Megan Sprinkle: [00:00:00] Welcome to Vet Life Reimagined. Many of our guest stories involve unexpected life events, and they discuss how that impacts their veterinary career. This one is no different. Dr. Andrew. Cini decided to serve in the military as a veterinarian, and he shares what that was like. Both the challenges and advantages, but what continues to be a heart thread in Dr.
Andrew's life is the impact of caring for a medically complex child, little Ethan, to build a supportive community. During that time, Dr. Andrew developed a well-known Instagram following under the name the Okay vet. We also discussed Dr. Andrew's involvement in supporting telehealth programs to support the war in Ukraine, as well as current projects like Serenity Vet a relief platform aimed at providing innovative solutions to relief work.
Our conversation highlights the importance of understanding and handling grief while balancing a demanding veterinary career. this is an under discussed topic, so I'm glad to share Dr. Andrew's [00:01:00] important story. So let's get to the conversation with Dr. Andrew.
when did you know that you were interested in veterinary medicine?
Andrew Ciccolini: Yeah, I, I think we get asked that question a lot as veterinarians, and I can't think of a specific moment where I was like, this is when I decided to be a veterinarian. I just can't think of a time where didn't want to be that, uh, it was always what I wanted to be, which is a very classic story for veterinarians.
And yeah, so no specific moments, just from as far back as I can remember. That's all I wanted to do.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. Did you grow up with a lot of animals or.
Andrew Ciccolini: I actually didn't, um, definitely had that family where my dad was like, no pets. Like we, we had one cat that my sister got for her birthday before I was born and like lived all the way until, I was in college and we got one dog when I was like eight or nine maybe. And that's all I had growing up.
Megan Sprinkle: Okay. Maybe there's some rebellion of, no, you didn't. I'm.[00:02:00]
Yeah. So when you, got into school like college and you were, you know, doing studies and everything, did you have an idea of what your career might look like? Did that change at all as you started to get into vet school? I.
Andrew Ciccolini: Yeah, I think in undergrad it was just so intensely focused on just getting in that I didn't really have a lot of thought until like, what would I do when I graduated? cause it's just so hard, right? So I was just so focused on doing well in school, trying to get that experience trying to balance having, you know, probably a little bit too much fun in college. so I didn't really have an idea of what I would do. And then in vet school, you know, it's pretty much always gonna be focused towards small animal medicine and had an interest in the military kind of from the start. probably one of the few things I didn't rebel against my dad pushing me towards, he really recommended it and it certainly made sense from a student loan standpoint. but applied for the scholarship my first year of vet school and didn't get [00:03:00] accepted for it. and then I didn't get a chance to apply again until my final year of vet school. And so I found out that I was accepted probably like six months before I graduated. Probably should have been making some different plans if that didn't go through, but I hadn't really done that yet. so I'm sure I would've ended up in small animal practice somewhere in Ohio after graduating, but made it into the Army and that was my next step upon graduation.
Megan Sprinkle: So I'm curious is your father familiar with the military or he just likes the financial aspect of it?
Andrew Ciccolini: He was in the reserves, army reserves as an infantry officer. so he had familiarity. Never, we weren't a like active duty military family moving around. a lot of his brothers were also in the military, like served in Vietnam. And, just really advocated for it as a good career path.
Megan Sprinkle: Excellent. what was your expectation with the military and , how did that kind of come to fruition as you started to get more involved?
Andrew Ciccolini: Hmm. I don't know what my expectations were. You know, I [00:04:00] certainly thought it would be different in that I'd have to travel around a lot, and that certainly was it. I think I. I expected to doing, to be doing more clinical medicine than I ended up doing, certainly with working dogs. and while you certainly have a working dog component that you care for, it's not really enough to keep you busy from day to day, except for a select few jobs in the military. and I think a lot of people that go from vet school into the military struggle with that aspect that you're just not doing as much clinical medicine as you would like to. it made it hard to get better as a veterinarian because be like, okay, I'm on clinics for like two weeks and then for two weeks I have to go do food inspection, and then I'm in the field doing military training for another week or two, and then I might be back in the clinic again for a week and then now I have to go travel to this training. You know? It just was really hard to get a lot better as a clinician because it was so stop and start. I wasn't doing it all day, every day. Um, so that was a challenge in the military for sure.[00:05:00]
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, so I'm sure you get asked by pre-vet and vet students on like, What's it like, what to expect? I have no idea. So I almost don't even know what questions to ask. other than I know that, originally you said you had planned to like stay in for 20 years and retire, so it sounds like there are some options, but what does it look like for someone who is thinking about military?
