[0:00] Welcome to Babylon 5 for the second time. My name is Brent Allen. And I'm Jeff Akin. Brent and I used to be Star Trek podcasters, but then we watched Babylon 5 for the first time and everything changed. So now we're watching this incredible series for the second time, looking for all those things there was no possible way we could have picked up the first time around. And we are still searching for those sci-fi messages because that's what we do. You know what I mean? We're going to be asking what this episode was trying to tell us.[1:07] Is it giving us hope that things can be better in the future? Is it holding up a mirror to society? Is it showing us how we can be better human beings to one another?[1:14] Anything like that. Those are the stuff we're looking for. Maybe we get something new this time around, Jeff. I don't remember what the messages were from last time around. All of that being said, though, fair warning to everybody out there who's listening to my voice right now. From this point forward spoilers shall abound we are allowed there is no governor on this show whatsoever we are allowed to talk from anything from any episode from any season from any series spinoff or otherwise extra source material novels comic books conventions anything we're allowed to talk about it all right now and we have our delightful council chambers group who is here with us live who will be dropping comments they'll be letting us know some stuff if we missed it as well all of it's fair game all of it's on the table so you have been warned if this is your first time through this series we beg you to stop right now join us for our first watch that's in that's in the the feed you guys can go check that out uh and when you're done with that watch join us here for the second watch and trust us this is a show you want to do it that way absolutely And Brett, we're going to watch this week the episode, The Quality of Mercy, the penultimate episode of the first season. Is it The Quality of Mercy or A Quality of Mercy? It is The Quality of Mercy. TQM. Are you sure? Total Quality Management. Are you sure? Oh, I am sure. There's a For the First Time version of this podcast where we watch this episode, The Quality of Mercy.[2:41] What do you remember were your thoughts? Like, what did you think about this when we watched it the first time? This was an episode that felt like it really could have been placed at any point of the season. It did not have to be in this penultimate episode.[2:54] Position. And honestly, I remember this episode feeling weird given where we are in this season. Like we've had the two-parter voice in the wilderness where we got a new battery for the machine down there. We've just had Babylon Squared, which is just this, oh, we've got the season finale coming up next week. This has to be a big episode, right? Now we would later learn and kind of catch this pattern of how the end of the season's roll on Babylon 5, but this episode just felt really out of place. That's what I remember thinking about this episode. Outside of that, I thought it was a fine episode. Of course, this machine, it comes back later and sort of plays a secondary role. It didn't come back and do something like super spectacularly great that saved the day. And it didn't have to, it was fine, but you know, it was really something that was brought into play kind of after the dust had settled. If that, if that makes sense, you know, in speaking with what it did with Garibaldi and then, and then Ivanova, like it was, it was neat to see it come back yeah you know what i mean uh did we absolutely have to have this particular chapter to have that pay off later no not necessarily but it's a fine episode out of listen you got 22 episodes you got to fill them up with something right and this is this is a good entry like of the of the episodes this this will be i would imagine among among the the better of them but the overall weighted significance i remember just it was it was good it was fine.[4:21] Just weirdly out of place. How about you, Jeff? What was your first response to this episode? Well, I think this was very much a floor on the tower of Jeff hates Dr. Franklin. That's just really built on that. I hated everything about how he showed up in this episode. But I also remember loving Londo and Lanier, like the two of them and, you know, like Londo taking him under his wing and being like, we're going to do some mess. This is the one. This is the one. This is the. Listen, folks, we hold a PG-13 rating here at Babylon 5 for the second time. And today's episode might contain some content sensitive to younger viewers. Viewer discretion is advised. But all in all, I think I felt similarly. I think this was an okay episode is how I remember thinking about it and just hated Franklin, loved Londo and Lanier.[5:12] Like it's not a bad episode. Like I could watch this episode. It's a laundry episode. Right. It's what I call a laundry episode. If you're new here, a laundry episode is you're doing laundry. You have it on in the background while you're doing laundry and it's there and you're fine. You're not going to change the channel. You're just watching the episode while you're holding clothes and halfway paying attention. Now, Jeff, that's what we remembered on our first watch, right? I actually went back and listened to our original episode though. And that may be what you remember saying, but I know what you actually said. Okay. Following this episode. Would you care to find out? Yeah, I'd love to. You liked it. Especially, and I'm probably going to, the Mueller stuff. Okay. Is that the, is that the, the, the convict? I think so. Yeah. It's happening. Mueller. Was that his name? That's really, you didn't really mention all the Londo and, and. Oh.