SPEAKER_02:
0:00
I saw the intense devastation that that single momentary act inflicted upon so many individuals, family members, colleagues, a whole community. After Sandy Hook, the question that I was asked most often is if there is a guy, how could he let this happen to these 20 innocent children? And I started to understand there is a deep need for chaplains to be available for first responders. And sometimes we do fail. And when we fail, it's necessary to process that failure and then move forward. First responders can be agents of light in a very, very dark world.
SPEAKER_06:
0:45
Welcome to Responder Resilience, along with my co-host Dr. Stacy Raymond. I'm David Ashinger. In the high-stakes world of first responders, where every call can mean a life saved or a life lost, it lurks a silent epidemic, suicide. Join us as we hear about the GY6 initiative, a groundbreaking movement led by Chaplain John Ravel, born out of tragedy yet fueled by an unwavering mission. Keep responders out of the morgue. This episode isn't just another story, it's a clarion call for awareness and action, a testament to resilience and hope.
SPEAKER_01:
1:15
And we'll also speak to John about Chaplin C, what that means, and how he's carried that out within First Responder professions.responderTV.com.
SPEAKER_06:
1:39
We invite you to like and subscribe, YouTube, Responder Resilience, Facebook, Responder TV. We're on LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and go to our website, respondertv.com for past episodes and guest information. We'll be right back to speak with John after this.
SPEAKER_05:
1:54
Ask a first responder who they are, and you're likely to hear I am a police officer.
SPEAKER_00:
1:59
I am a firefighter.
SPEAKER_05:
2:00
I am a pearl weather.
SPEAKER_00:
2:02
I am a 911 communications operator.
SPEAKER_04:
2:05
Not I do this work, but I do this job. Ask a clinician why they work with first responders.
SPEAKER_01:
2:11
And they may say, There's no fire falling helping to help us.
SPEAKER_04:
2:16
Join us in shaping a culture where mental health, wellness, and leadership are prioritized, not whispered about, where support is a sign of strength, not failure, and where no one has to carry the weight alone. Welcome to Responder Resilience, which kind of spotlight on the unseen battles of first responder reality and celebrate the powerful wins that come from the grit of post-traumatic growth. We understand the culture, honor the trust, and bring you conversations from the change makers, passionate about helping first responders come home whole.
SPEAKER_01:
2:47
With your hosts, retired Lieutenant David Dashinger, Dr. Stacy Raymond, and Bonnie Roomily, LCSW EMT.
SPEAKER_06:
3:07
He's going to be speaking about the GY6 Initiative for First Responder Wellness, which was born in the tragic context of helping first responders process horrific realities of suicide. From 2014 to 2024, Chaplain Ravel helped first responders in Connecticut process the suicides of 15 fellow first responders, and 14 of those were in two adjoining counties. As a result, he committed the rest of his life to doing anything and everything he could to keep first responders out of the morgue from self-inflicted wounds and to spare their families the unimaginable horror of making funeral arrangements for their loved ones. John, welcome to Responder Resilience. Thank you, David. It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_03:
3:46
So, John, I would like to start by asking you just to outline what is the role of a chaplain in emergency services.
SPEAKER_02:
3:56
Well, as you know, and probably most of your listeners know, first responders are exposed to all manner of horrors in as a result of their job. It's just part of the job. But sometimes that uh involves where a situation in which uh an innocent victim is uh is treated in a horrific manner. Uh most often those cases with first responders are children. And there is a a different level of impact uh that occurs within a person when there is evil that is unleashed on innocence. And the uh the atmosphere, the the culture, the uh first responder wellness uh universe has started to recognize a component called moral injury or moral trauma. And now it's been codified and it's uh written in the diagnostic manual so that the clinicians can actually use that code when they're treating uh those who've suffered from it. But what that means is if somebody is uh observes or is the victim of or even participates an activity in an activity that is an extreme violation of their moral code, it has a deep impact on their spiritual well-being. And this isn't just a religious component. This uh this uh is the case even with agnostics and atheists. Uh everybody has this sense of right and wrong. Uh all of our listeners, and I suspect uh the vast majority of people in the nation would agree that it is wrong to sexually abuse a three-month-old child. You know, that's not based on Christian faith or Buddhist or Muslim or Jewish, it's just wrong. And when first responders have to process those kinds of cases, it it goes beyond emotional trauma. We all recognize there's physical trauma, there's emotional trauma, but now there's a growing recognition that there's moral or spiritual trauma. And chaplains who are trained in first responder chaplaincy are equipped to help first responders deal with that aspect of why has evil been unleashed on innocence?
