00:00:00:04 - 00:00:24:10
Speaker 5
Thank you so much for joining us. We are really honored to have you here with us on the podcast today. So we have so many things that we'd like to talk with you about. This is a topic Janine and I have talked a little bit about. We certainly have a lot of curiosity around the role of scent and smell in our everyday lives and how that impacts us.
00:00:24:13 - 00:00:44:18
Speaker 5
I know the original conversation that we had was around, you know, the, the impacts of scent and smell on memory and how that triggers us back to certain times in our life. But before we even dive into all of that, we'd certainly like to hear more about you and for our audience, help everyone understand. How did you get into this line of work?
00:00:44:18 - 00:00:47:11
Speaker 3
Yes, I'm so interested.
00:00:47:14 - 00:01:08:07
Speaker 1
Well, it's one of those circuitous paths of least resistance. And so, when I was an undergrad, my I was in biology, and then towards the end of it, I switched in psychology. And I did an honors thesis that at the time was called bio psychology. Today it would be called neuroscience in terms of what I was doing with animals and brains and drugs and so forth.
00:01:08:13 - 00:01:24:03
Speaker 1
And then I stayed doing that for a little while longer for, you know, a year, you know, a gap year before a gap here with what everybody did. Yeah. And, and during that period of time, I realized that I didn't really want to do that kind of invasive work with animals. I thought, though, that I liked, you know, animals.
00:01:24:03 - 00:01:43:07
Speaker 1
And I wanted to just kind of watch them in the wild, giving too long the story here. But anyway, the the bottom line is I started my PhD basically in ecology, and it was studying birds as a matter of fact, and spatial memory. So it does all connect in a way. And during that period of time, I realized this really actually wasn't floating my boat.
00:01:43:07 - 00:02:03:16
Speaker 1
But I had been really interested in somehow figuring out how to marry psychology and biology. So what could I study? That really was an interface between the two. And I was actually reading a paper, and one of the courses I was taking when I was a graduate student, and the authors had used smell to manipulate mood, and it was the very first time this had ever been done.
00:02:03:19 - 00:02:32:04
Speaker 1
And it was answering this critique in the field of mood manipulation, research and mood and learning and memory research, that the techniques I had for manipulating mood were too contrived and confounded. And they were like, you know, read these statements to make you feel happy, or read these statements to make you feel sad and so on. And the argument that the authors used was that the sense of smell was interacting with a part of the brain that was deeply and kind of primarily evolutionarily connected to emotion.
00:02:32:07 - 00:02:38:15
Speaker 1
And this was my background, evolutionary theory and so on and so forth in biology. And I went,
00:02:38:17 - 00:02:40:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. Here's.
00:02:40:21 - 00:03:02:01
Speaker 1
How I can combine psychology and biology. And I was lucky enough to have a PhD advisor whose research was not at all in this area. Yeah. She did emotion research, but from a completely different perspective. And when I told him what I wanted to do he said here's the rope, go hang yourself. But he said you know, fine, I can't help you, but you know, figure it out.
00:03:02:01 - 00:03:02:10
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:03:02:10 - 00:03:29:28
Speaker 1
And so this was at the University of Toronto. I'm Canadian, and I had I cobbled together a committee. I have a really renowned memory person, someone who did biology and smell in animals. And then my thesis advisor, who was an emotion person, and I actually visited various places in the U.S. at that time. I went to International Flavors and Fragrances, which is a major, as the name sounds, you know, manufacture of various kind of chemical preparations.
00:03:30:00 - 00:03:45:22
Speaker 1
And, you know, the joke was, who's the crazy Canadian graduate student who, like, just walks in the door and says, can you give me some smells? And not quite exactly that, that rasp. But it was close enough. And anyway, they gave me materials I needed for my research and they gave me some, you know, how to do it.
00:03:45:22 - 00:04:07:27
Speaker 1
Kind of a little mini mini class. I went to Brown University where the person who really founded the field that studies the psychological science of smell was trick engine was unfortunately no longer with us. And he was wonderful. He sort of came from that era of gentleman scientists and a stack of books and papers that I've left his office with.
00:04:07:27 - 00:04:36:08
Speaker 1
I actually also went to Philadelphia, which is where the Monell Chemical Senses Center is, and where my first academic job after a postdoc was. And that's where they study. You know, smell and taste really quite intensively. And I met some other people at the University of Pennsylvania, and I came back and I said, okay. And, I developed a paradigm to compare memories that were triggered by smell, compared to memories that were triggered by other sensory cues, but of the same sort of stimulus.
00:04:36:08 - 00:04:56:22
Speaker 1
So, for instance, if it was popcorn, you would have the smell of popcorn, or you would see popcorn, or you would hear popcorn popping, or you feel popcorn kernels, or you would read the word popcorn. And what I was interested in was actually really tying back to this question of our sense, the trigger for the most emotional memories.
00:04:56:22 - 00:05:15:11
Speaker 1
And this is just something that has been sort of said and taken as received wisdom, but there really wasn't any real kind of connected evidence for that. And I was really interested in this is sort of colloquially called the Proust phenomena. So like a memory suddenly comes back to you and you're really overwhelmed with so much variance. Yeah.
00:05:15:13 - 00:05:39:09
Speaker 1
And I wanted to see if that was really true. And my thesis demonstrated that it was so when people recalled a memory that was triggered by the smell of the popcorn, for example, their experience of the memory was significantly more emotional. And then later research, I found, was also more evocative. That is, you're really brought back to that original time and place, much more so than if you're recalling the exact same event.
00:05:39:13 - 00:05:44:08
Speaker 1
So you still remember going to the movie theater with your grandfather to watch Bambi when you were six?
00:05:44:10 - 00:05:46:04
Speaker 3
But yeah.
00:05:46:07 - 00:05:47:08
Speaker 2
That was yes.
00:05:47:08 - 00:05:48:03
Speaker 3
Where she just.
00:05:48:03 - 00:05:49:20
Speaker 2
Disappeared bring you back.
00:05:49:22 - 00:05:53:00
Speaker 3
And my grandfather had a movie, but it was actually King Kong.
00:05:53:02 - 00:05:57:20
Speaker 2
So way too young. Yeah.
00:05:57:22 - 00:05:59:14
Speaker 5
So wonderful. So, so so the.
