Jeff: Welcome to Babylon 5 for the first time, not a Star Trek podcast.
My name is Jeff Akin and I am the one who was,
Brent: And I'm Brent Allen, and I am the one who will be.
Jeff: and we are watching Babylon five for the first time for you, the one who is.
Brent: Jeff and I are two veteran Star Trek podcasters, searching for those important messages that Babylon five is delivering in its own unique way.
Jeff: That's right. We're looking for those Babylon five messages, not those Star Trek messages. And since this is not a Star Trek podcast, we've decided that we will have the rule of three. This limits us to no more than three references to Star Trek per episode in total. Not a piece, but total of three references or less.
That's it. Those no substitutions, exchanges a refund. And if we do make one of those references, you're gonna hear this.
Brent: That's right, because while this is most definitely not a Star Trek podcast, those references may slip in from time to time. Now, along with our game, the rule of three, another game we like to play at the end of the show is where we try to guess what next week's episode is gonna be about based on title alone.
Well, this is the spot where it's time to play.
Jeff: Time to pay the piper
Brent: And this is where we revisit our prediction from last week to see if we got it right in time to pay the Piper. Jeff. So I will ask you, my friend, what did you say the very long night of Londo Malari was gonna be about and how close were you?
Jeff: that Londo is headed to. Centa Prime was gonna be named emperor and was gonna be tormented by memories and, uh, the trauma of the shadows and cartia in the, his time that he, uh, he spent last time he was on the home world.
Brent: I'm gonna give you half a point on this one. 50% because he certainly was tormented by memories of everything
Jeff: you go.
Brent: I'm gonna get. I'm gonna give that piece to you.
Jeff: Cool. What about you? What did you think?
Brent: Well, I said that this was Londo gonna be emperor. I think I later amended it. Uh, maybe even for the Brent watches video, like this is maybe the eve of his coronation or something like that.
It's basically first night on the job. And all he wants to do is get some sleep. But he ca but he ke but he keeps getting interrupted with affairs of state, you know? And, and it just almost like a comedy, uh, it just ensues over the course of the, uh, course of the episode. Everything's just going wrong and he keeps getting woken up in the middle of the night.
That's exactly what I said it was gonna be. And
Jeff: Well, it had alondo in it and, um, and he, and he kind of kept getting interrupted while he was sort of, sort of, kind of, I'm gonna, it had alondo, I'm gonna give you point 15 credit on that one for mentioning londo.
Brent: about 0.14 more than I think it deserves.
Jeff: Well, I mean, it only has lon do's name in the title. I mean, I mean, I mean, as you said last time, so did whatever happened to Mr. Garabaldi and we got him for about 39 seconds in that
Brent: Yes. Yes. Jeff. I think if you and I were both college professors, Students would love to take your course because you apparently grade on a really generous curve and they would hate mine because there's no such thing as a curve in my course.
Jeff: I just figure you're failing. I might as well boost your ego a little bit. It's still a
failing score.
Brent: you know what? I appreciate that.
Jeff: Well, for those of you that it might have been a while since you've watched this episode, for those of you that have never watched it at all, and you're wondering what we're talking about and what is Londo Maari doing in an episode called The Very Long Night of Londo Maari.
Hey, Brent, why don't you tell us about this one?
Brent: Well, so now that Lanier has been permanently friend zoned by Dalen after her marriage to Sheridan, and since Lanier will never love another, he will take no wife. He will hold no lands father, no children. He shall wear no crowns and win no glory. Night gathers and now his watch begins with the Rangers.
Also, Londo and Vera discuss an ancient sonari fairytale one in which an angelic soul that happens to be inhabiting the body of a monster of a person has the ability to kill the body just so that it can escape, which is just an old sonari wives tale. Right, right. Okay. Let's get to the meat of the episode.
Lao's, having it out with Zach over some sonari booze that has been impounded in customs and londo A apparently really needs a drink while we consider if he might have a slight problem. Beer tries to reason with Zach, but it's no good. Londo has snuck a little sip and he passes out poisoned with the Brava in the cargo bay.
Actually turns out it wasn't poison at all. It was an angelic being, forcing Londo to have a heart attack and the rest of the people. Mm-hmm. And as the rest of our cast is milling about doing their thing, Londo is visited by the ghost of Christmas, past Christmas, present and Christmas future. And first up, the ghost of Christmas past in tonight's performance of Charles Dickens Christmas Carol, in tonight's performance of Charles Dickens Christmas Carol, the part of Ghost of Christmas past will be played by Delin.
Delin has a black shroud over her face and a deck of tarot cards, all symbolizing the life choices that Londo has made except the deck is bleeding, symbolic of how much blood has been spilled that Londo is personally responsible for. She tells Londo he is dying. Lando remarks that maybe it's just better that way.
But then Ghost to Lynn asks Lando a very familiar sounding question. What do you want? Oh, no, no. Wait, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry. It was, do you want to live? Lando says, yes, and she says, well, then say the word, A single word will set you free. Suddenly there's a pulsating heart just below an iron grate in the floor.
Wait a minute, Jeff. I thought this was Christmas Carol, not telltale heart. All right, well flash over to another scene and judging by all those empty bottles, actually, maybe this is Casca ato. Come to think of it. Nope, nope, nope. We're definitely back to Christmas, Carol, because here comes the ghost of Christmas Future who looks like a.
Who looks a lot like a quick changing Sheridan. They discuss what it's like to be dead, you know, since Sheridan once was dead for a few minutes anyway, and then they move on to discussing the shared reality. And then they move on to discussing the shared reality that they both know that they're living on borrowed time.
Lando regrets that he hasn't used his days very well, and Sheridan tells him there is something he could do, he could turn around. Lando knows what that means, and he seems to know that the ghost of Christmas present is standing directly behind him, a red and blue-eyed car just waiting for Londo to turn around and face him.
Londo says he can't. He can't. And Sheridan just sort of orbs out of there. Well, Londo finally drawing up the courage to turn around and face Ghost of Christmas. Present. There's Kar waiting to take him the rest of the way. Through his journey, Kar talks about Londo. Even if Londo didn't personally order the attacks or maybe do the attacks, he still simply stood by and let it happen.
Everything from the invasion of Narn to the use of the mass drivers all the way to the torture of Kar by Cartia, by Cartia Kar says that a single word from Londo in any of these situations, even if no one would've listened to him, a single word could have been enough to save him. But Londo just remained silent, and he is just as guilty as the rest of Londo reiterates his desire to live.
And he even endures the 39 lashes that Jaar did. There is just one word that Londo has to say, and this is all gonna be over, but it's a word that Londo has never, ever used in his life. He has never apologized to someone. Longo's pride begins to kick into overdrive, but it apparently quickly wears out.
And before long we see this dream world Londo pounding on the floor where the heart is screaming that he's sorry that he is so very sorry. And then this even plays itself out in the real world where he opens his eyes from a coma, locks eyes with a nearby Ja car and says, I'm sorry, Kar. And with that Rondo's heart stabilizes.
The angelic being doesn't kill him, and he's on his way to a full recovery. So I guess that whole thing really was just a wives tell. Oh, except Vera goes back to it. And clues the sin. You see, the body has the ability to choose forgiveness or not when it's under attack from the angelic being the angelic soul.
So in the myth, the person is either forever changed or they die. Well, Londo's alive, so it looks like he might be forever changed. Jeff, what did you think of this Very. Message filled episode.
Jeff: The one that could be retitled, the redemption.
Brent: don't you say it.
Jeff: Ah, Brent, I loved this episode. I loved this episode. I needed this episode so badly.
Brent: Yeah,
Jeff: But the thing is, I needed it between no surrender, no retreat. Retreat. I needed it,
Brent: please. No tweet.
Jeff: ed. I needed it between no surrender, no retreat. And between the darkness and the light, I like, they became buddies. Uh, they became almost comic relief before this happened, and it kind of undercut the big moment. But the big moment was still huge. And I get it, season four, five. It was a cluster. It was weird.
They had to make choices. They made choices. I'm not gonna hold that against this episode.
Um, I just wanna say it.
Brent: Do you like that they came, even though it's kind of chronologically out of order? Are you glad that they still came back to this?
