[0:00] So what is to be gained by fighting? Maybe nothing. Maybe a lot. I'd like to be the one to make that decision.
[0:06] Music. The year is 2024. The name of the podcast, Babylon 5. For the first time. Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast. My name is Jeff Aiken. And my name is Brent Allen. You know, Jeff and I used to be, are, still are, I guess, two veteran Star Trek podcasting nerds who had never seen Babylon 5 before. So we decided to get together and document that, our journey through that. And we wound up falling in love with it so much that we're now continuing that journey with Crusade for the first time. And just like always, we're going to be searching for the deep, hidden messages that we find in this series. Don't worry though those are not star trek messages because again not a star trek podcast so to reinforce that we're keeping our long-running game of the rule of three in play that gives us a total combined of no more than three references to star trek per episode that's it three one of those places no substitutions exchanges a refund and if we happen to make one of those references jeff you're gonna hear this hey brent hey jeff we have a five-star review.
[0:10] I want you to know that this thing just made a very large dent in my ship.
[1:27] Yes this one's off of apple podcasts and d sassafras says i love a lot of these usernames we've been getting these are pretty epic they're so much fun d sassafras i'm really enjoying the show i just started a rewatch and i'm following along with the guys and i'm loving their first go-around perspective i saw the show when it first aired a million years ago and then had a great time binging it with my children when they were little listening in while they watch with no clues about the future is a lot of fun i'm constantly mentally nudging them along like a bowler trying to turn a gutter ball into a strike i just finished the first season and i'm looking forward to the rest of the show going to check out their other stuff when i'm done with babylon 5 well d sassafras thank you so much for sending that in we definitely appreciate it Unfortunately, I think there's a lot more gutter balls to come than there are strikes. Yeah. But I'll tell you, there are a few big strikes coming up that you haven't gotten to yet, and, oh, boy, when they do, you definitely, and if you're an audio podcast listener only.
[2:31] You might want to check out the YouTubes for some of those special videos. So, hey, Jeff, you know, along with our game, The Rule of Three, There's another game we like to play at the end of the show where we try to guess what next week's episode is going to be based on title alone. We're in the final weeks of this particular game. However, this is the part of the show where we revisit that prediction, that game from last week and see just how right we were. So, Jeff, do you think you can remember what you thought the needs of Earth was going to be about? And how close do you think you were? I sure can remember. So I get at least one of those answers as a positive. The other ones, not so much. I thought this was going to be Dr. Chambers getting to go to Earth, visit her sister, and then Earth Force was going to try and ground the Excalibur crew because they got exposed to the Drock Plague and stuff like that. Dr. Chambers was in this episode.
[3:25] Yes, Dr. Chambers was definitely in the episode. I can confirm that. That's about all I got on this one. What did you think it was going to be about? Well, I said that basically that I think I kind of put this more to a caveat of the show as a whole is this is going to be about what happens when the needs for the survival of Earth butt up against the sovereign rights of other alien cultures and other alien worlds. I just I felt like this is an issue the show could explore in many, many different ways many times over. And especially since we've added the questions of who do you serve? Whom do you trust?
[4:02] So I think I said this one was going to be that they're going to go to some planet, come across a group of people that have something that Earth needs to survive. And maybe, maybe I posited it's that information that that alien guy who inhabited Wells said that he had right before he died. But that it was going to be in conflict with the people who have that information or have that thing. and Gideon's going to have to decide if the needs of the earth outweigh the needs of everyone else. And I also said, I feel like this is going to be chock full of messages. I think I got the last part right. Oh yeah. Yeah. I think so for sure. I feel like I got the last one right. And I, I don't know about the rest of it, but I feel like we were approaching that. Like we were, we were getting there and then it, it sort of turned into something else altogether, which was totally cool. I'm, I'm great with that. But yeah, so I, I still think we're on that path of, we're going to explore that theme quite a bit. This just turned into something else. Very different. But yeah, you got a lot of pieces in this one for sure. Well, Jeff, that's what you and I thought the needs of Earth were going to be about. For the folks out there who haven't seen this episode in a while, maybe they've never seen it and they're just hanging out with us, which is far more likely here with Crusade than it was for Babylon 5. Why don't you tell the folks at home exactly what this episode was about? Remember back when we heard the Rangers were out looking for the cure stuff too? Well, this episode is a show don't tell on that front. We meet a Minbari ranger that tells Gideon they've got a hot lead, but they'll have to interfere with another race.
[5:30] Traffic and stolen merchandise and break any number of local laws. And when they do that, they'll get the fully downloaded Wikipedia of an entire species, and that guy is now on the lam. And who knows? There could be some info on the Drock Plague on there, maybe, possibly, but time is of the essence. His people have a bounty on his head and they are chasing him down. They find his location and the race is on. Gideon and Doreen head down to the planet's surface to get this Nachok Var guy and his Wikipedia. Doreen has been here before and is confident that she can get to this guy. She asks Gideon to set up a distraction and he absolutely obliges. And I think, I think he really enjoyed doing it too. Then she flashes a Thieves Guild signal and some rando takes them to meet Nachok. On the way out, Darina pauses to free a bunch of slaves. Later on, we find out that she was sold into slavery by her family, and this is her way of answering the prayers that never were answered for her. On the Excalibur, Var is unwilling to let go of his downloaded data. That is, until he discovers Falco. When Gideon walks in on him, he's screaming, Rock, rock, rock me, Amadeus! Once he knows these people value culture and music, he agrees to share his data. At the same time, though, his people, the Marati, show up. They're pretty high and mighty and basically threaten to fight them with a whole bunch of ships if they don't just hand the dude over.
[6:58] Natchoc goes full Braytac and agrees on his own to go with his people knowing that his data is safe on the Excalibur. But not surprisingly, the Matari blow dudes shuttle up as soon as they're clear of the ship. Gideon, feeling defeated, just lets him go. He's got no jurisdiction or authority here. Dr. Chambers has deciphered what was in the downloaded data from Braytac. And it's not all the scientific and medical info they were hoping for. No, it's all their culture, their books, their music, their art. Basically, he's shared their Audible and YouTube with them. And Gideon? Gideon is pissed. But Dr. Chambers schools him on the power of hope. Gideon gets that message and asks if he can indulge in some of that hope too. Oh, yeah. And there was absolute, full-on, total porn in this one. Like Snow White and the Seven Narns, Who's Your Little Pachmara, and yes, we almost see a fully nude Pachmara on this one. Wow. So, Brent, we got a lengthy view of the needs of Max Eilerson in this one. What did you think about the needs of Earth? You know, Jeff, I'm trying to think real hard, and I'm not sure that there was a single part of this episode that I did not like.