SPEAKER_06:
6:23
We focus quite a bit on this, what we call cultural competency for lack of a better term, where anyone who's going to work with our population to help them through these difficult situations really needs to understand our world. So you can use a generic example if you like, but how specifically does a chaplain help someone who has now experienced this type of moral injury and help them to reconcile um things that are sometimes difficult to process?
SPEAKER_02:
6:52
Oddly enough, the the sense that I have seen after uh 14 years of chaplainsing, and 10 of those were full-time, is just being there to listen to somebody unload that burden of uh in multiple cases uh involving children. How could this happen? Uh how could this happen? And after Sandy Hook, the question that I was asked most often is if there is a God, how could he let this happen to these 20 innocent children? And a chaplain is there to explain, number one, I don't know why God would, you know, I I don't have that level of access to where I understand why God does or doesn't do. But I've helped countless first responders deal with the aspect of just because I don't understand something doesn't mean God has done something wrong. It just means I can't comprehend. And so a lot of my job as a chaplain has been to help first responders say, we don't understand, but that doesn't mean that all is wrong with the world. It doesn't mean there is no God. It doesn't mean that he's cruel or he's not caring. It just means I'm limited in my comprehension. I've used the illustration of parents and children, and whenever I uh do this uh talk with first responders, I say, how many of you parents have ever had your child come up to you and say, I don't understand why you made that decision, but I know you love me and I deeply appreciate your restrictions that you've placed on me. It doesn't happen. And in the same way, if indeed you hold to this perspective that there is a heavenly father, just because I don't understand why he has done or has not done certain things doesn't mean he's wrong. It just means I'm limited in my comprehension. And more times, more often than not, just that component helps first responders say, oh, okay. It doesn't mean there's no God. It doesn't mean that he's unloving. It just means I'm limited in my comprehension. And so it's okay to have faith in that context.
SPEAKER_03:
9:13
So what you're saying, John, um you're outlining um one of the hallmark signs of moral injury is the questioning of one's faith, questioning if there is a God and what is the agenda of God. Can you can you list some other symptoms of moral injury that separate it from post-traumatic stress injury?
SPEAKER_02:
9:35
Yeah, one major component is the feeling of guilt that either I should have done something, either I did something that I should not have done, or I did not do what I should have done. Oftentimes this is the case with EMTs and firefighters, where, and I say it's the deadliest phrase, if only I had, fill in the blank. And there's this sense of somehow I have failed, and there is a feeling of guilt associated with that. And that's a a moral issue. Yes. And so a chaplain is able to help a first responder process that whole component of guilt. And the the other side of that is forgiveness. Uh lack of forgiveness is not only bitter, it's deadless. And sometimes moral injury uh involves uh seeing somebody who's done something wrong or being a victim and having to process that whole component of forgiving.
SPEAKER_05:
10:37
You're trained to help people heal, but first responders, they carry trauma that's buried under silence, stigma, and stress. Helping the helpers gives you the framework to connect, to speak their language, earn their trust, and actually make an impact. From the experienced team and clinicians behind the Responder Resilience Podcast, this isn't theory. It's real-world support for the ones who need you most. And this book isn't just for clinicians. If you're an agency leader, peer support team, chaplain, EAP, wellness program coordinator, or family member, helping the helpers will equip you with the tools, language, and insight to make a difference. Be the resource they can count on. Order your copy of Helping the Helpers on Amazon today.
SPEAKER_06:
11:45
And uh that can carry on. We are very tough on ourselves as a group and very good at carrying that you know that boulder um and not putting it down. So, how how would you counsel someone who is struggling with that forgiveness aspect?
SPEAKER_02:
12:00
If it's dealing with forgiveness of myself, I did not uh perform the way I should have performed. I would stress with that individual, none of us is perfect. There's no such thing as a Superman or Superwoman or Wonder Woman in first responders, among first responders. There is the recognition that I'm limited and I can make mistakes, but the world is not going to collapse because I may have failed in performing perfectly. You know, society obviously places a lot of pressures on us along the lines of performance. But when it comes down to a sense of guilt or forgiveness, there is helping a person recognize you're not expected to do everything perfectly. And sometimes we do fail. And when we fail, it's necessary to process that failure and then move forward.