Jeff: God,
yes. yeah, Because I think if we go all the way back to passing through Gethsemane, which set the tone for season three, and we talk about forgiveness, and then we're faced with these two monstrous relationships between Londo and Kar and then Sheridan and Garibaldi. Right where with Sheridan and Garabaldi, I mean, I don't know, maybe we'll get more there, but it just kind of seems like they had some bro moment behind closed doors and we're cool now.
But that's what happened between Londo and Kar is much bigger. Much bigger. And this had to happen.
Brent: I, I agree. If I, just to bounce off that real quick, I did find this one very interesting watching esp, particularly the entire conversation happening with Jaar and Lando, uh, in the dream world. And all I could think was I saw glitter and confetti on the heads of both Lando and Kar are sitting in an office sharing a drink after a wedding.
And then we get this episode, like it definitely felt backwards. You said to me before we came on Mike tonight, that you really felt like this could have been a season four, should have been a season four episode. And I, I agree. It really could have been back there. And I also like you 100% understand why it wasn't and I'm very glad they came back to it.
Jeff: This, this had to, we had to see this. One of my favorite things about this one, and you, you talked about it in the recap, is it anticipated my confusion and almost growing resentment of the episode as it was going on because like, I don't know, 20 some odd minutes into the whole thing. I'm like, why are there rules?
How come Dalen can only ask him one more time? Like, I don't get it. And the more the episode went on, the more I had this little thing in the back of my head of just like, this doesn't make any sense. But then Veer comes in with his little wives tale. They explain it all away. And I'm like, that's, that's a little corny, but you know what?
It works. I'm, I am gonna ride that train. That works for me. I think hand waving can be fine sometimes. This was, I mean, this was awesome. We're gonna talk a lot about what happened. I will say like there was some linear stuff in this that, um, I hate it. I hated everything about it. This is, uh, in my mind, a complete 180 from who he is as a character.
It made no sense to me at all. The only way Lanier's story can end now and I'll be cool with it is if Sheridan and Dalen decide to lean in, lean into the, uh, minbar interpretation of the number three, but we'll see. We got a whole season in front of us. What were your, uh, what did you first think of this one?
Brent: Jeff, you my friend. As much as I love you and as much as we're in this show together, there are certain things that you are not allowed to say that only I am allowed to say.
Jeff: Those are your words.
Brent: I'm the only one who's allowed to say it. You are, I'm sorry. Like they belong to me. They don't belong to you. You are not allowed. This episode is the redemption of Lando Maari. We finally got there. I could just, I could see right now all of the memes and all of the tweets over in red sector. I know we've already seen a few that have come out just since the Brent watches video and the, the, even the Jeff reaction video has dropped and, and you and me recording right now.
But it's, I I could just, oh my gosh. We, we've taken so much flack. I have taken so much flack about asking about if this is the redemption of Londo Malawi. Uh, but we've, we've come back to it and you know, I declared a long time ago, he is beyond redemption. He is irredeemable at this point. And I know people are asking me, do I still think he's irredeemable after all of this?
Well, we'll get there. We'll, we'll, we'll get there for what that means and what is redemption and how does redemption work? And is is everyone still qualified? Is anyone ever truly irredeemable? We're gonna talk about that because that's a big part of what this episode really is all about. Uh, Jeff, this was a
truly phenomenal episode. Um, this is the kind of an episode that makes me so glad we decided to watch this series. This is an episode that needed. 80 some odd episodes before this one to pay off. Maybe it could have dealt with like 77, you know, but it needed the entire journey. It needed the entire arc to pay off. Do you remember back in season? I wanna say it was season three, I think it was The dust episode.
Jeff: Dust to dust. Yeah.
Brent: Yep. And in that episode, Kar winds up tripping out on some, some drugs, and he winds up having this come to Jaquan moment at the end.
Do you remember that? And costumes in and does this whole thing. It, it was in that episode that Kar got sent on a new path. It was, it was a marky setting moment for him. It changed his character. For who he is, uh, for the better. Maybe it, maybe it it like a Pokemon. It just evolved him to the next level of what he supposedly was.
I think we've seen something similar with Sheridan. Sheridan has had one of these big major moments. Delin has definitely had one of these big major moments. A vva might have actually been the first to have one of these major character defining moments. Has Gu Baldi ever really had one of these? I don't know. Veer Veer has had these moments. Veer seems like he's had about five of these moments, you know? But here is Longos. This is a character, this is a, a turning point for Lando for the good. I have been waiting for this episode for three seasons now. Has it been three? Is it four? However long it's been, whatever, three and a half seasons I've been
Jeff: the coming of shadows
Brent: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I quite loved this episode, the linear stuff. I would've been perfectly happy if that was shoved off to a different episode altogether. And we replaced the nine minutes that, that episode, that that portion of the episode took with more of what we got. That would've been perfectly okay with me. I don't know what's going on with Lanier and his whole thing.
We'll find out. We'll get there cuz his, because listen, he's still in the opening credits now. Don't remind me of Keffer who was in the opening credits the whole season. We saw him like three times. Lanier's not going anywhere. He's such a huge part of this cast he's gonna be around. Uh, but, uh, uh, yeah, I, I love this episode, Jeff.
I absolutely love this episode. Um, I think this is gonna be an interesting conversation though.
Jeff: Agreed.
Brent: Um, so,
Jeff: Well, I think, I think before we even talk about that, I think what we need to just acknowledge, so for people listening to the audio podcast on YouTube, we talk a little bit before we start the podcast and we kind of joked on there that there's a 16 hour version of this podcast within us that we is waiting to get out.
We're not gonna talk about everything. There's no way we don't on a regular basis. You know, I mean, for last week's episode, we didn't talk about Sheridan's socks and that whole ridiculous thing. Not important, right? Although, I will just say that should have been his answer to Lorianne when he is like, what do you have to live for?
And he was like, Dalen, he should have been like my socks, like they're waiting for me. But he didn't. But we're not gonna
dive into
Brent: I just, I'm sorry. I refuse to believe that Sheridan and Dylan have been married for however many weeks they've been married now. And Dylan has watched him creepy like a bunch of times before now and Woohoo and all that sort of stuff, and this is the first time she's ever seen him do socks.
Jeff: Maybe he has 300 pairs of socks and she's just now seen him wash them.
Brent: Maybe,
Jeff: They do things different in the future, I guess,
Brent: guess
Jeff: but I just wanna acknowledge we're not gonna dive into everything. There's no way. There's no possible way that we can, so there's gonna be stuff, you can leave it in the comments. You can hit us on Twitter, Macedon, whatever. Be like, oh, what about this thing?
Yeah. What about this thing So much. We're gonna dive into this stuff. Top of mind for us. We've watched, I've watched this one twice. I did my reaction. I watched it again to do my notes. That's it. This is when I'm gonna watch a lot more times at some point, cuz there's so much to unpack in it.
Brent: you know, Jeff, I, I often talk about how episodes are what I call laundry episodes.
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Brent: filming the channels, you're folding laundry, the episode's on, oh yeah, I'm gonna watch this episode. You can kind of go in and out. This is not a laundry episode. This is an episode. You're doing laundry, you're flipping the channels.
This episode comes on, you put the laundry down and you pay attention.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: That's, that's what you do. And you don't change the channel when it goes to commercial, cuz you're not missing in a second of this episode. Uh, I would, I would say this, Jeff, if anyone wants more thoughts from Brenton, Jeff, you can go over to our Patreon page and you can check out our notes.
Jeff and I have more notes than I'm sure what we will actually talk about in today's episode. Um, so yeah, uh, Jeff, I, I think this, let's just talk about Lanier. Let's get that piece out of the way. And then my guess is the rest of the conversation is just gonna be the message. Cause that's what the whole, the whole thing was a message. So I, I'm guessing that's probably what it's gonna do. Let's, let's just talk about linear, let's get that piece outta
Jeff: Okay. Yeah, let's do that.
Brent: Uh, You said you hated it,
Jeff: Can I just tell you that he's a liar, liar, pants on fire,
Brent: but Mbar don't lie.