[6:01] Lanier stuff. You talked about him. All right. That was the part on your original response that you really liked. I really dug into the – it just felt wildly out of order. Also, most of season one could have been watched it in really any order. So sort of kept with that, with that theme, which by the way, also I'll just note is what Jameis was also saying about season one. Yeah. Well, and also, yeah. And that's as Nia says in the council chambers chat, depending on how you choose to watch it, this doesn't have to be the penultimate episode. Right. Right. I declared, I made a full declaration in this episode, Jeff. Wow. Okay. I do not like Franklin. Right. I made this a full declaration and you and I both went really, really hard on Franklin. Like, here's the thing. You and I watch Franklin now through the, through the sleeping and light eyes. He's playing tennis with Garibaldi's daughter. He's uncle Steve, you know, like, like we love this guy. And I'm like, I dare you hate him. He's yeah. He's a little cringe, but he's cool though. We like him. I was, I was kind of mad at us. We spent a lot of time bashing on him, and we had a long, long conversation about it.[7:13] JMS had some stuff to say about this episode, as I understand it, Jeff. You went and found what he had to say. I did. Why don't you fill us in on some of the things that JMS had to say? Well, I buckled in because of a thing you shared before we came on mic. You should buckle up now because, Brent, JMS had a lot to say about this episode. So we knew going into this that. I'm sorry.[7:36] Ben over in Council Chambers says, hide your kids, hide your wife, hide your husband, because Dr. Stephen Franklin's out there.[7:46] You're not wrong. He is not wrong. We knew that this was an episode that JMS wrote when he was very sick and has no memory of writing it. I feel like he did that with a handful of episodes. Is that true? So there was a voice in the wilderness that was impacted from this illness that he had, but this one he just has no memory of whatsoever. But didn't this also happen in like season five or something like that as well? Maybe it was – Maybe it was – Gray 17 is missing. Maybe there was something about that. Also, to have like two weeks out of 110 where you're a little off, that's okay. And he had to recover from some major stuff in the middle of things. Like, I don't know, the lead of your show leaving, or I don't know, getting canceled, wrapping up your entire show and then getting uncanceled. So you got to reboot the whole dang thing. And then somebody throws away your notes in the hotel trash bin. It's a little bit to come back from that. But what he said cracked me up. He's like, uh, this is the only script that he has ever written that he's not a hundred percent thrilled with.[8:54] In fact, he's only 90% thrilled with it. And that's mostly because of the Londo and Lanier stuff. Okay. Fair enough. That's what JMS had to say about this one. Brent, I am curious what you're going to have to say about this one. What do you say we watch it? Let's do it. If you're joining us for the first time, welcome. Hello. We're excited to have you here. What's about to happen is we're going to watch the episode, not pause the video and step away and watch it on our big, nice TVs with sound systems and stuff. No, no. Who wants to watch a show like that? For real. No, we're going to do it the way it was meant to be watched on a small, tiny little box on our screen, just like JMS intended. This is exactly the way it was supposed to be. But we're going to do that right now. If you're watching us on YouTube, you're going to see that edited and cut up for the YouTube stuff. If you want to see the full and unedited version of this incredible conversation we've already been having, you can see that over at patreon.com slash Babylon 5 first. That's the number five and the word first. And if you're listening to us on the audio podcasting app, you're going to hear that reaction. And then we're going to meet you on the other side where we're going to share our thoughts and talk about new messages we've uncovered. So with that, Jeff, let's get to it. Let's make it so. Accessing file. And so you understand our concern, Malani, as well as preventing. Is it Joakim at Jokerson?[10:19] We get him in this episode. Okay. Sorry. In this episode, you know what's amazing, the way they set this up? Look over Londo's shoulder. Oh, my God. How brilliant is that? There's the idol right there. Because we know what's getting ready to happen. Oh, man. Brilliant. He must continue to forge good relations with possible allies. Poor guy. Yes, I understand, but it's not an easy process. I will see what I can do. Thank you. The assistant to an ambassador should know everything he can about the other species here on Babylon 5. Yes, I've been doing quite a bit of reading since my arrival. Reading? Yes. Reading is no subject for a spirit. He's all proud of himself. Yeah. Tell you what, it is an imposition on my busy schedule. I will take you under my wing and fill the gaps in your education. He's so generous. And for the next two days, I will show you the Babylon 5 that I know. He's basically, until your mom gets home, we're going to do some stuff. I don't know, Ambassador. Oh, my good, dear friend. Trust me.[11:28] The defendant, Carl Edward Mueller. You know, it's amazing that this guy is still doing his job after the experience he had. Right? An unprovoked murder of two of this station's residents, as well as the brutal and senseless slaying of a security officer. This poor actor. This court has reviewed the charges against you. It's the one role he's always cast in. Ever. In light of that evidence, this quote finds you.[11:54] The sentence will be handed down at 10 a.m. tomorrow, Earth Standard Time. And may God have mercy upon your soul. He's so great at that role, though, too. Yeah, sure he is.