Megan Sprinkle: [00:00:00] Welcome to Vet Life Reimagined. Do people outside of vet Med understand what's happening on the other side of the clinic door? Many people have an unrealistic view of veterinarians. Even our own family members idolizing the job because maybe they once wished they could be a veterinarian, or they think we play with puppies and kittens all day.
It's a dream job with little struggles, right? Well, it can be a dream job, but even dream jobs come with a lot of challenges, and it was discovering a startling statistic about veterinary professionals that sent a couple of documentary filmmakers on an incredible journey into the world of veterinary medicine.
As a warning, we talk about death by suicide in this episode. Frank and Marie Barnes are here with us today to share the behind the scenes of their documentary cost of Caring, a film to shed light on the unseen struggles of veterinary professionals. They will share the intricate process of creating the documentary, the unexpected impacts of filming [00:01:00] during Covid, and their fascinating insights from a unique non-veterinary perspective.
So let's open that door in the clinic and let's get to the conversation with Frank and Marie.
This is gonna be a really unique episode to talk about this documentary that you created called Cost of Caring, and it is about our profession and I think it's exciting to kind of hear a different perspective of what you were seeing. But I would like to get to know you both just a little bit better
understanding your background. I think you told me you're both teachers, and then of course you're filmmakers too. So do you mind sharing a little bit about how you got into teaching and then found your way into being film directors?
Frank & Marie Barnas: Yeah, absolutely. Do you want me to start? No. Oh. Frank has a background in broadcast journalism, and I went to film school. He also went to film school, but before that he was at one of the best broadcast journalism schools in the nation. Missouri. Missouri, right? Yeah. Mizzou. [00:02:00] and so, when we met later in life, we were both teaching, but I traced my path through working in film, but at the same time, so I was in Atlanta, I was working on, you know, big budget feature productions.
I was in the production office. It was everything I was supposed to do after film school. And I ended up having this yearning to go back to education. I wanted to do something more creative with my time, but I also loved teaching. When I was in graduate school, they gave me classes and so I was like, oh, I really enjoyed that.
So I got enough out of the industry basically to go back to teaching. And so when I met Frank, we were both teaching at the same place. And I told him my love for documentary and he was like, oh, my background's in broadcast journalism. We're both teaching in mass media, but I've also made documentaries and it was love at first sight.
So it was like, we can, we can, be together and do what we wanna do together. And that's where it kind of blends. Yeah. If you do a Venn diagram, you see broadcast journals and is this circle and narrative film is this circle? The overlap is documentary
and [00:03:00] so we sort of got right there. We, we've been making stuff together ever since.
Yeah.
Megan Sprinkle: That's perfect. So what is something about making documentaries that maybe a lot of people don't get?
Frank & Marie Barnas: I think it's that this is just my take. I think that it is, you have an idea, you research that idea because this is nonfiction, so you're not creating it. It's something that's, that already exists in the world as we know it. And as you research it and get to know it, you learn something that leads you down an entirely different path.
Sometimes that path can take you away from your original idea, but sometimes that path, that's where the magic is. And so you end up, your documentary ends up becoming about that sometimes even instead of what you originally thought. What do you think? Oh, my take is that it takes longer than you think It takes.
I have an idea and say, I'm gonna do this. But then by the time you do the research, I mean there's pre-production where you're thinking about, [00:04:00] then there's production. You go out and shoot the thing and then post-production where you put the camera down and you start editing. That's all in good theory.
But we were in the middle of, Hey, we're writing this part. Now I'm producing this part. She'll start to edit, but then it's like, whoa, whoa. Wait, we, we've got something else we have to go back and pick up because you're basically doing a jigsaw puzzle. Without a picture as a reference point. You have to basically build a picture as you're going, and it takes a little bit longer you think. And it will also surprise you in that you'll be having dinner, you'll put the fork down and go, wait, I've got this and things, and that's it. You gotta go chase that idea right now. , so it is a little bit consuming like that, but if you stay with it long enough and just have the patience to work the process at the end, you can really get something pretty satisfying.
Yeah.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, I can see how those overlap too. Both of you don't have the full story and you can get sidetracked as like, oh,
you know, one, you could like go down a path and then two, when you're putting it all together, you might be like, oh, we missed something. We gotta do [00:05:00] this to connect
these two pieces. So, and then again, when you were describing that, Frank, I, I thought about that journalism aspect of things too.
You're kind of chasing the story and having to figure out what really is the story. Very cool. Now you are also both a pet enthusiast, I think. Uh, and so was that, did you grow up with animals? How did you kinda develop a love for, pets?,
Frank & Marie Barnas: I looked over, 'cause Boris, uh, one of our current cats, he's right over here. So if he jumps in at some point you've been warned, uh, this house is theirs. Yeah. They just share it with us. Yeah. We are the
caretaker. Yeah.
Sounds
Megan Sprinkle: like a cat.
Frank & Marie Barnas: But no, I, I've always had pets. I've always had dog. And when we got together I had, uh, two dogs.
She had three cats. And as they sort of aged out, we found. Other animals who are more than happy to, you know, basically join the household. Yeah. We've gone through, I hate losing them and it's so tough. and so we had a [00:06:00] house of five and now we're down to two. And it just takes time before you can get over them.
Before I think, before you get more, um, everybody I know has said, oh, we're really sorry you lost, Beans or Schmo or whatever. Just go get a new cat. And I'm like, it doesn't work that way for me. No. but yeah, so we've really, I, I grew up around animals. I had a family that had, you know, cats and dogs.
Nothing exotic though. Like, we have friends now that have goats and chickens and the sugar gliders we have pe like
real exotic stuff I think is pretty exotic. But we're a cat and dog and yeah, basics.
And they basically run our lives. We do everything around them. It's tough because when you make a documentary, you need to travel to get interviews and stuff, and we constantly have to battle the, do we board them? Do we find a pet sitter? It's hard to have somebody that loves your pets as much as you.