Jeff: but they, mm. He's not even saving anybody's honor. Let me, let me, let me just see if I can jog the memory a little bit for you. I'm going to, uh, channel my veer. I'll have you channel your inner lens and I'm gonna look at you and I'm gonna say my place is by your side always come fire or storm come fire or storm or darkness or death.
I am to be by your side for all time, huh? Huh? Weird. Weird how everything changed. When there goes, my old girlfriend, he's got another diamond ring. I dunno, I messed those lyrics up, but
Brent: No, actually that was perfect
Jeff: that was it.
Brent: and all those laid now
Jeff: night promises.
I guess they don't mean a thing. Yeah, I Mm, I him becoming a ranger that's on brand for me.
I'm fine with that. It's the way and the why that he did it.
Brent: Yeah, absolutely. Here's, here's my note for that. Uh, my problem with this is d and, and Sheridan called it out for exactly what it was. Lanier is running away from the situation. He is not running to the Rangers. If Lanier was doing his thing, doing his thing, something happened with Marcus and there was a new calling on his heart.
Something shifted. Something changed in him, and he's gotta go become a ranger. Fine. That is not what is happening here. He can't handle that. She is sleeping with that dude every night and, and I mean, physically sleeping with the dude. Not although that other stuff too, but,
Jeff: a slanted bed at that, he's on, he's, he Sheridan's doing the thing. He's all
Brent: listen, listen. If I'm sharing, I'm like, look baby, I love you, but we are either getting a sleep number with an adjustable bed on each side, or you're learning to sleep flat. Cuz I, this ain't gonna work for me. Um, my feet hurt at the end of the night.
Jeff: I am going from a woohoo to a woo. Ow. Ooh.
Brent: Right. And that bed still looks hard as heck and really uncomfortable. Anyway, um, Lanier is making this choice because he can't handle it. And you know what, Jeff, that's fair. he should be able to handle it, but it's also fair for him to want to leave. He has it bad for this girl. I remember those days. He's like, look, she's with I, I I can't stay here anymore. It is driving me crazy.
It is, it is. It is making me heartsick at the same time. I think it's a bad move for Lanier. I think there is there like that. That's fair. That's that, that can happen. We also can grow up and we can be adults about this. You know, you, you shouldn't, you shouldn't go 20 years down the line. Having unrequited love and be sitting there looking at 'em. You always loved her. Always like that should never actually be a real thing that comes out of a 30, 40 something year old adult's mouth. Like, no, I'm over that. I got over that a long time ago. I've moved on. It just ain happening. That person's with that person over there now. Good for them. I'm moving on with my life. You should be able to do that. Not everybody does though, and it's okay. Lanier's problem again, he is running away, not running too. He thinks the Rangers are the only place he can go. But here's the deal. He's gonna go over here to the Rangers. He's not gonna find fulfillment over there either.
Jeff: No.
Brent: Marcus never did. He's kind of, he's more following Marcus's footsteps, not honoring Marcus's legacy.
Jeff: Oh, yeah. I like that.
Brent: You know what I mean? Um, and, and, and it's, I I, it's this really weird, like, yes, he should be able to get over it, but it's okay that he doesn't, and it's fair for him to go do this, but he should be able to get over it, is kind of what I'm saying. I'll tell you the person I had the biggest problem with though was Dalen
Jeff: Okay.
Brent: because there's a moment where he's looking at her and, and Lanier in hi.
And probably the most mature thing he said in the entire time was, I'm not comfortable here anymore. Dalen. I'm not. Okay. And Len Dylan looks at him and goes, but you said you'd be here forever. For him to clearly and explicitly state, I'm leaving and I'm not comfortable here. And she knew why he was not comfortable. It was, it
Jeff: knew last season she brought it up.
Brent: and she knew why, for her to then turn around and still try to manipulate him
Jeff: Hmm.
Brent: into staying, that's not okay. Not okay.
Thankfully, she didn't continue to press it and she, he's gotta follow the calling of his heart and if it doesn't work, the universe is gonna grab him and teach him. Okay. That's, she's letting him go.
Jeff: But also aren't, according to Menari faith, aren't we the universe and isn't she as a mentor responsible for that? And so way to your point, right? Like, I'm not, I'm not comfortable being here anymore. Let's talk about that.
Brent: No.
Jeff: Let me hear you
Brent: Yeah, no. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna answer why? Because she is the object of the uncomfortability. The, those conversations can't be had with her. They need to be had with a different mentor because, because of her being the object of all of that.
Jeff: she's so involved. It does
Brent: That that's the only re now if it had been anyone else?
Absolutely. Absolutely. But just because of it being her, it, it could not be Dalin talking him through that.
Jeff: And it almost like that point, even just punctuates what you were saying, where it's almost worse where she's, like you said, you would always be here. Hey, I know you, I know you've got it for me bad. I know you're not comfortable, you just told me, but like now I'm just gonna, I'm gonna dangle it out there again for you.
Like, but you said you'd be here, you'd be Yeah. No, I, I, I hadn't really thought about it in, in that regard, but you're right. I mean, I think,
I think a thing that's just coming to mind for me now, so it's not a fully baked thought, but Dalen can be a very eloquent talker.
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: think she's a terrible listener.
Brent: Mm.
Jeff: And I, and I, and I think that that's, I think that speaks to so much. Of what we see all the way back in season one, where they're telling her about the chrysalis thing and the prophecy.
Hey, that sounds good. We want to hear, we want to look at that, but not now. Not you. Not. Oh, I'm gonna go do it anyway. And then moving into season two, which just there's this real long line of her just refusing to listen and restating her own real. We saw that in the last week's episode where, hey, don't go to the inauguration, but you have to go to the inauguration.
That's the way it's always been. Aren't you listening to this
Brent: I, I, because I think what Dylan has installed, installed, probably in Lanier is this idea of following the calling of your heart. There's nothing wrong with following the calling of your heart. The problem is, is when people use that as an excuse to justify what they want to do, Lanier's Lanier's calling of his heart is not to the Rangers,
Jeff: No.
Brent: you know, but he's gonna, but he knows he can throw that line out and it'll justify what he wants to do.
Same thing with the whole Chrysalis thing. It's the calling of her heart. Oh, they want Dalen to go back and be the new leader of the great council, but no, I've gotta go over here and do this thing because that's the calling of my heart. You're, you're using that to justify you. Like that's a thing that takes a lot of soul searching to really discover and find out, and maybe Dylan's real calling of her heart was to be a Babylon five.
But the way she handled that in that moment, I, I wholeheartedly agree with you on that.
Jeff: I find it interesting though that he's running away from Sheridan and Dalen to join the Rangers. It's how he's running away. But hey, who's in charge of the Rangers?
Brent: Good point. That's
Jeff: like, how? How far away are you really running, my friend? Like,
Brent: Well, that's what he said. I'm gonna come back. I'm gonna visit, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do all this kind of stuff. I just can't be here where you guys are waking up with each other and being the first person who comes in and opens your curtains for you in the morning anymore.
You know? Now here's the thing, and, and you mentioned earlier that this is a betrayal of Lanier. When Lanier first kind of said that he had a thing for Delinda, he loved her for Delin. He, I, I don't remember who he was talking to. Maybe it was Marcus, maybe it was somebody else. But he said, you think of it as romantic love, but for Mbar, it is much deeper than that. The way that this came off by this episode, It felt like this was a middle school crush,
Jeff: a hundred percent.
Brent: not something much deeper.
And I really like the idea that there is another level of love to the Mbar that actually isn't a romantic or a sexual love, but is, is some sort of a soul connection that doesn't require the, the romantic side of it. You know what I mean? And that, that that could, that relationship could be intact for Lanier and Delin and be 100% pureed, 100% positive, and in no way, shape or form being conflict with what she and Sheridan have,
Jeff: it could be,
Brent: maybe I, that they did. That's not the, that's not the way that we chose to explore that, that concept in this show. What we got was no, Lanier's got a crush and he just hasn't figured out how to get over it.
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Brent: That's what we got.
Jeff: Yeah, it was very disappointing and I, because I think, I think the on-brand version of Linear could still. Leave. He could still leave, but there would be a different motivation by what we've just talked about. Right. But it, it is literally to, I, I'm just restating what you said, but this is deeper than romantic love.