SPEAKER_03:
12:55
And I think there's a with that, there's an overlooking of all of the wins, the saves, the the great decisions. Like almost as if those don't stand out as much as the failure.
SPEAKER_02:
13:06
Yeah, absolutely. There's a uh an illustration that um old psychology prof gave. If you draw a circle on a white piece of paper, a big circle, and then put just a tiny pencil dot on the middle, in the middle of it, and show it to a person, what do you see? Say, well, I see a dot. Say, what about the 99.9% of white that you see all the way around it? And for first responders, I think it's easy to get funnel vision on that dot and forget how many lives have they saved. And I don't know that first responders really uh understand the significance of that, of how many lives they have saved and the good that has been done that far, far, far outweighs some kind of misstep. Right.
SPEAKER_06:
13:56
Yeah, it's putting the focus back on the body of work um that has had a positive impact. Yeah. Well, I'd love you to talk a little more about sort of a day in the life of a chaplain. Um, we were talking offline how you started as a chaplain in the Stanford, Connecticut Police Department and then expanded from there. So talk a little bit about your career within first responder professions in Connecticut and what does that look like, you know, on a typical day or particular kind of uh incident that you respond to?
SPEAKER_02:
14:31
I don't think there's a typical day. Of course, yeah. Uh and honestly, and this is full disclosure, I tell uh first responders all the time, I never dreamed of being a chaplain. That was never on my radar. Uh we moved from Tennessee to Connecticut uh 14 years ago, uh, September of 11th, uh to pastor a church there. And in the course of it, I met uh in February of 12, I met the Stanford Police Chief. And I told him that my father had been a Marine in the South Pacific in World War II and that he had been a police officer before becoming a pastor. So I grew up in congregations where veterans and first responders felt very comfortable. And as a result, in all my congregations, veterans and first responders were very much at home. And when I told him that, he said, Would you be our chaplain? And it was out of the blue. I said, Sure, I I guess. And I didn't think anything of it. I didn't I didn't know what it involved, I didn't know uh the demands, I just thought, hey, this will be cool, be a chaplain for the police department, get my own badge. Uh uh, but then a tragedy struck with one of the officers. It was a near fatal uh incident, and the chief called me, and they called me Rev instead of Reverend Revell, it was Rev. He said, Rev, one of our guys went down hard overnight. I don't think he's gonna make it. He's in the Norwalk hospital, he's got a wife and three children. Would you go over there? So I went, I met with him, and gratefully uh he came through it, but I spent time with him and his family in his recovery, and that started to build bridges with some of the police officers. And so that relationship started to grow, and then Sandy Hook happened, and I was with uh our officers and other first responders in the area and family members, and that basically started to form my concept of chaplaincy and the need for chaplaincy because I wore a chaplaincy ID and I had first responders coming up to me who were part of processing that scene, and they just started talking to me, and I started uh to understand there is a deep need for chaplains to be available for first responders, and so we launched a not-for-profit lifeline chaplaincy to enable me to do that. So I transitioned out of uh pastoring at the end of 15 into full-time chaplaincy, and it grew from Stanford Police Department to then the Westport Police Department, and then Stanford uh 911 dispatchers, and then Stanford Fire Department, and then Connecticut State Police, and then uh finally a new town. And so I was chaplain simultaneously of all of those uh departments, but on call uh for across the state when the shooting happened in Bristol in 22, I got the call at 142 in the morning and ran over. And so I was available to uh Danbury Police Department where I met uh Stacy and multiple other departments to help with uh debriefs, and so it grew from just what was kind of a neat idea to a uh a passion and a drive and uh an incredible, incredible experience.
