, here's my word. It's still our first watch.
Jeff: I'm sure we're gonna see so much more. But yeah, so pretty wild. And, and, and I think I've got some different understandings we talked about, I think a little bit last week, but the keeper in, like what it does
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: it works and, and so it, it sounds like it's not necessarily controlling, it's more of like, it feeds information and can tattle, um, if things go wrong.
And the tattling is a big deal because they planted fusion bombs throughout the entire planet.
Brent: Dude that is, I mean, they come back and they're like, we remembered you. We liked you and we're going to now use, you did that and we've Yeah, and we're gonna do to you what you did to our guys. And like, I, I just remember feeling ferlando in, in that moment and that whole deal, like they've got him like, Londo is, Londo cannot win.
Here. He is a thousand percent trapped. There is no way out for him unless he just says, you know what? Better to, if, if you blow everybody up, you blow everybody up. But we're not gonna do this. Like, he just marks that ground and lets them do it then. That's not good. I mean, if you're, okay, let me ask you this question.
If you're londo and you're in that position, do you just say, no, I'm, we're not going to to go through this? Or do you capitulate and go along with it just long just to try to buy yourself more time to see if you can't get out of the situation, what do you do?
Jeff: that's an impossible question.
Brent: in an impossible situation, like you're not getting out of this situation.
Jeff: It's a total, um, It's a Lady Marella thing, right? When she, when Major Barrett came on and she was, he's like, well, I had no choice. And she's like, that's something that people who've already made their decisions say to justify their decision.
Brent: Jeff. Jeff. Okay. Lady Marola gave Londo three things.
Jeff: Uhhuh,
Brent: What were they? Three things for his redemption.
Jeff: you must save the eye. That does not see you
Brent: that that?
Jeff: oh, maybe it might be the little keeper guy.
Brent: Probably not.
Jeff: You must not kill the one who was already dead.
Brent: Who is that?
Jeff: I think we decided that was Sheridan, a war without end.
Brent: Okay.
Jeff: Um, 'cause he was gonna kill him, but he didn't kill him, so he let him go back, which let the stuff happen.
And the one that I think we just witnessed,
Brent: Okay.
Jeff: you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear knowing that it will destroy you.
Brent: Hmm.
Jeff: I feel like that's what just happened.
Brent: And, and don't do what with the eye that doesn't see what now?
Jeff: Uh, don't, uh, don't kill the eye. That does not see,
Brent: No.
Jeff: or do not destroy the eye. That does
Brent: Do not destroy the eye. That
Jeff: I closed, I closed my document that I wrote about. Sorry.
Brent: The keeper sees. So I don't think it could be That
Jeff: Yeah. You know, I pull it up again here. Yeah. You must save the eye. That does not see.
Brent: Save the eye. That does not say, I think that's gotta be jaar, right?
Jeff: so too. Yeah.
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: Which happened beautifully in very Longo mal and right here, real forgiveness between the, the two of them.
Brent: right. Hmm. Solando, is he, is he living out his redemption?
Jeff: I think he is, he's, he's, he's given himself up,
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: sacrificing himself for the greater 'cause. You're right. He could say, you know what? Go fly a kite. Drop and go. He literally was holding the detonator button. He could have blown the whole planet up at that point. Problem solved. Rocker gone. The centara are gone.
There's peace throughout the galaxy, but, but Longo's number one, you said earlier, his number one is the centara people.
Brent: Yeah. And, and I mean, it's his people. Okay, fine. Rightly so. Um, hopefully we can make them, hopefully veer will make them a better people in his emperorship,
Jeff: Poor vere, vere got beat up a little bit in this one.
Brent: but here's, so here's the thing. So what happens after Londo dies? The rocker's still around. Do they just go away? Because Longo's dead now,
Jeff: I don't think so. And this is the question. 'cause what we know in War Without End is that Lao's gonna die at Kars hand as Jcar will die at Lao's hand, vere will emerge from the curtains and take the crown or the crest or the whatever. Is Vere gonna get installed with a keeper? Like does, is this just what happens now?
Brent: For the sari from now on, I, I, I think veer has to be the, the, the re the redeeming emperor for the, for the Sari folk. I think. I don't our, I mean, clearly we're not gonna get Vera's story. And, uh, maybe that's one of the movies. That'd be cool.
Jeff: That would be cool.
Brent: be cool if that was one of the movies. Um,
Jeff: But I think that, you know, one of the things that confuses me with Ara is they talked about two things. Uh, one, I talked about a lot of things, but two things here. One was that Centara Prime is the perfect place for them to continue their work. I.
Brent: yeah,
Jeff: does that work and how long does it last?
Brent: so I, I think very clear that their work is sowing discord among the galaxy and keeping wars fighting and centara is, is is the best way to make that happen. Keep the sari fighting people, keep them from gelling, uh, the, the galactic universe together. Um, have them continue to sow, sow discord among, among the galaxies.
Jeff: Yeah, that makes
Brent: Um, I think that's, you know, I like what all did the Dr did the Thera make Londo do over the course of his emperorship of. Let's just say 17 years,
Jeff: Well, what we know in his
Brent: or maybe 15, because the, the, the war without End was two years ago, so let's just call it 15. Like,
Jeff: We know from his severed dream style speech where he's just holographically projected into the night sky. Dude, that was, that was the
Brent: yeah,
Jeff: But we know is he's like, he's declaring them isolationist, but in doing that, completely attacking the alliance. And Sheridan specifically
Brent: yeah,
Jeff: laid it right at his feet, so that makes sense.