00:05:59:14 - 00:06:01:13
Speaker 1
Memory is the same, but it's feels very different.
00:06:01:13 - 00:06:21:13
Speaker 5
Yeah, well, if I may kind of elaborate on this a little bit, can you help us understand? So when we have I'm going to call it a scent memory. That's I'm sure not the correct terminology for it. But when we have a scent memory, is it true that we have that memory more so because there was an emotion associated with that time and place?
00:06:21:13 - 00:06:22:20
Speaker 3
It's a good question.
00:06:22:22 - 00:06:49:25
Speaker 1
So that's a really, really good question. And the answer is actually no. So you can be having just the same emotional experience. So like I said going to see King Kong with your grandfather, there are a lot of emotions around that event. Maybe seeing but seeing the, the, the bucket of popcorn or somebody even saying, remember when you went to see King Kong with your grandfather, you would have a a memory of the event, but it would not be nearly as emotionally involving.
00:06:49:28 - 00:07:04:25
Speaker 1
And it's actually because of the part of the brain that's involved with our perception and experience of smell that is driving this really emotional, unique potency. And that's because it's the exact same part of the brain that's also processing emotion.
00:07:04:28 - 00:07:07:04
Speaker 5
So, okay, the amygdala.
00:07:07:06 - 00:07:28:24
Speaker 1
Which is part of the primary or secondary cortex where the conscious perception of our, you know, smelling takes place and we go, oh, I'm smelling rose, I'm smelling vinegar or whatever the case may be. That part of the brain is also processing emotion at the exact same time. And none of our other senses has the same kind of connection to that part of the brain.
00:07:28:27 - 00:07:57:16
Speaker 1
And another really central neuro neurologic feature or neuro anatomical feature is this other region called the hippocampus, which is conjoined with the amygdala. And that's where learning and memory is taking place. And actually the emotional memory is also involved with the amygdala. But learning the connection, the smell, the the popcorn, the emotions all around, whatever. Even if you're not paying attention to the smell at the time, it's being coated with it and then the memory bringing you back there.
00:07:57:18 - 00:08:03:02
Speaker 1
This is a really unique feature of the sense of smell that none of our other senses has.
00:08:03:04 - 00:08:24:08
Speaker 3
It's so interesting because I think about, obviously, you know, what you've described, and using my grandfather clearly made it really real for me. But does that then also, you know, I think about it's such a positive experience because it's such a positive memory with popcorn and I to this day absolutely love popcorn. I really think that was my first memory of actually going to a movie theater.
00:08:24:11 - 00:08:44:04
Speaker 3
And I don't like scary things. And King Kong was definitely scary for me, and I was probably 6 or 7. I shouldn't have seen it. But anyway, with that being said, is that then because of that memory being so connected, giving me then positive experiences with going to a movie theater going forward.
00:08:44:07 - 00:09:05:28
Speaker 1
So you're actually bringing up something else, which is really fascinating about our experience of emotion and memory, which smell really capitalizes on. So the emotion that you're experiencing, let's say I gave you some popcorn to smell now, but this is reminding me of when I went to see King Kong with my grandfather when I was six. And I have this really happy, nostalgic special memory.
00:09:05:28 - 00:09:21:15
Speaker 1
It's really positive and so on and so forth. Well, it could very easily have been at the time when you were smelling the popcorn in the movie theater, that you were terrified, you were upset. You were scared. It was, you know, the emotion was actually not so positive. I mean, it was maybe a blend of different emotions. I like being with my grandfather.
00:09:21:15 - 00:09:41:05
Speaker 1
It's, oh, I'm at a movie theater, it's in the pool and whatever. But this movie is really scary and it's upsetting and, you know, a variety of different kinds of things, but it's the meaning of the event to you, the memory event to you at the time that you're recalling it, that determines the emotion you're experiencing. So that can change over time.
00:09:41:05 - 00:09:53:07
Speaker 1
And my favorite example of of doing the, you know, the sort of steps of this is with the Cologne that your boyfriend wore in high school and, you know, when you first got together, when you smell that Cologne, it was.
00:09:53:10 - 00:09:54:15
Speaker 2
Hard to stop.
00:09:54:18 - 00:10:03:26
Speaker 1
Seeing, you know, you're madly in love at something. You love that smell. And then you're at the high school prom, and he dumps you in front of everybody.
00:10:03:29 - 00:10:05:00
Speaker 2
And it's the worst.
00:10:05:00 - 00:10:27:20
Speaker 1
Experience of your life. You hate the guy. You hate the perfume or the Cologne, rather. And, you know, it's all this really negative memory. It's so humiliating, embarrassing, awful, etc., etc.. Know, fast forward 16 years. Walking down the street, somebody walks right by you, same Cologne and you're like, oh my God. And you start laughing because you know, it's bringing you back to that idiot.
00:10:27:22 - 00:10:28:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
00:10:28:21 - 00:10:32:08
Speaker 1
Now it's funny. It's like, you know, remember when I was younger and.
00:10:32:08 - 00:10:36:29
Speaker 5
Yeah. So that's three very different experiences of the same scent over periods of time.
00:10:36:29 - 00:10:38:13
Speaker 2
Exactly. Yeah. Interesting.
00:10:38:13 - 00:10:45:20
Speaker 5
Right, right. Do we have the ability to manipulate our experience of scent.
00:10:45:22 - 00:10:47:10
Speaker 2
So so.
00:10:47:13 - 00:10:48:08
Speaker 5
Go ahead.
00:10:48:11 - 00:11:06:07
Speaker 1
Okay. So no the answer is absolutely. So what I like to say is, you know, I'm aroma therapy is real, but not the way people, you know, the way that aroma proponents would have you believe, like, you know, smell this and everyone's going to feel the same way. And it is a fact that lavender is relaxing or it is a fact that rosemary is energizing and so forth.
00:11:06:13 - 00:11:27:17
Speaker 1
That is absolutely not true. And it's not a pharmacological mechanism that is making you feel this way or not feel this way. It has to do with your own personal past experiences with the scent. So if, for example, you never smelled lavender before, smelling it is not going to relax you. If you don't like the smell of lavender because of, let's say, bad past experiences, it's certainly also not going to relax you.