[8:21] I loved this episode. is this um is this a an emmy worthy submit it for the uh submit it for all the the the what do you call them like the award shows and stuff no it's not that kind of an episode right i want to i want to tread this water really carefully right now okay i'm gonna i'm gonna bring in the dreaded the dreaded thing this is not a reference this is talking about me as a star trek podcaster okay what i do what you do what we do is we we have this thing where star trek is not just cowboys in space going pew pew pew it's it's about showing us society as we are it's these messages that get laid into uh star trek and and what it's it's meat it's something you can chew on it's it's like having a nice steak for dinner if you really understand what's going on behind the scenes sometimes there's just fun little episodes that are cotton candy. That's fine. But a lot of times Star Trek intentionally is like that. This is an episode that scratched all those itches as a Star Trek guy right here. And, and I just want to highlight, I'm not saying that the messages contained in this episode are Star Trek messages. They're not, they're sci-fi messages.
[9:37] This is the, we talk about how sci-fi is a genre that is uniquely positioned to be able to show earth ourselves to posit what things could be like in the future if we don't change our ways to show us what could be if we choose well to show us how just to be better human it's it's those sci-fi messages and this one just dives full into that it embraces it all the way around i was entertained the entire way i i.
[10:11] Cackled cackled at the beginning part with the porn bit it was so funny there's a part later on and we i don't know we can talk about that later but um gideon um or no i was a gideon or eilerson one of the two says this line about the the data crystals that gideon has from eilerson um and he's like yeah he's been banging those crystals around then i'm like dude that's dirty that is dirty what you just said there so it's the little things like that but then there's Gideon and Darina down in the thing and Gideon's like just getting himself beat up while Darina goes and does her thing but then she has this moment of crisis that's like a personal mission for her that she has to go out and you have that whole piece going on and then certainly the whole thing with what'd you say his name not I got his Braytac to me it was Braytac um Nachok Var there you go So where he's holding, you know, he's holding all the important information from his society. No, no, no. It's his culture.
[11:14] And his culture is, oh, my gosh. It's like Fahrenheit 451, 351. What's the number?
[11:21] 451. It's a 451. It's Fahrenheit 451 society. And he's like, no, no, I have to save this. I got to do everything I can. Man, sacrifice is a lot. Oh, my gosh. It's just phenomenal, Jeff. I loved this episode all the way through. So, yeah, I'll watch this one every single time it's on. How about you? Yeah, I feel almost exactly the same. This was so good.
[11:41] But to your point, I'm going to go even deeper on your point that this was beat for beat almost a Star Trek episode. Like from the makeup to a lot of the framing and just kind of the way things were set up. But this one was wrapped in a little Babylon 5, that opening scene. Yeah. it made it yeah it's like hey we're star trek but also we're not we're not your mom's star trek uh just watch this video right here and we'll approve you.
[12:09] I like that we got some deep dives into some of the deeper dives into some of the characters. We learned more about Gideon and his time on his on the Cerberus that we got hinted about when he and Galen came together. We got some time with Matheson for the first time. Learned a lot more about Doreena. And we got, you know, a little insight into Eilerson in this one. And, you know, I think I loved I made the statement a couple of times during my reaction. And even in my notes that that scene where they're just showing that that porn is either one of the worst scenes in the history of television or one of the best. Either way, it's one of my favorites. Like, on one hand, I love they went there. But also, I think what was neat about it was it just opened up. And I don't think this is the direction our conversation is going to take. But just to say it, like, it opened up this thing that, hey, in the future, we're not going to be like the our idea. Of sexuality that we have today aren't really necessarily going to apply in the future. We're going to know so much more and there's going to be just different stuff. And I don't know. I thought it was a neat exploration of just sexual expression and stuff in the 23rd century. But I have a theory about this one. And I think this will show when we get into our conversations. But I think that this must have been the last episode that was physically produced. Okay. And they knew it was canceled. old. He knew it was going to be the last one. He's like, well, I'm going to.
[13:39] I'm going to slip some porn into this one. Also, I have this stack of ideas and messages and things that I wanted interrogated, and I have 12 minutes of screen time left. So buckle up. We are shoving every single one of these. I was going to spread this over four and a half more seasons, but I got 12 minutes. You know, I mean, we said the same thing back in Babylon 5, right? Remember, we got to the end of, I believe it was Objects and Rest. And the episode kind of goes out on Sheridan sitting there recording a message to his son.
[14:12] Which is the that was more of the hey let me recap five seasons of messages for you of what JMS has been trying to get out these are the lessons I want you to learn and take with you as you leave here wrapped into that I get what you're saying this is just the hey here's what I would have given you but there here you go but no this this is a fantastic episode I really enjoyed it i don't have a lot of bad stuff to say on it at all we we have to start this off and we it's it's we got to get it out of the way we got to talk about the porn the pockmaron the room and dive it we we have to talk about this whole piece all right number one i have to believe, that in some measure folks tell me out there if i'm right or wrong i have to believe in some measure this was tnt coming to jms saying hey we want you to do something you know i know cw was all about get the bands get the popular boy bands and stuff on the show or something of that nature and this was jms being like okay you want me to do something to draw some eyeballs.
[15:16] Bam and it was just his way of like kind of shoving it back in the man's face you know i've got to believe that that's what that was i also have to believe that it's him taking advantage of his mute his uh his composer and the music he's just like hey i finally found a place where your music makes sense it worked it did it worked um also now the other okay first of all snow white and the seven narns that immediately conjures image now here's the thing imagine and i'm going to say this a few times imagine you're a person who never watched babylon five you're entering into crusade this is your entry point you hear snow white and the seven narns goes over your head you have no idea sounds spacey later you start watching babylon 5 and then you see jakar and they call him a narn and you make the connection like seven of these guys do you remember back uh the regent right when we used to call him jokey mcjokerson when he was just kind of oh yeah yeah and so it's the first time he was told his jokey mcjokerson thing about the narn to veer and then veer goes off and he opens the door and there's just like this wall of narn your Cotto and the 7 laughter.