I
Brent: I mean, he went, he, I mean, yeah, Londo went full AFAs in that. You don't know what that means yet.
Jeff: I don't, but it sounds exactly.
Brent: Sounds amazing. Um,
Jeff: But the other thing they said was that they're looking for a home world, and that's the same thing. Thera back in line lines of communication said, we're just looking for a home world. We're looking, our place got blowed up, so we're
Brent: That's what the Telepaths are looking for. They're just looking for a home world.
Jeff: know what struck me with that? Apparently Thera were used as weapons. They were servants of the shadows. We've been told repeatedly in this season, narratively, even though we never actually saw it, that the telepaths were actually used as weapons by the VOR lawns. I. Now after everything's done, they're kinda left floating and looking for their own home worlds and identities.
I love that identity piece where, uh, you knowland, who are you? And he's like, who are we? We are the shadows of shadows. Like they don't even know who they are
Brent: yeah, yeah. They're just there to do the work of their former masters,
Jeff: Blindly not knowing if they still need to do it or not, but it's all they know.
Brent: yeah. So this whole thing is all about getting revenge on Londo at
Jeff: Yep.
Pretty much
Brent: the end of the
Jeff: and Yeah, I was gonna say in the
Brent: about getting a revenge in lawn. Yeah. Um, and it's his price to pay. Um, you know, and so I have the question.
Can, you can with Londo and his, redemption. Okay. We, this has been the theme of like this show for seasons now and this episode, like there's the very long night of Lado Malaria, the fall of Sin, entire Prime. These are the two episodes that this really comes into full relief. It asks, I think it asks the question, uh, can Londo be redeemed and still have to pay the consequences of his actions? I think that's exactly what we're seeing is Londo is ha like, like he can be forgiven. You can be forgiven. You still have to face the consequences. There's still fallout. Like, I'm not gonna hold you respon, like, I'm not going to, to, to keep this wall built up between us because of unforgiveness. Kar says, right, but you.
You still made the bed, you still gotta lay in it. Like that's, you know, uh, you gotta go through those pieces. I think that's a, an interesting,
Jeff: Well. It's the thing, you know, and it's the thing we, I, I think is misunderstood. We've talked about forgiveness quite a bit on this, on this show, but I think it's, there's a misunderstanding that forgiveness means that you're accepting the behavior or, or what happened, but what it really means is you're just not giving it negative energy anymore.
Um, you know, and so like in, in my head there's a, the, the version of this that I would love to see, we've got four episodes left. And I would love in two of those four episodes just for someone probably Ghislaine, 'cause she's the one who hugged Londo on his way out. But someone just to be like, I sure hope things are going okay for him.
Like, you know, keep him in the conversation and talk about him. 'cause they don't have ill will towards him. He is rightly be justice is being served right. Like he's, he's facing the consequences for, maybe it's not justice, but consequences are being, uh, acted out for, for what he did. But they're not giving it negative energy.
They can still care about him, they can still want to connect and help. Sheridan wanted to, you know, at the end when he is
Brent: Even at the end, after all the, after the, you're gonna make reparations, you're gonna do this. And Sheridan is the bad guy. Hey dude. Okay. Uh, we're cool. Um, but I gotta get you off here. 'cause bad stuff's gonna happen if I don't. Yeah.
Jeff: Yeah, that's, that's the magic of forgiveness right there. Mm-hmm.
Brent: and they seem, they seem like Sheridan and Delin and those guys, like, they seem to understand that about Londo.
Like he could have come have a normal conversation. Like Yeah. That was just the public face I had to put on. Let's have this real conversation here, you
Jeff: Like they should have done instead of the big courtroom farce they put together,
Brent: like they should have done for Londo. Exactly. Exactly. Um, uh, Sheridan comes in and he's begging Londo Londo with a keeper to, to go save Delin. Londo wants to do like, like Londo himself wants to go do it, and Londo just turns into the Godfather at that point. Uh, alright, I'll do it. But understand, I may come asking you for a favor one day. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jeff: Sheridan's like, whatever.
Brent: Right, right,
Jeff: of the Interstellar Alliance dude. What are you gonna do? We, we've beat you twice now, so.
Brent: right. Um, you know, it, there was always this, this piece though, with Lando and this whole deal. Is it him acting or is it the eyeball talking? So, so let me ask you this, did we ever see the eyeball assert control over londo and basically shunt londo to the, to the back of his personality and the, the eyeball?
Was there speaking, or was it always Londo is in full cognitive control. He has to put on this mask and, and say these things in public face and just 'cause he is being watched. What
Jeff: It's a, it's a good, great question. And I think about what the, how the region behaved, you know, on that. 'cause I think, I think the answer is both, you know, because it wasn't, there's no obvious like, oh, oh, now I am automaton being controlled. It's all very natural and everything still makes sense. But the regent who was, you know, Losing his mind, 'cause he'd been watching this for so long, would try to find little ways, you know, you gave the auditor, eh, after a fashion, right?