It's actually so much deeper. It's just middle school lust. Like it goes so deep from romantic love. It just circles all the way around. It becomes less than
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: it was. Yeah. I, I hated, I hated the linear stuff.
Brent: So, one more question and let's move on from this. Sheridan says, you know, yeah. Where I come from, three is a crowd, and, and in Dylan says, but on Minbar three is a sacred number or a perfect number, or whatever. What could that actually look like without, without turning this into a, a polygamous relationship?
Cause I don't think that's where this is going, or that's what was attended. Uh, what, unless it is, I mean,
Jeff: Well, you know, I, it's on our ignorance here. Neither one of us are in polyamorous relationships. I've never, I never have been. I have no desire to be, it's, God knows it's enough work to be mono amorous sometimes. Right. But I, I, I think there's so many things that, that can be, and I think, I think it goes to that concept of a love deeper than romantic or physical or sexual love. There's so much more that can be done there. I, I to to point to, you know, America's favorite film franchise, uh, fast and Furious, it's family, family. Family can take a lot of forms. You know, my, uh, my wife has talked a lot about how, uh, so in her culture, she's Lebanese, and in her culture there are people, they're polyamorous and have multiple wives, and it's a thing that happens and it's, it's not what you think where it's just like a dude surrounded, well, some of them are just a dude surrounded by his harem, but the functional ones are one where every person plays a very specific role.
And that's not always romantic. And I, I, I think there's a version of the three of them coming together in really being a, a, a singular unit that could really work and have that deeper love that, that, that love. You know, I mean, we've talked about it here before. There's the, like, Phil Oak Way and Agape, and the, they're like the three, four, you know, Greek types of love, brotherly love, and uh, parental love and romantic love, and all those different things.
Men Barr love, it's a whole different type and level that
Brent: Hmm.
Jeff: we haven't cracked yet.
Brent: All right. So Lanier, he's going away.
Jeff: He's gone till he comes back.
Brent: Londo has a heart attack. He goes in and has an inner soul experience. Jeff, but before we get into talking about all the stuff, I've gotta give you one, one. Well, I, uh, one light concept from this whole thing. Uh, I love my prop replicas.
Jeff: Oh, yeah.
Brent: There were two proper replicas in this episode that I, I need, I need to know that somebody makes them and I need, like, take my money.
I will buy them. I want a bottle of Brava.
Jeff: Okay.
Brent: I don't care what the liquid is inside. I want the bottle, I want the label. Give me some maroon colored liquid. I'm, I'm good, but
Jeff: I
guarantee you that exists. Some, there's a label, there's a sticker, there's a bottle somewhere that exists.
Brent: so. I would hope so. Two. I need a pack of lawn tarot cards.
Jeff: right here. Shows his past with tarot like cards. I need those cards.
Brent: yeah. I want, I want those cards. Okay, so let's, let's talk about lawn's very long night. Oh
Jeff: Well, even before we get there, one I, I, I enjoy, I have a lot of fun. I've been having a lot of fun this last, uh, season in into here, pointing out things I like about Dr. Franklin.
Brent: Okay.
Jeff: He was great in this episode. He got pushy with the medical staff when Londo was coding at one point. But what I loved about it is he wasn't pushy.
He was pushy, right? Like old Franklin was pushy and a jerk. This Franklin was running a tight ship and making sure everybody was on board doing what they needed to do to take car. Lando. I really liked Franklin in this episode there. You said your redemption, Alando, malar. I said, I like Dr. Franklin.
Everybody mark your calendars, which is March. This will be out on the 11th, I think. Boom. But yeah, I think from here, like we're blow people's minds here a little bit. I think it's time, Brent, that we talk about all of those important messages, right? We boil this all down. Isn't that wild?
Brent: There was a day in this podcast where this was about the normal part of the episode where we got to this moment.
Jeff: I know these episodes carry a lot more in them than they used to. I, I can remember as an aside, in the first season, somebody was like, wow, an hour, hour long conversation about, I don't know. Death walker or whatever. We can't wait till they get to episodes that are full of, you know, actually have stuff. I wonder how long this will be.
Brent: Here
Jeff: Well, let's find out, cuz I do think we're at the point of the show. We're gonna not necessarily boil this all down. We're gonna talk through it all, but we're gonna talk about the deep mo, we're gonna talk about the deep morals, the messages, all of the things that are in this episode as we conclude our discussion on all of the messages in this episode.
Brent, you're gonna rate this on a scale of zero to five white stars as to how strong the message is and just how Babylon five it was delivered. Um, wanna dive in?
Brent: Well. So with, with that, Jeff, um, typically when we get to the spot, uh, who, whoever does the recap is the person who does the white stars for the episode. So this is where I would pontificate for a few moments over the messages and stuff that I pulled out. Obviously, we haven't actually really talked about this part of the episode because something you and I acknowledged before we ever came on Mike tonight was.
There's no way to discuss this part of the episode without discussing the messages. It's, it's just going to be part and parcel. They're gonna go together, um, so different from the way that we normally do this. Jeff, I, I fully invite you in to help me with this and to just have this be part of the conversation because there's stuff that you got got that I did not get.
Probably vice versa. I hope, um, there is, there's no way that I captured everything and, and I'm not gonna be able to boil this down to just a couple succinct things. It's more just we gotta take it piece by piece and, and try to try to unwrap it. I will, however, though, reserve the right to be the sole distributor of white stars at the end, although I'll take, I'll take your feedback.
Um, spoiler alert, you should already understand what that is going to be,
Jeff: Yeah. I'll just tell you there, there is one correct answer to the number of white stars.
Brent: yes. And that number is greater than four. Point nine 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9.
Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, no question.
Brent: Solando goes into his little dream state and he meets a, a sh a dalen, a version of Dalen, let's say, who is, is kind of taking him through the hard parts of his life. And Jeff, the most interesting piece out of this whole deal to me was the question she wound up asking. And this is what jumped out to me. I don't know if it jumped out to you. whole thing went wrong with Londo when somebody came aboard the station and asked him a very simple question, what do you want? Think about where Lando was at this point. We had seen him in bed with, uh, Aira,
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Brent: and he had told her. People. People like the whole idea of Republican and being about your name and your glory and your house, like that's all garbage.
That's not what's meaningful in life. He was there. We heard Londo say, I forgot how to dance. Remember that Londo like this? Londo who is, who was just like, he's hit maturity. Like he, he's got it. He's on the other side and somebody comes in and goes, what do you want? Perhaps his answer should have been, I want to live
Jeff: I want to
dance.
Brent: I want to dance.
Yeah, I want to live whatever, whatever that is. I don't want to die. That's what I want. Instead, Lando retreats back onto the old familiar of, I want to see us great. All that stuff that he said he was over and really didn't mean anything. He said that's what he wanted and where did that lead him? It led him down, down paths that he never wanted to go down.
It led him down. It led him further than he ever wanted to go, and it kept him there longer than he ever wanted to stay. And now we're given the question, do you want to live? Maybe let me amend this question for Delin just a little bit. Don't you want to live?
Jeff: Hmm.
Brent: Don't, don't. Isn't this really what you want? Not this death, not this blood that, that is so ble, but what is it you really want? Cuz if you don't wanna live, we'll just, we'll take you out right now.
Right. But I've found that to be so interesting of comparing the juxtaposing the two questions of what do you want versus do you wanna live? What'd you think of this section, Jeff?
Jeff: It really reminded me of Sheridan and Lorianne. And, you know, Lorianne really was, he talked about, you know, w what do you have to live for? But he, he asked the question, we had that third question, right? So we had the, what do you want from the shadows? And then we have the, um, you know, who are you from? The Volans.
And then we had, why are you here from Lorianne? That kind of brought it together. And that's what I got like, do you want to live? Yeah, that's not enough.
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: It's not enough. You need more. And so what is that more? And yeah, so that's what what it just really hit me as to there, there's living
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: and then there's surviving.
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: And I think that ever since Morden and Lando had that first run in. Lao's been dumped into survival mode. He hasn't been alive since early in the first season, or middle of the first season, truly alive. And this was his first moment where like, it, it showed, I, I found it so powerful when Dalen was showing him those cards.