[12:10] Is this the underground clinic? Yeah. The line forms at the rear. I'm sure it does. That's what she said. Oh, I'm sorry. Please go right in. I'll buzz the doctor. You know, this is such a well-established clinic, he actually has a receptionist. There you go. Take two every 12 hours for the pain. If it comes back, you come back and see me, all right? Doing my job. Your job is chief of staff for the med lab facility. No, my job is healing people. Med labs aren't free. Not everyone can afford to come for treatment, especially in down below. They have my sympathies, but this is an unauthorized clinic. So authorize it. Same thing. The taxpayers back home expect us to be self-supporting. They wouldn't approve of diverting medicines, supplies, resources. I know. That's why I didn't tell you. I don't like having to hear about this in the grapevine, doctor. Fine. But right now, there are about a dozen people out there waiting to see me. What's hard is knowing the franklin that we know i love that he's doing this yeah this is incredible but the first time around it's just like the testicularis on this guy like.[13:07] There you go i i love what avonava is saying here like everything she's saying makes total sense she's not mad she's not pissed off but she's also like look you can't divert these things to something free because we've got to be able to support ourselves like she makes a very valid point all the way around yeah it doesn't mean he can't hold a free clinic though you just can't use the supplies from above unless we pay for them let's you figure that part out oh like like how like so he's it's one of those things where it's like hey this is great you're willing to use your skill and your talent are you willing to put your money where your mouth is or get some other funding hey you know i heard this is a really rich guy out on mars edgars william edgars that guy uh he might he might give you some money to fund a clinic down here that'd be fine he could brand it and everything like yeah yeah but i think what we also realize is on babylon five you know it doesn't exist socialized medicine yeah not even a little bit there's no medicaid there's no medicare you know you're on your own so yeah and labs not free and i say we space the creep i'm losing my cachet around here vacuum and do him in the gene pool a world of good If you don't mind my saying so, Mr. Garibaldi, you seem to be taking this very personally. The way he killed him, cool, methodical. He's done this before. I'd bet good money he's done this a lot. But you have no evidence to that effect. Spacing is only invoked under conditions of mutiny or treason. For the grime of murder, there are only three penalties. Take the drugs, join psych, or go to prison.[14:36] Is to send him to a prison back to earth i checked they don't want him and they won't pay the money to send him anywhere else and there isn't room in the brig for the perps we've got now let alone putting somebody away for life which leaves us only option three and that brings us back to you miss winters i don't want to do this again i was inside a killer's mind before on the mars colony there's got to be another way if you could get another registered telepathian that would be an interesting story i've tried the court the time she did it the first time yeah you know just like a little side story of what happened yeah we got a glimpse right when the vicar was and kosh were doing their thing with her but um but to dive in and see because we actually get the story of muller yeah in this one yeah unfortunately there's a shortage of telepaths trained in criminal cases why seems like there'd be a lot of demand for that oh there's demand just not much motivation just leave your contribution in the box by the door on your way am thank you you know in some cases you can actually want to be that way bon jovi has a restaurant in new jersey like that plus he gets to feed people that don't have homes and stuff it's win-win this is uh alien yes right hey jeff is this organic tech the specifics.[15:51] Would this qualify as organic tech i don't think so it's not alive itself yeah i mean it just it It interfaces with a person pretty intimately, but yeah, you're right. You're right. It restores, renews, invigorates. Who is this lady again, Jeff? She's somebody. Yeah, she's on Lost in Space with Bill Women. My mother is not a fake, or an evil woman, or a quack. You didn't tell me that you didn't ask. You didn't ask. The age difference between there. Doctor, my mother isn't hurting anyone. Yes, she is. If she's discouraging people from seeking proper treatment. Don't like the competition, Doctor? I have a problem with frauds. I'm sorry. I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask you to leave. The personality of Carl Edward Mueller will be totally and completely erased. You will then be programmed with a new set of memories for the rest of your natural life. We'll serve the community hard by your actions. You know, so two thoughts. I feel like this actually might have been an original thought from a thought that we had in the original deal. I'm a big fan of somebody having to serve the community that they've harmed. Yeah. Restorative justice.[16:52] I do not – I believe that jail should be reserved only for those who are imminent dangers to society. Yeah, to themselves or others. Mm-hmm. And outside of that, putting somebody in jail does no good. At all. It really doesn't. All jail and prison do is train criminals.[17:12] It creates more harm than good, right? Um now that being said the other side of that though is is maybe helping the community that they harmed while i love the justice of that it also is maybe not the best idea because i mean that'd be like that'd be like um somebody who murdered a person's family member now coming and like cleaning that person's house like you maybe don't need to be the one in this particular group but you go be with that group over there helping them so yeah that community and then maybe their person comes over and helps yours like like there may be something there that that while i love the idea i think the reality of this person being in town of the community he's harmed might not be the best idea also he's going to get shanked like brother edward did right exactly but the reality is in the in the construct of restorative justice both parties are a they have to agree so if like someone murdered a member of my family and they're like hey we want to bring you all together this person wants to apologize wants to make and do all this stuff i get to say yes or no i can say no i don't want any part of that now that doesn't stop restorative justice from happening like you said they can go into another community and do good right because restorative justice is about bridging the gap that was created by the harm you did. And it doesn't have to be direct.