[16:30] And then the other one, who's your Pac-Morah? Now, here's the other thing, okay? Look, we've seen our fair share of Pac-Morah, never derobed. Right. But the Pac-Morah that they had in this video was tall and standing up straight and ripped and muscular. And I was like, that's not a Pac-Morah. That ain't real.
[16:54] And I'm having this idea in my head of, okay, first of all, I don't know that this is any different from what they're producing today, but in the future, they're literally like, it literally is all fake, right? Yeah. Yeah. What does it look like for these guys to, you know, do this? Well, the anatomy is different because Jeff, I have since found out how Pac-Murah reproduce. That's right. The little hump on their back. Now, some people say that the Pac-Murah is a male and the little hump on their back is a female. There are others who say that the Pac-Murah is a female and the little hump on the back is actually the male. And they're mating. That's, that's them like mating. And that's why you always have, and it just happens all underneath this robe and everything. And, you know, there's a piece of me that sits back and goes, well, you can't have a Pac-Mara and a human or a Snow White or, or whatever, because bodies don't mesh like that necessarily, you know? Yeah. So, you know, I just, I was, I just, man, that opened up all this in my mind going, not into dirty places, but just the logistics of like, Oh my gosh. How does this even happen? But I thought also, and I think I talked about it a little bit when I was watching it, but also maybe that had very little to do with actual sex and was more just like, you know, some domination and some stuff going on. Oh, okay. There you go. But they have, hold on, let me see if I have my note here.
[18:17] So Brent, I have an image that I hope to be able to share right here. But if you pause the episode at almost exactly 10 seconds, there's totally nipple.
[18:31] Full on. Yeah. I felt like I was like 13 with the wavy TV thing.
[18:37] You know, trying to like, oh, it's not like, get a max. But i was watching i was watching the thing i'm like oh my god did they just and then i'm like frame by frame and i'm like oh my god to be fair i did not look that closely i you know i was just doing my research i yeah i think i think it's real seriously so the show opens gideon's just sitting there watching this stone-faced it's just stone-faced just watching this and the doctor walks in there is no like oh oh my god like there's no he's just watching turns on looks at the doctor and she's like just carry on a conversation right and she she's like should i come back do we need to whatever and she's like oh my gosh this is but here's the thing she i think it was the doctor who said maybe it was the doctor who said like they can't actually reproduce like that or that's that's not real like what you're seeing there is not real and i just sat there and i thought you know i know a lot of doctors i know a lot of physicians and one thing that i constantly hear is they cannot watch medical shows because the medicine in them is so bad and it's not real at all and i'm like man of course of course the doctor would have problems with you know accuracy on screen i know that's how it works she walked in and i was just like oh my god where's hr this is a serious problem like oh my god but he's in his quarters he's in his quarters like well yeah but you know what she knocks on the door you pause and turn the screen you don't just keep watching i mean.
[20:06] Imagine that hey boss you got a minute yeah come on in just watching this thing right here go ahead and talk while i'm watching i'm not even gonna pause it for you oh my god yeah but they started this shtick they started this gimmick in this scene and they.
[20:18] Played it out a couple of times where they have it playing and then they all kind of stop and tilt their head to the side and i'll look and they all do it together right like a dog like yeah it's great but i think a big reason why this worked though and in the the scope of the whole show was because it was max's like he's we were told i think it was after last week or the week before a lot of people were saying in the comments and over on patreon that like no you're supposed to not like max eilerson like you're not and this proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt where it's like yeah that's the point of this character and giddy and playing him with the whole like.
[20:56] You, I, I, my, my dad, a crystal corrupted. Let me, let me get it back for me so I can get you. No, that's fine. We'll deal with that later. Sure. We can do that. We're good. No problem. I mean, it's not like there's something on there, right? Like, I mean, I could just keep talking about this part. We could just keep doing this. I'm good.
[21:12] I have a lot of notes. Oh, no, this is my last one on this particular deal. But, um, I mean, this played exactly. I don't know if you ever had this, this experience. i certainly did of dad had a videotape in his sock drawer and i found it uh-huh and i knew what it was and i'll never forget like there was the one day that it got recorded over like it was i don't i don't know what it was an episode of something or other a football game or whatever but then as soon as the recording's done it flips right back to whatever was on there before i'm like like i'm watching this play out i'm going i was i don't know 9 10 11 years old when this happened like oh my gosh i just like to get this data crystal out of a sock drawer man that's that's the only place i can think it came from oh it's one of these let me grab it really quick yeah i'll just i'll just yeah i got this on another data crystal somewhere and my petabytes worth of material.
[22:11] Let's use this one it was funny i think i'm gonna wrap this whole piece up i thought it was hilarious the whole bit it was great it was just it was so fun well and even here i'll watch this transition this little segue into the actual conversation it was also brilliant how they used it on the planet like they used it as a distraction so it wasn't just a joke it's also like also there's a practical reason for this well it turned into a mcguffin right like that it moved the plot forward later so it was so funny in that scene too because like they start playing it to distract all these you know hoodlum tough guys and you hear it and they.
[22:47] Oh, my God. What is that? I have to get up. I have to. Like, they're all to a person. I can go walk over here and see this. But the thing is, is that played so true. Yeah, exactly. You can see them actually doing that, you know? It was perfect. It was so well done. It was good. What did you think? The very top of the episode just about, but when we saw Minbari, what did you think about that? Man, I loved it. I loved seeing the Minbari. Again, I go back to that whole deal of if you never saw Babylon 5, this would be a new alien to you. We've never seen a Minbari on Crusade before, at least not in our run, the order we're doing it. So at least I can't recall if we've ever seen a Minbari. Somebody said, oh, there was one in the background. Okay, cool. I don't think there was. I wouldn't know who the Rangers are. I wouldn't know like all of these things. And you know, the thing is, is that's okay. It wasn't integral to the part to know who those guys were but i felt more into the show because i knew who those guys were you know totally but this dude comes in and he's like so here's this thing and we can't go do it but i can give it to you if you want it but here's what it's gonna mean.