And she says, uh, you know, look at this. Look at this. And he says, I can't. There's too much blood. There's too much blood there. She's like, exactly, exactly. Oh, so in your survival, you caused the death of billions. Political strife, unrest, the entire galaxy was pulled apart. So now are you done surviving and killing everyone around you and you ready to live again?
Brent: Yeah. You know, it, it's interesting, I, I think back over the last two and a half seasons, and even the Lando in the Chamber where he's got to be the one who delivers these hard line messages. Remember when Longo's hair went black and his fang got really sharp?
Jeff: And he wore all the, his clothes, got all military.
Brent: yeah, yeah. Even then, there were times when you would see Lando pause and take a breath, and then push forward, you know? And it was in that breath that you're like, Lando, there is hope for you. You kept pushing it down. You kept saying no, but the question is, do you want to live? What? Do what? What do you really want? Is this, this, this, this? Is this what you want over here? You already learned once you didn't want it. Have you learned it again?
Jeff: do you want to sit on a wild horse? And just hold on for, for, you know, to, to, to try and not fall. Or do you want to actually like ride the horse?
Brent: Right.
Jeff: For real? I thought that was, I thought it was fantastic. It was beautiful, it was powerful. I thought it was great too, that he didn't have an answer. Do you wanna live?
And he went through a while. I don't know that I do. Does it even matter?
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: Is there anybody in the home world that would
even
Brent: the thing. Why, but why Jeff? Why didn't he know?
Jeff: because he had lost his purpose?
Brent: He,
Jeff: you have, if you have,
Brent: he was carrying so much guilt. He didn't know if he want, if he wanted to live, if he could not just be forgiven, but forgive himself for what he did, much less I have to go and, and ask for forgiveness somewhere else. You know, which, we'll get to that in here in just a moment,
Jeff: yeah.
Brent: yeah.
Jeff: And then, and then her next step was to say that a word, a word is needed. And I was struck with that because in no surrender, no retreat, when he was talking to Kar, he said, with a single word, I became the enemy.
Brent: Yeah,
Jeff: And now with a single word, he can, I won't use the word, but he can change his course and no longer be the
enemy.
Brent: fine.
Jeff: It's his redemption. Right? But it's just I, I love, I love the idea of the power of the word and to our earlier conversations that we've had on this show about apologies. And the superpower of apologizing and the point that you've shared and how you teach your kids is to go through the steps, right, of saying that you're sorry for specifically what happened, and then explaining how or why it's not gonna happen.
Again, being sincere in your apology, doing what you can to make it right, and then this is the magic that you teach. Ask if they'll forgive you, ask for forgiveness.
Brent: actually say the words, will you forgive me? Words, Lando didn't actually say, but most people don't teach people to say that. And it gets encompassed in the, I'm sorry. Like it gets wrapped up in that idea. So I, I don't wanna hold it against him. But folks, I'm telling you, you take that extra step to actually say the words, will you forgive me? There is so much power, there is so much freedom. There is so much redemption that can happen with those words immediately. It's immediate. And a person, a person can only say either yes or no. And it will tell you right away what kind of person that is. And frankly, if you're a person who says no, if you're that hard, there's another conversation that needs to be had. And yeah, I We'll let that be.
Jeff: Yeah. But it's just, to me, I, I was struck that it's a single word, but there's so much more to it than just a single
Brent: sure. Well, let's get into that because there's a whole other side that he says in the next. And then in the next portion he goes to visit a quick changing Sheridan, which I was trying to track with the clothes. So he starts in his Earth Force uniform, and then he loses the jacket. He's just got the white shirt on, and then he's got the, uh, alliance uniform on,
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Brent: and then he is got a Ranger outfit on.
Jeff: Yeah. Like a Ranger Jedi outfit with the robes and
Brent: I first thought it was a Jedi outfit. It took me a moment to realize he was in, in ranger robes, and then he turned into a white light in the moose.
Jeff: He looked like, uh, oh my gosh. Battlestar Galactica, the original series when they ended up like on the other side and everybody was just in pure white. There he was, and he had his, even his goatee was white.
Brent: You know what he, he looks a little bit like, uh, Q in tapestry.
Jeff: He really did. He really did. Just with the, with the goatee, just hardened him up a little bit for Babylon five.
Brent: Yeah. Yeah. Um, so Londo, there is something to be made of the fact that all of Lao's bottles were empty.
Jeff: It's a lot there. He even commented on it. The metaphors getting a little thick, don't you think?
Brent: was the metaphor, Jeff?
Jeff: Well, that he, that, that he had everything that he was using to hide behind was gone. There was nowhere left to hide.
Brent: The whole episode started with him arguing over his alcohol, the thing that he drown. I mean, ever since episode one, we've seen Lando drowning his sorrows. He didn't have that as an opportunity anymore.
Jeff: All gone,
Brent: You
Jeff: you and reality.
Brent: it. Yep. Can't put it off any longer. Um, I love the conversation between Lando and Sheridan. Lando says It's weird knowing that we're both dying. Sheridan says, we're all dying. Oh, the time that we have left to live doesn't matter. What matters is what we do while we're waiting around how we live out. Those seconds in between. Jeff, are you familiar with the dash?
Jeff: I'm not.
Brent: are you using your dash when you go the Jeff, one of these days we're all gonna die and pass away and they're gonna, they're what's gonna be left of your name?
The like the ultimate thing that's gonna be left is this, this is gonna be this tombstone or this plaque or whatever it is, it's gonna say Jeff Aiken, maybe a little blurb. Father, husband, podcaster extraordinaire, leadership guru. And then it's gonna have a year, it's gonna have a second year, and right in between is gonna be a dash
Jeff: Okay.
Brent: dash.
Is your life. Here's when you were born. Here's when you died. That dash is your life. How are you using your dash? That dash is the most important part of that whole thing that Dash is, is what you did. How are you using your dash, Jeff?
Jeff: Wow. You know, I love that. I love that so much. I. I do an exercise myself on myself, and I do it time to time. This isn't a one and done thing, but I also take teams through it as well. But I call it attending your own funeral.
Brent: Hmm.
Jeff: So imagine that you have passed away and you're at your funeral. Who's there?
What are they saying about you? What kind of conversations are people having around, you know, the reception or whatever? Do you like how all that came up? Or do you not like how all that came up? Oh, this person's not there. Oh, they're not saying this. No one showed up. Well, now's your chance to change, right?
Uh, I read an article a while ago about having a conversation with your 88 year old self. So have a conversation with them and ask them, Hey, knowing what you know now, what advice do you have for me? What would you stop doing? What would you start doing? How can I today start living the life that you at 88 Wish that I had lived, and they didn't say this in the article, but it struck me as I was reading.
You can have that conversation with yourself when you're 87 and you can make changes to have that life. There's no like, oh, it's too late for me. I can't do it. And I think that was part of Rondo's journey was when he was talking to Dalen at first or the, the image of Dalen, there was this thing of like, yeah, I've blown it.
I've gone too far. I've done too many bad things. My my time has passed. I'm an old man. I guess it's just time for me to die. By the time he got to Sheridan, I think he started to realize that like, well, well, maybe, maybe I could make a change. Maybe I could turn and have something different. And I think for me, as we're talking about the messages in life is that it is never too late.
To make that change to shift and become that person that your 88 year old self wants to be or that you want to have people talking about at your funeral?
Brent: Jeff, do you know the name Colonel Sanders?
Jeff: I sure do.
Brent: Colonel Sanders came up with Kentucky Fried Chicken. He didn't fry his first piece of chicken until he was 65 years old.
Jeff: Wow. Yeah.
Brent: that's not true. He fried his first piece of chicken long before that, but he didn't start his empire until he was 65 years old.
Jeff: Well, Garth Brooks is another, wasn't he like in his mid thirties before he ever likes Strummed Decor onto a record or anything?
Brent: I don't know about that, but what I do know about Garth Brooks is he took about 18 years off of touring and recording so he could go be a dad. He chose what was most important and you know what happened? Once his kids grew up and got out of the house, he went back on tour and
Jeff: out arenas
all
Brent: out arenas and he only had to go like on four a year because he'd make enough money
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: and he, and he started traveling with his wife and he like, he's living his best life. Using your dash well.