The. Financial aspect of, it is terrifying to see, especially now I think it gets more and more expensive as we go vet school and how the military is willing to help support that. So what does it look like from a financial aspect? What are some of the requirements? are there options? what is life like? Are you around other veterinarians? Like, do you mind just kind of sharing that picture?
Andrew Ciccolini: Yeah, I think the hard part about sharing [00:06:00] that picture is it can look
so
different based on where you get assigned and what job you're doing, but in general terms, the financial aspect, the best option is if you can get accepted for the scholarship while you're in school. , they don't do anything more than the three year scholarships.
You'd have to pay for a first year, but then if you get accepted, the next three years will all be paid by the military and they'll give you a stipend while you're in school for like your cost of living. so there's really not a better deal out there that I can think of. and that's why I was a little disappointed.
I didn't get that. but if, you don't, you can still get a decent loan repayment. I'd have to check and see if it's changed, but when I entered, it was 120,000 of loan repayment paid 40,000 per year that still gets taxed. which for me was, the majority of my loans these days. I know people are touching like 300, 400,000 and so it's not as big of an impact, there are opportunities to get additional loan repayment throughout your career.
So you, they often will offer more to like sign on for more years. so that initial [00:07:00] commitment is usually three or four years of active duty and then four years of what's called the individual Ready Reserves. So you'd have to do four years in the Army and then four years you can choose to be in the reserves or you can choose to not be active in the reserves, but they could technically call you up at any time. Uh, so it's considered an eight year commitment. , In terms of what it looks like in the military, like I said, it can vary a lot. , The Army right around the time I joined in 2011 started Their version of an internship program, kind of like a first year experience to kind of help with some of the challenges of people going from vet school and then getting thrown into a remote assignment, as their first job.
And they're trying to figure out the military and medicine at the same time while being fairly isolated from family. That was really hard on people and so I think it was a good move on their part. so that first year you're gonna be. With a cohort of, you know, other people that graduated at the same time, generally four to six other people, and you'll have some mentorship throughout that first year.
So that's [00:08:00] really nice. And then things can really go a thousand different ways from there. I wouldn't say you have choice in the matter in terms of where you go, but you do get input. so the assignment list will come out and, now they've actually changed it where you like interview with the different locations and you kind of like go through an application process rather than just, what we call human resources command, just filling in numbers and deciding where you go.
I think the intent was to make it a little more fair. I'm not sure if that's working. but at the end of the day, you, you may just have to go somewhere. and I think we all experienced that if you're in long enough, uh, you're just not gonna win on every assignment. Uh, and that certainly happened to me ending up in South Korea, which was definitely not what I wanted at the time. so there's some input, but I wouldn't say a lot of control over what you get to do.
Megan Sprinkle: Got it. And, and that makes sense. The, I mean, it is the military and you never know it's gonna be needed. And You also mentioned that, you have some really interesting [00:09:00] stories and you, you could really excite somebody and, and with the acknowledgement that those things are probably more like 5% of the job, but it's still fun to hear.
So I'm curious, what are some of like the things that you most enjoyed doing this work?
Andrew Ciccolini: I think, you know, one of the most fun things, you just get to meet so many different people, like I. I think if I hadn't gone into the military, I would have stayed in Ohio, which is where I grew up. Like maybe in Cleveland, maybe in Columbus, where I went to Ohio State. and certainly would've had a group of friends, but just, it would've been a lot more narrow.