SPEAKER_04:
17:43
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SPEAKER_02:
18:15
As far as day of the life, um typically what I would do as a chaplain is I would uh identify the department and I would go and I would just spend time uh in the department with uh casual meetings, and then uh I would uh take officers out to breakfast or to lunch and just spend I'd go to lineup in each of the lineups, uh go to the firehouse and just sit with them in the casual times. And what happens is over the course of those informal uh gatherings, there's a recognition and a growing level of comfort so that when a crisis strikes, there's a greater comfort in calling. Uh my involvement with Westport was following the suicide of one of their sergeants. And after spending time with them over the course of four days, the chief asked if I would be their chaplain. And so it was uh with the state police. Every time I was asked to be a chaplain, it was following a critical incident in which I was invited to to be there and to assist the first responders. And so uh one week it might be just very calm and uh low-key, and the next week I get four calls uh where catastrophic incidents have happened, and I go uh with Danbury. I was there uh for two different suicides to the Danbury uh police department at lineup, meeting with uh with officers and going through the follow-up. So it it's not a it's not something that you can schedule. You know, you can you can have a general schedule, but you know it's up for grabs, and you can get a call at eleven fifteen at night, at twelve thirty at night. 142 at night at 4 15 in the morning, all uh those are actual times where a crisis has occurred and they asked if the chaplain could be there.
SPEAKER_06:
20:10
Thanks. Appreciate that.
SPEAKER_03:
20:13
So, you know, you just uh talked about responding to suicides at the Danbury Police Department. So I know that you are very focused on uh first responder suicides. Can you just enlighten us a little bit more about why that is?
SPEAKER_02:
20:29
Why I'm focused on it or or why there are suicides?
SPEAKER_03:
20:32
Um well I want to know about both. I mean, that's another question that we have is why the suicide rate among um first responders uh seems to be so high.
SPEAKER_02:
20:41
But uh Yeah, my my involvement it my first real uh experience with a first responder suicide was in Stanford, where uh a retired police chief uh took his own life in his driveway, and his wife came home and found him in the front seat of the car. And one of the first officers to come and uh start investigating happened to be one of his proteges, and he didn't know uh who it was, and he was shocked. And I spent time with uh his widow and his daughters, grown daughters, and their husbands and their grandchildren. For about two years I followed up uh with that that family, and I saw the intense devastation that that single momentary act inflicted upon so many individuals, family members, colleagues, a whole community. The shock wave that went through that community was palpable. It was like, oh my gosh, I never saw it coming. And then the same thing with the Westport uh police department, and each time Bridgeport uh and all across the state, each time there was an intense level of shock and horror with a large uh constituency, a large community. It wasn't just two or three individuals, it impacted a whole collective group, and it was devastating and it was horrifying. Uh and at that point, and I I remember clearly the decision, I was doing a presentation on moral injury with the Stanford Police Department, and this was in fall of uh 2020, I was in the midst of COVID. And I was doing training uh for them, and I said, guys, listen, I don't want to have to help any of your families process the horror that follows and is so associated with suicide. And in fact, from this point forward, I'm committing my life to doing anything and everything I can to keep first responders out of the morgue from self-inflicted wounds and sparing their families the horror, the unmitigated, unimaginable horror of going to the funeral home and making those funeral arrangements, and then standing in line as people come through to pay their respects, and most often they don't have a clue what they should say, but they go ahead and say something anyway. And sometimes it is so far off the wall and so hurtful. No family should have to go through that, especially when first responders are devoting their lives to saving others. And that's first responders have committed their their entire lives to saving and protecting others. There shouldn't be a need for the families to be healed and protected in the aftermath of the suicides. And so that's what led, and from that point on, there were more and more. I mean, it it continued. Uh as you mentioned, I helped uh first responders process the suicide of 15 different uh members of their community in just 10 years. And two of those were uh all but one of those was in two counties, Fairfield and New Haven County.
SPEAKER_06:
24:24
I want to have you kind of talk about the GY6 initiative and and when did that start in the context of these uh suicides you're talking about, and talk about what's the uh mission behind that. Sure.