[23:54] And he's like how far are you prepared to go that was a great question i thought that should be added to that list oh yeah yeah who are you what do you want where are you going who do you serve who do you trust how far are you prepared to go like that's that's a great question that is a good one but when Gideon goes I'll go as far as I need which by the way that is something to pay to pay attention to Gideon saying that the way the Mimbari smiled I was like good I was hoping you'd say that this is not your typical Mimbari and I don't know if that's just a a signal that Mimbari's culture has started to change because remember this is five years after the end of Babylon 5 right so though that Bambari culture has started to change in a much needed way. Or is this guy just been hanging around humans too long? Or could just be the fact he's a ranger.
[24:41] You know, and they have a different culture within themselves. I did like how, because I've mentioned the Rangers a handful of times, and it's a great device where if I'm a casual viewer, I have an idea of what Rangers means, you know? And so it's even at a high level, you're like, oh, okay, so they're out looking for stuff. But they did a great job explaining their role just in, you know, in a really compressed amount of time. There's a lot of exposition in that scene that was done really, really well. But my this is my one real beef on the episode was just the line delivery of him where he's like you'll have to do petty larceny and break i'm like he made it like this big thing but he's literally like you'll have to be mildly inconvenient to the municipal government.
[25:25] It's like oh yeah it didn't ring real and especially when you showed up where that place was it's like oh you really needed to describe this in a lot more detail you left a lot out I will say this. When Gideon's going through that whole piece, my thought was he's willing to break all these laws just to save 10 billion people. Gideon's got a little Cisco in him, and I kind of like it.
[25:51] That was a reference. That was a reference, and it was a really well-played one as well. But they're down on the planet's surface, right? So they find out where this guy is, and they head down to the planet's surface, and they've got a whole plan to get inside. It's built a lot like Mars. There's domes and things connecting them. and they get to the doorway and they can't get in. Mm-hmm. Um, I guess I, I guess I did have another beef with this episode. So Doreen is like, I haven't been here in six years. I'm sure I remember the code. Go ahead and take my gloves off. So I will suffocate because I totally remember this thing from six years ago. Right. Also, why did I take both gloves off? That was interesting to me. Yeah. Well, can we back up a little bit? Well, I was going to say like, before we get down to the planet, um, one to go back to my prediction of the episode of where I'm talking about, we're going to have to balance the needs of Earth against the law, you know, against going against the sovereignty of another nation. So far, I'm with Gideon on this particular one. Like the needs of Earth do outweigh the illegalities. Is that a word? Sure. The illegalities that they're facing here. We're not talking about wiping out a planet or destroying another species. We're just talking about freeing a fugitive. That's all we're talking about. So, yeah, for 10 billion people, yeah, go break that law. That's fine. Yeah, I'm with you so far. But I want to add a question for you, though. Okay.
[27:16] Gideon says he's the one who has to go do this mission. They're like, oh, no, you don't need to go do this mission. No, no, I've got to do this because if this thing goes sideways, I'm taking the rap. No one else. What are your thoughts, Mr. Leadership Guy?
[27:29] That's how it's done. That is how it's done. I think, you know, Star Trek, Babylon 5, I think Battlestar Galactica did this. I'm sure other ones. But there's this moment where if we mess up, you know, we're going to get called on the carpet. There's going to be nobody to support us. But there's the moment where the captain says, I'm going to go do this. You can come along or you can walk away. It's your choice. And there'll be no consequences for walking away. And, of course, everybody's like, I'm in. except for that one guy in the CNC in Babylon 5 who's like, no, I'm actually, I don't want to secede from Earth. Well, because you have to have the one guy, right? Exactly, yeah. It's like, not me. But then everybody else is like, I think I speak for the crew captain when I say, to hell with our orders. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's such a trope, and it's great, and all the things. And that's what I expected to happen here. But no, Gideon was just like, no, I'm not even going to ask you to do this. I'm going to do it. And I think, I think that's like a next level leadership thing of like, as soon as if you're in a position of power and you're like, Hey, so I can't really ask you to do this, but I'm going to ask you to do this. You're totally going to do it. Right? Like, are you going to fire me if I don't do it? So him just saying, no, there's no question. I'm doing this. That was great. That was so good. And it made total sense. Absolutely.
[28:48] Also Gideon's the guy. He's got to be on the mission. Yeah. He's sort of the star of the show. So I did really appreciate that we took Darina down because like last week and even this week, I've kind of been like, well, we haven't really gotten a whole lot of Darina. Yeah. The only one we've had less of than Darina really has been Lockley. Lockley or Matheson even. Eh, yeah, Matheson's still better. You're right, you're right, Matheson too. But, I mean, I was really glad to get some Doreena and just kind of get some of her backstory. Doreena's backstory, she was a slave. She's not just a thief, she was a slave. She said last time she was here she was learning how to serve. And I'm like, is this about who you serve?
[29:30] Oh, that's part of her question for that. Which we can talk about whether or not that's true or not. Ultimately, it wasn't in that way. well let me dive into that though a little bit because yeah if we look at that she was learning how to serve now just because you learn a thing doesn't mean that you do it right but she did a thing this time when she paused the whole mission jeopardized it to blow that door open and release the slaves was that her applying what she learned she was serving those slaves and in a way serving herself at the same time right like she was addressing that past trauma but also like i I was learning how to serve, not my masters, not whatever, but the people who were stuck with me, the people in my thing. And this is her was her chance to be like, now I can actually be of service to you. I love the metaphor that you're putting to that. I don't think that's at all what she meant or what JMS meant when he wrote those lines or whomever wrote those lines. I don't think that's what they meant, but I love what you're saying. I love how you're turning that on its heels to actually mean something really cool. I loved I loved that whole thing with her doing that and Gideon getting on top of her what the heck and then she's like no dude like this was a big that whole thing played out in a great way that's that's not let me get to know you a little bit that's like here I am and this is who I am.