so the the opportunity to move every three years and meet a bunch of new people, experience a new location was a really awesome part of the job that also gets tiring, right? Because you get used to a place and then you have to start all over. Um, so as you get older, I think it gets harder. some of the cool things that I did, I mean, I went to Airborne School, so I learned how to jump out of airplanes, uh, which is. Weird thing to be doing as a [00:10:00] veterinarian. and it was really fun to learn how to do it. It was not really that fun to like have to maintain, status as airborne. 'cause you have to keep jumping. 'cause if you stick around long enough, you see people get hurt repeatedly. Uh, and it's not something you wanna keep doing. I think, you know, one of my favorite stories of the military, just like such a unique experience, is I was sent to Sub-Saharan Africa for some training missions and I was in Niger, which is not a country too many people would and I was in a pretty remote location you know, I was just sitting around, we weren't ready to do the training mission yet, and one of the guys there was like, Hey, do you want to like, I can take you. Off our installation and show you some really cool stuff. And I'm like, okay, we're in the middle of the desert. I don't know what cool could be out here, but sure, let's go look at some camels or whatever. Drives me out, uh, not very far off from where we were to this like rock formation that's in the sand.
And we go in there and there's just all these [00:11:00] drawings of like giraffes and different animals on there that were from probably like, you know, make up a number like six, 7,000 years ago. And he just like starts crawling in the sand and he's like, starts handing me these little like, arrowheads and I'm just like. amazed by this experience thinking like, how many people have actually seen this? Like there's nobody that really lives, lives anywhere close to there. Like, it was just such a, a cool thing to experience.
Megan Sprinkle: That does sound really cool. and so in these unique places, how often do you come across unique animals, either just to see or that might also need your help too?
Andrew Ciccolini: You know, the assignments I did, I didn't necessarily run into a lot. the most unique thing being camels when I was in, You know, Chad and Niger and thankfully had local like veterinary medical professionals helping me 'cause I didn't necessarily know how to treat camels. Uh, but I certainly had friends that, you know, ended up in other [00:12:00] locations that might experience different animals.
But I never really got that experience myself.
Megan Sprinkle: That's kind of neat to be able to meet veterinarians in some of these unique places as well. Did you get to talk with them at any depth or learn more about being a veterinarian in a, in a different country?
Andrew Ciccolini: Some, it was a little hard in, in Africa 'cause it had to be through a translator. but I did, do training in Eastern Europe and Lithuania and worked with a veterinary team there. And I went back four or five times and just became really good friends with them. And, understanding how things were similar and different.
I would say it was more similar than different honestly, but Having that like instant connection with people because we're in the same profession, was really cool.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, I can imagine that, So you talked a a little bit about, some challenge when it came to getting mentorship.
was that mainly around the veterinary clinical skills. did you feel like maybe there could have been a little more mentorship around some other aspects [00:13:00] of, of just kind of living a, a veterinary life in, in a military way? I.
Andrew Ciccolini: Yeah, I would say. mentorship wise, I think it was okay from a leadership standpoint and like adjusting to the Army. and at least that first year I had really good clinical mentorship. The military is good at giving people advanced training. So there's a handful of people that have been through residency training and there's almost always someone available to call, maybe not necessarily directly on your site. but where I started having challenges and why I ultimately left was, uh, just some leadership conflicts, mostly with people that I wasn't directly working for, but mostly within the human resources command or other positions to affect your career. trajectory. But, uh, I think it just got a little exhausting to kind of be misled and felt kind of used to get what they wanted and they promised things and, and then it doesn't follow through. And that just gets tiring in a, in a career. And that's ultimately why I left active duty. I.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, no [00:14:00] matter what setting that technically could happen. Is, you know, leadership and, and challenges there. So yeah, that nobody likes not being in control of one their career, but poor leadership, you know, where you don't feel like you're heard is really difficult. now I do know you said that, you are still in the National Guard, correct?
Andrew Ciccolini: Am. So I'm in
Megan Sprinkle: Okay.
the
Andrew Ciccolini: Utah National Guard, for about another month, and then I.
Megan Sprinkle: Oh, okay. Congratulations. Now, how do you, because you were in the military still for, quite a few years, how did you start transitioning back into more of a, oh, what is that called when you were
Andrew Ciccolini: Civilian.
Megan Sprinkle: civilian? There we go see? Yes. A civilian life.
Andrew Ciccolini: yeah, I mean, at the, at the time I wa my last assignment on active duty was in Korea. it helped to come back to a strong economy. So it was easy to find a job. and I had a location to come back to in Colorado Springs because at the time I was married [00:15:00] and, my ex-wife hadn't gone with me to Korea.