[18:35] I took this person out of the world. I'm not going to replace that person. But how do I fill in the whole of that person no longer being alive and part of our society? So I think it's a yes and, right? If you want them in your house cleaning and stuff and you're actively engaged in the restorative justice, not vengeance, but justice part of it? Cool. Awesome. If you're not also cool, awesome. We'll do it over here. But regardless of the thing you said up top is the thing. Jail, punitive quote justice doesn't work. It never has. It never will. Darkstar. That's a cool name. I don't remember. I don't remember that. That name. Got a place here in Portland called the Darkstar Tattoo Parlor. I like that sign back there. I'm really not sure that this is a good idea. Oh, nonsense. Dude, he might as well be leaning back and unzipping.[19:37] Clumsy me. Don't suppose you brought yours, huh? Well, yes, I did, but... The master at work. My allowance is very small. Don't apologize. We'll make do. It's just that I don't think the lend... Thank you lanier just changed his mind yourself a nice tip he's a very generous man thanks because my people do not react well at all to alcohol even a small quantity causes psychotic impulses violent homicidal rages.[20:13] Is he lying lanier yeah you would think right it makes sense almost here but it comes up again like it gets mentioned in other places i really i really want him just to be screwed with with londo right here lanaire doesn't have the capacity at this also linear is so innocent at this point he really might not be like but what i love is we literally saw the moment the innocence began to die in him those pants dropped and he was a changed man well i the moment was when he was working on that motorcycle and went sexual prowess that's where it all started for him all the pieces are falling into place is it isn't that where it starts for every 12 year old just saying for the first time i see hope in her eyes janice her machine doesn't work how do you know have you tested it examined it no but if it was real why are you still here why aren't you back on earth so she can show everyone her new discovery we don't have the money yes you do i checked the station log your account has enough credits for two tickets back to her but she doesn't know that does she.[21:13] You don't want her to know. You don't want anyone to know. Doctor, my mother is not a young or a well woman. At most, she has a few years left. I never want to see her as she was before, defeated and lost and hopeless. She's a healer again, and that's all that matters. A lot of conversation in the chat going on I want to bring up, and talking about how all of the doctors use stims, right? We got it from Dr. Kyle in the pilot episode. We get it later on with Dr. Franklin. We get it from her. We get it from President Clark's doctor in Hunter Prey, I think, is when we find out about that or at some point. But we were talking earlier about there's no socialized medicine at all. It's still very much for profit. Now, they don't have the whole bureaucracy of, like, getting the right diagnosis codes and insurance, doing prior authorizations and whatever. So it's a step up on what we have. but clearly they still have a toxic and horrible culture for doctors where they're working 12 to 24 to 48 or 72 hours at a time. That doesn't seem any different than today. Exactly.[22:14] Just saying things have not medically things have not gotten that much better. And they, you know, and I guarantee you a big piece of that is they keep pumping in. How many patients a day are you saying? Right. You're running through. Are you, are you know, your notes got to be crappy in order to see so much. You're not actually doing your work. you're missing stuff and and you're exhausted and worn out and they they do that to them in training on purpose yeah like psych screening almost like are you gonna pack it living like this yeah it's it's uh it's it's not as fun as people like to make it seem right it's really not we have a medical culture that's about the quantity of widgets not the health of people take away my thoughts my memories everything that makes me me i like this suzanne points out it's like the policeman's badge when they have lost a fellow officer they put the band over it put me to work for the rest of my life mopping floors cleaning simular if you continue this i will have to ask the guards to restrain you is that what you want talking if he continues talking, Pretty much. He's apparently lost his right to an opinion and to voice that opinion.[23:24] Well, I mean... She's supposed to be a P5, is that right? I think so. But she's like on steroids with the gift that dude gave her. Yeah, she just doesn't realize it yet. Yeah. Well, yeah, she does. She flung a penny into the wall, man. Look into my eyes.[23:45] She's just like god again.[23:51] I don't i don't understand her reaction how many worlds i really don't i imagine how many banks that she's getting both like the information and the feeling and not like you know because i mean that's just i mean yeah i mean have you ever been to like a holocaust memorial or a war memorial of some kind and just list the names right but there's still that like oh my god like that was a person and they're dead right but you take that as solemn and somber she's taking it as like freaking out like oh my god no no not like that no don't like that like name the movie what i just referenced come on jeff yeah i'm i'm batting zero for this it's the matrix oh yeah yeah no no not like that how many flowers waiting to be harvested yeah i agree with susan talia's a lightning into my choir i have to keep adding voices until the choir is big enough to sing me into heaven when i die it's necessary it's almost like that vincent d'onofrio movie the cell where like you get in the mind it's just overwhelming beginning is because she's like part of him in that moment look at that face, Stay. Stay for the symphony.