Jeff: I kept waiting for Sheridan though, and, and I don't know, I'm, this is a little, a little just like, ooh, Babylon fivey thing, but everything he said was beautiful. It was amazing. But it echoed what Lorian. Told him when he was dead and I kept waiting for him to say, lo Lando, it's what happens between the tick and the talk.
Right. He said, it's what you do with the seconds in between, which is great and it's a lot more, um, I think relatable for us as viewers, but it would've been a cool callback if he was just like between the tick and the talk.
Brent: Yeah. Rondo's response is, I haven't been very good about that part in Sheridan in a boss way. He goes, no, you haven't. But there's an old saying where I'm from, Jeff, if he ain't dead, he ain't done
Jeff: That's right.
Brent: Sheridan gives him advice for Londo. And I'm gonna do my best to keep this out of the religious aspect, Jeff, because this can go down that path real quick.
Jeff: Yeah. To say Good
Brent: This does not have to be that, like this is just life. Like it doesn't have to, like, you can attach that. But he says, here's my advice to you. Turn around turnaround. Do you know what the word is there for turnaround? Do you know what it means? What? Do you know what, what Sheridan was saying in that moment, or at least what I got out of it anyway?
I don't know what you got out of it. Rondo's been going down this path. Londo, there's a lot of blood on your hands. There's so much blood, you can't even look back at the last few years of your life because there's, it's just covered. You haven't, you are, you are on your way to death, but you're not there yet. You haven't got there yet. You haven't done good so far, but what's left all? What does Sharon just say? He said it doesn't. It doesn't matter when you die. It just matters what you do with the seconds in between. You're not done yet.
There are still more seconds. What are you gonna do with the rest of these seconds? His advice was, turn around. There's a word for that. Repent. That's what repentance means. That's what Repent is, is to do a 180 to you're going this direction to stop, turn around and go in the other direction. Turn around now.
We saw Ja car standing right behind him when if Londo were to repent, if Londo were to turn around, he would have to turn around and he would have to face this thing that is right in front of him. Not some big trial, not some big what? He would just have to face the truth in order to go forward. And turn around, like up to that point.
Yeah, you've done really bad stuff, like really, really bad stuff. But from this moment forward, you have seconds left. You part, your dash isn't done yet. You can turn around. That's all you have to do it there. It's, it's a lot. It's everything you, it's everything that there is, but it's not a lot. All at the same time.
Just turn around and Lando says he doesn't think he has any choice in the matter. You always have a choice in the matter. You can stop and turn around. You can repent, do a 180.
Jeff: When he said, turn around and Kar was standing there and I thought that was great. Just the, the way the shot was set up. We knew at, like at thi at this point, we pretty much knew what Lando had to do, but the way they visually set that up, the visual poetry of it was so gorgeous. But what it rang for me was Lady Marella, major Barrett, when she came in and told him like, Hey, don't mess these things up right, and you're gonna be fine.
And one of them was he was going to have to surrender to his greatest fear. And I was like, is this, that moment his greatest fear is facing accountability. And apologizing and asking for forgiveness from the person, from day one, he knew was gonna be locked in a death throw with him. And in the moment he couldn't do it.
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: He couldn't do it. He found, you know, we, we'll get there. He got there, you know, to a point where he is like, well, he did even here, he got to
Brent: Can I, can I, can I, I'm, I'm, I hate to interrupt you. It's not that he couldn't do it. He was choosing not to do it, you know, but he told himself I couldn't do it. No, he could. He chose not to do it.
Jeff: And I think so that, and it was Alando episode, I, I'll rack my brain to, to remember which one it was, but we had that deep conversation. It might have been with Lady Morere where we talked about that, where you always have a choice in everything. The, the whole phrase of, well I had no choice.
Is a objective falsehood. It is not true ever. It's always a choice. So you're right, he could, I will say he couldn't make himself choose, eh, he felt he couldn't make himself choose to turn around. But then, but then he did. I think that's the thing he did too late this time. You know, he had a, had the, the other moment he had to do with Veer before he got there and it happened.
But, uh, oof. It was just so good. And, and just showing that it's, we all, we all have our jaar.
Brent: Mm.
Jeff: You know, it might not be a person, it might have been a situation for a lot of us. It is a person, right? But if you sit and you're honest with yourself, we all have a JA car out there, that person that we refuse to choose to turn around, say the things that need to be said.
Oh.
Brent: Can I, can I point out with Jaar as we go into this third section of the, of the story, the, the real life Jaar, he stood on the other side of that glass. And all Londo did was open up in his eyes and say, I'm sorry, Jaar, the whole thing that happened inside of Rondo's head that was not actually Kar, that was Londo in his own mind. What you just said a second ago, Jeff, is that we have to turn on and face our kar. There's a lot of people out there that are thinking like, dude, if I in real life have to go back and talk to that person, if I in real life have to reengage that, that's, that's a deal breaker. That's not happening. That does not always has have to happen.
Sometimes that does need to happen. Sometimes it's wise for it to not happen,
Jeff: It's safe. It's the only safe thing for it to not happen.
Brent: but it needs to happen internally.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: It was the, the, the guilt was represented by Kar. That wasn't Kar, that was Lao's own guilt. That was being, that was Lao's conscience being held up and, and, and projected in the form of jaar. And so Lando does turn around eventually, he thinks at one point, I'm sorry, he thinks at one point that it might actually be best for him to die in his guilt. Ah, maybe I should just die. What good is it going to do? Anyone? You know what good and the truth is, it's, oh, he says maybe it's for the best. It's not best for anyone, for you to die in your guilt, for you to die in your sin, for you to die in your unforgiveness, for you to die in your un repentance.
It's not good for anyone. Wado eventually turns around and he has this conversation. Kar says one word from you could have changed at all. Said Even, even if they didn't listen, even if nobody paid attention to you, you just could have said something and it would've made the difference for you. But because you didn't, you're just as guilty as they are now.
That's a whole different conversation we could have. I don't know if that's true or not, but to the point of what we're saying here, your and Mondo's hands were a lot more dirty than just not saying anything. Like, let's, let's just clear that up. Okay. Um, but for him to say, you didn't say anything when they wanted to go bomb my world.
When they wanted to take the mass drivers out, you could have said something. You didn't, when Carta was torturing me, you could have said something, but you didn't. Honestly, in that moment with Carta, he needed to not say something.
Jeff: right?
Brent: Because bad stuff would've happened otherwise. Like, like there, there, there are things happen.
Londo turns around and he winds up meta physically taking 39 stripes, uh, in the same way that Kar did. I, I kind of hate that that part had to happen. I really do. Um, but it got lado to a point where he finally could get, he was broken down enough. He wanted to live more than he wanted his pride, cuz he said, I've, I could say that's word. I've never said that's word to anyone before. That's longo's pride. That's all that is, is pride. He wanted life more than he wanted pride folks, I'm telling you, pride is not a thing you want. It is not what it will never, ever serve you well
Jeff: Ever.
Brent: ever. Never have enough, too much pride to apologize for what you've done wrong. Should never have too much pride to refuse forgiveness either. That's a different story.
Jeff: Well, I think, I think that's actually the opposite of pride. A person who is truly proud of who they are, who has true pride of purpose and personhood, when they do something wrong, they want to do better, and so they, they admit it. They say, I was wrong. How can I do better? Help me? They give a good apology.
They ask forgiveness. What we see instead is just ego. We call it pride, you know, there the, the, the, the fall of pride and all those things, but it's just ego. It's all it is propping yourself up above all others. It's selfish. It's all of those things, but nothing good comes from that. I think it's hard because of the way language.
The power of a word, right?
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: Pride is not bad. If you're truly proud in a humble way, that you want to be the best that you can be, not the best, but the best that you can be, right? Pride, e Ego would be me saying, Brent, I'm, I'm better than you. I am better than you. Pride is me saying I'm better than I was last time.
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: That's a good thing. And I think that Longo's ego was so out of control. His pride that he had propped up as this false person that he'd been pretending to be for his whole life in a real way, finally broke down in the, in this, in this, in that moment with Kar,
Brent: Yeah.