00:11:27:19 - 00:12:03:28
Speaker 1
Marketing and marketing is huge with a sense of smell because is another really cool thing about the sense of smell is smells are invisible and we as humans are constantly look for what is it, what is it, what is it? And if you tell me something about whatever I'm experiencing through smell, chances are, unless it's wildly opposing my experience that I'm going to believe you, and especially with things like fragrance and the purported effects, or even for perfume, which is not really claiming any aromatherapy, but it's like, you know, the imagery of success and seduction and fantastic.
00:12:03:28 - 00:12:33:22
Speaker 1
This whatever you are set up to feel like, okay, I want to wear that because of the connotation or the celebrity that you really admire and so forth. So all of that is making you perceive the magical elixir in that bottle in a particular kind of way that has not like if you just, you know, we're in a sterile room and I unstoppable a vial that look like, you know, something in a chemistry class and just presented it to you, you would have a completely different experience.
00:12:33:24 - 00:12:51:28
Speaker 1
So what I like to say in terms of your question is that anyone can create their own personal apothecary by taking sense that they actually the key here is not fragrances that you already know really well. So like the smell of vanilla and coffee, even if you like those smells would not be ones to try to use when you're trying to manipulate yourself in this way.
00:12:52:01 - 00:13:11:23
Speaker 1
But, you know, getting a set of different kind of sense that you've collected, maybe going to some kind of a shop where you can get, you know, essential oils and, and essential oils are not the key ingredient here. It can be, you know, I'm just using that as an example to find, you know, like little vials like this, for instance, that you had experience with.
00:13:11:25 - 00:13:30:26
Speaker 1
Then you get yourself into a certain mood well, however you want it to be, you know, listen to some music that you love and dance around or sit meditatively or whatever the case might be, and smell that at the same time. And then later when you want to feel invigorated or if you want to feel relaxed, smell it and that would.
00:13:30:26 - 00:13:33:03
Speaker 3
Be that is a cool thought.
00:13:33:05 - 00:13:36:01
Speaker 5
That is absolutely fascinating. Yes. Thank you for sharing. Yes.
00:13:36:04 - 00:13:54:22
Speaker 3
So we on the in the car on the way here literally had a conversation about lavender or I said my doctor was using this oil that really helped my muscles, whatever. And she was like, oh, is there lavender in it? And I was like, I don't know. But we automatically associate that with calming. But, you know, people who work in the field of lavender don't fall asleep right there.
00:13:54:24 - 00:13:58:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Right. Right.
00:13:58:13 - 00:14:20:01
Speaker 5
Well, we also we're talking about how two people can have very different experiences of the same scent. Is there any detail that you can share with us about that? Why would we have a different sense of it, aside from our past experiences? Mean. So to me and I, we're coming into a scent that neither of us had smelled before, and I love it.
00:14:20:01 - 00:14:23:26
Speaker 5
And she is repulsed by it. What's.
00:14:23:28 - 00:14:48:01
Speaker 1
Yeah. So what's going on there is the fact that actually every two people or everybody rather has a unique nose. And unless you have an identical twin who's gone through all the exact same epigenetic effects as you, no one has the same olfactory receptors that are expressed in tuned as you do to the billions of chemicals that are out there that we can potentially perceive.
00:14:48:04 - 00:15:09:16
Speaker 1
And what this means, the the real issue here is that, you know, and both of you have a normal sense of smell. However, the fact that you have not exactly the same or factory receptors expressed, there's a possibility of over a thousand. And each of you has between, say, 350 to 400 different types of of those 1000 receptors.
00:15:09:18 - 00:15:29:17
Speaker 1
And you also have different numbers of those particular receptors that are responsive. And what this means is that in certain cases, you may not be able to perceive something that someone else does because you're missing the receptors to be able to. Okay. So the really the sort of classic example here is cilantro. And either tend to love it or hate it.
00:15:29:19 - 00:15:29:28
Speaker 2
Yes.
00:15:29:29 - 00:15:51:27
Speaker 1
The people who hate it think it smells like soap because they're actually missing the receptor for the herbaceous, you know, really green herbal quality that people love. Okay. So there's an example of and that's so this is an example of a common instance where a lot of people have it or they don't have it. It's often referred to when it's a don't have it that many people have is a specific anosmia.
00:15:52:03 - 00:16:13:25
Speaker 1
But we each individually have our own little specific anosmia as to certain things, which we can't really pick up, and other people can, and so on. Now it's also the case that someone could have a lot of receptors who aren't that are reacting to the herbaceous. Really delicious note in cilantro. But because they have so many of those receptors it's really strong.
00:16:13:28 - 00:16:18:11
Speaker 1
So they may actually find it aversive because it's like whoa this is super.
00:16:18:13 - 00:16:18:25
Speaker 2
I.
00:16:18:27 - 00:16:29:23
Speaker 1
Mean you make a perfect amount and maybe Marie is like I can't really smell it. So you know, and that has to do with the genetics that are inside our nose.
00:16:29:25 - 00:16:50:27
Speaker 3
Do we smell what we taste like? You. So if you didn't, you know, I'm just thinking of anything that you put in your mouth. But if you didn't go and instead just went straight to the mouth, is there still that connection then that that you talk about that brings not just memory, but just the overwhelming. It's too much, it's too little, it's too this is too that.
00:16:50:29 - 00:17:18:28
Speaker 1
100%. So actually the sense of taste is only salt, sour, sweet, bitter, and mommy, everything else that we perceive when we're eating comes from the aromatics from and our sense of smell. So for example, bacon tastes like salt. And there are 150 different volatile organic compounds in the bacon bouquet that we are inhaling and perceiving at the exact same time as the taste of salt.
00:17:18:28 - 00:17:38:07
Speaker 1
So what happens is there's an open airway system between our mouth and our nose. And you probably know this from if you have a really bad cold and or allergies, you know who doesn't taste right? Or maybe you remember when you were a kid, you know, holding something like, you know, some kind of drink in your mouth, someone's making you laugh and all of a sudden it comes out your nose.
00:17:38:09 - 00:17:59:29
Speaker 1
So that's like demonstrating there's this open system. Yeah. And breathing is the key. So while we're eating, we're inhaling. We inhale when we have something in our mouth. And then the exhalation brings the the aromatics that are in our mouth up through this open airway from the back of the mouth into the nose and whooshes by the olfactory receptors.