So we've been lucky here and there to find some good people, but they also [00:07:00] have lives and jobs and so it's tough. I mean, it's just like having kids and trying to do something like be on the road to work or, you know, do something creative or work in your day job. So, I mean, you know. Yeah. We've grown up and we've had pets our whole lives.
But yeah. And and it's weird how you build a schedule around them now, because I might wanna sleep in the cats eat at seven o'clock in the morning at 7:00 AM without fail, they must have food. Yeah. And if I ever said, oh wow, I slept till seven 15. I know about it. Boris walked across me this morning. This morning.
It wasn't seven either. It was early in the six 30. His clock was off. And so he walked literally across my forehead. Yeah. And then he went and landed on you. Yeah. And just, I mean, there are days when we're like, you have eaten more than we have. Yes. So calm down. Yeah. Like, you'll be fine.
And they've gotten like two meals in at that point. Or a meal and a snack. They get used to it, like Yeah. Yeah. They're your babies.
Megan Sprinkle: Timed feeders may be something you're
interested
Frank & Marie Barnas: Uhhuh.
Megan Sprinkle: looking at. [00:08:00] Just, just a little hint there.
Frank & Marie Barnas: We have go on like little trips. Mm-hmm. Um, but I am fully. Now that it's come full circle and you've said that. I have fully been thinking about that. Yeah,
Megan Sprinkle: I'll slide my little nutrition tip in there. But, uh. Well, I mean, it's, you know, you're describing things that I think a lot of veterinary professionals deal with too. Not, you know, our own animals for one, uh, our, our lives. Not to mention that we, we go to work with them too. So I, you know, I'm really interested to hear how you started to know that there was something kind of unique about the veterinary profession, and of course, you know, end up making a documentary about it.
But, as you know, you discussed it is when once you figured this out, you realize that not a lot of people outside the profession understood this. So, do you mind sharing kind of the journey to finding that out and, and kind of your [00:09:00] thoughts through it to get to the point of maybe interest in, in making a documentary about it?
Frank & Marie Barnas: Yeah, sure. So having pets, you take them to the vet. and I've got my first two cats that were like my heart cats, like the ones that, I mean, I will love every pet that we have and get in the future, but there are some that just are your very first, that really take, take your soul and like you just become bonded.
So, I got them in grad school and as they got older, they got into their geriatric years and I'd taken them to the vet, obviously over their lifetime. They got renal. Both of them ended up with renal disease. And I was so upset with myself, I thought, man, I did something wrong.
You know, like, but it wasn't, it's just cats. These were the first two cats I've ever seen that my family had had, or that I, these were my first two of my own ever. none of them ever had renal disease. I was devastated. [00:10:00] and so I started going to the vet all the time. you know, I think I did drive Dr.
Alexander who's in the film. I drove him a little crazy. but he's so good to me. I started spending so much time at the vet just trying to figure out. The food to put them on what they would eat. We went through so many different versions, as you know, like we tried all these different diets.
So that was a process. Then it was blood work a lot of the time, and then it was subcutaneous fluids. It was like stuff. and so I realized fully that I was becoming a client that was probably giving him a hard time. Like Schmoo looked weird today. Mm-hmm. What's that mean? But I also fully recognized how much he was investing in trying to help me on this journey.
So I got really close to him in my clinic and we, it's not like they came up to me one day and said, did you know there's this problem in veterinary medicine with, you know, suicide rates? It was just, it happened organically. [00:11:00] Um, our practice manager, who's our associate producer on the film, we started spending a lot of time together.
I sat down with her one day and we were just talking and I said, we need to do something about this. If I don't know, other people don't know, I have a vehicle, like I have a way that we can get the word out. And it literally just started this tiny little seed at my clinic and then it just blew up into one person saying, talk to this person, talk to this person, talk to that person.
It led to the University of Tennessee with Dr. Strand. And then that led to us down the road, a few people getting in touch with America's veterinarian, Marty Becker. And then that led us to like Dr. Andy Roark and like, I mean, it just became this huge thing and we were able to, luckily enough, raise some money to
fund it because it was a lot of travel and that's how it got started and how we were able to do it. Yeah. And what we found is that veterinarians, it is, I wanna say it's the biggest small town ever because everyone knows each other. And so we'd [00:12:00] say, oh, we're talking to Marty Becker. Oh yeah. I saw him at a conference.
And also, and Andy Roark, was working with this person and, and everyone knows each other. I think, uh, Marty actually said at one point you put all the veterinarians in the country into a football stadium together. 'cause there's not that many and there's literally not seven degrees of separation, but like three degrees or two degrees of separation.
Mm-hmm. Between every vet and by extension, every vet tech and everybody knows each other. Yeah. And so it was really helpful by the time we started making this, and then it get a little bit bigger and then suddenly you're having phone calls, people saying, Hey, do you wanna fly out to California? Can you come up to Idaho?
can you get down to Florida? Can get to, and so I. That's where the, the project, it began to snowball, but in a very good way. Yeah. And so we talk about you're building the stories. You go, that's exactly what happened. Start with a small story and then it became, there was so much more material and we wanted to put in every single minute that we could.
Yeah. Like we started with a topic like, a thesis, but we didn't [00:13:00] realize after peeling back the onion, like we knew there was this issue, but we didn't know all the things that could lead to it. Mm-hmm. And so that was the journey for us as the storytellers. Yeah. And it was, we were lucky to have people wanna talk to us about it.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, well, you hit the nail on the head there. We are. I call it the biggest little profession, but I like the way you said it, uh, because we are, we are, uh, a very close profession, uh, I think, I, I like to think that we're fairly supportive of each other as well.
And so when we see something good, we like to share it and.