Jeff: I do have to
Brent: Well, because, because, because sacrificing that part of your pride means admitting you were wrong.
Jeff: For so long in in Land's case for so long and to and to so much pain and death and blood.
Brent: Yep. Whereas Lando could have chosen to have pride in his centara. He could have had pride in him, in himself, pride in the fact that he was actually a good and upstanding man, that when you do something shitty, sorry, if you gotta bleep that out, but when you do something that bad that you can't live with it until you go get it. Right. I can't sleep until I get this fixed. I can't, I can't. Like I've got, this is not who I am. This is not where I want to be. This is not, this is not true to me and I've got to get this resolved before I can go on. There's a good pride, there's a bad pride. It's unfortunate that in the English language, those are the same words for us. I wish they weren't. I wish we had different words to describe those two types of pride and thank you for bringing that out cuz it's there. There are two types. One good one, not good.
Jeff: I have to say I love how Kar drove it home when Londo wasn't saying that he was sorry quite yet. He was getting there. Saying some of the words, and Kar just freaked out. He's like, you're not sorry for what you did. You're sorry that you got caught. I want to ask anybody who's ever had to stand in front of a parent, a teacher, a manager, a judge, a police officer, whatever, and they've been, did you do this thing?
And you break down cry. I'm so sorry. Oh my gosh. I'm So are you, are you, so if they had never caught you and you skated away, would you be upset? Would you be so sorry, I'm gonna go out on a limb and based on my own personal experience, tell you probably not. Some things, yes. I think some things are egregious enough in our lives that we, we carry those, it's what we're dealing with here.
But with Londo, I feel like Londo, we talked about it early in season three or middle of season three, he, I. He was fixing everything, right? He broke up with Morden. He told the shadows to stay away. I f he fixed everything. So, so what's the big deal? If he was sorry. If he was really sorry, he would've gone and actually helped ards, not manipulated Cartia and played the games that he played.
He would've, he would've said something, but instead he said nothing at all.
And I think you had said there's a whole piece around speaking out and being as guilty as the others. And I think what where this hit me is we have a new, a new word, a couple years old in our vernacular that we use, and it's anti-racism, right? It's not enough to not be racist. You need to be an anti-racist.
And at its core, that means quite a bit. But at its core, that means. What we, what we learned from nine 11, when you see something, say something, right? If somebody treats somebody wrong, you call it out. You say a thing. This is the responsibility of every single citizen in the world. Sheridan gave us this in intersections in real time.
When he said that, I will say, no, I won't one more time than you can say, yes, you will. All of us have to stand up. We have to say no sometimes. Sometimes we have to stand up and say, what you just did, what you just said, not okay, and I'm not gonna put up with it. Because if one person does that, another person will, and eventually others will also.
That's how change happens. This is a powerful statement and it has become more powerful for us in, in, in modern times where we can't just quietly watch and see things happen. When you were talking earlier, you know about, well, you know, they. They, they came for the nans and then they came for this, and then they came for lawn and well, first they came for the Jews and then they came for the invol.
How many times in our history have we seen this? You know, I came and I said nothing, and then they came for me and there was no one left to say anything. When you see something that's wrong, you have to speak out and say something, but to your point, if that wildly insane, crazy murder head person is sitting there and is ready to kill you in a second May, may in your enclosed doors and no one knows what's gonna ha, maybe you don't say something, right?
Then maybe you wait and then you go to HR afterwards or whatever,
Brent: Jeff, if I could add on to what you're saying, and this is, this is Aism. This is not anything the show was trying to tell us. This is, this is just Brent's own observation and, and I happen to have a microphone and a platform with which to, to say this, you know, one of the most obnoxious phrases that anyone can say, whenever something bad happens, uh, thoughts and prayers go out to you.
Why is that obnoxious? Because they don't do anything. It's ineffective like that. That's what makes it obnoxious because first of all, you know, the person who said thoughts and prayers really isn't thinking about you beyond the saying of that phrase, and they're really not praying for you. And even if they were, you don't really think that that's doing any good for you
to, to reiterate what you just said, Jeff, you gotta call it out. I would add to that. To simply call it out on social media is not enough. You have to call it out in real life. In fact, you could never say anything on social media, but if you call it out in real life, you're doing your job because social media is the ether.
It's not call put it out there. It's not bad to do that. But if you are satisfied with just saying it on Facebook or Twitter or Mastodon or Truth or whatever you're on, but you're not gonna say it to the person standing acro a aside to the person who's sitting across the Thanksgiving dinner table from you to call it out, then you are not doing, you're, you're not, you're not in that spot. But as Jeff said, if you're in a closed room, use some relational intelligence there as well.
Jeff: Just a little bit.
Brent: it's a line to walk for sure.
Jeff: It is, but I think it's important to, to still say, you know, quite some time ago, maybe about a year ago or so, um, you specifically, but, but, but I was very happy to be a part of the message, but we, we, you openly called out how we support the, the members of our community that are trans. We have a, we have a, a lot of incredible members of our community that, that are all of the genders, right?
But we specifically, because there, there's, well, there still is awful things happening to people that are trans. It's, it's unconscionable, um, the, the world that many of you are having to live in right now, but called it out, said it, you put it out there. We did it in the moment and we did it with a level of risk.
What we know is we lost patrons, we lost listeners, and we lost viewers for doing that. And that's okay. Not only is that okay, that's fine. I mean, it's,
Brent: We regret it. Yeah.
Jeff: Yeah. But my point is speaking for you and, and, and, and tell me if I'm wrong, I don't think I am, but we consider ourselves to be allies of people that are unrepresented, underrepresented out in the world, or unrepresented entirely.
Brent: Mm-hmm.
Jeff: I like to go a step further even and say that like, I like to think of myself as an accomplice. Like I'm not just gonna be an ally, but I'm gonna go and actively mess some stuff up for you. Like, let's do this. Real allyship though means it, it means that there's risk involved. I don't get to sit with my phone on Twitter or whatever and Oh, I think this thing was bad, or, but I don't get to do that.
That's all show I have to put myself out there where there's risk. Now, not the level of risk where Caria will murder me horrifically for, for no purpose. But what I think about is, uh, an example I have where I had a early episode of the Star Fleet Leadership Academy, where I talked about women in it and how they're not given a fair opportunity and some real objective cases of, of discrimination in hiring practices.
And I had a person reach out to me through email and I made a mistake of feeding the troll. Brent. I fed, I fed the troll.
Brent: feed the trolls, Jeff
Jeff: This guy led into me about how uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a couple. Some women, some women have had a, a tough time, but I mean, the pendulum swung so far now. White straight men can't even get a job any really.
I mean, why don't you, why don't you turn around bro and just like white dudes can't get, we're doing just fine. A buddy of mine a while ago, buddy, I used that term loosely and uh, a person I know was joking, but I, he says, uh, right now in the history of all time is the worst time to be a, a straight heterosis white man.
And frankly, it's still pretty dang good. And I'm like, yeah, cuz we are not moving the needle fast enough to bring everybody on board into real parody and equity. We're not doing it fast enough. We're working hard, but not hard enough to work hard enough. We. Those of us with privilege need to use that privilege.
Put ourselves in areas of risk and danger where we can lose our jobs, where we can be called out on social, we can be canceled. Well, I, I don't even know if people cancel each other anymore. I'm an old person, so I say things like that, but we have to put ourselves on the line. Otherwise it's just performative.
It's just having a black picture, black square for your profile picture. Ooh, that moved the dial thoughts and prayers. Hey, thoughts and prayers are great. Thank you for them. Don't tell me don't waste your breath or your keystrokes telling me that you're giving me your thoughts and prayers cuz you know what you should be anyway.
We are, we are the brotherhood of humanity, the sisterhood of hu whatever. We are the family of humanity. We should be thinking and praying. If that's what you do, sending good vibes, whatever we should be doing that. No matter what, you don't wait for the tragedy. Sorry.
Brent: Well said. Well said my friend. Um, that was a lot of words.
Jeff: Yes.
Brent: Londo needed one word.
Jeff: One,
Brent: One word, and he got there. He eventually got there. if you're okay with it, I'd like to bring this one home.