00:18:00:04 - 00:18:22:13
Speaker 1
And so at the exact same time that we're tasting the salt, we are having that sensation of the olfactory sensory neurons being activated with all those volatiles. And your brain is actually putting it together and creating this perception, which is referred to as flavor in the in the true sense of it as the connection between the smell and the taste.
00:18:22:16 - 00:18:39:10
Speaker 1
But because it's in our mouth that we're chewing the food, we think it's all happening in our mouth. And because, you know, we say taste in the mouth, people always say taste. But I like to go around. No, no, no, it's not taste because yeah, it's, you know, so many things taste like salt, but only they can taste like they can, you know, smell that.
00:18:39:13 - 00:18:54:12
Speaker 3
The smell different. So you're saying so let's say a potato chip and a piece of bacon. So you put both of them in their mouth. They're both salty. Your tongue is only going salt, salt, salt. It's the sense of smell that's distinguish saying this is bacon and this is a potato chip.
00:18:54:14 - 00:19:09:11
Speaker 1
Yes. I mean there's also textural things here. So like you know that. But for example, a, you know, a piece of raw potato and an apple slice of the same dimensions might have the same texture and tell the difference between them. If it were not for the sense of smell.
00:19:09:15 - 00:19:12:04
Speaker 3
Interesting. I wouldn't have even thought about that.
00:19:12:10 - 00:19:13:08
Speaker 5
Yeah, it's very fast.
00:19:13:10 - 00:19:15:06
Speaker 3
It's a great example.
00:19:15:08 - 00:19:20:02
Speaker 1
So when what? So for instance, during Covid, a lot of people said they lost their sense of taste.
00:19:20:02 - 00:19:21:02
Speaker 3
We both
00:19:21:04 - 00:19:41:11
Speaker 1
Most of them actually did not lose the ability to detect sweet or salty or bitter. They lost their sense of smell. And so everything that they were consuming felt like, you know, you know, we say taste because it's just totally off, you know, the wrong, you know, chocolate's not tasting like anything. It's actually probably we're still tasting label Sweden bitter.
00:19:41:14 - 00:19:58:25
Speaker 1
But the other interesting thing about when it comes to food, when we have that smell happening at the same time is the taste. The taste is actually stronger. So chocolate is sweeter when we also smell the chocolate aroma than it is. And we've, you know, blocked our nose and had the piece of chocolate in our mouth.
00:20:00:17 - 00:20:04:26
Speaker 5
They, they work as a team to help us get the full experience you know.
00:20:04:28 - 00:20:06:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. It's like yeah.
00:20:06:13 - 00:20:09:11
Speaker 1
So it's just team like. Yeah.
00:20:09:15 - 00:20:34:12
Speaker 5
Yeah I'm interested in knowing because you, you brought up Covid and I happen to be one of those people who thankfully for a temporary period of time, didn't lose my sense of smell when I first got Covid. And I say temporary. It's probably about six months before I feel like it. It more fully came back and I went through this whole I bought a, a scent therapy kit and all kinds of things to try and really bring it back.
00:20:34:14 - 00:21:02:01
Speaker 5
And in my experience during that time was, wow, how much I was missing the experience, my lived experience of things. And I started thinking about the mental health aspects, if there are any. And I think there are, of our connection between scent in all of our senses, of course, but can you speak at all about the connection between mental health conditions or experiences and our sense of smell?
00:21:02:04 - 00:21:24:26
Speaker 1
So, absolutely. And there's a very profound and and very real connection between the function of our sense of smell and our mental health and actually diminished sense of smell is very highly correlated to an increase in negative mental health conditions, particularly depression, but also anxiety and anxiety, as you probably know, is kind of a precursor state often to depression.
00:21:24:29 - 00:21:58:19
Speaker 1
But there is very clear evidence, and particularly in the clinical literature, with people who have like serious major depressive, depression, that when they are in actually an episode of depression, their sense of smell is actually weaker during that episode. And then when they get back to normal, their sense of smell also gets back to normal. And it's also the case that losing your sense of smell can have a direct impact on your mental state and actually precipitate a depression, even if you had no predisposition to becoming depressed.
00:21:58:26 - 00:22:26:11
Speaker 1
And this is because I told you that part of the brain, the amygdala that's activated when we're smelling and also activated when we're experiencing emotion, if you're not getting any input from the smell side, the emotion starts, starts to derail, and it can go in all kinds of directions. And so and particularly happens negatively where people have, you know, enter into depressions and it can actually get worse over time.
00:22:26:15 - 00:22:50:00
Speaker 1
The longer you don't have a sense of smell. So unfortunately for some people, losing their sense of smell can really lead to serious mental health, conditions and particularly depression. But there's also connections with other, mental health conditions, even schizophrenia like PTSD. So there's there's a variety of different kinds of emotional states that are really impacted by smell.
00:22:50:00 - 00:23:06:20
Speaker 1
And, and interestingly, it's it's typically a bidirectional relationship. So smell impacting how your emotional state is either positive or negative. Right. And your ability to smell, impacting your emotional state.
00:23:06:22 - 00:23:08:16
Speaker 3
So can this so okay.
00:23:08:16 - 00:23:08:23
Speaker 2
Go ahead.
00:23:08:24 - 00:23:21:00
Speaker 3
Can the sense of smell or can you then if you are in a depressive state, can smell be something that could be curative or did you have to train on that like you were talking about the apothecary earlier?
00:23:21:03 - 00:23:42:19
Speaker 1
So that's a really, really good question. I don't have, you know, a good necessarily clinical answer to that. I mean, remembering a couple of things here. So depending upon, you know, if you're in a state of depression and your sense of smell may be weaker during that time, it, it actually I think in general. So I think it's, it's, it's brain healthy to be actively sniffing as much as we can.
00:23:42:19 - 00:24:03:15
Speaker 1
So like going to the nose gym on a daily basis. And I would say there would be, you know, no harm. So this is like the no harm example. I mean, but again, I'm not a medical doctor in the PhD, that smelling things that you like, even if they were weaker than you kind of want them to be yours, that they usually are would only be beneficial from the point of view of your mental state.
00:24:03:15 - 00:24:20:25
Speaker 1
Because, you know, I like the smells, even though it's not quite as intense as it was. You know, when I was feeling better, I still can get it. I still really enjoy, let's say, the smell of lilac or the smell of, vanilla or the smell of a perfume that somebody that I loved wore. So all those things which can make us feel good.