She was still in Colorado. And so I came back here. and truthfully, life was just pretty chaotic at the time. 'cause uh, my wife was pregnant with our first child, which if anyone follows my story knows, was. Fairly complicated. so the focus was really on that. I didn't have a lot of thought until like, oh, I'm leaving the military and now I'm a civilian.
Like, I was just had like the next phase of my life to focus on. and I think the fact that I was staying in the National Guard made it a little bit easier. 'cause I, there is a sense of comradery that people get in the military that I think is a lot of people struggle with when they leave. Uh, and I still have that on a part-time basis, which I think helped a lot.
Megan Sprinkle: I can imagine that going out of that you don't have that support system, as built up. and then you mentioned social media and so you're the Okay vet on social media.
And so it sounds like this might be a good time to ask you a little bit about that. Where did that [00:16:00] title come from and why did you decide to start posting on social media?
Andrew Ciccolini: Sure. I think the, the name came from just like a life philosophy of mine of. Especially being a general practitioner of just be okay with being okay. and to me it's a healthy outlook. It's not a negative to say like, I'm just okay. Like as a general practitioner, there's just too many things we have to do.
It's impossible to be, I. Good or great at everything. And some things we're just gonna be okay at it. Uh, it doesn't mean we don't try to be better and, you know, spend the time to look things up, but you're just never gonna be great at all the things we're expected to do. so being okay with it, I think actually helps your mental state and emotional wellbeing personally. Um, so that's why I go with that. And, I say it all the time, like I really am like just okay. Like, yeah, I have a few things I'm, much better at. Like, dentistry is a specialty of mine. I'm really good at that. But most other things like. I mean, I'm just, okay. You know, I'll put the work and the effort in, but in terms [00:17:00] of clinical skills, I'm okay.
And I'm okay with that. then your other question was why, why I started social media. would say it wasn't super intentional, like it wasn't intended to grow what it came into. I kind of started it more planning just to share my experience with my son at the time, and try to develop a.
Community around that because it was a fairly isolating event. Uh, it was during Covid, which was isolating in and of itself. and also just caring for a medically complex child is very isolating 'cause, almost the entirety of her focus, it's just on caring for him or her. so I was really looking for that community. and, you know, didn't really know what I was doing with social media. Didn't necessarily, I. focus down my content. Uh, so it was partly sharing him and still sharing veterinary medicine. And, um, so I ended up developing a really strong community on there within veterinary medicine. That has really helped me a lot, and [00:18:00] still does to this day.
I mean, I think it's so fun going to a conference and like running into people you've never met, but you've been friends in a way on social media for forever. so that's really cool. And it just kind of also became this like creative outlet for me. I've. Pretty much most of my life been like the very serious, military guy and like, play sports, don't, participate in art. and so it was really fun to kind of have this creative outlet to show I have kind of a, you know, a weird, sometimes dark sense of humor, which doesn't necessarily uncommon in veterinary medicine that comes out on social media. And so it's been fun in that way. and now it's kind of, I mean, it's morphed into almost a job in and of itself.
Megan Sprinkle: I hear you. We were talking about podcast editing before, so, well, and I, you mentioned this being around the time of the pandemic, and I think probably a huge time where people in general, but I think especially in our profession, we're, we're dealing with a lot [00:19:00] and it's not hard to feel isolated in veterinary medicine sometimes.
It's a few doctor practice. You're not all practicing it the same. If you are, you're seeing different, you know, it, it's just a little bit different and so I, I think that was a really neat outcome for you for creating a community like that. 'cause I'm sure other people really appreciate it. Now, just for those who may not be as familiar, do you mind sharing a little bit more about the story around your son?
Andrew Ciccolini: Yeah, absolutely. I love talking about him. Um, so his name's Ethan And complications developed during pregnancy. While, you know, I was in Korea, she was in Colorado, and, you know, first, first ultrasound was completely fine. and second ultrasound, just, I think we've all kind of heard the similar story of just kind of some silence and, uh, you just kind of get this feeling like something's wrong.