SPEAKER_02:
24:38
Uh the idea came back um following uh the Assistant Chiefs suicide, and there were a couple of others, and I started wondering what if there were some kind of online resource where there were videos that uh first responders could go to and watch their peers talk about. You know, one talking about uh I almost committed suicide and I didn't, uh, and I here's why I'm glad I did. Others uh talking about uh their family members who took their lives and the impact. So it started back then in uh 2016, but it started to grow and uh three years ago one of my board members and I started talking about the prospects, and we said, what if we had an online community, a forum where first responders could go and they could view videos that were going to uh to help them process such things because it releases the stigma. Here's uh the basis of all of this is there are some incredible therapists and uh and facilitators, uh counselors, clinicians available. Phenomenal, and I've had the pleasure of working with some of them, such as Stacy and others uh throughout Connecticut. There are some amazing conferences available, there are some amazing uh reading materials available. But first responders are notorious for not wanting to go see counselors or therapists, yeah. They're notorious for not having time to go to conferences. I've been to a bunch of conferences, and one of the attendees said uh she was an EMT and she said, you know, we see the same people at all the same conferences. They're peer team representatives and they come and they hear really good stuff, but rank and file first responders don't have time to go to the conferences. And first responders aren't really known for doing a lot of reading. Uh and I thought, what if we take the best of what's been written and what clinicians have and do a conference, which we did, the GY6 conference in uh spring of 24, and have speakers who are engaging, who are both qualified, but they're also engaging, videotape those and then produce them into eight to ten minute segments. Have one-hour conference broken down into six to eight different segments, interspersed with testimonies from first responders that will underscore and reinforce what the clinicians are talking about. One of the things I realized early on working with Stanford Police, and it's borne out with every police department I've worked at, if a police officer is not uh ADHD before going into the academy, within within six months of graduating, their ADD or ADHD. They have the attention span of a three-year-old. And I've said that to all of them, and they all agree. There is no universe in which I see a first responder sitting down and watching a one-hour presentation on wellness. Right. But they will watch shorter segments that are engaging, sometimes humorous, uh interspersed with testimonies from brothers and sisters in the field, where they can do it on their own. There's no embarrassment, you know, it's no surprise to you or most of your listeners. Uh, there's a lot of ego among first responders. Like, I don't need to go see no stinking uh therapist. As a good friend Jim Riscotti said, they don't want to see a shrink. Uh but watching a 10-minute segment while sitting and waiting, there's no shame or embarrassment in that, especially if it's engaging. And so that was the idea, and we started it and uh have gotten the ball rolling. And now we're uh getting funds to where we can take, we videotape all those uh sessions, and now we're in the process of getting them uh ready. We're gonna do some uh some test segments, uh, some beta versions, and uh get them ready. But the goal is to get all of those up online free, available to every first responder in the country, uh on an app or online, and then uh build up the catalog, have more and more interactions, some specialized presentations on how to protect the family from the job, uh, some specialty uh uh presentations on how to be a parent in the midst of all of these things, and and build on it as the resources come to enable us to do that.
SPEAKER_06:
29:36
And you're addressing something that's probably known but not really talked about, and that's yeah, short attention span. Even if someone didn't have ADHD, we're working living in a in a society now where people are scrolling, and if I do it myself, if it takes more than five seconds to get to the point, I'm on to the next thing.
SPEAKER_02:
29:55
It's instant. Yeah, uh, but if they see, and we have some uh some colleagues that you guys uh know in some of our video clips, uh, and their stories are compelling. And another first responder is going to watch some of those say, Hey, he, she knows exactly what I've seen, what I've experienced. They're legit. So if they're on board with this, and the hope is that it would open the door for them to say, okay, it's all right to go see a therapist, a clinician. It's okay, it's good. These these are some real macho men on these videos who have recognized the need for getting therapy. So if they've done that, maybe I can do that. So the goal is to have uh uh links on this website that will direct them to the right kinds of resources in their area.
SPEAKER_00:
30:51
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SPEAKER_03:
31:56
I wanted to circle back to uh why you think first responders are prone to suicide. I know the numbers are coming down, so I certainly want to recognize that um, you know, the mental wellness initiatives that have been put in place are likely having positive effect. So, first and foremost, you know, uh, you know, it's good to mention that there is an impact.
SPEAKER_02:
32:20
Yes.
SPEAKER_03:
32:21
So but aside from that, there's you know, suicide still is an issue among first responders. And given given the personality types that go into this line of work, like what do you make of that?