00:24:20:25 - 00:24:42:23
Speaker 1
And actually the act is act as sniffing is good for our mental and cognitive health. So something that actually is, is preventative from the point of view of cognitive decline, especially in aging, is keeping your senses smell healthy. And one of the ways to do that is by deliberate act of smelling every day. So like, you know, I showed you this little thing.
00:24:42:23 - 00:25:07:17
Speaker 1
I mean, I have because I get them from all over the place or people sending this to you. But I make a point of actually not just sort of passive inhaling and, oh, you know, somebody is cooking something or whatever, but taking an inhalation and really sniffing at least a couple of things every single day, and it just takes a couple of seconds and the best thing to do and probably Maria, you did this when you were training, when you were working with your therapy.
00:25:07:19 - 00:25:29:18
Speaker 1
It is it's not just, okay, let's just say, for instance, one of the smells is suntan lotion. So you let's say you really like suntan lotion and you sniff your suntan lotion, and you, you don't just go suntan lotion to yourself, that you might go to the beach and a vacation and something like that, so that you're kind of connecting a thought or an a memory with the smell.
00:25:29:18 - 00:25:47:06
Speaker 1
And this is what's really, really good for cognitive health. And also in the smell training case of trying to help bring back your sense of smell again, like kind of making the connections again between both your brain and thought and the perception of the scent. So it's like a, an interaction there.
00:25:47:09 - 00:26:02:01
Speaker 5
Yeah. So is it true, the sense that you are smelling regularly, are they the same or do you switch them up on a day to day basis because it's so true that we get used to smells and scents. We can't actually.
00:26:02:04 - 00:26:03:04
Speaker 3
Desensitize to.
00:26:03:04 - 00:26:04:20
Speaker 5
It. Right.
00:26:04:22 - 00:26:33:12
Speaker 1
Exactly. So that's I'm really glad you said that, because I was going to try to leave that in to what I said before. So you don't want to just stick with your like, you know, for vanilla, eucalyptus, suntan lotion and a perfume, for instance. And that's all you're smelling on and on again and again. You want to I mean, in the smell training scenario, the sort of technique is you start with four distinctive sound, so you don't want them to all be, let's say all perfumes are all, you know, body products or something like that.
00:26:33:14 - 00:26:53:01
Speaker 1
Four distinctive scents. And then you want to smell them a couple of times a day, sniff and think about it. And you can do that for, you know, several weeks, 12, even 16 weeks, having that same set. And then you want to switch to another set of four different smells. This is if you're only just sniffing like a couple of seconds a couple of times a day.
00:26:53:03 - 00:27:21:24
Speaker 1
If you're doing more than that, then you probably want to switch it up even more frequently. And the best thing to do just in terms of like, you know, going to the gym, as it were, the barbell practice with your nose is to just smell as many things as you can, you know, any day, anywhere. So it doesn't really matter if you go to the Space Jam and you pick up the same thing twice in the same day, but you want to kind of like, you know, walk around your kitchen, walk around your bathroom, walk around wherever and pick up different things.
00:27:21:24 - 00:27:34:12
Speaker 1
Open the lid, take a sniff, think about it, you know, put it back. I mean, that's that's sort of in my perspective, the ideal way to maximize sort of the cognitive and the emotional benefits of your sense of smell.
00:27:34:17 - 00:27:38:22
Speaker 5
So I hear you telling us to stop and smell the roses.
00:27:38:25 - 00:27:40:20
Speaker 2
I, I always.
00:27:40:22 - 00:27:44:04
Speaker 5
Had to have had to throw that in there.
00:27:44:07 - 00:27:45:05
Speaker 2
Thank you. Okay.
00:27:45:07 - 00:28:21:25
Speaker 5
I'm interested in, in learning a little bit. You know, Janine and I do a lot of work together with companies and with leaders of companies, and I'm curious to know if there is a connection between smell or scent and things like productivity and well-being at work and that sort of thing. And specifically, if we maybe have a missed opportunity in using scent to increase overall well-being of employees at work, is that something that you can speak on?
00:28:21:27 - 00:28:50:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. So basically, just extrapolating from what I said about sort of the mechanisms of, you know, aromatherapy and your personal apothecary, it's you, I mean, it's definitely good. The ambiance and, and first of all, the ambiance and environment of a workplace. Definitely impacts perceptions of well-being and motivation. And, you know, if there's like fluorescent lighting and the hum and it's like, you know, a dull, a really dull visual environment and so forth, that's not, you know, the best atmosphere for work.
00:28:50:07 - 00:29:31:19
Speaker 1
So the more that you can make it sort of more positive and also multi-sensory positive, that's just going to enhance the physical environment in a, I would say, generally positive way. But when you're bringing in smell to, let's say, a workplace, again, you don't want to be having the same smell just constantly piped in there because. So the way that this sort of adaptation, habituation works, where, you know, you can't smell the smell that you've been, you know, exposed to works, is that if, let's say you walk into a bakery and you're your first walk in and you smell all the cakes and the breads and everything smells amazing, and then you're in there
00:29:31:19 - 00:29:48:16
Speaker 1
for 15 minutes or so trying to figure out what dessert you're going to get for dinner. By the time you get to the cash register to say, you know what? What cake you want, you can barely smell the bakery anymore. So you walk outside the bakery, you put some more money on the meters for your car. I'm just making up the story.
00:29:48:18 - 00:30:04:18
Speaker 1
Then you walk back into the bakery and now you can smell the bakery again. Like full force. However, people that work at the bakery, you might think, wow, they're so lucky. They get to smell cakes and breads all day long and they can barely smell it at all, even though they go home for, you know, 16 hours a day or whatever.
00:30:04:23 - 00:30:16:10
Speaker 1
The fact that they have been in this constant exposure, means that even when they come back, they can barely detect it. And it seems to take about two weeks of really being out of the environment before women.
00:30:16:10 - 00:30:16:29
Speaker 3
Next question.
00:30:16:29 - 00:30:31:10
Speaker 1
That smell it again. Okay, so for the worker environment you do not want the same smell to be constantly in there. And it's also not going to be the case that you may like Jeanine may like the smell that they're piping in this week. But Maria, you really hate that I did.
00:30:31:10 - 00:30:33:03
Speaker 5
I didn't think of that. Yes.