And so I'm glad that that was your experience. It's like, oh, you
need to talk to this person too, to get their perspective. And also kind of neat that you were able to travel all over this, country to interview. So this isn't like, oh, this only happens in California, or this only, no, you got the kind of a, a coverage that I, I think is a, a true perspective of what [00:14:00] at least the veterinary profession in the United States is, is looking
at. And so kind of pulling back what you were saying earlier that, you know, you kind of start with an idea and then as you kind of dig in, you can kind of go down different paths. And that sounds like what you were discovering. And I liked how you said, you called it, you kind of start with a thesis. ' you're starting to put it in sciencey terms.
So for us that are like, oh, we get that we're scientists. so what was that adventure? What, what, what can you start with? And then what did you start to discover along the way that. Like you said, was starting to shape this overall narrative that you were creating.
Frank & Marie Barnas: Well, yeah, so one of the problems was that we couldn't put everything in. Yeah. We, so we ended up, we learned the, like all these things. and then, well, I'll talk about that later, but the thesis was why is there a higher rate than in the general population? Okay. And so there was a story that came out about a young man [00:15:00] who, whose parents we talked to in the film, Dr.
James Weaver. And as I was talking to Casey, our practice manager and associate producer about starting this, this little seed that was growing, we should do something on our, on her Facebook. For some reason, his story. Went viral. Like I think there had been, a few people who had died by suicide before him, and it was a chain in a short amount of time.
And his story for some reason came across people's Facebook from groups they were in that normally they wouldn't have shown up. So she literally said, she sent it to me and I saw him and I was like, this, we have to do this like right now. So it started out with like that thesis then sort of seemed like, can we talk to his parents and find out more about what happened?
[00:16:00] that led to talking to more veterinarians and we talked to like Dr. Alexander here and he led us to Dr. Strand. and then I, you know, I researched the news and the, topic was quite sensationalized. It was like, veterinarians are dying in an astounding rate! Like, I mean, it was like crazy.
And so I was like, but there has to be other reasons. and also we had to learn how to report on this because there's a way to report on suicide and verbiage and things that, that I've never, I've never done this before. And so well, once people trusted that we were being delicate with this and we had true intentions, they ended up opening up more and explaining, okay, look, there's burnout, there's compassion fatigue.
Mm-hmm. There's the leaving school with high amounts of student debt. There's, I mean, we even went into the match system. We went into how much it costs to start a clinic. Some of, and that's why I'll come back to what I started with. I. Some of these [00:17:00] things didn't make it into the film because we have a finite amount of time to get it aired, but we tried to go down as many avenues as we could and we learned all these things and we test screened it with some audiences and we got that feedback and what they could glean from it was being a client, they don't see your student debt they don't see the match system, they don't see the stress from that.
Mm-hmm. They, but they do know that if they've been in the office and they've given you a hard time because you were running late, that now in this test screening, they're like, I had no idea. I didn't know what it was like behind the scenes. I didn't know they were going from a euthanasia to a puppy like then.
So we really latched onto those things and that's what kind of created the film that you see today. Yeah. I hope that explains it all. Very well. Yeah. And, and, and kudos to Marie because the delineation of powers, there's a lot of overlap in what we do, but I tend to be more on the shooting end and she does more of the editing.
[00:18:00] And one of the biggest challenges we had was who do you not put into the final product? Right? And what story threads do you not put in? Because again, it it's what, 56 minutes and 30 36 seconds? Yeah. Specifically it has to be that exact amount for PBS and, and so there. So there's a lot of things that, you know, we talk to people, it's like, what about this person who's trying to get into vet school and doesn't get into vet school, but tries repeatedly?
We went down that path. Like we, we really, yeah. Yeah. And there's so many stories and we found that there's no lack of stories to be told.
Right. And I think the one regret we both have was that the, and we always say this should be a six part series on Netflix or something like that. Just get everyone out there. But even if we did that, there's still a story that you're not going to hear. And it's equally important. So we had to get something representative of what is going on across the entire industry.
We just really, so you were shooting, I'm editing. We had other people helping us. We were trying to tell a story we went back [00:19:00] and forth about what is the audience, because we were trying to maybe walk a line between, is this for. Pre-vet and vet students, something they should know before they go in is this for veterinarians so that they, feel good that someone's, having a voice for them.
and opening up, not that you guys don't have a voice, it's just that like, maybe not a lot of films have handled this, like, you know, delicately or like, and so is it for your industry or is it just for like, you know, my mom or your mom or people that don't know. Yeah. Or understand what's actually happening that causes the stress.
and so once we settled on that, I think that's why, that's the film that we ended up with and I think that's why it was successful and got on PBS. It's on PBS National now. We never anticipated that. Yeah. We thought maybe it'll be on PBS Nashville and we'll try and, you know, self distribute it, put it on Amazon Prime and Vimeo and stuff.
But they pushed it nationally. So like, it's on the same page right now as all the current events that are [00:20:00] happening in the country. Yeah. So like, you open us up and no matter what you think about our current administration, we're on there with like potus like right beside, I'm like, oh gosh, there's Trump, there's us.
We're on the same page. Yeah. I'm like, oh my gosh. It's just interesting because they've put us at the caliber of current event, right. as things that are happening, poli happening right now, politically in our country. And I'm like, wow, that's crazy. So I think we did the right thing by, by picking the avenues that we did to tell the story mm-hmm.
That we think we hope will make the most difference.
Megan Sprinkle: that was something that we had talked in our pre-call too, was who is this movie supposed to be for? And it was supposed to be the average pet parent
who, uh, as I, you know, I still, I have started to use this phrase 'cause I like it. Who's on the other side of the
door. Right. Uh, of the veterinary clinic.
And I think that is an important perspective. 'cause also the time you were filming this, and one I, I like, I, I've already done this to you once, I'll give you a second. Kudos for [00:21:00] being able to do this during the pandemic, because in the video you can see masks, you know, this was during the pandemic. Which I hopefully I can speak with from the veterinary side. I think the challenge of communicating with pet parents increased significantly during the pandemic. I think in general it's a scary time and people reacted to a scary time in not the most flattering ways. And I think it came out a lot on the veterinary professionals and for us who do care so much. We take it personally and we take it really
hard. And so can you share a little bit also, you know, telling this story in a, a really heightened time of, of fear and probably challenge us in logistically, but probably also heightened emotions. Like what were you kind of sensing around that
Frank & Marie Barnas: Well, okay. I think things happen for a reason. [00:22:00] nobody knew Covid was gonna happen. No. We had this
idea, it was sort of like right before, and I mean, this has been three and a half year journey. Mm-hmm. So if you look at the timeline, we had this idea, but by the time you raise money and like get into it and try and like get it going.