[25:15] We'll save a place for you. Your daughter thinks that she's doing the right thing, that if we show her that people's conditions are actually getting worse because of the lack of proper treatment, this can't be right. You sure these are the same patients who've been going to see Rosa? Absolutely. Why? Because my theory says they'd be getting worse. Uh-huh. She loves me very much, it seems. God knows why. Because she's your daughter. Take a look at it. I know some people that might be able to help. Oh, no. Doctor, this has been my whole life for the last two years. No, if there's a discovery here to be made, I will make it on my own terms. Doctor, this is my last chance to do good. Please, let me finish what I've started. I love his curiosity. I love his compassion right here. If anything should happen, please. Before I finish, the machine can go to you and you can carry on. On one condition, Janice is to know nothing of this. Agreed? All right. If you come to med lab once a week for exams, I want to be able to monitor your condition. And I reserve the right to intervene if you start to push yourself too far too fast. He's like, you can come to the med lab. I've seen how much money you have. Because I have access to your accounts for some reason. Right? I remember we had that discussion the first time around, too. Until then, doctor. Oh, look at that. Like, just being called doctor again. That was a great scene. That was incredible. No, just checking in. She's a good woman, Janice. You should be proud. And he honors her request not to tell Janice anything. I always have been. It's nice to hear somebody else say that.[26:43] Willingly eating my words from our first time. If you ever want to take a break, I'd love to buy you dinner. Well, until now.[26:53] Going down, Chief? Nah, heading up, Lou. You want to take your hands off Lou? Now I'm holding the maintenance. Head back to security. Work your way down to the next level. What the hell? You? You cheating? No, no, no. I'm sure there's been a terrible mistake. Cheating! No, no, no, no, no, no.[27:17] Yeah, first time we see bad A. Lanier. This is the Lanier we love. I think we should leave now. A very good idea. I'll just take my winnings. I think not. We'll go now. It's not good. JMS mentioned, I'm going to take it back a little bit, in the notes, that he wanted the sound of a whip crack when it came around. And they said they got the loudest whip crack they could, and they turned it up as loud as they could in the mix, and he rolls on the floor every time he hears it. You you team no no no i'm sure that's been a terrible mistake rose if a man shows up down there with a pbg wound you notify me immediately understood at this point he'd be the only patient we've had all day words getting out about that quack in her healing machine look she's not a even standing up for her there around 27 g if he doesn't hear from me in 20 minutes tell him to sit in a team will do laura miss rosen it's dr franklin laura treatment is quite astonishing doctor but once the procedure is finished it never hurts to have a second opinion or a second hostage you promised you'd let her go if i helped you it seems such a waste though does it not then i refuse to continue you don't finish the job or she dies now.[28:28] It's like, he won't miss and neither will I. Right? What are you doing? Stop it! Or I... You'll do nothing with that pain you're feeling. That agony. That's Lake's syndrome. Your veins. She's got a mean streak. Yeah, she does.[28:52] Yeah. anyone again do you hear me oh he's dead of old age this court has reviewed all of the evidence provided by the office of station security ben it is the judge she does pain so much better acted in self-defense i've taken a life in direct violation of my oath as a doctor i'm free of pain i had a big conversation about this whole idea right here first time around so i'm not going to rehash it yeah all i'm simply going to say is i stand by everything i said in the first one I hate when writers do stuff like this for doctors. The whole misquote and misuse of the Hippocratic Oath. Yep, yep. She did. There is nothing she did that any other physician wouldn't have done and wouldn't have felt a bit of guilt about. I'm free from Lake Syndrome. I mean, outside of the Oath thing, I like how they played that out. I bring in glad tidings. Oh, good. I can use some. When we were at the gaming table, somehow a part of you reached out for the cards. yes yes what was that.[30:01] Yes it's true yes here lee goddess of passion a synthesis of male and female centara did you think these were just decorations i'm going to take a vow of silence concerning this entire conversation. Good day. The beginning of a give and take relationship with Wando and Lanier. But they're okay. Somewhere out there is what I need to redeem myself. Yes, I do. And I'm going to find it. The cruiser leaves in half an hour. I would ask you to look after my daughter. Oh, look after her, right? That won't be a problem. Goodbye, Doctor. Make sure you get consent first. Looking for step franklin doesn't seem to care about to go with your mom is that dinner invitations go yeah yeah it's still up seven so cool it's a better time than eight.[31:02] Music.[31:07] Yeah. All right, Brent, that's the quality of mercy for the second time. What do you got? Pretty much feel about this the same way I did the first time around. It's an okay episode. It's not great. It's fine. It's not bad. I kind of wish I had some laundry to do while I was doing it. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of do.[31:26] Yeah. It, it, it, you know, there are parts about it. I like, there are other parts that were just there, you know? I will, I will say this. uh franklin is in this episode who franklin is stop the presses quote me okay franklin is who franklin is but he did not seem like a creep in this one he really didn't he didn't seem like a jerk he didn't seem like an asshole he was just doing his thing man you know so i thought he was doing his thing well yeah yeah absolutely absolutely i loved the way ivanova came in and kind of cracked down on him but was not like dropping the hammer on the man not at all you know um i i with like you i love the londo and linear stuff it's gold unfortunately you don't get much more londo and levier linear it would have been really neat to see when linear was going through his whole delin thing if he would have been able to reach out to londo yeah what would have happened how would that have changed you know um okay let's play the game jeff okay Lanier's got it bad for Dylan. She's married to dude and Lanier can't seem to get over it. And he's about to go off to be a Ranger and follow the calling of his heart that we all know is a bunch of bull into Orlando. What happens?[32:44] Londo pulls him aside and he tells the story of the the horseman that he's married and the one who got away right and that despite all of that it's okay now i'm going to take you out we're going to get some water and i'm going to get some drinks and he's going to show him a good time but he's basically gonna he's gonna mentor him oh yes yes lady ladera right my the love of my life who was murdered and started a whole war. This dancer chick that I was married to and then had to leave immediately because of my family. Our lives are full of loves that come and go. And in the end, this isn't where Londo would go, but this is Jeff as Londo to bring it back to what Dr. Rosen was saying at the end, loves will come and loves will go. But really the only love that matters is the one you have for yourself because Because everything you need is right here. And it was here all along inside yourself. You didn't have to go looking for it. No, no, no, no, no. You know what that is? Londo goes and gets Lanier and his buddy Jakar tags along. Oh, man. And that's Jakar chiming in. Because you know what Londo is trying to do?[33:57] Londo is trying to get the boy laid. Yeah. He's like, come with me, my good dear friend. I know what will fix this for you. Londo and Jakar roll up with Lanier and Lita's over there and he's like Lita why don't you get into the car with us and Lita's like yeah it's not gonna happen and Jakar's like be really cool if you did alright alright alright.[34:21] But yeah I mean you know I can see why JMS might not be 100% thrilled with this episode but it's not bad this is not great you know what I mean like it's just there how about you jeff i i think the londo linear stuff was great yeah and i think it was great on its own clearly loved it the first time around but i think knowing what they have and knowing where londo ends up and i know this wasn't intentional but having verini there at the beginning is like this this moment of this is the future that's coming and so if you're watching this on a second third or 47th time plants that seed and then you see londo laughing joking with the with the servers and just i mean just whipping it out and doing and you're just like god this is this is londo you know this is him at his best and knowing where he goes like it just it's very powerful i think i said it during the episode it breaks my heart to see see this happen but the uh.[35:25] The other stuff, the Mueller stuff, I still think was really interesting. It did exactly what JMS wanted it to do. It sparks discussion, questions. What is the right thing? There was a real through line in the episode of capital punishment, whether it was the quality of mercy machine or the mind wipes or whatever it was. And I think that's a conversation and debate that we will have for centuries to come. But I don't know if I liked it better or worse than I did the first time around. But what I know is coming out of this, I'm like, I really like this episode. Really like this episode. And I like it in terms of this. This isn't necessarily a great Babylon 5 episode. This is just a great, fun sci-fi episode.[36:08] You're right. This episode, pick this out of Babylon 5, drop it in any sci-fi series. This could be Stargate. This could be Star Trek. This could be Battlestar Galactica, quite frankly, with you. This would fit really well in Battlestar Galactica now that I think. You know um yeah i'm gonna name those three but yeah this this could this could work you're absolutely right yeah it's just it's a good one okay so real quick though jms said that his intent was to have and spark this debate about capital punishment versus mine wipes and and all that sort of stuff looking at this thing as a whole i think i'm kind of of the opinion that the option they chose the mine wipe is probably the best of all the options yeah and i'm sure if i was living on a planet and this is the way we did things captain picard and it's going to be picard it's not gonna be anybody else picard's gonna show up and he's gonna be like well it's the exact same things killing them and da da da da right um but just straight up killing them doesn't do any good right nobody benefits from you know i mean it might make somebody feel better but it's it's it's not gonna do you any good all right uh throw him in jail this might be a guy that should be in jail.