00:30:33:05 - 00:30:52:19
Speaker 1
You don't want to. This is silly. And the other thing is, when you impose scent on people, they also really don't like it. So the people that live above the bakery and can smell that, you know, the cookies and so forth, actually can't stand it because they feel like this often happens. Not everybody, but often happens. They feel they're being assaulted.
00:30:52:22 - 00:30:58:00
Speaker 1
I didn't ask to smell the cookies, and I'm actually making this garlic pasta dish and I'm.
00:30:58:00 - 00:30:58:20
Speaker 2
Killing.
00:30:58:22 - 00:31:01:20
Speaker 1
And it's really annoying me. So this feeling of having.
00:31:01:20 - 00:31:01:24
Speaker 3
It.
00:31:02:01 - 00:31:25:26
Speaker 1
Hosed on you not having control. And that's also a negative that people don't like that. But from the point of view of having like little productivity kit with you, you know, having like the little sense that you've personally connected to feeling more focused or feeling more energized or whatever the case might be. And when you're having a dip or feeling distracted, take a little sniffs and that could be helpful.
00:31:25:28 - 00:31:49:14
Speaker 5
Okay, okay. You had used the time frame of about two weeks where you have to be out of that environment before you can come back in and smell it in the same strong way that you did originally. But you also had used the the example of being in the bakery, trying to decide what you want to have. And just during those 15 minutes, your sense of that smell has decreased significantly.
00:31:49:17 - 00:31:58:19
Speaker 5
Is there a certain time period that that happens within as 15 minutes the window, or is there a certain number of minutes we can smell something that strongly.
00:31:58:21 - 00:32:29:01
Speaker 1
So there's two different mechanisms going on. The one where you walk into the bakery, which is what's happening there after you've been there for a few minutes or so, is adaptation. And that's actually a physiological phenomena that's happening with the interaction of the chemical and the olfactory receptors that are responding to it, where the receptors actually stop being able to respond to it, and they're basically get saturated with the chemical component, and they dive back into the cell body, and they're not there to be able to detect anymore.
00:32:29:04 - 00:32:55:26
Speaker 1
And then what happens when you leave that environment is the these these receptors are circulated. They're sort of recycled through the cell. And then when there's they pop back up on the surface again and can now be ready to perceive it. That can happen in as few as 30s, basically. And it depends on the chemical. It also depends to a certain extent on the receptors of the individual that are expressed and able to to respond.
00:32:55:28 - 00:33:14:16
Speaker 1
It seems as if the top end is, you know, 20 minutes. So for sure 20 minutes you're not going to be able to really detect it. Sometimes, depending on the chemical on the person it can be, it can happen really quickly. And it also depends on things like temperature. So and how much of the chemical there is in there.
00:33:14:16 - 00:33:36:22
Speaker 1
So for example, if you had a pot of tomato sauce bubbling on the stove where there's a lot of aromatics coming out, you're going to perceive that quite intensely and that adaptation is going to happen sooner than if it was just a warm, you know, I can sort of smell tomato sauce when I walk into the kitchen, and you'd probably be able to smell it for longer because there's not as much volatility.
00:33:36:22 - 00:34:00:10
Speaker 1
But it's still the case that basically 20 minutes in the kitchen and can't smell the the pasta sauce anymore. Now, if you worked like in the bakery or in a pasta sauce factory, you would have a different mechanism taking place, which is this habituation. It's unclear, and this one includes leaving. So you're not exposed to the chemicals anymore, but you still have this really hard time being able to perceive it.
00:34:00:10 - 00:34:32:26
Speaker 1
And this two week window seems to be the right amount of time to get released from the situation, and it's actually still really unclear why that's the case. And it seems to be a combination of physiological mechanisms as well as psychological kind of cognitive mechanisms. And so what's thought is that if you're constantly in the environment with the chemical and breathing in and all the time, it's actually also potentially getting, you know, somewhat into your bloodstream and your receptors are constantly basically exposed to it just because blood in the brain and everywhere else.
00:34:32:28 - 00:34:54:28
Speaker 1
And and so it's sort of constantly turning on those receptors. And so they're, they're dampened down. But that doesn't seem to be the whole story. There seems to be also a cognitive component to it that is, producing this decrease in perception. So one of the things, that's so fascinating about the sense of smell is we still don't really completely understand how it works.
00:34:55:01 - 00:34:56:20
Speaker 1
So that's, yeah.
00:34:56:23 - 00:34:59:10
Speaker 5
Still more research to do. Right?
00:34:59:13 - 00:35:21:23
Speaker 3
Yeah. I'm going to assume there's no. So like I think from a again, a marketing perspective and our program lead. Right. Wouldn't it be great if we can come up with a universal scent, right. That we bring in our candle and everybody leaves going, this was the best program I've ever been to. I am more effective all because we've curated this.
00:35:21:23 - 00:35:26:01
Speaker 3
Great. I'm assuming there is no universal scent.
00:35:26:03 - 00:35:31:24
Speaker 1
There is no universal scent. However, you know, you're, you know, a little, little manipulation.
00:35:31:24 - 00:35:32:20
Speaker 2
You're thinking,
00:35:32:23 - 00:35:51:18
Speaker 1
Isn't entirely farfetched. So if you had a scent that was novel, but, you know, you work to sort of have it be in a kind of similar category. And so let's say kind of a sweet ish, you know, vanilla e kind of category. I mean, this is what, you know, new fragrances are all different, but they're kind of the same.
00:35:52:12 - 00:36:12:02
Speaker 1
So you have it so you can hopefully feel like people aren't going to go oh my God this is, this is terrible. But it is unusual. So you want to kind of create work with a perfume and create something unusual and that people haven't smelled before and then create the most fabulous experience for everybody while they're doing this event with you, while that scent is in the room.
00:36:12:02 - 00:36:33:00
Speaker 1
And, you know, different sorts of things you do with them during the day. I mean, one of the things that, you know, I talk to people that do scent marketing and how do we make our retail environment more, you know, conducive for people purchasing or the work, you know, etc., etc.. And one of the things that I think is important is, for example, in the resort, for instance, you have the scent that's in the lobby.
00:36:33:03 - 00:36:49:11
Speaker 1
And that same fragrance is in the little, the little things that you have in your hotel room, the soaps and shampoos that you're going to steal. And when you're back home you're smelling that again, going, oh, I had such a fantastic time. I, we have this resort. So you could do a very similar sort of thing in the.