Jeff: you may, I just want to, for the sake of doing it, because this was so powerful to me, and if I'm stealing this from you, I'll cut it out, but when he woke up and he looked at Jaar, I just want to say what he said because I thought it was beautiful. He wakes up, he opens his eyes, and he looks and he sees Jaar, and he just says, Jaar.
I'm sorry, Kar. And then Kar broke. Like he broke because he said, sorry, bring it home, Brent. Bring it home.
Brent: Here's the question, Jeff. This is the million dollar question. Can the irredeemable be redeemed? I am here to unequivocally say, yes, the irredeemable can be redeemed. Two and a half seasons ago, when I first said that there was no redemption for Lando Malawi, that he was irredeemable, I knew then the redemption for Lando Maari was still on the table because as this episode pointed out, let's talk about the, the messages that Babylon five gave us in this episode. If he ain't dead, You ain't done. All you have to do is turn around. Do you want to live or do you want to die Real life? Do you wanna have real life? Well, if you're not dead yet, you've got life left. Turn around. Repent. It's that simple. And then there's a word, I'm sorry, Rondo's redemption hinged in no way, shape or form on Ja Car's response. Jaar could have had the worst response in the world. Jaar could have said, no, I don't forgive you. not accepted. That would've been on Ja Car. And Ja Car's gotta deal with that. But for Londo, that is entirely him. And he needed to come to a, a point of realness, real brokenness over his own, uh, for lack of a better word, sin, right? He needed to repent and, and it is that easy. The irredeemable can be redeemed. Now, you may still have consequences. A guy sitting in jail does not suddenly get out of jail because they have a change of heart, and they say that they're sorry. A guy sitting in jail can still be redeemed. Yes, redemption is there. That's what this episode is saying. That's what Babylon five is saying. And they took an entire episode, broke it down into three parts. This is what Charles Dickens was saying back in a Christmas, Carol, this really is a Christmas carol.
That's really what this was. In so many ways, can an irredeemable person be redeemed? Yes, you can because you're not done. Folks, if you ain't dead, you ain't done, your dash isn't done. Use it well. And if you've, you've been going down one path and that path is leading to death. That path has so much destruction.
The redemption happens when you stop. You turn 180 degrees around, say your word and go forward from there. You can't just stay. You, you gotta go forward. You, you can't live here. You can't stay here. That's a buzzer, Jeff. Uh, you gotta, you gotta.
Jeff: I was waiting for you to stop.
Brent: Jeff, this is a five White Fury, or it's White Fury. This is a five white star episode. Through and through. This is, this is a phenomenal message. This is a message that has been four Seasons and two episodes in the making to get us to this spot right here. And the message isn't done yet because now we gotta see what Longo's gonna do with it next week and the week after.
And the week after that. You see where he is going. But the redemption it guys, it like, it's that easy. It's just that easy. Like it's hard. But did, that's the thing, do you see how hard it was for Londo to get there to that spot? But what, but what What was hard about it, Jeff? It was all internal. It was all internal.
It's your own self. You gotta fight on that. Not, not the Jaar in real life that was standing on the other side of glass. It was the jaar in his mind, it was his own, I've never said this word. It was his own pride. Redemption is possible. Five white stars through and through Jeff.
Jeff: We've said on a handful of episodes, but this is one that it rings truer than any other one, that if we could do more than five, this is, this is, this is all of the white stars.
Brent: Every single one
Jeff: All of
Brent: Yes,
Jeff: There's 110 episodes. That's 550 potential white stars. They all are in this one.
Brent: yes.
Jeff: Yeah.
Brent: Well, Jeff, uh, I had white stars. If I kept white stars. I guess you get to kind of keep your thing and your thing is you get to rank this episode in our absolute 100. Percent completely accurate. Definitive ranking of season five of Babylon five. Now our current ranking, it currently has no compromises in the top spot, and then you get to pick.
Jeff, where does this episode go?
Jeff: I'm gonna, I'm gonna say a thing that we said right around episode six of the fourth season, which was, this is the number one, uh, episode of this season and possibly the number one episode of this entire series. I'm gonna just gonna repeat that statement right here, that the very long night of Londo Malar is the number one episode of this season so far, and possibly the number one or maybe top two, three to five, whatever of the entire series of Babylon five.
This is incredible.
Brent: I would agree this potentially could be a top three episode of, um, of the series. If, if, if what I have heard is correct, the series finale is, Phenomenal into the Fire. Phenomenal episode. One of the most beautiful hours of television I've ever seen in my life. This one is right there. Is this above or below into the fire?
Well, we'll debate that much later on. Is it above or below whatever that finale episode is? I don't know. We haven't seen it yet. We'll figure that out when we get there. It wouldn't surprise me if we went back and we ranked all the episodes. Those were the top three, and I don't know what's left in I, there's 20 more episodes of season five to go.
I don't know what's left.
Jeff: Well, let's get to the next one, right, because that's it for the very long night of Londo Maari. Next week we're watching the Paragon of Animals for the first time. We've never seen these episodes before. We haven't read any descriptions, synopsis, seen, any thumbnails or anything. We like to play a game where we guess and predict what the next episode is gonna be about.
So, Brent, based on the title alone, what do you think the Paragon of Animals is going to be about?
Brent: You know, Jeff, every once in a while we get an episode like this, parliament of Dreams immediately comes to mind where the episode was not about a parliament or about dreams, I don't think this episode is about paragons or animals. So the name is gonna be absolutely no help. So I'm gonna go out on a limb. You know what it's time for Jeff. It's time for a cabinet meeting.
Jeff: Okay.
Brent: It's time for a cabinet. Yes. My Hamilton fan's out there. I'm, I'm gonna stop right there and not try to wrap anything. President Sheridan is calling together the Alliance Worlds to choose a cabinet and various members of these alliance worlds are vying for prime spots within the cabinets. Purple and green Drowsy comeback, the Great Egg people come back.
Ultimately, this is a political episode about the early days of the Alliance and them getting them stuffed together. I cannot imagine that next week goes anywhere near as deep as what this one did. Next week almost needs to be a pallet cleanser type of an episode after this one, cuz this was such, I mean, great episode.
Great, great. Can you imagine if this episode was in season four?
Jeff: Yeah. Oh,
Brent: I mean, my gosh, I, Jeff, I, I've, I think, I think season four is better in season three. I really, I even, even with those middle set of episodes, season four just had so much and season three was phenomenal. Season three was phenomenal. And you know what?
Season five so far, it's off to a pretty dang good start, man.
Jeff: Really is.
Brent: What do you think?
Jeff: Well, I don't see him bringing in a zoo or like an alien animal kind. Like, oh, we're gonna ride these alien animals to fight.
Brent: wanted you to say alien an farm, but go ahead.
Jeff: I'm not that smooth of a criminal. Now, what I, what I think of when I think of paragon of animals, animals, right, is Cy Core's view of normals.
Brent: Oh,
Jeff: As far as cyco is concerned, normals are basically animals. So I think this is gonna be a ster episode, and I think this is going to be ster, um, putting his pieces in place to make his move on the government.
It's gonna lead to the, the telepath war. And he needs, like, I dunno, maybe he's gonna make a move for like officer, the president or something like that. But either way, he's gonna have to ally himself with a normal. And so he's gonna be looking for the best of the normals, the paragon of the animals, and try and form some sort of an alliance within earth gov.
Um, so that he can have, he can basically have that puppet politician in place that, uh, He can, he can help get, get elected, and then have the telepath rule the earth.
And I guess we'll find out here next week. Thank you all so much for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcast or wherever you watch us. Leave us a rating and review and please share this podcast with someone that loves Babylon five, or is about to fall in love with this incredible series.
Until next
Brent: Hey Jeff.
Jeff: Yeah, man. What's up?
Brent: So Brava,
Jeff: Mm-hmm.
Brent: what do you think it tastes like?
Jeff: Have you ever tasted something so fragile, so delicate, that it just feels like a soft, velvety blanket enveloping your tongue?
Brent: Yeah, it's called Pepto-Bismol.
Jeff: Oh, dude, that's gross. I, I say we just get the hell outta here.