[37:17] Right. But it's not about punishment. It's about removing him from society where he is clearly a danger. Right. Yep. Also, what did we find out though? You go into his mind and says, I have to keep adding to the chorus until they can sing me into heaven. This dude has a belief about something. This dude has something going on in his head that says that this is the way, this is the thing to do. This isn't just pure evil. There's something in him where this is justified and this is not just justified but but actually mandated on a holy level there's something about needing to quite frankly correct that or to unwrite that or whatever that is in his brain and i'd be really interested to explore that well i want to lay what rosen and garibaldi said at the end for him.[38:04] It wasn't the right thing it was the necessary thing maybe he doesn't want this like maybe he doesn't think it's the right thing but it's necessary and he believes that to such a point that's where the vitriol right and the passion you're all dead you'll all be dead not because he thinks it's the right thing to do and he wants to do it but because it's the only way he can get to heaven it's a necessary step for him like he's trapped he's in a bad spot where he's believing that exactly so now now you're in a mental health situation you know so can we help him on a mental health level maybe maybe not i i mean yeah i don't know so of all the options available or we keep you alive you get a new personality you get to serve out and and be here and frankly he gets offered a second chance right so i i think i'm of the mindset that that was that's the better choice to go with it's it's the most it seems to me the most humane choice and again this would make a perfect star trek episode because they would they would posit that question and and turn it over yeah they'd interrogate it heavily and i think yeah and i think you know as i think about where it would go i think it's where i i land with it i think i think that the mind wipe is the way to go but i think there's a step missing earlier in the episode in the council chambers chat i think it was nia brought up like there's where's the rush like if talia really doesn't want to do this they can put him in a cell lock him down and wait for psychor to find somebody else like why does this have to happen.[39:31] Tonight you know and so like that opens up to me where maybe what you do is.[39:38] Approach it from a mental health place first but what we know about mental health.[39:43] Is it that's not okay nia says it wasn't wasn't her that said it somebody said it but um no nia said it was her who said it oh there wasn't it look at that reading english apparently is a challenge for me at this time, but, um.[39:58] But put them in a place and approach it from a mental health place. What we know is the person has to want to become healthy for a mental health treatment to work. So it's one of the things we're going to try it. We're going to give you, you know, the, all of the tools necessary to, to, to heal from this thing. And if you're not game for that, then we do the mind wipe and yeah. And I, and I do think, you know, JMS asked the question there's no brain activity or you tweak the brain activity i think there's still death that's occurring and that's not great but it's better than complete and total death even if it's irreversible yeah even if it's irreversible there's a part of me that wishes that like that nor like the the original you is still there somewhere so it can experience the whole thing but that opens up so much now we've seen that episode way too many times right that's that's that's make chief O'Brien suffer. Like.[40:53] That's that type of it we've seen that and that doesn't that doesn't go well and here's what's going to happen that personality is going to push back to the front and take over again and then things are going to be even worse than they were before because now it's not just necessary now it's the right thing yeah yeah so i don't know i i think that's there i will say this though i did love this i loved i love this thing about linear and i kind of i don't know i sort of fixated on it and this is i want to admit so we've just watched this episode jeff this is still a half-baked idea okay like i i need to sit with this one a little bit more and kind of really think it through but there's something here lanier says that he was raised in the temple and then he came here and there's nothing else there's always something else there's always more to you than.[41:36] Where you were raised and now you're here yeah you are there's there's so much more to lanier as a person and the one good thing through this whole deal is londo is helping him explore that there was something that was awakened in lanier back when he's working on that motorcycle and he saw sexual prowess right absolutely you know and this is lanier beginning to explore beyond that and and become more of i guess really himself and not just this.[42:02] Cloistered person whom he's been this whole time you know so i i really quite love that and londo's for for better or worse he's gonna pull it out of him and i think there's a big message here of watch who you let influence you yeah you know londo's nice londo's his friend londo's the only one showing him attention right now londo in this situation is going to lead him down the wrong path but he robbed him right oh i seem to have forgotten my credit shit he used him all of those sorts of things almost got him drunk like got him beat up a little bit got him yeah got him arrested yeah but i i think it's clear to say by the end of this episode lanier was probably more alive than he's ever been right jeff did you catch any new messages out of this nothing more than we've already talked about all right well there you go there it is so jeff we are with that then doing the thing that we do best we're doing our favorite thing that we do here at babylon 5 for the second time that is to watch the episode but then to place it in our 100 completely accurate definitive.[43:07] Ranking of season one babylon 5 on the second watch because it's different it's different this time around our current top five jeff ah this isn't going to be in the top five i don't think so you're going to get to place it jeff you get to do it and i don't have anything to say about it, Um, I'm going to make a guess here. I'm going to go with the, our middle five. All right. We got, we got 19 episodes on the board. I'm going to go right around our middle. Number seven right now is believers followed. Number eight by TKO. Number nine is by any means necessary. 