00:36:49:11 - 00:36:50:16
Speaker 2
Association and.
00:36:50:16 - 00:36:51:29
Speaker 1
Have those candles in there.
00:36:51:29 - 00:36:57:16
Speaker 5
So we need to create a lead right perfume that we can send home with.
00:36:57:18 - 00:37:04:24
Speaker 1
Or like, I mean the candle idea is a really good one. So like you have something to say throughout your event and then you're.
00:37:04:25 - 00:37:06:07
Speaker 3
You have a goody bag and.
00:37:06:07 - 00:37:07:24
Speaker 1
You have the little,
00:37:07:27 - 00:37:16:04
Speaker 2
Candle we need to set up. Everyone's got candles, more pens. Yes, yes.
00:37:16:07 - 00:37:28:15
Speaker 5
So what are you I'm interested in knowing what you're excited about right now, in the research that you've that you're seeing, that you're doing, in the field of all things scent.
00:37:28:18 - 00:37:57:10
Speaker 1
Well, so, like I said, it's still somewhat of a black box. And that is actually really fascinating from every dimension because there's always something new to learn more, to explore more things that could be. And one of the things I do a lot of is, is a lot of advocacy trying to convince people that their sense of smell is really important and kind of figuring out ways to really bring that home is is something that I'm, you know, quite passionate about and all the things that smell can do.
00:37:57:10 - 00:38:24:05
Speaker 1
I mean, I'm really interested in, in figuring out how to leverage scent. I mean, you just gave some examples to me in a business kind of setting, like, how could we do this or that? But there's all kinds of ways that scent can be used from, business to society to safety to medicine. I mean, for example, when we're sick, our body odor changes and the chemical signature that's associated to various diseases is actually fairly distinctive.
00:38:24:12 - 00:38:25:27
Speaker 3
That's why dogs and other animals.
00:38:26:04 - 00:38:50:21
Speaker 1
Exactly. But there's ways of trying to figuring out how do we figure out what that chemical signature is. And then, in fact, have some kind of an automated system being able to do that? So, for instance, you could be on a telehealth appointment with your doctor with a little connection to your laptop that's picking up your volatile signature and coating that and then giving the information to your physician who's like.
00:38:50:24 - 00:38:51:12
Speaker 2
Hey, we need to.
00:38:51:12 - 00:39:16:21
Speaker 1
Check you for pre-diabetes because you're actually there's acetone that's being picked up or whatever. So like, that's actually a real thing. And in fact doesn't even have to be, you know, connected by a screen. It could be the case. And actually doctors use it more deliberately in their office, like actually, you know, a breath profile detector, for instance, which would be helpful and not just a blood test and certainly a lot less invasive than a blood test.
00:39:16:26 - 00:39:39:28
Speaker 1
Just this is tiny examples. Yeah. So there's all sorts of ways which I feel like scent can be used. There's also the really fascinating direction that various people are taking of trying to figure out sort of a sort of a basic code for, of action, like we have, you know, envision, we have specific, you know, red, green, blue receptors for detection of light and so forth.
00:39:39:28 - 00:40:18:29
Speaker 1
And there really isn't because of all the complexities such as simple code or any kind of simple code for the sense of smell. But there may be ways of kind of devising a kind of a prototypical alphabet, like it's not exact to what you're experiencing, but you can kind of get to, some sort of descriptive dimension for smell through a set of quote unquote primaries, which can then at least be relatable so that we have a way of communicating that with each other, even if it's not the identical experience that we're each having and working on that and being able to apply that to technology where we can then really have a multimodal, multisensory
00:40:18:29 - 00:40:41:28
Speaker 1
experience of something which has eluded the media and entertainment industry. And there's all kinds of reasons why that there's a difficulty there. But, you know, bringing that in to a greater level of both technological and scientific, understanding and development there. There could be some really interesting things that can be done with that. So there's all sorts of things I'm, I'm very excited by.
00:40:42:00 - 00:41:04:00
Speaker 3
That's so cool. Yeah, I think about so like Disney obviously being so I'm here in Florida and Disney is huge. Years ago I remember going to one of their studios and they incorporated scent into the experience. And so when the Stinkbug shows up, all of a sudden in the theater, you smell stink and other things that go on.
00:41:04:00 - 00:41:26:20
Speaker 3
And I've been hearing about this for a really long time about how, you know, we're going to have centella vision where when you are watching a commercial, you smell the perfume that they're, you know, or the cleansing thing. And so it's interesting to hear you talk about the medical and even think about the medical uses for it. Yeah, but wow, what an incredible ability to be able to do that.
00:41:26:20 - 00:41:40:23
Speaker 3
Because, you know, we we don't maximize on all the tools that we have available to us. I mean, we we definitely and incredibly and intelligently designed to cure, you know, ourselves if we use all the things that we have at our faculties. So.
00:41:40:24 - 00:41:41:21
Speaker 2
Right, right.
00:41:41:24 - 00:42:00:27
Speaker 1
And it's also I mean, I'm glad you sort of brought this up, that sort of listening to your body, I mean, because what will smell good to you and make you feel good is not going to be necessarily the same thing that makes somebody else feel good. And that's where the sort of I bring in this consciousness with, like this idea of a scent alphabet that we could then, like, have everyone kind of quote unquote smelling rose.
00:42:01:00 - 00:42:18:19
Speaker 1
But that perception is maybe going to be positive for some person, not positive for someone else, and not just because I like Rose and you don't like Rose, but because the way that I'm perceiving that is different from you, and it's not hitting like the right, all the right buttons in the same way, but nevertheless. But but I think that's important to know.
00:42:18:19 - 00:42:35:26
Speaker 1
Like, you just you have to sort of listen to yourself and not just get told, okay, this is what this is. Even though language is so powerful with smell, it's it's also a question of kind of aligning it with yourself and knowing, for example, I really like this other smell. A lot of people say they don't like it but I do.
00:42:35:28 - 00:42:36:14
Speaker 1
That's right.
00:42:37:29 - 00:42:45:25
Speaker 5
Yeah. And I think we all have those you know if I think back I know I'm not sure how many people feel this way, but the smell of gasoline when.
00:42:45:28 - 00:42:46:08
Speaker 2
I.
00:42:46:08 - 00:42:47:27
Speaker 5
Absolutely adore which I think.