I wasn't, I wasn't there. So it's just being shared with me. and. They were like, yeah, we noticed some potential complications. We need to refer you. [00:20:00] This was on Fort Carson, sort of through the military, refer off post to a civilian provider for additional imaging. we were kinda like, oh, okay. had to wait a few weeks before we could be seen not really knowing what to expect. And then it was just kind of a lot of chaos from there. the initial ultrasound, they were really worried and talking about like having to do surgery in utero, cardiac surgery and like sent my wife up that wife at the time up to Denver. and you know, this is, this is all occurring at like two o'clock in the morning or some absurd hour in Korea 'cause of the time difference.
And so I'm constantly getting these phone calls and, not to go into too much details, but there were a lot of medical appointments, never really figured out what exactly was wrong. Never had any surgeries during the pregnancy. and it definitely. I, I was already pretty sure I was leaving the military, but it's solidified like the need to leave, because we didn't really know what to expect and, Being able to like, move around and go to [00:21:00] different assignments and, care for a medically complex child is really challenging. so I got back from Korea two weeks before he was born. probably like the day after I got back. She was, uh, hospitalized and kept in the hospital until the birth, which was planned for 10-10 at 9:00 AM in like, I think the time of his birth was like 9:02 or 9:03.
Like they, they were done like that. Uh, and we still didn't even know what to expect when he was born. 'cause none of the doctors really knew, didn't even know if he would survive the birth. And there was kinda like this calm before the storm, the first like two days. He was, seemed to be doing okay. and one doctor even was gonna send us home. Uh, and thankfully another doctor came in and was like. that's not happening. Uh, you guys need to go to the nicu, which was in a different facility, connected, but had to move over to a different hospital. Uh, I'm glad we did 'cause [00:22:00] a lot of complications developed To kind of give this shorter story, uh, after about four or five months, we finally got some genetic testing that confirmed he had a genetic defect in what's called his RPL 10 gene. which there's only like a couple cases out there, so it doesn't have any like name or anything, but essentially just caused a lot of developmental problems. So we had multiple brain abnormalities, kidney abnormalities, lung abnormalities, heart abnormalities. So just a lot of stuff. Spent his first four, four and a half months in nicu. and then went home and ended up back in the nicu and, took us a really long time to get him doing better, but eventually he did, and we had some really amazing times with him. Uh, any, again, anybody that follows my social media. If you don't, I definitely recommend hopping on there and seeing some of the videos and pictures I've posted of him. He had the best smile and the best hair. he loved having books read to him and just hanging out with mom [00:23:00] and dad and the dogs. Um, so he was this amazing kid. Extremely grateful for the time that we had with him. It was definitely very stressful. was like medicine all the time, you know, trying to go to work in veterinary medicine and then leaving, and either being in the hospital, caring for him with doctors, talking to doctors and nurses, or caring for him at home. It was just like 24 7 medicine. that kind of got pretty draining. and then unfortunately, you know, he had complications. From all his different diseases and passed away in 2022. and you know, I was there when he passed and having to see them do CPR and we actually had to do CPR on, on him once ourselves at home, uh, due to an episode. and it is just made being around veterinary medicine difficult for me. Ever since then. Uh, I've been able to do it. I still do clinical medicine, but. It's not something I enjoy as much anymore. especially the [00:24:00] routine stuff is easier to handle, but being around like emergencies and things like that definitely are, are tougher. and trying to figure out how to best navigate that and veterinary medicine has, has been a challenge and something I'm working on and I think talking about it helps, and hopefully someday I can provide, help for others struggling with a similar thing. I don't think it's unusual for not just veterinary, but medical professionals in general to struggle with how to manage their own grief while working in their job, because we're around loss all the time.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, and we may come back to that. 'cause I think that is a, if I may call it a, a passion project right now is learning more about grief and how we can best handle it. I had a conversation just earlier today with someone who is a coach and talking about some of the. Things that's unique to the people who are attracted to veterinary medicine is we often think, well, I I'm just gonna handle everything myself. I made it through vet school. I made it through this career. I, I [00:25:00] can handle everything else. And it's just not always the case. and it's so wonderful of you to be open to helping other people with this because I, I mean, I, I'm a newer parent. I have a seven month old and there's nobody who can fully understand, I'm sure, the loss of a child than someone else who has gone through it.