[30:50] But before we got to that yeah she needed a distraction oh oh oh so Gideon goes to pick a fight with a guy jeff tell me true or not this guy looked like he was straight up right out of world world of warcraft yeah wow or i thought he looked like goro from mortal combat just with two arms something like that yeah like he looked like he could be that dude i was like oh my god of all people to go pick the fight with that's not the guy it's so great he is like oh i should to start it smaller but there's a scene so like he immediately picks them up and power slams them over and into a table yeah i watched that little scene probably 20 times the stunt the stunt worker who did that you watch them like pose, It was a perfectly executed move. It was, go back and watch it. All of you, go back and watch that scene. It was so perfectly executed. It was beautiful. No, that'd be great to look, because he took a bump, right? Basically, that's what he did, yeah. Yeah, he took a bump. That's not a drug reference, folks. That's a wrestling reference. Let's just be clear.
[31:56] Doreena, while she's leaving that room, during the distraction that Gideon is causing, she stops at the edge, and she stops and she stalls, And she gives somebody a look and like, what in the world is she doing? My first thought when she did that was, oh, no, she just effed up. Oh, because now she got caught because that person that saw her, that was her former slave master. And she just got seen like, oh, shoot. And she just messed up for whatever reason.
[32:28] No, turns out she was doing a thieves guild thing, got her dude to come help because they're all with each other which i i'm really interested in how this thieves guild thing works you know what i mean like they're friends they're buddies they're they're they're looking out for each other they have rules about stepping on each other's turf and whatnot and you've got to imagine there's some sort of internal conflicts there but the guild supersedes that like what are the rules i'm really interested in this in this thieves guild piece yeah i should have to throw it up i But I didn't think that – I kind of connected those dots pretty easily because at first when she did put the symbol up on the thing, I was like, what is going on? And then she made eye contact. It's like, oh, it's a Thieves Guild thing. Oh, okay. That's actually paying off at this point. But I looked at that guy, and I wonder if it's the same actor who played the hollow Techno Mage from last week. They looked almost exactly the same. Interesting. Interesting. I just want to point out, Jeff, of course you would pick up on that, and I wouldn't.
[33:31] You would suss that out i was like no dorita just stepped up right she's gonna die if when she put the thing up i was like what what i didn't know what she was doing i was like she just sort of like did a thing with her hand i was like did she activate something what is what in the world.
[33:46] But uh then on the other side of the wall gideon gets thrown through the window now he's had this big fight now this is the part that took me out of the episode he has this big fight he's just come back from his mission of distraction and all he has is a little scratch on his face like really he should have been pulped out just oh something he's just did i do it did you get what you needed the arena the arena right all right so how long did it take you how long did it take you to realize this is tony amandola it's almost embarrassing how long it took me so it was the scene he's gone right or i think he's almost gone but um where dr chambers is like here's the video of him telling us everything that just happened and as he's talking they came for they burned the books they burned the art and i remember i'm just like is that is that tony amandola is that braytag and then afterwards i went back and looked i'm like holy crud it was totally him i i'd never if it wasn't for his voice and his delivery he looked nothing like tony amandola that's the power of makeup ask me how long it took me i'm almost i'm almost afraid to how long did it take you brent about 0.2 seconds as soon as he opened his mouth and i heard like just those first tones i was like that's tony amandola i know exactly who that is and and.
[35:15] It was throwing me the whole episode because his.
[35:18] Voice and his makeup did not match at all like that voice does not come out of that face great makeup job by the way like cool makeup job but it just didn't match the voice of a you know Tony Amendola is this this gravelly he's he's he's he's not this smooth skinned whatever like like even like Tony's real face he's.
[35:40] He's very textured in his skin and and you know he's he's a this is a guy who's been around the corner like he knows some stuff and uh and and i'm saying that because i've seen him in other things and that's just how he is so it threw me but oh my gosh i'd i'd it's probably jeff a top is it top three it might even be a top three babble on five for the first time franchise guest appearance for me i think so too because I think that he was cast for two reasons. He was cast for the scene, what I could tell it was him, just given that soliloquy, just the power behind that.
[36:20] And he was cast for his facial acting, When he discovered the music, when he started, I mean, I, I felt that with him, that connection to the music, it was incredible. But you know, the thing is, is, but also his lines that were written for him could have actually been written for Braytac. Like the way he was speaking, the words he was saying, like that's Braytac just talking right there. It's not just the voice. It's the cadence. It's the rhythm. It's the words. It's the, the sentence structures that he uses. So one from a character standpoint, his willingness to sacrifice himself for something bigger than him to put himself at risk for something like that. Like it was literally like, hey, what if we put Braytac in weird makeup? Oh, that's Tony Amendola. Cool. I just want Braytac. Right. Right.
[37:07] Oh, this predates that a little bit. I think when the the Maradi, which, by the way, it's kind of neat to get a new alien. We've been in this universe for a while now and kind of thought you i mean do we know everybody out there jeff no but we've got a good handle on the main players of the big people who are out there even even the side people who are there this is a completely new species to us we've never heard of them but kind of at the end they're they're standing there they get their crystals back, turns out we have a copy now but they get their crystals back and they get on their their ship and they go by themselves immediately i was like they're gonna put him on another shuttle and they're gonna blow that shuttle out of the water like it wasn't what didn't even take me half a second to know that that's what they were gonna do but the scene when they set that up though was so beautiful with it was with uh natchoc var and and matheson right there and i loved how they even played back to it when matheson was having his crisis of conscience with the whole thing but you could just see that look in natchoc's eyes where he's just like i've done what i need to do like we will live on so of course I'm going to go do this thing but the Matari a fleshed out species which is great but I mean so we met Nix who was the.
[38:24] Translator for the minister guy both those guys are something else but Nix is railing off all the titles the master of this and the conqueror and Gideon's just like I don't care shut up, What are you here for? He's like, oh, well, I'm his translator, and I'm here to talk because he won't sully himself. And he's like, well, then you tell your guy that he's an ass. And I'm like, God, Gideon, you are the greatest. So good. Yeah, they laid him out, and it was incredible. But as they're doing that, like figuring all that out, because Nick says that, hey, you can bring him in, or we're going to go at it, and then like six ships come and surround the Excalibur. And so it's real do or die. What do we do here? and they had the whole question. This was the needs of the many question that came up where Eilerson was like, we can either save this refugee or do our mission and save the people of Earth. Which one is it going to be?