10 parliament of dreams, 11 born to the purple and 12 midnight on the firing line, 13 legacies. That was more than five, but whatever, Jeff, am I in the right zone or do you've got a whole other place to place this episode of quality of mercy when we did our season one complete objective definitive ranking of the first time the quality of mercy was the ninth episode on the season was ranked number nine yeah it is not going to be number nine okay in this one we've changed it up quite a bit in fact it was just uh it was just uh under signs and portents which we had at number eight and now we have it at that at number two yeah so we yeah we've seen a couple things differently and so when I looked at this, I had it like right in that zone.[44:20] I'm like, yeah, this is exactly where at the top of that zone actually. And I was wrestling, wrestling with TKO even as to like, oh, is it going to be above or below TKO? And the answer to that question, Brent, is it is going to be below TKO and further below than I thought it was going to be. Oh, wow. It's, it's going to be the new number 11.[44:46] Just over born to the purple and under parliament of dreams.[44:50] And a big reason for that is I think that the born to the purple, what we love about born to the purple is the Londo stuff. Right.[44:58] And I think that what that did in the born to the purple was enabled the Londo stuff that we saw here. It gave it so much more, right. Like it was the thing for it. And, and this was just excellent. So yeah, quality of mercy in at number 11. Yeah. I, I think this group right here, um quality mercy born of the purple midnight firing line legacies and eyes and maybe not eyes maybe legacies i'm gonna stop with legacies that's kind of that's a group where i think you kind of throw them in a bag and shake them up and pull one out and that you'll you'll be fine um i think that's a solid group right there and then you know you go parliament of dreams up to maybe believers that's another group you know then we have our top six which is a that i don't think you can throw those into a bag and shake them up but you know that's still a good group so yeah i'm with you jeff i'm with you wouldn't matter if i wasn't it's the way it works i am if it makes you feel better well folks that's gonna do it for us right here on quality of mercy next week jeff next week season finale i'm so ready to get to this i'm so ready to get to this and i gotta tell you what knowing what we know in many ways in many ways jeff the show doesn't get started till sheridan shows up for real this is this is all prequel like we haven't it doesn't feel like we've really started the show yet this is all laying there which is why i guess what's supposed to happen in the introduction where you're building your world and all that sort of stuff.[46:23] But it really is filled. So I'm ready to get in because we're going to take another step function. Now, I know that first half of season two, at least my memory is really great. A little rough. But I'm ready to make it. And we finally get the Dylan that we know. Like, you know what I mean? Like, we can start moving down those paths. So I'm ready to get on and glad to see the season finale is upon us.[46:49] Jeff, I have a question for you, though. Yeah. Do you remember what you predicted Chrysalis was going to be our first time around? I do. And, uh, and, and when I, when I think about it, I, I think that I was just like basically three seasons early with my prediction. Cause I thought that the Chrysalis thing was going to be bigger than Sinclair is going to be bigger than Delenn. This was going to be like a social upheaval of the Minbari, something, uh, genetic. That's a really big deal about the minbari but not all minbari you know maybe like people being children of valen or something like that that we realize you know later on in season four of this whole thing what did you predict i'm gonna i'm gonna read it exactly as i had it written down okay it's about sinclair and there's a transformation maybe even going into a cocoon and transforming i also wanted the full unfiltered unedited truth and answer to the battle of the line and why the minbari chose sinclair to run babylon five i don't remember if we get that in this particular episode season two episode one in a monologue from linear there it is but going into a cocoon and transforming yeah.[48:06] Yeah. And also the word chrysalis, how could it not be something like that? Well, and also Sinclair does do that two seasons from now. It does. We were just that far ahead. And he just does it backwards. Exactly. He just does it the other way around. I like it. I like it. Cool. We are going to find out. I'm excited. Closing out season one. We're going to do that right here next week. Thank you everyone for joining us so much. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you are listening or watching. Leave us a rating or review. If you're able to do that, comment if you can do that likes all the stuff do all of the things but if you will follow the calling of your heart to which there is no higher calling share this show share the show with somebody who needs to watch babble on five for both the first second and maybe even the 47th time so with that i'm going to wrap up we're going to get out of here yeah brent what's up, uh is it is it is it just me or is it cold in here no it feels pretty temperate pretty okay, It doesn't explain the shrinkage. Here, take a look at this. Oh, no, dude, just stroke off. I mean, we're not some deep space franchise. This station is about something. You're a dirty man, Jeffrey. Yeah, because there's a couple layers to stroke off. You're a dirty man, Jeff Aiken. I just want this to be on record. He wrote that.