00:42:47:27 - 00:42:49:20
Speaker 2
I adore, hate it.
00:42:49:24 - 00:42:50:08
Speaker 5
Yeah.
00:42:50:08 - 00:42:52:22
Speaker 1
And there's a common when I get to that.
00:42:52:22 - 00:42:53:28
Speaker 5
Okay. Okay.
00:42:54:00 - 00:43:00:27
Speaker 1
And that's because of associations probably like that's what I always hear from people is like that, you know, pumping gas with my dad or whatever.
00:43:01:03 - 00:43:01:08
Speaker 5
Yeah.
00:43:01:10 - 00:43:02:27
Speaker 3
My dad ran against the station.
00:43:03:01 - 00:43:05:03
Speaker 2
Right. There you go. Yeah.
00:43:05:06 - 00:43:21:09
Speaker 5
I told Jeanine this morning, a story. My son, when he was, I think about three, we were driving down the road, and there was clearly someone had run over a skunk, and he just randomly said, please, someone needs to change his diaper.
00:43:21:11 - 00:43:22:28
Speaker 2
Know. But as.
00:43:22:28 - 00:43:36:07
Speaker 5
We're having this conversation and even before that, I was talking with Jean Jeanine about it, and I have to wonder, what did he where did he learn that that was, you know, a scent that was maybe negative or and so.
00:43:36:10 - 00:43:38:15
Speaker 3
Because mommy's poo, we need to change.
00:43:38:15 - 00:43:40:01
Speaker 2
A diaper, I don't there, I don't.
00:43:40:04 - 00:44:01:03
Speaker 1
So that's actually really fascinating because I, in fact love the smell of skunk. And the reason why is, as a kid, you know, five years old, in the backseat of my parents car driving, you know, the windows down, summer, bucolic, everything is lovely. And all of a sudden there's a scent coming wafting through the window. And my mom says, oh, I love that smell.
00:44:01:05 - 00:44:17:16
Speaker 1
She didn't say skunk. She just said, oh, I love that smell. And I'm like, mommy loves it. This is great. Yes, it wasn't until I was several years older and that scent was also somewhere in the vicinity, and I was with other kids and I said, oh, I love that smell. And they went, oh, you're so.
00:44:17:16 - 00:44:19:13
Speaker 2
Weird, gross stuff.
00:44:19:15 - 00:44:36:13
Speaker 1
So I had no idea. And actually and I've done, I've had colleagues from Europe, skunks, who are not indigenous to Europe with me here in Rhode Island. And, you know, in the springtime or summertime. And the skunk has gone by and I say, what do you think of the smell? And they're like, well, it's okay. You know, they don't know.
00:44:36:13 - 00:44:37:22
Speaker 1
They don't know that association.
00:44:37:23 - 00:44:39:18
Speaker 5
They've not been told what to think.
00:44:39:21 - 00:44:58:18
Speaker 1
But intensity is also a really key feature here. So I am obviously not responding to like, oh my God, it's so strong. It's also someone else, maybe your son also feels like it's a very strong smell and maybe also associates. Maybe there's something that he's picking up that reminds him of a smelly diaper smell.
00:44:58:21 - 00:44:59:13
Speaker 2
You know?
00:44:59:13 - 00:45:16:19
Speaker 1
And in fact, this word captain quality, there's, which is in the skunk book, is a sense that has, you know, is connected to fecal aroma and so on. So you may truly be picking that up and putting that into his past knowledge of what smells are.
00:45:16:26 - 00:45:35:01
Speaker 3
The connections are so amazing. I mean, honestly, Rachel, we could talk to you forever and we are both absolutely fascinated by this topic and appreciate your willingness to indulge us. We are not scientific. We are not researchers. It is more just a curiosity and fascination, which is really how we approach every topic we talk about.
00:45:35:01 - 00:45:42:25
Speaker 5
Yeah, we're happy that you are because we wanted to dive into this. So thank you so much for sharing to be with us today.
00:45:42:27 - 00:45:48:25
Speaker 1
Thank you for having me. You've asked amazing questions and your your energy is infectious.
00:45:48:27 - 00:45:58:18
Speaker 5
Is there are there any takeaways that you would like to leave our audience with in terms of calls to action as it relates to their own sense of smell that you'd like to share?
00:45:58:20 - 00:46:17:03
Speaker 1
Well, so, you know, the idea of stopping to smell the roses is really, really critical and realizing and paying attention to things that you're experiencing through smell or taking a minute to go, oh my God, I didn't realize when I walked into this room there's a smell to it, because the sense of smell is really involved in every aspect of our lives.
00:46:17:03 - 00:46:44:23
Speaker 1
And when people lose it, everything about their life often starts to unravel. Not just food, not just I can't smell the gas that may be, you know, leaking out of the stove or whatever, but social relationships, emotions, as you've already heard me talk about, you're even your sense of self, your connection to your own sense of self. And like being able to smell yourself or being able to have memories that are connected to your past three years, us through that.
00:46:44:28 - 00:47:06:22
Speaker 1
I mean, just about everything is connected to our sense of smell that we just don't pay any attention to. And it's really this really unfortunate thing when people lose it and say, oh my God, I totally took it for granted. I had no idea. Yeah. And so I really want people to realize and appreciate and use their sense of smell because like I said, it's positive for mental health.
00:47:06:22 - 00:47:12:13
Speaker 1
It's positive for cognitive health. Yeah. It's just it's good for you for sure.
00:47:12:13 - 00:47:16:05
Speaker 5
Well, I know I've certainly taken some things away from this that I will incorporate.
00:47:16:10 - 00:47:17:12
Speaker 3
I have a page for that.
00:47:17:15 - 00:47:18:25
Speaker 2
So. Right.
00:47:18:27 - 00:47:26:28
Speaker 5
Yeah. So thank you again so much for for joining us. And we'll certainly be following your work and excited to see what's next.
00:47:26:28 - 00:47:28:13
Speaker 3
And sharing with our listener. Yes as.
00:47:28:13 - 00:47:31:15
Speaker 5
Well. Indeed. Yes. So thank you for joining you.
00:47:31:15 - 00:47:32:20
Speaker 2
Thank you.
00:47:32:22 - 00:47:33:23
Speaker 5
Bye bye. Thanks.
00:47:33:25 - 00:47:34:16
Speaker 1
Bye bye.