Like, you know, I'm not gonna say no because my, my dude's here and he'll do something to me or makes it nearly blocks me from doing the thing, but I can, I can play with language. The way I think of it is like the, the keeper basically laid out the game plan for him and said, go, go say it, or I'll
Brent: I would, I would think it's different. I think the DRock laid out the game plan and the keeper literally is just, I'm watching you to make sure you like, like Londo had to do it 'cause the keeper's there watching
Jeff: The, the thing that makes me wonder about that though is what we see him in war without end. You know, he's, he's, he's drunk and he's been drunk a lot and he's doing anything he can at that point, you're happy to die. He, he begs. He gets the keeper, he gets drunk, so the keeper goes away so that he can have jaar kill him.
Brent: mm-hmm.
Jeff: If it's bad, things are gonna happen to you. If you don't do what you're told, you have like this four second window or whatever before the bad things happen. You can be like, I got an alien on my neck. It's making me do everything. Please check it when I die. Oh God. Uh, and then you like you can sacrifice yourself.
Londo never did that. The regent never did that. The regent wanted to die. Londo wanted to die. I think if it's that thing where they can punish them in some way, they would just say it and let themselves die. I think, honestly, this is one of those things that is, there's a keeper, it's on Londo and there's a drop somewhere out there, and so Londo has to do the DR things. Stop asking questions. This is how it works.
Brent: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I wholeheartedly agree. And here's what we see we like in so many ways and, and I thought it was perfect with the, the way they did the flashback pieces. We saw first season Londo,
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: we saw the, remember londo, I forgot how to dance Londo in bed with are going, ah, that's old. That's, that's garbage.
I would give all of that up just to spin here with you. That was the, the same sentiment of Londo that we had here in this. Like he, this is a character who's come full circle the idea underneath Londo iss a really good person. Underneath all the hair. There's, there's, is this hair bigger?
Jeff: Off and on. There was one of the, the episodes we watched recently, I don't remember if it was last week or the week before, but I think it's the biggest it's ever been. And like when he was
Brent: And it was started flopping. Yeah, I saw that too. Um, but I mean, my God, I just, you know, I've said before, I'll say it again. If, if I were to be cast in the reboot, while I think I would thoroughly enjoy doing the character of Vere Londo is the character I wanna play. It is, he is by far, to me, the most interesting character in Babylon.
Five for the, for the arc that he goes on. But I mean, where he is as a character, where we meet him in his old age to where he winds up to, you know, here, here, here's Lando standing there in the room. Shirt off or, or, you know, thing pulled aside and he's watching this dude peel this thing away from his and he knows what's, like, he's just watching it and he's standing there like a man taking it, you know, for the, for the sake of his people knowing this is what he's got to do.
And he has to walk this line between satisfying the drop, but not like the, remember, remember what they said? They said Londo, what'd they say about Londo like two episodes ago? Londo iss the only one who's gonna be able to get us out of this, or something like
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Brent: You remember that? Like, I, I forget what the exact phrase was, but it was, it was basically, if you put any other centara in here, this whole thing's gonna just, the whole world's gonna blow up, you know?
I mean, look, look what happened when the regent was there. We got into another war. We're gonna put Londo and he's gonna have to walk this line, and he's gonna be in this place of, he's gotta satisfy the drop. He's also working to keep people safe. Like he's gotta do this, this, this thing. And Longo's actually the best person to do that.
Like,
Jeff: you put a RFA in there, the defense minister guy in there, a cartia in there. And not only are Thera gonna do stuff, but like they're, they're gonna convince him to go and like, no, we don't, we don't wanna sow discord. We're gonna go dominate.
Brent: we're gonna go, we're gonna literally blow everybody up. We're just going to, we're gonna drop whatever thermonuclear devices we have and gone. All of you.
Jeff: yeah. Asteroids for all. Here we go.
Brent: But Lon uh, what, what's the, what's the, the thing that Chunks, asteroids at people.
Jeff: Yeah, the mass drivers.
Brent: Those things. Right, right, right. Um,
Jeff: because like to where you, you were going earlier, he's like, dude, we gotta save dela. And he gives that like, well, too bad. But then something obviously happened because they show up and save Delaine.
Brent: Well, uh, not just to Lynn, but Lanier, who, you know, I think I noted last week, it's amazing that they were the two who survived on them.
Jeff: Well, and also for a dude who broke his leg in two places, dude, that animal shock meditation must be some incredible stuff. 'cause he was, I would be a whimpering blob of tears and, and whimpering and just whoopsy if I'd broken my leg in two places and was left there. And he's just like, Hey, I'm still just linear.
Brent: And the worst thing happens to 'em.
Jeff: Like the worst.
Brent: to die. And, and I mean, we've seen this how many times on TV and so many places. I love you.
Jeff: And then Han Solo jumps out and says, I know,
Brent: know. And then they don't die. And the, I mean, oh, this happened with Best, didn't it? Just a couple episodes ago. I.
Jeff: back to Bester and Nikki from 9 0 2 1 oh when he's just like, it's cool. Nothing happened.
Nothing happened.
Brent: And de Delin like, like he, he says, I love you. She says, I know they get saved. And they're like, okay, I didn't hear what you said. And then she's still sitting there like, Hey, listen, Lanier buddy, it's okay. It's just, and I'm like, delin cannot stop friend zoning Lanier.
Jeff: You know what you
Brent: stop doing it.
Jeff: It's like, here's what you do. You say, Hey, I didn't hear what you said. And he goes, oh, it wasn't important, and you're done. You stop talking. But she just kept going. And I could just watch Lanier's Soul just get smaller and smaller. And he's just like, what? Stop beating heart.