And, and so, I think going back to your willingness to start a community of, people that needs to support, I think is, is really great. 'cause that's what people are gonna need. And, and so, you mentioned you, you needed something different at this time. You needed to get away from such direct medicine so often, and I think there was also some interests and, in flexibility, especially, supporting your, your son at the time as well.
So I know you started a, a master's program and. You, you found a nonprofit, which was still a lot of medicine though, I think so. Do you [00:26:00] mind sharing just a little bit about kind of the, career journey, trying to figure out like what's gonna really work best for me? That I can thrive and still get, you know, do what I, I would like to do with a career.
Andrew Ciccolini: Yeah, I think, uh, getting back to the career journey, you know, when I initially left the military, I started working at Banfield to start. cause I figured it'd provide a lot more flexibility than like working for a private practice. Which is what I needed to be able to care for Ethan, and it definitely provided that.
But what I found difficult was. Just the overwhelming guilt whenever I would have to, like, something would happen with Ethan and so I need to take the day off from work to be with him or take him to the hospital or something. And just the impact that has on everybody else. I think we all experience that when, when a vet calls out, now you've got 20 appointments that you have to try to spread around with everybody else or cancel and reschedule and it just causes a lot of chaos. so That was hard. and so I was like, I think, I think I probably need to look for a [00:27:00] different option and thinking to my military time, one of the things I enjoyed was the leadership aspect of it, felt like not, not all the time. We all aren't perfect in our leadership, but a lot of times I felt like I succeeded from that standpoint, and started looking for those types of opportunities, but was really restricted because I lived in Colorado Springs couldn't really move with Ethan. It's not the biggest town. So a lot of those opportunities weren't there. So I, I chose to do a master's at the time in organizational leadership to kind of enhance my resume, if you will. And also just my understanding, take some of that experience I learned. In leadership and have like a, add it to a foundational knowledge of leadership, to make myself more competitive for positions in the future. so I did that, completed a Master's in organizational leadership, but right around the same time I started it, an opportunity dropped to my lap with a rescue in town called the National Mill Dog Rescue, and decided to start as the [00:28:00] medical director there and it was amazing. It helped with that problem of, you know, we did a lot of, of medicine, like you said, surgeries and dentistry, but if I needed to take the day off. It wasn't this like end of the world scenario, like the dogs just went back to the kennel and we'd take care of 'em the next day or two days from then. which really helped to relieve a lot of stress. it also really helped me get a lot better at, you know, my surgeries and dentistry. 'cause I was doing it all day, every day. so it was a really cool job. Uh, they were super supportive of my situation. Like, uh, I still do some fundraiser things to help raise money for them because, I just. I don't know that I could have gotten through such a hard time as easily as I did without them. they were truly incredible and obviously their mission is great.
Like they rescue specifically from puppy mills all across the country. so I was there for four years. and eventually that just like heavy clinical load did take a toll. I always think back to. [00:29:00] Uh, when I started back after Ethan's passing, you know, I only took probably about a week, week and a half off because I just couldn't sit at home.
Um, it's just my personality. I needed to be doing something. and like the second day back, we had a patient crash under anesthesia and I was like finding myself doing CPR on that dog. and I, I still don't know that I've really. Address that, that scenario like, and dealt with it emotionally. it was just like so traumatizing to be doing that, like, so shortly after Ethan passed, and I definitely have that personality where I tend to shove things down and not, not deal with it.
And I feel like that's what I did at the time, just to be able to get through it. So just continuing to do medicine all day, every day. What was kind of wearing me down a bit and needed to look for something different. and so I moved on and now I'm doing other stuff.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. Uh, it sounds like Ivan, Zak. May have looped you into a few, uh, [00:30:00] shenanigans as I, not surprising of Ivan. So do you mind sharing a little bit about how you met Ivan and some of the things you helped him do?
Andrew Ciccolini: Yeah, two, two different, times where I kind of got looped in with Ivan. Uh, the first was actually while I was still at the National Mill Dog Rescue, and, was looking for other opportunities, came across Galaxy Vets, and just really connected with his ideas around what veterinary medicine should look like.