[39:20] What did he say? He said, do the math here, Captain, come on. And Gideon did another incredible leadership thing here. They could have sat there in that room and just been like, well, let's weigh this out. But he's like, I'm going to go talk to Braytac and I'm going to be like, hey, here's the deal. They're going to blow us out of the sky if they don't get you back, but we're interested. And it just overlapped with that time when he had discovered our love for, you know, 400-year-old music. And he's like, no, we're good. I'll give you my stuff and I'll go. Like, problem solved. But I loved that Gideon went to the source. Right. In that scene also, they said the thing. What is to be gained by fight? I had no idea I threw a Braytac line in the open. That's so cool. This may be crossing a little more over into the next segment, but it's the chunk of the episode. Like we, we get down to it and turns out the Maradi have reached a point of morality, government ordered morality, the best kind. And they're so overzealous of being moral that now they're burning books. They're eliminating art. They're doing all these things. And Jeff, listen, I, I agree. There needs to be limits on the types of books that get placed in elementary school libraries.
[40:30] Sure. Sure. That makes total sense to me. Have some standards. Yes, there is a point to that, but there's also a point to going too far. And there are things right here in my own home state of Florida. I'm going to call it out, and I'm going to say it's not right. It's wrong, and it shouldn't be happening the way they're banning books and what they're doing with teachers here in this state. It's not okay. And it's all under the guise of morality. It's all under the guise of everything you guys have there is immoral to have in front of the kids and the thing is it's not you've gone too far and you're eliminating the stuff now that's just what's happening in my own home state right now right now but we know throughout history we've seen people burn books eliminate art ban music like all of this stuff and it's always done.
[41:24] In the name of morality. Yeah. And it never turns out well for the society. No. Like ever. I watched, when I watched this scene, I was, get your Jeff bingo card out because here comes one. I was watching, this is 100% the story of 2112, Russia's 1976 opus, where they have this perfect society where morality is dictated, where the temples of Syrinx make all the decisions. Or the priests of the temples of Syrinx make all the decisions for everyone and it's very randy and sort of a culture. But one dude is out walking around one day and he finds a guitar and he starts playing the guitar and he's so excited. He's like, oh my God, listen to this music and see and feel what it can do. And he goes to the priests and he's like, look at this thing. It's amazing. And they crush him. They destroy him. And in this case, Natchoc, Braytac was the dude. I mean, I got him right here. If you're watching on video, there's Starman. I can see it, yeah. It's right over your shoulder. There was this little dialogue at the very end because I was so hit by how, like...
[42:33] Like you said, we're actively doing this here on Earth in America today. We record this, it's 2024, and it's happening. But at the end, Chambers and Gideon, Dr. Chambers and Gideon are talking, and I'm going to read the whole little phrase because it was amazing. It says, Eilerson said it himself, we have to focus on the needs of Earth. And Chambers says, I've listened to it. The stories, the music, they're all about hope. Hope to inspire a dozen generations. And Gideon says, well, we need to talk about the needs of Earth. While we're waiting on science to discover the math that will lead to a cure, we need something to sustain us. And this is the music and the literature of hope. It's what we need. Another culture forgot that. We can't. Not now. Not ever.
[43:21] And we put this label of morality on doing this. But the reality is we are extracting, we are blocking, eclipsing hope for so many people. I think about you and me, right? So we are people of great privilege. And I want to acknowledge that because the educational choices we've made for our children are choices not everyone can make. But because we've made these choices, our kids have access to things that others don't. So if they're in the public school system in the state of Florida right now, they're actively taking hope away from these kids. You get to intervene and make sure your kids have that. And other parents have that opportunity as well, but it's more just part and parcel. I have the same opportunity here, though in Oregon we're not banning books yet. I don't want to be too overly hopeful. We're in the middle of an election cycle right now, so we'll see. But it's, I mean, just don't, again, jumping way ahead, but the message, don't burn books.
[44:23] Don't it's not good don't burn the art, I think, you know, I just have two more notes on the episode itself. One was about Matheson. Okay.
[44:34] So Matheson had his crisis of conscience, right? And I think there's stuff to look at, you know, from a messages standpoint. But it was interesting to me, a couple things he said in here.
[44:44] One being, did I not say this because I wanted to, you know, help this person? Or did I not say it because of the new rules for telepaths? And I was like, that's a great, I mean, it's a little, insight into this you know new telepath thing but what a great conundrum like a conundrum that you know a telepath we were able to interrogate a couple challenges for telepaths back with talia and then leta but here just that thing of like i know a thing that i shouldn't know what do i do about that and and i thought it was a really cool scene of him him wrestling with that and how he desperately just wanted to know that his choice to not say anything was the right choice yeah and then we got a little more insight into uh gideon found out he was on a ship called the cerberus i don't think we knew that before i was gonna say i didn't know are we supposed to know this ship from babylon 5 maybe because i i feel like they're talking about this as if we're supposed to know it and i just don't i we what we know is also what we do know is that gideon was on a ship it got blowed up he got out in an ev suit was floating around and watched it so the techno mages were somehow involved in the whole thing. And that's how he and get, that was my assumption is they were talking about that ship. But regardless, Gideon's carrying some guilt from his past over that whole situation.
[46:07] 347 people dead 47. Oh, there you go. Not a reference, just a number in the episode. So it's fine. But yeah, that, that line really made me regret this series and what happened to it. This is one of those episodes where they're starting to like, we learned the stuff about Doreena and being a slave, learned a little more about Matheson and what he wrestles with as a telepath. And then this, this storyline with Gideon and I just, it makes me mad because I know we're not going to like, this is probably all we're ever going to know of that whole thing. You know, it occurs to me like you go back to season one of Babylon five, all the world building episodes that happened and how good some of them actually were.