Just stop
beating. Like,
it was cruel. It was cruel of her to do that.
Brent: but she had no idea. She thought she was helping. She thought she was helping. I
Jeff: Totally. Ralph Wickham, I'm helping. You're apple pedaling backwards is what you're doing like, oh my gosh.
Brent: Oh my word. Oh my word.
Jeff: That was, that was rough. I, I liked the idea though, when they were kind of making conversation and trying to find some hope. I liked where she's like, maybe we'll find a million year old jump gate that takes me some, takes us somewhere.
I'm like, that's a, that's a cool idea. I don't know if that's
Brent: Hey, listen. If you're just going out there and like, Hey, who knows? Maybe something will happen. Let's see, let's see. Uh, in regards to this whole thing, the whole delin thing is, is the impetus of this. But I'm thinking back to Sheridan at the beginning of the episode, um, where Garibaldi calls him and he is like, Hey, uh, just so you know, uh, Dylan's ship is missing. Like, and I'm going, dude, he does not need to know in that moment.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: That's, that is the, like Sheridan's trying to come out and stop these guys from bombarding everything else. Right? And he is like, just so you know, uh, like, no, no, you save that information. You tell somebody else. You, you make something happen.
Sheridan does not need to be distracted by that in that
Jeff: Especially when he is like, Hey, we got people searching, like we're looking through hyperspace. We're doing it like he's doing anything he can do. So you let Sheridan ride in, be the dude on the white
Brent: There's nothing he can do about it in that moment with where he is. He needs to focus on what he's doing.
Jeff: exactly. Also un garibaldi. Since you're here,
Brent: Uhhuh
Jeff: dude seems pretty okay to me.
Like he was Johnny on the spot for stuff. He wasn't missing meetings or miscommunicating stuff. Like maybe is he just in a moment of sobriety? Is he just feeling good right
Brent: at some, I mean, you know, he just hasn't had enough to pass out yet,
Jeff: Yeah, maybe.
Brent: so.
Jeff: I decided it was like such a big story point and then, oh, he's just there doing his
Brent: Did we ever actually see Gar Baldi in this episode?
Jeff: He was on, um, uh,
Brent: on the screen,
Jeff: Yeah,
Brent: but he wasn't like in the rest of the episode. Like,
Jeff: Yeah. I don't think so.
Brent: yeah, so you that, you know what that is, is, Hey, we're paying him. Let's not pay another actor.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: That's what that
Jeff: or what it was. You, we've seen care of all these is pretty slick with a computer. Maybe he used Babylon five's chat, g p t to be like, Hey, when Sheridan calls just put up a hologram of me and say these
Brent: right?
Jeff: then everybody will think I'm good.
Brent: That's he Ferris Bueller it,
Jeff: He did right. Open the doors slowly and I'll just roll over.
Brent: Uh, yeah.
Jeff: you mentioned in the recap, Lita was like, Hey, we can't go to the lon home world until we've earned our spot. It'll be about a million years. Hey, we watched a million years in the future and
we watched, we watched Mass Effect. N P C is that new Earth is lon.
Home world. Is that gonna be new Earth?
Brent: think so, I think, I think that's, you know, yeah. And the reason they can't go there is because it would, you know, spoil the future, which would then spoil the past. And,
Jeff: It would all be bad.
Brent: um, so again, going back to Londo, Londo and Jaar specifically, uh, at the beginning of the episode when all the bombardment is happening, um, Londo, his first reaction is to go rescue Jaar. That's huge. That's a big deal that Lao's first reaction is to go save Jaar as opposed to saving himself, checking on anyone in Sari run, like
Jeff: Well, I
Brent: on like,
Jeff: you said, you said, um, Londo is the most complex character in Babylon five, but I think I. I'm just gonna say it. Lando and Jaar is the story of Babylon five.
Brent: Hmm.
Jeff: Everything else is happening around Lando and Jaar and their journey.
Brent: Lando and Kar in an elevator. Let's go.
Jeff: I'm not gonna sing it again. You can go
Brent: I'm not
Jeff: that in convictions or whatever that was.
Brent: yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I just, I mean, it's, it's so pointed and, and later they have this conversation and this is probably where everything's gonna turn here. Uh, Lando says It's funny, when I started I had no power, but all the choices, and now I have all the power I could ever want, but no choices. Phenomenal. Uh, uh, breakdown of where he is.
Jeff: And I think it was a great callback to Kar of the fourth season where he really questioned the price of power. And this is kind of that capstone on, on his ruminations on that back in the, in the last season and just beautifully said. But to dive into that more and to really talk about it. Brent, I think this is the point of the episode, or we're gonna boil this whole thing down.
We're gonna look at it, see what kind of messages are in here. Is there any hope for the future? Is it holding up a mirror to society? What kind of Babylon five message is there in this episode? And how did Babylon five deliver it in its own unique way? And you get to do that, my friend, by rating this on a scale of zero to five white stars, lay it on me.
What do we got for the fall of Sari Prime?
Brent: So I, I don't think this is the point of the episode, but I do want to note this because I thought it was a, a neat little kind of lesson. I guess we could say. Um, the dra cutting the sari off from the community of the Interstellar Alliance is not good for, for the centara to go out there and standalone, but it's exactly what the drop want.