Because we wanted to crowdfund and do all this stuff. We're like in Covid. So I'm like thinking, oh gosh, should we stop? Should we wait? Like, But I felt so strongly about the message. I kind of couldn't stop. But I think that happened for a reason, because I think it was at a time where all of this was happening in your industry and people needed to vent.
Like they were like, I want to talk about this. And I think, you know, even I learned that with COVID, I had this perception that, oh, everyone's just running out and getting pets. That's a good thing because adoption rates are up. It was Marty Becker that actually explained to us [00:23:00] that it wasn't so much that people and Jim Clark Yeah.
People weren't just running out to get pets. It was that people were home with their current pets more. Mm-hmm. And that they were like. Okay. That's weird. Yeah. That doesn't look right. Yep. I didn't see that before. 'cause I wasn't here. So you have this huge increase in people. Just I would, I, I don't wanna say they weren't caring, but caring more and then going to the vet and then that flooded you guys and you're having to go out to the cars and not see them in the clinic.
And it just, the protocol changed. It was this confluence like of events and then this, I'm over here going, Hey, I wanna make this film. And people were like, well, let me tell you, like, you know, and I'm like, well, okay. I think that's a good thing, you know? and so I don't know what else you wanna say, but that was my take on it.
No, no. And, and Covid was, is a challenge just from the production side because now you know, can you fly, can you drive? Uh, if you see a Dr. Elizabeth Strand, we interviewed her outside. The reason she's outside is [00:24:00] 'cause that was, I think Covid was just kicking in that point. That was UT's protocol. Yeah. UT's protocol. So if we had talked to her. So it's a very wide shot. And thankfully our audio guy was just on it, so we shout out to Bobby. Yeah. Uh, but, but it was just one of those things that you had so many things going on, but you had to work around it. And what we found is that the vets still wanted to talk.
They wanted to be heard, and they wanted to say, Hey, this is, you know, now it's a problem that's compounded by another problem. And when you have people at home, like Marie said, when you have people who might see their dogs and cats early in the morning and then late at night, Hey, now I'm with you for an extra eight to 10 hours a day.
. Now I'm noticing that you're gonna be acting in a different manner than what I expected. Yeah. Maybe I do need to see the vet. Yeah. And so, uh, everyone's just swamped in their own way. We literally, this everything is for him. Yeah. And we just live here. I mean, this is just him.
This is how it's okay.
Megan Sprinkle: Yes. For those on audio, [00:25:00] we had a, a cat join us, so
Frank & Marie Barnas: My cat just walked across me and now it's in my
Megan Sprinkle: yes. Uh, that, that's a very good point too, is that that time did probably increase people's willingness to, to,
chat because it, it was so heightened and they probably did need to vent. So what an interesting perspective. Now, did you learn more by the end of this? Like, did you walk away more? All the interviews, seeing all of this, putting this story together, hearing maybe feedback from, the first audience. where are you now with the, the situation?
Frank & Marie Barnas: my gosh. Um, I learned, like I said, we peeled back the onion. I would admit, I started out with a narrow view of, of course veterinarians have a higher suicide rate because, you know, they went into this for loving [00:26:00] animals and they have to put them down. and I was very focused on that.
I didn't know, like communication was such an important aspect. Mm-hmm. That, it's a finite sometimes amount of money for people. It's a cash system. It's not like a lot of people. I mean, maybe more people do than I think have pet insurance, but like personally, we don't know anybody that does.
Mm-hmm. I feel like pet insurance is something that, and I mean maybe I'm wrong, but is foreign to a lot of people still,
and now I'm like, oh, that communication that happens in that brief half an hour that you have with a client that maybe hasn't brought their pet in ever or brings them in but loves their pet, but they're on a budget, like, or, you know, loves their pets so much, they would do anything but maybe it's not necessary.
It could be more harmful even. Mm-hmm. Like that com I learned that that communication in that exchange is [00:27:00] super important you know, we have that part in the film where, Dr. Journey's trying to explain how much some of this stuff costs and she's saying that we can do just the meds. , like treating with the meds instead of maybe doing more diagnostic, um, digging and so, and it's like a lot of money and the couple that have the dog and jour Dr. Journey says, there are options. Sometimes I watch that scene and I'm like, ah, she has to explain the money.
And then it kind of, I'm like, am I making a scene that makes people upset with the veterinarian because she's telling you how much it costs and it seems like a lot. Or am I really pointing out that there are options and she's saying, there are options, but if you wanna know more, you have to do this. And it, like, I really struggled with that, but I'm like, we have to edit things elliptically so that the viewer doesn't get bored, basically. And so we had to [00:28:00] sort of pick and choose those sentences, but do it ethically so that the original point is still intact and the original, conversation is still intact and the original feelings between the two parties are, are intact. but I feel like that scene in particular, what I've learned the most is that that communication is something that, it must be really hard for a veterinarian to have to do that constantly.
Because I think a lot of people get pets because they love animals or they, they bond with the, you know, it's the cat distribution system. You all of a sudden a cat comes up to you, you're like, oh, this is my cat now. But then when you have something goes wrong and you have to take it to the vet, you might not be prepared.