We were very much on a similar, plane with that. but there wasn't opportunity I needed for like a full-time job yet. and when the war broke out in Ukraine, he reached out to me and asked if I would help him start like a foundation to provide telehealth to pet owners in Ukraine. In response to the war. And so it was like a, a part-time thing. So I continued to work at Mill Dog Rescue and, worked with some of his people both in Ukraine and in different countries to stand this up. And we reached out to the veterinary [00:31:00] community across the entire world for volunteers to help do this. don't, I don't specifically remember the numbers. I think we probably had like 250, 260 different
Megan Sprinkle: Wow.
Andrew Ciccolini: volunteers across like, probably 12 or 13 different countries. so it was a really cool project, helped I, I don't even know, thousands of pet owners to the best of our ability. Uh, we kept it going for, say like a year and a half. eventually it was just. It was hard to maintain momentum and keep volunteers engaged. but I really think it proves a really valuable model for like emergency disaster response. because take a really bad earthquake or hurricane or whatever, it's gonna take some time for boots to be on the ground. Um, but people need help immediately and typically one of the first things up is internet. so you could stand up, uh, telehealth response in the initial wave of a disaster until all the resources are brought in. I think that's a sustainable model that, that you could do. It doesn't work well over six [00:32:00] months or a year, but it worked well for a few weeks.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. Which, like you said, that may be some of the most crucial time 'cause it's so hard to get people there that, and people are desperate and scared and dunno what. What's going on? and I mean, I'm just trying to think. I wouldn't even know where to begin. Did, did you work through military government?
How did you even start to reach out to people?
Andrew Ciccolini: I mean, thankfully, you know, Ivan being from Ukraine had a lot
Megan Sprinkle: Uh,
Andrew Ciccolini: there.
Megan Sprinkle: makes sense.
Andrew Ciccolini: and We were able to get connected with their Ministry of Health and just make sure we had permission to do this. And they were, they were totally like, yeah, go for it. it did help. There was a lot less, you know, regulations and restrictions. You know, like if a hurricane hit Florida, it'd be a lot more complicated to like, make sure everybody's legally allowed to provide assistance there. but for Ukraine, they were like, yeah, thumbs up. Go ahead. Like, whatever help you can provide, we appreciate. so it did make it easier. but, you know, each, each country will provide its own different [00:33:00] challenges, but, uh, with some persistence, there's a way and we didn't really have the funding to like, keep it going, but the intent would've been if, if we could stand it up as a disaster response to try to as many of those agreements in place in advance. Like, you can't wait for the disaster to hit, to try to figure out how you're allowed to do this in, Florida or. Whatever, pick a country, Mexico, like you need to try to set those things up in advance, um, so that you can get rolling right away. 'cause otherwise you're not gonna be reacting any faster than the boots on the ground.
Megan Sprinkle: That makes a, that's a really good point. Yeah. and I guess the other thing that Ivan, uh, started to get you involved in is Serenity Vet. And I actually heard you talk about it on a podcast episode not too too long ago. So where did that start and, and how did you get involved there?
Andrew Ciccolini: He just, reached out to me and asked me if I wanted to get involved in his new project, which [00:34:00] was Serenity Vet, which is a relief platform. I've certainly done a lot of relief work throughout my career, off and on, throughout the military and even since leaving. it is, you know, a career path for people.