Why? Because it keeps them easier to control when you are separated away from community. When you are cut off from the whole, you are easier to control. I would like to remind my fellow countrymen of that. And when people try to put up walls and into divide you, you are easier to control. We are stronger together than we are apart.
This is not a political statement. This is a statement of life.
That being said, uh, this, this episode, everything about this episode revolves around Londo, revolves around Longo's story. We have started, I mean, I don't know that this is the conclusion of Longo's story, but it kind of feel like, I think we know where Londo goes from here. We saw it in War Without End.
This is, he, everything is now set up for this. Right. Um, so as far as I'm concerned, I'm gonna say Longo's Longo's story. He, he's come full circle. He's, this is his, this is his deal. Uh,
this is Ari, I think is a, people either, at least through Lando, uh, in season one, started at an old age coming to a realization that the things you think important are important really aren't. Uh, that important. They're actually less than, but for some reason they could never seem to get away from them.
Londo could never seem to get away from the Republic being the great people that they once were. What do you want, Mr. Malar? You know what I want? I want my people to rule the galaxy again. Right? Um, they couldn't get away from it, and in the end it will cost them their lives because of it. But, but deep down who they really are, when they're not worried about this power and grabbing it power, they're actually a really good people.
They're great people. Um, when Londo says that line, when I was younger, I had no power, but I had all the choices. And now that I have all the power I could ever want, I have no choices. He's been backed into this, uh, situation. And I feel like in many ways this is actually probably true. Like when you look at, uh, Kings and Monarchs, I, I think of Prince Harry from over in England and the things that we've learned about that, um, and, and I have no idea how our British friends feel about him and the monarchy, um, and what's going on.
But, but from his point of view, everything seems very trapped. Like, like you listen to his story and you go, why would anybody ever want to be this prince? You've got all this awesome stuff around you and you have zero control. Like you're the freaking prince and you can't tell people what to do. They're telling you what to do.
You know what I mean? Um, Even even stories with the president, like the president of the United States wants to go do something and the secret service goes, no, you're not allowed to go. I remember a couple pre, was it Bush or Obama? I wanna say it was Obama was in an interview saying, I'm not allowed to drive anymore.
He missed driving. And he's not like, he's just not allowed to do it anymore. You know, you're, you're not allowed to go to places like, like you lose you, you gain this power, this, whatever, but you lose freedom in doing so. Um,
there comes this spot and I, I think Lonnda is the perfect emulation. Emulation, is that the right word? Maybe, maybe not. You guys can decide later. Personification. That's probably better. Uh, where there's two longos. There's the londo in private that knows right from wrong that wants to be better. This is the Londo we saw in bed with Lady Adera.
This is the Londo we saw in a private conversation with Vere talking about, I forgot how to dance. This is the Londo we saw talking to Vere or talking to Delin saying, I've gotta get Vere out of here because I see there, he's just too good of a person to be around all of this, and I gotta get him outta here and sends him off to Minbar as an ambassador.
Uh, we see, uh, Londo having a private conversation with Jaar in this episode. We see Londo having kicking back after the wedding, and him and Jaar having confetti on their heads. And, you know, they're just having a drink together, which should have been placed after the very long night of Lado malaria, but whatever.
Um, and then there's the Publico. This, this mask of bravado and of self-importance I think, of Londo. Uh, Anytime he was in the council chamber speaking for Sari, no captain, right? Um, I think of Londo and he's in the council chambers just a couple episodes ago, reading this order from the regent of we're gonna, you know, and Longo's like I, he, it's not his choice.
He's literally just the communicator at that point, right? He's just the messenger. Uh, but he has to wear this mask, but he has to do it confidently because he's representing his people. The difference is before he chose to wear the mask and now as emperor with Thera watching, he has to wear the mask. He no longer has that choice, even though that's not who he really is.
Now, what does all this mean? Where does all this come down to? Uh, I have no idea other than to say, why would anybody ever want to be king? I'm thinking of the Coldplay song, Viva Levita. Who would ever want to be king? Like, oh my gosh, be careful what you wish for, but, uh, understand that those guys don't have it as easy as we think we do, as great as we think they might.
Um, what does it mean for us, Jeff? I don't really know. I, I gotta be honest. I feel so bad for Londo. I, I feel, uh, a a thousand person bad. You probably have some really great things to say here. So Jeff, I'm actually gonna ask you before I announce my judgment of white stars, 'cause this, listen, this was a great episode.
This is an episode that makes you think, it makes you rethink life. It makes you rethink people. Listen, uh, here we go. I'll give you this. spite of Londo being trapped by the dra, receiving forgiveness from Dakkar made him just a little bit more free. There's a great message right there, Jeff. I'm gonna give you a chance to stump for something before I pass judgment on the white stars.
Jeff: You just hit on the thing and I think it's really powerful. We talked about forgiveness earlier, so I won't dive into that, but Jcar says a thing. He says, I forgive you. My people can never forgive your people, but I forgive you and I it. It's awesome. It's beautiful. It weighs a lot. But I also think it is fundamentally wrong because if Kar one person can forgive Lando,
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: one person, other NAR can forgive other centara.
One-on-one person to person, forgiveness can happen. And from there, the people will forgive the people, right? Maybe the label nar and the label sari don't officially issue an apology or a forgiveness or anything like that. But the people who connect individually, they can forgive each other. And so what was a powerful statement that felt, um, intensely personal between these two?