I mean, people are really doing the best they can. And emotions run high, and it's that communication. I think I would like to make an entire film on just that.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, I, I actually remember the scene very vividly. It [00:29:00] was one that, just really stood out to me too. I believe she was a neurologist, but she was a specialist and I think she was recommending imaging. And the imaging was gonna be quite a few thousands of
dollars. And the couple with the pet, they were a younger couple, very understandably, that's shocking. in the single digits of pets that are covered by insurance and that even then insurance in the pet side doesn't work the same way as in human
healthcare. So it's still different. Like, it, it's still not the, you just walk in and you feel like you pay a copay and you walk home, right? It's, it doesn't work like that. so yeah, there's still a lot of challenges and I'm actually really excited to have this conversation. It's kind of coming to me as, as we're talking because even though we are seeing potentially pet ownership is slowing down, maybe even going
down and visits to the veterinarian are actually going down a [00:30:00] little bit in
general. Cost of care is increasing. And so a lot of these things are kind of coming back, slightly different angle, but very similar. And so I think it's good to keep checking in with us, how can we do this better? and so yes, I, I am glad that, we're able to have this conversation. I know it's been a few years, but, it's important for pet owners to understand both sides, especially again, I think at, at the end of the day, you know, when we talk about assume good
intent, right? Oh my goodness. When it comes to veterinary medicine, these people are here because they are passionate about your pets. And, and you said trying to find somebody who cares about your pet as much as you do. There's nobody who cares as much as you do, but as close as possible is your veterinary team. I will tell you that.
Frank & Marie Barnas: Well, and Dr. Jim Clark, he wants to, [00:31:00] and there was a lot we didn't get to put in the film, but that I also couldn't keep going down that rabbit hole, but he's very passionate about the financial side. Yeah. Explaining like I, a project I would love to do is just talking about that.
So communication and then the financial side , because he, his point is that sometimes oftentimes students come out of school very like charged, ready to go. They've learned all the things, the science part of it, all the exciting things and they're gonna like do all the stuff.
And then he pointed out to us that they struggle with kind of even knowing what the things cost. Like, because you know, he's like, we're starting to talk about that more. But he's like, you know, and even Marty was like, when I was in school, it was very much like, you know how to fix the things. Now go fix the things.
and I feel like the communication side and then the financial side. what he's also interested in Dr. Clark is, How much does it cost to start a practice? what are you really looking [00:32:00] at?
Like, things like that. Just the business side of it. the more informed you are, like the better you can work with your clients on that. So yeah. Anyway, that's just a sidebar of what he and I talked about a lot.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. And, and to be honest, I think vets are more aware of costs than human physicians again, because they definitely aren't taught it either. And they're just like, oh, well, insurance and those people will figure it out, you know? it's definitely a unique aspect of being a doctor in veterinary medicine versus human healthcare.
I think, again, um, you know, the other thing that I, I'm really interested in hearing is, you know, I'm in the veterinary world. I, I hear this side of the door a
lot. I'm curious, you know, once you started showing this film to the intended audience, so pet parents, everything from that first viewing audience to ever since, what feedback do you hear?
Frank & Marie Barnas: Yeah. Um, I, you, I, I'm talking a lot. Is that okay? No, no, no, no, no. That's okay [00:33:00] because you're okay. because you know the answer to this one better than I do. We get two reactions. Yeah. We get more than the other reaction we get. Oh my God, I had no idea. I mean, Casey literally at, at her clinic, a guy, she was just telling him about the project.
He came in and apologized. He was like, I had no idea. Like, so we get that. I had no idea. Still, we, we first got, you're talking about veterans, right? And we're like, no. and then when people see the film, it's like, wow, that is. It's this like, you know, not like, I wouldn't say life changing, but enlightening.
Like I had no idea what was going on behind that door. Then we get the other, it's not, I would say 80% of the time we get the, I had no idea reaction. And 20% of the time it turns into, well, let me tell you a story about a time that I had a horrible experience with my vet.
Yeah, yeah. And they're very like, adamant about their experience and, you know, [00:34:00] people have their experiences and, they're, that's okay. and I have to, I find myself listening and saying, I know it's, that must have been hard. And then I find myself taking up for the profession as someone that's not even in it by saying things like, well, you know, I.
Veterinary science 'cause it's something I learned. Mm-hmm. It's sometimes not perfect because they can't talk and you can't ask them questions and you're sort of trying to like figure something out in the dark. They see that your, your baby from birth to earth, as Marty Becker would say, and veterinary specialty medicine is a whole other thing.
So you go to your vet, you're having a problem, you must solve all these things now and know all this stuff. you know, I try and like explain that and that softens it somewhat. Um, but those are the two reactions we kind of get. And thankfully I feel like we're making a difference because at least the 80% is like, I had no idea.
And I'm like, that's why. Yes. That is why I did [00:35:00] this. Thank you. You know. Well, and, and we have one screening where a, a high school teacher came out and nothing against high school teachers. They do an amazing job. They work hard. Uh, but she basically said, well, why are the vets special? Because. I'm a high school teacher, I have stress.
My days are hard. That's true. We're not negating the fact that anyone's job is hard. Everyone has a hard job. Yeah. But I can't wrap myself around how your brain works a veterinarian, simply because you have to learn everything about every part of the animal Yeah. That you're dealing with.
Unlike, say the human side. Hey, if, if I have a heart attack or something like that, there's a cardiologist. If there's a specialty for podiatry. So if I have a foot trauma, I go to that person. You have to know everything about everything to keep this patient alive and happy and healthy. And you know, the outcome of that doesn't work out well.
There's the euthanasia option, right, which does rear heads. And some, I think Dr. Strand talks about this very well, that some people don't have the reverence for the animal's [00:36:00] life. Right. And so it's like, well, it's gonna be this much money. Well, that's the obvious out. And so I think the reaction that we're having, that a lot of people when they see this, they think.
We didn't know there were so many different demands upon the vet student, right. The vet tech, the veterinarian themselves, and there's all these things happening all the time. So you really can't equate it to the stress and drama that a high school teacher goes through. You can't, because there's just, the stakes are so much higher.