[46:45] This feels like a good world building episode lays a lot of groundwork that we're you know fast forward two or three seasons all of a sudden arena as a former slave now turned thieve guild person like that's gonna do some stuff for us that they're laying that groundwork here and oh man it does it just this is just i think every episode just makes me a little more sad that it gets canceled because holy cow what a good good series this has turned out to be so we got so spoiled with babylon five actually ending yeah you know and ending so beautifully And so now to transition right into this thing that we know is going to fluff off. It's just like, Oh yeah. But we're here for it. We're here for all 13 episodes that we can get. So totally Jeff, unless you have anything else, I think we have reached that part where we boil this all down and see if this episode has any of those deep moral messages, those sci-fi messages that we talked about earlier today. Is it holding up a mirror to society? Yes. Is it going to be as hope that things can be better in the future? Well, we'll talk about that at the same time. Is it delivering its message in its own unique way? Is it showing us how to be better people to each other? Is it doing the sci-fi stuff? Is it doing it in a crusade way, a Babylon five way? Jeff, what messages did you find in this episode needs of earth? Well, to make this the shortest messages section of all time, it does all those things. There you go.
[48:04] Like it just crams so much in and we talked about some of it during our conversation just a minute ago. And so I won't dive back into that stuff. And there was so much in this, Brent, I'm going to talk about a couple of things and And then I want you to talk about anything else that you might have seen. But I was really struck by a couple of things that stood out in this one. One was we talked about Doreena jeopardizing the mission to free the slaves.
[48:30] But what it hit me, I mean, it's such a cliche at this point, but it is honestly one of the most powerful quotes of our time of be the change you want to see in the world. And that's what she was. She lived in a world where there was no good. she was sold by her own family she was herded into this corridor and whatever as a slave and it was horrible she prayed prayed for release yeah all these years later she was like you ask what's more important right saving this one refugee or the 10 billion people on earth for darina it was making right that thing and showing that there is hope, is hope. Even if you're a slave, I was really struck by that. So be the change that you want to see. If I can, if I can add to that real quick. Yeah. So what I love that Doreena did was she did the things she needed to do on that mission. She still did her job, right? She did her job. And at that point, when she stops, when she turns around to go to the thing, Gideon and others could have continued on without her. True. If she trips, she falls, she gets left behind because she has to go do this thing over here they still can go succeed, she made a personal choice here now they're going to obviously it's going to trip them up because they're going to stop and be oh what are you doing but that's on them they can keep going forward.
[49:51] Darina she didn't she didn't sacrifice or put at risk the mission for her own side thing she made sure that was taken care of first and then went and did her side thing yeah that's a great point because i've been saying jeopardizes the mission but it was ultimately gideon's choice to stop and be like what she's like we're good i'm gonna do this other thing well and and to that point of course gideon's gonna stop and like try to get his people to go back like of course he is we had a an episode i think it was back in appearances and other deceits we had we had a discussion around what's more important than your life what would you be willing to give your life up for and we talked about that quite a bit in that episode but i think we just got a massive example of that with Braytac literally being willing to sacrifice himself to save his culture.
[50:38] And he did it with a smile on his face, right? Like when he got onto that shuttle, he looked Matheson in the eyes and he smiled at him. And he's like, I'm good. This is all I wanted to accomplish. But everything, in my opinion, in this episode revolves around one theme. And we talked about it quite a bit a minute ago, but it's the theme of hope. And we got our first glimpse of it when we saw that pak mara hoping he could dive in, be a part of all the fun that was happening right in front of him, but in all honesty we saw first early on when the ranger was telling them what was what was you know out there if you're willing to do these things this is what's out there and gideon chose hope in that moment right he could have easily said you know that's a lot i don't know i got to protect my crew that puts us at risk but he's like no there's hope that there could be something there i choose hope we're going to do this and then throughout the episode that continued to come up it came up so much in in the culture piece itself when when we were getting nat jock far's little download of everything but dr chambers who i've not been too keen on through this episode just.
[51:53] Of through the whole thing like when they were talking about the data and she was talking about it being you know art and culture she's like science is science like the math every hydrogen is the most abundant you know element in the world and eventually everyone figures out they might give it a different name but they get there the math always works out the same it's this other stuff that really matters and for a scientist for a doctor to be the one delivering the message that you have to have hope to sustain yourself through these things, I thought that was so powerful. And I think that in a time here in 2024 and everything that we've experienced in the last four-plus years where a lot of science has been maligned by public figures and all they care about are the numbers and all they care about is science. But it's like, no, they care about our well-being and our well-being in this case is music, literature, art. And for her to be able to deliver that message and for Gideon to hear it, that scene where first he's so mad, what a waste. We wasted all this for what, for a YouTube download? Like, come on, this is ridiculous. But he went away and thought about it and she was all about it. She listened to everything. She talked about it and he's like, you're right. And I could use some of that hope right now.
[53:20] No one is immune to the need for hope. No one is too important for it. It doesn't matter what your position is.
[53:26] It's arguably the most important thing that you can offer in a lot of cases. Did you have any other thoughts on stuff? I know there's a lot more that happened in this episode. I mean, I had more thoughts, but they're very much in line with yours. So I'll make this particular piece short about Doreena. Why did Doreena have to free the slaves? Because it used to be her and nobody came for her. And there's that whole do one to others and whatnot. You know what I mean? Like, this was me. I know what it is. Nobody came for me. I have to come for these people because it's not okay that people don't come for those who are trapped in slavery. Or to steal a line from Mass Effect and Morden, it had to be me. Anyone else would have messed it up. There you go. It had to be Dorena. I like that. But, I mean, Jeff, I love that you pulled that entire quote of art gives us hope and inspiration. People need this hope and inspiration while we're waiting on science to deliver the math or the cure or whatever. We have to have something to sustain us to keep us going. You know, just within the last few weeks, as we record this, Hurricane Helene has just ravaged its way, not just through Florida, but through Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, up into Tennessee.
[54:40] And we've also just had Milton come across the state and that's done its first share of damage. But I mean, what happened with Helene, particularly in North Carolina in the mountains? This isn't on the coast. I'm talking about the mountains, the way it has ravaged the area in a way that's completely unthinkable in a way that those areas should never have been touched like that. Now, it turns out there was a lot of rain and stuff that's prepped the ground and saturated some stuff. And it was like this perfect storm. But, I mean, Jeff, literally entire towns have been wiped away. Yeah. People dying, people suffering. Even now, as you and I record this, um, kids without parents, kids dying, you know, escaping to roofs. And then in stories of, they didn't make it, people are trying to pick up the pieces. And this came through, I don't know, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, something like that. I'm sorry. I take that back. It came through on a Friday. The next day was Saturday.