That was a call to action for every single one of us. If you are part of a group, whatever that group is, that feels that you were either victimized by another group or that you were the aggressor against another group, don't worry about forgiving that group. Forgive the people. Talk to the people, connect with them.
Find a way to forgiveness. We're all gonna be in a much better place. You
Brent: If I can, if I can, if I can piggyback on that, Jeff. 'cause I really like where you're going. Uh, find a way, offer that forgiveness, because guess what? Those people are gonna still have to live with the consequences of their choices and their actions.
Jeff: exactly. It doesn't condone them. It doesn't say that you a agree or approve of what it was. You're releasing that energy and another piece to that. They don't have to accept that forgiveness.
Brent: Mm.
Jeff: That's not, I mean, that's great. That's on. That's, but that's a them, that's a them thing. And I think we saw that, right.
We saw that in that, um, episode two was Lando asking, you know, apologizing to jaar. This is 16 episodes later that Jcar actually gives the forgiveness.
Brent: That's where that happened. Yep. Yeah, absolutely.
Jeff: it's a long time and so this isn't quick, but it's powerful. And you said it Kar forgave him that freed Londo. I think in that moment Londo was like, okay, I can do this. I can play this role. I can save my people by sacrificing myself, because now I, I have forgiveness.
Brent: Yeah. He has his redemption piece. Right.
Jeff: Right there.
Brent: Um, and I, if, if I may just add a personal deal, uh, if you have somebody who needs forgiveness, that somebody you're holding on to something for about you, you take as long as you need, but it doesn't have to take 16 episodes. That can actually go a lot quicker. And, and frankly, the sooner you do it, the better it will be.
Jeff: Can I get woo Woowoo on this a little bit, like a little, little. A little crazy with it, so, yeah, not, not,
Brent: It's, it's your show, brother. Let's go. It's your show too. Let's do it.
Jeff: I shared earlier, uh, a little bit about my mental health journey and a big part of my, uh, poor mental health, um, a year ago, and then I'm still working on was my inability to forgive some other people and to forgive myself for some stuff.
And I got some guidance, uh, from therapist and, uh, and so I, I have started like I, I meditate. I started journaling. So for those of you that know me, that's a, that's kind of a big deal. But I, but they, they said what you, part of the thing is there are people I needed to offer, I needed to, um, forgive offer forgiveness to that aren't with us anymore.
Um, they, they, they've since passed. And so how do you do that? Right? And so he said whether it's, uh, someone who's here or not, We all have a higher being. We have a piece of us that is more than us and our petty little human worries, right? Oh, my hairline, oh, what does my breath smell like? What if I say the wrong?
There's a piece of us that doesn't care about any of that, and we can access that person, um, whenever we want. It's not easy, but we can, and that person, that higher person doesn't judge, doesn't have judgment. It's just the core of you or that other person. So they said, get yourself in a meditative, relaxed, calm state.
Know what you wanna say. And have your higher person have a conversation with their higher person. Say the things that you need to say. They won't be judged, they won't be weighed in any way, but you get to say them. And then you get to offer forgiveness. And again, forgiveness. Can be a one way. It's awesome when it's offered and accepted, man, that's the best, that's great.
But the real power in it comes when you forgive. That's you releasing that energy and going, so like, it's, it's possible it can happen. But do like, to your point, Brent, take your time. Don't dive into it, but do it, do it a
a line you've
Brent: the better. The sooner the better. But take, like, take, it's, it's okay to take your time with it. You don't just have to be there. 'cause honestly, if you, if you force it before it's time, then it's disingenuine.
Jeff: Yeah. And in fact, the thing I've learned, especially in forgiving myself, which I'll tell you a lot harder than it sounds, um, but the thing is you actually never stop forgiving yourself. You, you do it a lot. And, uh, and I have a, a personal mantra that I may feel comfortable sharing someday, but. I forgive myself every single day.
Um, 'cause I, I have to have to keep that moving for myself. And that's a me thing. It may not be what you need, but it, but it works for me because, but I think the point, Brent, you've said this more than once on this, on this podcast, is, you know, by not forgiving someone holding onto that you, it's the, it's the equivalent of you drinking poison and expecting the other person to die
Brent: yep.
Jeff: just don't work that way.
Brent: A as you talk about all that, because this, this episode really does feel like the conclusion in many ways, to me, of five seasons worth of story. Um, but particularly between Jcar and Ando, right? Um, not the entire run of Babylon five, but it has unfolded over the course of the entire run of Babylon five.
And something I have said on this show many times that I, I'm going to bear, uh, it bears reiterating here. I think one of the worst lines in any movie ever, uh, comes from the movie Frozen. When people say, uh, we're not saying you can change 'em, 'cause people don't really change. And I fully reject that idea.
Jeff: Your Honor, I present Exhibit Alondo. Mal
Brent: People, ch jaar of narn, whatever, whatever is, you know, um, yeah, there you go. Uh, people change, and this is Londo going through a change, becoming somebody, honestly, becoming his real self of who he was back in season one, Jaar becoming his better self. I don't know where Jaar goes from here, but I promise you, Jaar having, having forgiven Lando is gonna walk out of this episode.