Yeah. And you have to deal with them day in and day out. Well, and if there's all these other professions that are caring professions . And there's like all of these other topics, uh, like in all of these other areas, and they do come back to sort of the same thing with compassion fatigue. But I just feel like in our culture, we know and have been taught, or we've acquired a knowledge of firefighters, police officers, nurses.
Mm-hmm. Like people who are in other caring [00:37:00] professions, and we are like, oh, we know they must deal with it. An incredible amount of stress. The perception is what the problem is. The perception of veterinarians is that you just play with puppies and kittens all day. Yep. And that, and so for me, that's why it's important out of all the caring professions to sort of like explain more because people really have this like view of you guys as like Dr.
Doolittle, as Marty Becker would say, coming in and just solving the problem that is great and like puppies and kitties and I'm good. You're good. It's all good. And it's like, but it's not all good. Yeah. And it's, you know, here's all these factors and then here's where the stress comes from. And going into those like topics and then like you said, like this is the only profession out of all the rest of them that deal every day with ending life.
and multiple times a day sometimes. And you know, I know there are, some states that you know [00:38:00] Right. Do like, in the human profession mm-hmm. end of life stuff there are other, like, I did watch something the other day on, there are some states that can help you in, like, for really terminal people help you end your life early, but it's not like assisted suicide. But that is not like any equation to like dealing with euthanasia on a daily basis.
Yeah. That's the exception to the norm. Right. Exactly. For you guys, the norm is the, you know, there's that option. Yes. So, yeah, that's why I think it's important to really talk about this in this profession specifically. Yeah. Yeah.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, I, I think one, again, I wanna thank you so much for all of the work that you have gone into looking at, at our profession and wanting to share the story with the pet parent audience. It helps because it. It sits differently when it comes from somebody outside of the profession. Instead of us having to try to defend ourselves, you know, someone else is, is able to share that story from a unique perspective that can also [00:39:00] relate. And so I think that's important. That said, if you think about all that you've seen and learned, is there something that you think that veterinarians, veterinary technicians, the whole team, is there a good approach to sharing our perspective with pet owners that might help further let people understand a little bit more about who we are and, and what we do?
Frank & Marie Barnas: First, I'd also wanna just say, we centered this film around veterinarians. We tried to get in some vet techs mm-hmm. And vet office staff.
I want to say on the record, I wanna make a whole other movie about them. Like saying like, it is, it affects the whole team. It is not just the veterinarian, it's the entire hospital.
office manager, the assistant, the tech, the, the veterinary nurses, like everybody. So that would be something I would love to do as well, because that is a also a [00:40:00] different perspective. Yeah. Um, I know that Casey had put in their office during COVID, she had taped up on like the front door and then when people were, were allowed to come in on the front door, like, here's all the stuff we're dealing with, please ask us about it.
Mm-hmm. Um, we were ta that I think is useful. it starts a conversation that people might not have otherwise about, oh, what is this about? And then that dialogue can happen. We went and screened the film the other day at, at another college campus, and our friend was like, you need to start a campaign.
And it needs to be called Adopt a Vet. Well, actually I looked it up and they do have that, but it is for veterans. I don't know that the quite the answer, but I will think on it for a long time. And the second I come up with something, I'm gonna let you know.
But I, what I would love is that if the film, we didn't have to self distribute it, we could just, I feel like if we put it on YouTube, it would go worldwide. Like it [00:41:00] would our trailer that we made to raise money mm-hmm. Got 46,000 hits, like in a very short amount of time of time.
but I don't know. It's like we also, we need to be made whole for our efforts. So we're trying to make back any little bit that we can, but I don't know. Do you have an answer? Uh, well, I think if I hate to fall back on the, you know, just being nice to the vets, you know? Uh, because yeah, it needs ingrained in our culture somehow.
Like with, with. Firemen and policemen and . Right, because you're at that level of care because Yeah, I think the difficulty with the vets, I mean there's a couple things working against you obviously. 'cause no one knows what your background is. You when, when they come to see you, if it's not a wellness visit, they literally come to you on the worst day of their year and you have to fix it.
If you don't, you're. You're a bad person and people can always fire back on social media against you. Right. And say, well, the doctor was, you know, a jerk and charged me too much and all that. I didn't fix. They didn't fix it. Yeah. They didn't fix my dog. Yeah. The, the other problem I have, and this was something [00:42:00] that if you watch any movie, the Hollywood Depiction of a Veterinarian, that's true.
Uh, and I remember because yes, I watched Grey's Anatomy, but I remember at one time there's a hulky Vet in a flannel shirt. It's like, I'm a veterinarian. Lemme, and, and he was, yeah. That it's, and I'm thinking The Walking Dead, it's like, Hey, look, I consult, I'm a vet and all, it's just No, because he had no stress.
The stress was with the residents. Yeah. And I, and she's dating him and he's like, ah, my life is easy. It's okay. I mean, that whole narrative. I mean, you're right. I can't think of other examples. Do you have other examples? But no, I, that's a good point though. But I just know that every time Oh, oh yeah.
Hallmark movie the week. Oh my God. Lifetime Channel. Everyone. Hi, I'm a veterinarian, a small town in Colorado. Come on. Not, it sounds like I watch these all time. I promise I don't, but I had to research for this is like, how are vets portrayed, portrayed, portray, you know? Yeah. And how do, how do people perceive what the veterinarian is gonna look like. great point.
Mm-hmm. And then when you walk in, it's like, wow, you're having a stressful day. We had no [00:43:00] idea. And that was sort of for a lot of people, that's the launching pad. Yeah. Where you think this is what it's actually like in real life. You know, though, we did, when we were trying to get people to come to some screenings, initially, we put together little press kits.
Oh yeah. And they had stickers and stuff in there. Mm-hmm. And maybe we should take one of our stickers. And through Canva, where we made, made it. And I know a lot of people were like, oh, I hate Cam. But what it was, it was,
Megan Sprinkle: I love campus.
Frank & Marie Barnas: It was good for me. I'm not, you know, a graphic designer, so it served its purpose for me.