[55:36] Now we've just had this, this tragedy across multiple States here in America, across multiple Well, provinces, I guess, would be something of the equivalent in a lot of other countries. But you know what happens here in America on Saturdays, Jeff? What's that? It's college football day. College football, yeah. We watch college football all day long. That's what we do here in America in the fall. Especially down in those hurricane-ravaged areas. Football is life. All over, all of this craziness is happening here. And people sat around watching football. My son played football that day. Now, not those people in that area necessarily, but many of us did. And the ones who weren't in that path, that's what we did. Hey, the next day was then Sunday. You know what Sunday is, Jeff? More football. It's NFL football day from 1 to 11 Eastern time.
[56:25] That's why we don't record on Sundays, by the way. It's what we do all day long. You know, I get up, you know, do what we do in the morning. We try to get home. We get lunch ready, order pizza, whatever you got to do. 1 o'clock games start. There it is. And that game's over about 4. 4 o'clock games start. That game's over about 6.37. Guess what? 8 o'clock games start. Like, we're watching these games all day long. And then the next day was Monday. Jeff, you know what happens on Monday nights in America? Football. More football. Now, that's one thing. There's also movies that are getting released in theaters. People want to see movies. There's plays. There's musical. There's things being performed at these playhouses. There's music concerts. Museums were open. Art galleries were open. Why? Why? In the midst of all this devastation and destruction, we're watching football. We're going to concerts. We're whatever. Why? Because we need art. We need entertainment. We need it to sustain us while we wait on science or the rescue helicopters to do their thing. We cannot, as a society, this is the message. Don't discount the importance of art. I do have to wonder, Jeff, and I truly wonder what was going on in the real world society when this episode was written and filmed, because I do remember hearing a lot back probably about this time where funding was getting cut for schools and principals had to decide, OK, do I pay the science teacher or do I pay the art teacher?
[57:53] Like they had to make the decision. Something's got an art programs are just getting cut left and right. And they still are in many situations. I know there's a theater I work for right here that I do a lot of work for here, and they're losing a $60,000 grant from the state budget this past year. It's an annual grant. That's a lot of money for a theater. That's a full-time salary position right there. That's something. So don't discount art. It is incredibly, incredibly important to society. You inadvertently just give an overview of an incredible interaction in Mass Effect 3 when Joker and Commander Shepard are on the Presidium and talking about the exact same thing. Oh, look, did you know that Blasto-6 comes out this weekend? Yeah. Also, this planet just got destroyed.
[58:39] And those things, and Commander Shepard's like, yeah, that has to happen. That hope truly matters. Well, Brent, we got to dig into the messages, the plentiful messages in this episode and got pretty heavy. There's a lot there to digest, and now we get to pivot into something a little more fun as you. You are the ultimate authority in this moment. You get to add to the 100% objectively definitive, immutable, and solely correct ranking of these episodes of Crusade. Brent, this week we're going to round out our top five. So I'm going to go in reverse order right now. Number four, we have the memory of war. Number three is appearances and other deceits. Number two is war zone. And our number one at this point is the long road. Brent, where do the needs of earth go? Yeah. Well, this certainly is going to be better than memory of war. Our episode from last week. Oh yeah. Now I really liked appearances and other deceits. I thought that was, I thought that was a great, decent episode. Big fan of war zone. Like that. It was the pilot we needed, you know, like I loved that episode. I also, it's still to this day, I loved long road. I had so much fun in that episode.
[59:54] Jeff, I said, this is not an episode that is going to be the one you submit to the awards, but this is a fantastic episode. So for me, I I've got to judge this on which one am I going to watch again first? Where, where is it going to go? So for me, this is now slotting in Jeff to be our new number two. Okay. Right underneath the long road, just above Warzone. And I got to tell you, you could almost put Needs of Earth and Warzone into a bag and shake them up and come out either way and it'd be okay.
[1:00:23] But if you're giving me my druthers, I'm going to watch Needs of Earth over Warzone again. Yeah, I think that you made the correct choice on that one, for sure. But that wraps it up for the Needs of Earth. Next week, we're going to be watching Racing the Night for the first time. We've never seen these episodes before, Warren, one of our favorite games we like to play is guessing what it's going to be about based on the title alone. So, Brent, what do you think is going to happen next week when we watch Racing the Night?
[1:00:52] I think this is one of those episodes where, like, the crew of the Excalibur, you know what? I think this episode is very just sort of bonk, bonk over the head. Like, it's very, this is what the episode's about. So um the crew is going to have to accomplish something by morning some sort of a goal, otherwise it'll all be for naught so they're literally racing the night they have to get it done by sun up or they're all going to turn to stone like they gotta something's gotta happen um oh or this is a sequel to day of the dead oh wow or that one of the two gets a breakary on here and okay let's do it a sequel today i did like that episode that was a fun episode mostly how about you jeff what do you think well i'm in sequel territory right now because when i hear racing the night i he i think about racing mars and so i think we're gonna get an odd couple, episode in this one i think the odd couple is going to be eilerson and matheson when i first thought about this i went really on the nose and like well they'll be on a freighter and they got to get their identity cards and whatever but i think they're just going to be somehow those two get teamed up on a mission and it's just going to be an odd couple sort of a thing that we get set up with a little a little more of a fun episode.
[1:02:07] And I guess we're going to find out right here next week. Thank you, everybody, so much for joining us. Please don't forget to subscribe wherever you're listening to us, watching us, or whatever. Leave us a rating and a review. We might read that review here on the podcast. But the one thing that you can do that will absolutely mean the world to us is share this show in whatever form you're consuming it with somebody who loves Babylon 5, loves Crusade, or needs to experience them, like Brent and myself here, for the very first time. So with that, until next time, we're going to head out of here. Hey, Jeff. Yeah, Brent, what's up? Jeff, so I was going through some movies and was looking for something to watch with the kids. And I need to run some of these titles by you because I'm not sure if these are going to be safe to watch with the kids. Okay. Well, knowing you, you're digging into the Disney trove. Yeah, they sounded like Disney films, and something seems a little off. So first of all, there's a title. We mentioned Snow White and the Seven Narn. I don't know about that one. All right. How about Sleeping Brikiri? Yeah, I don't think that's how that one goes. No. 101 Centauri appendages? Oh, my God. For crying out loud.