Freer, not tied down and able to do things he was not able to do before go places he was not able to go before. I don't know what that means for him as the new religious leader of, of, uh, the narn, uh, the religious figure icon or whatever. Uh, but I. Lon, uh, Jaar is gonna be able to do some stuff he wasn't able to do before.
He's gonna be able to lead in a way he wasn't able to to do that. Alright, all of that said, Jeff, questions come down to how intentional was this episode about delivering that message? That always factors into it. I, there was a lot in here. I'm not sure if we nailed exactly what J M Ss was going for when he wrote it, but there is a lot of that in there.
We also factor into the idea of how Babylon five was this, how unique to Babylon five. What, how, what, what message did this deliver? And, and frankly, Jeff, this delivered a message. No other show could've done it like this. Um, certainly not in the nineties because this, this is not something that can be delivered in 45 minutes.
Unlike a Star Trek message, like this is something that requires a. Uh, depth. It requires planning. It requires the long game, and you've gotta be in it, and you've gotta go through the valleys in order to come to the peaks, and that's multiple valleys and multiple peaks as you're going through the whole thing.
So I think, Jeff, I'm hesitant to give this five white stars because I don't know that it's all the way there, but I think there's a lot more in this episode. I can't wait to come back to this episode in Babylon five for the second time. 'cause I think the further I go, the more I think in rewatching, I'm almost jealous of the folks who are doing this rewatch because they've been watching all of the story unfold knowing that we get here. You and I haven't known that this is where this is going. So I gotta imagine this episode is going to mean so much more when we do the rewatch and have gone through knowing this is how it comes out
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: than we can even begin to fathom right now here in our first watch. So I'm gonna give an, I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do four white stars on this episode, but I'm putting an asterisk next to it. Uh, 'cause I did find, listen, this was a, this was a great episode of tv. My word was thought provoking. This is, this is a great episode of tv. It is a good episode. Thoroughly enjoyed this episode. It also had a lot going on with it
Jeff: A
Brent: and, and in many ways drew things in. And I, I can only imagine what we do witho here over the next four episodes.
Jeff: This would be an impossible episode. This would be an impossible first episode of Babylon five for someone to watch and watch it and be like, okay, so dude's a jerk now. Is that what's going on? Oh, why don't you listen to this hour and a half long conversation these two guys had about how he's a jerk now, but he's not a jerk.
He's actually a hero, but he's being a jerk to be a hero,
Brent: We still kind of like, I, I don't feel like we've, honestly, Jeff, I'm at, at the end of this episode, I still don't feel like we've, we've hit the target yet. I feel like we're still kind of circling around it. 'cause it's, it,
Jeff: Well, I think we still need the rest of the story. We still like, we know where it's gonna go, but there's four more episodes
Brent: more episodes. That's right. That's right.
That's, and a couple movies.
Jeff: yeah,
Brent: don't know what happens there either.
Jeff: exactly. Yep. Nope. Good rating. I, I agree. That's good. I love the asterisk on it.
Brent: Well, speaking of rating, Jeff, you get to place this one in our rating, our ranking, as it were, our 100% completely accurate, definitive stone clad ranking of season five Babylon five. Our current top five episodes. Number one, the very long night of Londono mal number two, all my dreams torn asunder. Number three, movements of shadow and fire.
Holy cow. Two of the last two episodes are right there in the top three, uh, no compromises in it. Number four, and learning curve is in it. Number five, Jeff, where are we placing the fall of Sari Prime? Is it in the top five or not?
Jeff: I'm not gonna mess around with this one very much. This one is in the top five. It is in the top three. It is Mr. Allen. The new number two episode of this season. And I'll tell you a big part of my thinking on that is the, the fact that we spoke now for well over an hour haven't hit the target on what this is.
Um, but also it is the arc of the very long night of Lando mal and a, and apologizing, and then the actual forgiveness being offered here in the fall. It's the fall of Sari Prime, but like the rise of Lando in a, in a really weird
Brent: way. Yeah. Yeah. I, I like these two being right up against each other. Um, again, I, I, I really think that this is one of those come back to us on the rewatch 'cause I think we're gonna, we're gonna mind. So I know, I, I, my Star Trek podcaster self knows there is so much more in this episode that we have not mined yet, that we can't keep going right now.
But coming back and seeing this again and again, uh, and there's depths to the show you and I haven't even scratched yet.
Jeff: We don't even know. We don't even know. Well, that does it for the fall of Sari Prime. Next week we're watching the Wheel of Fire for the very first time I. Now we don't know anything about these episodes. All we know is the title. We don't look at thumbnails. We don't read synopsis, descriptions, anything.
And the fun game, we love playing and the people like playing along with is where we predict what the next episode's gonna be about based on the title alone. Brent, you get to go first and tell us what you think the wheel of fire is gonna be
Brent: You know, Jeff, we come up on these kind of titles every once in a while, and I'm so mad at you because you've known this title for at least the last hour and a half,
Jeff: Yeah, like
Brent: maybe longer. Like what,
Jeff: Like two days
Brent: like two days. I've, this is the first time I'm hearing it. You've had all this time to think about it. I am. I've got 30 seconds to pull this out of the air.
Jeff. I have no id, I don't know where we go from here.
Jeff: yeah.
Brent: I, I, I have, I mean, what's left? Um, Sheridan still has to bring the Alliance back together, right? Um, That's, that's the telepaths have to find a home, I guess. Like we got the Telepath. I mean, Jeff, Jeff, we're running out of episodes for Bester to come back and do this whole thing.