Yes. So anyway, I feel like after one of our screenings, there was somebody who went, it was probably Michael Shirley, I love him.
He, somebody took all of the swag that we were handing out to the people that came to the screening. Anyway, I feel like if we just made that stuff available and it was like, hug your vet today.
Like it was like stuff like that. Yeah. If we just put those things out. [00:44:00] You know what, I'll just say it right now. I would do that for free on our website because we have some tools on there like, you know, , post a good social media post. Yeah. Hug your vet if they want. If they will accept hugs. If they'll accept hug, yeah.
Yeah, hug them. We're not advocating going around just randomly hugging people. Yeah. Um,
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah.
Frank & Marie Barnas: um, and then take them food, donate to their Good Samaritan fund, like things like that if you can. But maybe we'll put some of the materials, like the sticker, like you could just print them out on paper, but you could just clip them and, and you could have them out for people to take.
And then they'll be like, what is this? And maybe that would start a conversation. Yeah,
Megan Sprinkle: I like
it. That is a good idea. And, and we definitely, I mean, you could do that anytime. I hate to, I never want people to pa pause and wait for a particular occasion that's months away to start a good idea. But yeah, there is a, like, veterinary appreciation day
and things like that.
Frank & Marie Barnas: what do you think I. I mean, because you're in the profession, like what do you [00:45:00] think will open up more conversation? Like somebody, like somebody would never have seen this film, they don't see this film. How would they know? Like what are some of the other things you think that might help?
Megan Sprinkle: Well, I mean, there was a reason I asked you was that, you know, we're trying to
Frank & Marie Barnas: Yeah.
Megan Sprinkle: figure it out. Uh, but you know, one of the things that we're trying to focus more on always, and this is a human thing, right? it is really how can we improve our communication? And I think some of it is on our side is stopping and listening too.
and sometimes it is hard to do that because if it's a general practice exam, you know, you, you feel like you have 15 minutes and it's not exactly a time to say, oh, and did you know that being a vet's kind of hard, you know? But, uh, but doing our best to make sure that we're listening to them too, because people don't.
Wanna listen to you if they don't feel listened
Frank & Marie Barnas: Right? Sure.
Megan Sprinkle: So I, you know, there, there's some opportunity there. it's little, but sometimes there's a [00:46:00] certain point where we can only control what we can
control I think if we can be the patient listener that we wish other people were to, that's a, that's a start.
And, and then we can partner with individuals like yourselves. what are people saying when they hear these things and, and how can we partner to continue to keep that conversation going so that people do see, you know, it is a kind of a catch 22. This is the other thing too, uh, and I think this is a, is a. Definitely a medical thing too, not just the medical profession. But if you think about that on both
sides is that we go to school and we want to be seen as very competent.
We want to be seen as intelligent and that we know what we're doing. And sometimes we're afraid to show the human aspect of
things in fear that that might lower our look of competence. And interesting enough, if you look at psychology studies is that when we [00:47:00] do show our humanity in certain ways, right? when we do pull in those human
elements, people actually trust us more.
Frank & Marie Barnas: Right?
Yes.
Megan Sprinkle: there's a phrase that we definitely get taught in vet school, at least I sure did, is that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.
Frank & Marie Barnas: Oh,
Megan Sprinkle: And. So I, I think it comes back to that. yes, we still need to be competent. We still need to know what we're doing,
but
we also need to make sure that we are conveying that we really do care. and it won't be a, a hit every time and not always our fault. Because like you said, a lot of times we might see that person at their worst day because something is unexpected to a living thing that they really, really
love. And, and so it's always, there's always gonna be that
challenge. But I think if we can keep returning to assume good content, you know, trying to do our best to make sure that we're showing how much we
care, I think [00:48:00] we'll start to see that things get a little bit easier
Frank & Marie Barnas: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Hope so.
And then what is your perception of our film and in the place of, of your industry, like, because again, we tried to walk that line of who we were making it for, and so yeah. We always love to hear feedback from vets too about what they think about it.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, I mean, I was, I really appreciated it. Um, you know, I've seen a couple of documentaries about PET before and not always loved them because sometimes it can take this, this extreme angle, kind of what you were saying about the headline. , and so I, I can see some people take things to the extreme and, and sometimes that may give a bad reputation on documentaries.
I think you did very well. I did say this
before the, the thing I, you know, watching it, you can feel a little depressed on the veterinary side 'cause, you know, and it's like you, you [00:49:00] feel it in such an empathetic way that it, a lot of it is, feels kind of dark
and depressing. And then at, there's like, at the brief end, you know, you're
trying to bring up the, the beat a little
bit. so there's
that and that's why one, I love being able to talk about it, like the behind the scenes and what was going on. So people can say that movie was for the pet owner so that they understand what you were going through. so realize that that's the intent of it. And I think that's so important. and one thing that again, we're also working on is how do we acknowledge the challenges in veterinary medicine without placing this assumption that this is just the way it's going to be.
Frank & Marie Barnas: sure.
sure.
Megan Sprinkle: how do we start implementing things to make things
better, support each other more, have these open conversations where we're comfortable on saying what we [00:50:00] need in a
moment.
Because that's another thing between colleague and colleague especially,
is that, man, you know, I've had three euthanasia this week already. There's another one here, Dr. Smith, can you take this one for me? And, and you know, like we need to be able to have those open conversations.
So that's, you know, what it, I, I would love for the veterinary community to watch the, this documentary, but also know that, that, you know, this is telling our, a part of our story to the pet parent so that they can empathize in a
way that they do not
see.
Frank & Marie Barnas: yeah,
Megan Sprinkle: Then when it comes to us, when we're gonna answer these, you know, these challenges that are being shown is that we need to come up with like this. Don't assume that this is just the way it's always gonna be. This means that this is a challenge that we need to keep talking
about to make sure that we are improving and supporting each other appropriately.