SPEAKER_02:
32:34
Well, uh obviously it's a complex uh issue, and I don't think there's a simple answer, but yeah, just from my vantage point, what I've seen is some of what we've already addressed. Uh everybody who becomes a first responder automatically has this sense that they need to be a superhero. They need to be on top of their game all the time. And if they're not, they can uh start to feel uh a sense of failure. And in the job, there is a separation, or there can be a separation from the rest of the world. Uh my spouse, my family, they don't have a clue what I'm going through, and I don't I want to spare them all of that horror. And so there can be this sense of I'm going through this horror, and nobody understands it, and nobody feels like it, but I'm supposed to be strong, and so I'm not gonna go see a therapist. I think that's why I got you know my uh counseling center was the local restaurant or coffee shop. I'd get a call and say, Hey Rev, can we grab coffee? And grab I say, hey, I'm open to grab coffee anytime. That was uh that was code for hey, do you need to unload? Do you need to debrief? And having coffee with the chaplain, there's no stigma associated with that. Nobody sees that as being weak. But but so often this this pressure to be strong, to be powerful, to be victorious uh all the time. It's very much a performance-driven mindset. And if the performance isn't up to scale, there can be this sense of failure and as we have discussed earlier, a sense of guilt. And uh I think that's one component. The other component is what I talked about with the moral injury, is they can become so overwhelmed by a sense of darkness that evil is pervading, and no matter what I do, I'm not able to push it back. And so I think that may be a significant component in some of the suicides that I've seen. Uh, there's just so much darkness, and again, I've I said this to a presentation at uh at Danbury Hospital just before we moved uh a couple of months ago, that first responders can be agents of light in a very, very dark world. But it's so important that they not become isolated and think they're all alone and that they're failing in their mission to shine light in the darkness.
SPEAKER_06:
35:27
Yeah, that is critically important. I I have um used that reframe with people who are struggling with some of the darkness that you were just talking about, John, and to really remind them that um we are it's a ministry in a way, right? We are bringing light and love into people's lives at their lowest moment, and that we have that ability, if nothing else, to just be there with them, like you know, to be present to um help them through that moment, even if it's something like if they've fallen on the floor in the bathroom and need help getting up. Absolutely. I think that is the sacred part of this job that we somehow we forget or never never mention uh from from day one.
SPEAKER_02:
36:07
And if somebody has approached me from a uh religious or even specifically a Christian orientation, even Jewish, I say that there's all kinds of support from scripture that indicate you are being and doing what God has designed for civil government. God's design for civil government is to provide that protection for innocence, the rescue for those in deep need. That is consistent. If somebody is comes from a Jewish background or a Christian background, the Bible is filled with examples of the expectation that God's people be there to help the innocent, to uh protect the innocent, to save those who are struggling to rescue them. It is very much, uh, for a person of faith, it is very much a fulfillment of uh God's design.
SPEAKER_06:
36:59
Please share with us more about GYI6 initiative, where people can find it. And do you have any other events coming up, like a conference or any other um offerings you want to talk about?
SPEAKER_02:
37:09
No conference is scheduled this year. Right now we're focusing on uh getting everything together from the conference in 24 and getting it packaged and online. Uh you can go online and see some of these testimonies. It's uh simple, it's gy6.info. And if you just go to gy6.info, there's some of the videos that we've talked about. There's the the design, the strategy, uh, and it's all there. Uh and uh we're my goal is this year to get all of that conference broken down into these segments, get it beta tested and get it up online, and then from there build on it, start uh going to uh different uh first responder uh conferences and and conventions and getting the word out.
SPEAKER_06:
37:59
Excellent. Any other uh social media links or contact you want to share?
SPEAKER_02:
38:04
Yeah, if you uh if you go look for GY6 on uh Facebook, it's there on Instagram. Uh so all you have to do is is look up GY6 uh GY6 Initiative, you should find us.
SPEAKER_06:
38:18
Fantastic. Stacey, final thoughts?
SPEAKER_03:
38:21
I just want to say how much I appreciate Reverend um your dedication to um especially preventing further uh suicides among first responders, but making the material um uh uh available in a format that is engaging and appealing, you know, to first responders, you know, keeping the clips short and also having the uh presenters or or the commentators be first responders themselves, you know, because they're hearing it from their own. So I just really appreciate all the thought that went into that.
SPEAKER_06:
38:56
Well, thank you, Stacey. I appreciate that. Absolutely. And we can never have enough resources that are um designed like that. So uh totally appreciate that. And also I'm wishing you all the best moving forward with all these great uh initiatives you're starting, and I'm sure you're gonna have an amazing impact on first responders uh across the country. So thank you very much for being with us. Thank you. It's my pleasure and privilege. Remember to like and subscribe to YouTube, respond to resilience or Facebook, responder TV, LinkedIn, Apple Podcasts, and go to our website, respondertv.com for past episodes and get some information. Until the next time, stay safe, be kind to yourself. Take care.