Like
Jeff: getting nervous,
Brent: I'm getting real nervous. Um, will fi I, I, this could be, this could, this could be Lida and Best are squaring off.
Jeff: you think?
Brent: I maybe, I don't know. Um, you know, you know what Wheel of Fire reminds me of isn't that, isn't that a, a circus term? Isn't that like a, a thing in the circus? The wheel of fire that, that goes around?
Um, so maybe there's, uh, Sheridan or Lita, I'm gonna go with Sheridan. 'cause he is like our hero right now. Uh, there's like, there's like a stunt that he has to do that seems really, really dangerous. That's gonna get everybody back together in the alliance. Like there's, there's something he has to do that's super dangerous and, and.
It's almost like a circus stunt. Like, it, it's, it's probably gonna be so bizarre and weird. And I, that's, that's all I got, Jeff. I have, I'm grasping at straws. What do you got that you've been thinking about this for two days? Let's see how good you can do. Pow.
Jeff: so about like two, two days. And this, this,
Brent: I got 30 seconds. You got two days. What's up, man?
Jeff: this is, this is like what I, I go, this, this, this is it. I don't know where to go from here. We have just a few episodes left. There's a lot of character threads that are left hanging. So this is what I think, I think Wheel of Fire is a metaphor for this wheel.
I think that we have set up, um, that Franklin is heading back to Earth to take over Dr. Kyle's, uh, position at the end of the show. I think that we are, I think that we agree that Garibaldi at some point is gonna go back to Mars and, uh, Be with his wife or Mary Lease or whatever
Brent: Yeah. I think they've, they've telegraphed that for us. They've set that up. That, that, that's where he's going.
Jeff: so I think in this one the wheel is gonna be kind of spinning around. We're gonna get the Sheridan and Dela next steps, the Kar next step, the Zac next step, the lead. A next step.
Brent: It's, it's a little early for that.
Jeff: well I think it's just to, this is gonna be, this the kind of kinda slow episode that sets that up and then gives us, 'cause we have, 'cause here's the thing that we know also, we know that the finale, episode 22 was actually meant and filmed to be episode 22 of the fourth
Brent: Yep. And they just lifted it and set it like, as far as you and I understand. They didn't film any new scenes for it. Like they just went, whoop. So we really only have three episodes
Jeff: Exactly. Exactly. And so in that they gotta do that now, so they can do boom, boom, and finish out the stuff they're doing, and then bring us back to whatever the intended, uh, intended ending was meant to be.
Brent: So in deep space, nine terms, this is, this is the episode where, uh, the crew is in vix. And we're saying goodbye with a, the, a much better three and a half minute long song than what we got at a walkabout, if I can say so myself. Um, but you, you remember that scene in D Space nine, like, like you're going across and you know, you're having memories of everybody, but also like the crew, like the crew of the show is actually populating the audience and stuff like that, like real touching scene.
And then afterwards you went and had the big climax of the show. So this is, this is like that little breather where we're kind of saying bye to everybody kind of doing whatever. And then the next two episodes, I guess become the, the finale of the show. And then we get the finale.
Jeff: of the series. Yeah, because I think, I think that like what that did in Deep Space Nine that we'll do here is remind us that we love these characters.
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: You know, we know that, but like we've been in this turmoil, so this episode's gonna be like, Hey, remember this cool stuff. Remember this cool stuff.
This is gonna happen later. We have a future for everyone at the end of this that we might screw up in the next couple episodes. We'll see.
Brent: I, uh, yeah, I, I have no idea where this is
Jeff: No clue. No clue. Like in a way this could be the end, right? Like, okay, it's over, but we got a couple more.
Brent: and is. I had, I mean, I think I'm back in my head. I've known, yeah, like we have three episodes to wrap up the stories from season five that j m s has reset into motion, because that last one is the thing, and, and really those last two, it, it, it wouldn't shock me if the last two were a sort of, um, unofficial part one, part two,
Jeff: Okay.
Brent: you know, like, like they go hand in hand, uh, to wrap up the season.
Like, like, it, it, it wouldn't shock me at all. It.
Jeff: Yeah. I think that might be how we think of it, right? We're gonna have the season finale and then the series finale.
Brent: Enterprise had that.
Jeff: It did. It just had a finale for a different series at the end of it series. Hey, make sure you're here next week, because we're gonna find out what this episode is all about. Make sure that if you haven't already, you've subscribed wherever you're listening or watching us.
Leave us a rating and a review. Share this podcast with someone who loves Babylon five, or is about to fall in love with this incredible series. I can't wait until next time.
Brent: Hey, Jeff,
Jeff: Yeah. What's up?
Brent: so you know, as, as the show, Babylon five and, and Babylon five for the first time, kind of wraps up here. I, I just want to, you know, here at the end of the show, I just sort of want to take a moment and say just how much I have loved having you as a podcast partner. You have been amazing and I'm really gonna miss you when this is all done, man.
Jeff: I know, but also, thank you. But you know, this isn't the end. Right. Like we have movies, JM S'S autobiography, Claudia Christian's autobiography Babylon five for the second time. Like we've got.
Brent: okay, so this just got Awkward
Jeff: Don't worry about it. I didn't quite catch what you heard. It's probably fine. Hey, let's get the hell outta here man.