Frank & Marie Barnas: yeah. No, when you, when we were first having this conversation and you said that, I was like, that's the [00:51:00] first time that someone's articulated it well for us to really understand. Mm-hmm. Because we kept thinking like, oh, we did this great thing. For you guys, like please kind of like love it. You know? Like, well, what it ended up coming out as was, well you, we, I wish you would've gone into this more sure.
Or I wish you would've gone into this more when you said it like that. I was like, no. That encapsulates it. And it really shows us that things end often how they begin. We came into this trying to lift the veil and show what happens. So that people understand more because of that perception issue.
And then we went down these rabbit holes because honestly, like, and Dr. Kwan says this, but it's not in the film, but in his interview mm-hmm. He's like, people can get kind of obsessed with the veterinary profession and like, why we even went into this in the first place. I'm like, one of those people, I'm like, because I love pets too and I [00:52:00] love animals.
And I'm like, oh, it kind of makes people. Kind of like revere you and like go, oh, like, and of course they're gonna think like, well, since you did that, nothing could possibly be wrong. Yeah. Um, and so like, um, sorry, where was I going with that? Anyway? Yeah. So we wanted to go down these rabbit holes and I was like learning all this stuff and I was like, I wanna make something that explains everything in your prof profession so well, because I am a little obsessed with it.
But I had to keep coming back to where it's important. And our team that helped sponsor us, mentor us, you know, Dr. Bob Murtaugh, Dr. Jim Clark, Dr. Marty Becker, we had many conversations about where this was going, and they saw all of, I mean, this was an hour and a half at one point, it was an hour and 45 minutes.
Then it was an hour and a half, and then we, so we kept test screening it, having them look at it, and we had deep conversations about who the audience was. Yeah. And, and like I said, things end often how they begin. It would've shortened the amount of time to get the film [00:53:00] out if we would've stayed focused.
But I'm really thankful for the journey it sent us on. Mm-hmm. And I would be even more thankful if someone had the studio power or the funding power for us to do a five part series on your profession. Because I do think there is an audience for it. I mean, we see on, animal Planet or like on social media, there are clinics that do a lot to show you behind the scenes.
Yeah. It's kind of like, you know, any of those reality shows where you're seeing something about a profession or a way of life, and that's what reality TV is. I wouldn't make it like reality tv. I would just kind of take what we did, but go into like more of the stuff we didn't get to talk about or more of the things that aren't just focused on, coming back to the thesis of the high suicide rate that are like, let's dig deeper into the aspects of burnout.
Or let's dig deeper into the aspects of social media or into how Covid [00:54:00] affected, like, let's go into those. I feel like I could represent that well. We just have to find somebody that also cares enough about your profession. That's. From a big studio that could afford it, to put it into production because we're like two people that teach college students.
Yeah. Like, I mean, honestly, at the end of the day, that's where we are. And so thank, thankfully we have a day job. Yeah. So, yeah. Anyway, I would love to do that. Uh, I think it would be, it would be great. Yeah.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, well, you know, maybe we can get this out and we can hint hints that there's content there. Um, they just need a little support and, uh, I mean, we do, we have a great profession. We have a great,
We have great companies that really like to support this profession. So, you know, I think I said this to you is it is not farfetched that there might be a company out there that says, this aligns with a, value that we have in, in supporting this audience.
And it might be a great collaboration, so, we'll, we'll just not subtly put that out [00:55:00] there. if anybody wants to pick it up. And, you know, I, I love just talking with you about this, and again, I have such gratitude of your heart and passion for this.
Do you bring this on every documentary you've ever done, or is this kind of a special one for you?
Frank & Marie Barnas: We did Go ahead. You wanna take this one out? Now? You see how this works? This was a special one. It was. Uh, but we'd like to bring a little bit of something to it. This certainly the longest, , as far as production time is the longest documentary by far. We, uh, we did a documentary in Scotland. I think we shot in two days.
Yeah. We used to do stuff on food and travel. We still. We also have a little not well known at all podcast. Yeah. Barely known that. Just talking about travel. We love travel, we love food. Yeah. It's all the stuff, you know, like everybody else. The stuff that when you're not doing your day job, the things you, you know, wanna do.
, and so we used to just focus on that. We did a [00:56:00] documentary, a short documentary about a guy on the Aron Islands who makes goat goat cheese. Yeah. Like, and you know, it's like, we were like, how did you get the goats on the island? And like, how do you make the cheese? And like, it's a whole cheese making factory on one of the, less populated places on the planet.
Yeah. I mean, it's like, that was fun. It it was cool. It was neat. Yeah. But it didn't have the same gravitas. Yeah, exactly. As this does, this is really is for me, the first project that, and people say to this day, they're like. I can't believe some people are like, in our profession, I can't believe you pulled this off for the amount of money that you did.
And it's because I was willing to take chances and I was willing, we found people to their credit, like we found when we were shooting in, um, some parts of this, we had to get some other videographers and one of our videographers, Josh, shout out to Josh. Mm-hmm. I called him because I found him in some other way, like it was another film in the pet industry.
And [00:57:00] I, didn't even think he'd answer. I called him up, I said, I have this project. We are broke. It's a shoestring budget. I can only offer this much. He literally said to me, my mom and my mom's partner. Our vet techs. I will do it. Yeah. Like it was like stuff like that that I'm like, thank God we had the people.
Yeah. All the cosmic things for lining up all the cosmic, it was kismet. It was like, and so people were like, we don't even know how you did this. And I'm like, I had, this is the first one that I feel like I would die on the hill. Mm-hmm. To complete. Like I was like, this is it. Like I have to do this. Sure.
So, I don't know, put that passion into the five part series and it'll be magic.
Megan Sprinkle: I hope you enjoyed this fascinating veterinary story. We can make an impact in so many places. Check out the show notes for lots of resources. Please make sure you are subscribed on your podcast app. Subscribe on the YouTube channel and follow me on [00:58:00] LinkedIn where I hang out the most. You can contact me on LinkedIn on the [email protected].
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