Um. your podcast is really about like what all the different options there are as a veterinarian, right? And this is just one of those, a lot of people might just do it, do a few shifts here or there, maybe to make some extra income. Some people will do it for a short period of time as they're transitioning to figure out what they want to do. And some people just love it and like that's their career. And, They get a lot of joy out of that. And one of the nice things is you can make a higher salary doing that. Uh, ' cause it typically pays like more per hour. and so we kind of looked at the different platforms that were out there and just felt like we could do some things different and maybe offer a better solution for people. so we stood up Serenity Vet.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. So what are some of those things that you think are unique about Serenity Vet?[00:35:00]
Andrew Ciccolini: Yeah, I think, one of the things we added, and it can be a bit controversial, but we do have a. Production based bonus option, where a clinic can offer a relief shift with a flat rate, you'll still get a guaranteed, you know, minimum salary. but then at the end of the shift, they'll put in that financial information and you can potentially make more off of production if you had a really busy, productive shift. I know some people don't like production because they feel like it, influences them to act in a different way or it makes them feel bad and then like half the people, they like it. our stance was, we really felt like this could be beneficial, especially in like urgent care and emergency, where if you're doing relief and you're agreeing to a set rate, you know, you could. Really produce a lot for that hospital and miss out on a lot of income. and so to us it provides a balance to both the clinic in terms of risk and the veterinarian, where they should be compensated for their time. Right? It's not their fault that they go and work an emergency shift and no pets show [00:36:00] up. But then if they end up being really busy, they're compensated fairly. and it doesn't hurt the clinic because, you know, they, the money was made. so that's one of the things we have that's different. That kind of stands out.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, and, and it sounds like there's options. So again, for people that don't like that approach, they don't have to, that there's other, other ways of doing it, which again, it can be nice basically, you know, as you said, I. A relief vet there, there is a lot of flexibility with deciding how much do you wanna work, which areas do you wanna work.
Like there, there's a lot of things that can be good about that. There, there are also some pro uh, pe cons maybe. you're not with one clinic usually the whole time, so you may not build as many. You know, strong relationships, but you may, maybe you get relationships other places. Right? But again, we never know what each individual needs, especially in a certain moment of their, of their life.
[00:37:00] You know, they may have another challenge that's happening and, and that flexibility is really what? The support that they need that allows 'em to still bring home, uh, money for the family and still deal with other things that might be going on. the other thing that I, I think I remember hearing you talk a little bit about is this ability for a clinic to understand how much they can afford a contract veterinarian.
And I think that's a really unique project because to me, it just makes it. Feel like a clinic is more confident in doing this. And so just everybody there it is mindset thing a little bit, right?
Andrew Ciccolini: Yes.
Megan Sprinkle: you know that everybody's just, I feel really good about this because I know I can afford to do this.
So do you mind sharing a little bit more about that?
Andrew Ciccolini: Yeah. I'm glad you brought it up and you talk to clinics, and certainly we hear it and the feedback we get from clinics, like, oh, relief vets are so expensive, like, we're losing money on this. And uh, so our thought was, well, [00:38:00] we should make a feature to kind of show them that they, they can still maintain profits with using relief vets. so we made a profitability calculator where clinics basically just go in and put some fairly basic financial information that's pretty easy to look up. and the system will. Show them basically what they can afford to pay in a range and still maintain at least some profit. so generally it gives a range from like 20% to like 0% profit.
So, there's certainly situations where a clinic like just needs somebody and they, as long as they break even, and it's okay, and it'll give them that range and it shows up on every shift that they post. So it's not like they have to go. Back and look for it. As long as they put that financial information in there, when they go and post a shift, it'll show that range. Uh, and to us it does a couple things and it helps those clinics that maybe don't necessarily under understand their finances super well, know what they can afford, but even those clinics that know their finances really well, it's just convenient to have it right there in front of you so you don't have to keep going back and looking it up. I've definitely [00:39:00] heard from a few vets, they're like, oh, that's just encouraging clinics to like pay us less. And what we find is the opposite is clinics learn that they can actually afford to pay more and they're more comfortable paying the, the salaries that really vets are requesting because they see like, oh, I, I can actually afford this.
Like, yeah, I might not make quite as much profit as I would from a, a staff veterinarian, but I can still make some and, and therefore it's worth it.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, and sometimes you're in a situation where if you do not have someone working that shift, you will lose money. So there, there's that balance of, you know, so I, I think that's helpful, uh, to have those financial tools to, again, just make sure that everybody's winning. E everybody is comfortable and confident in supporting each other and, So I think that's really exciting. I think You know, there's a lot changing in the economy and I think what some people enjoyed might be changing, and that's all normal, like, but I still think there's opportunity for relief vets [00:40:00] and there's still a lot of opportunity for innovation, so that's exciting to, to hear that that's going on.
Andrew Ciccolini: And I think, we've certainly seen, like we've not been around very long and yet we've seen a shift in the market, where we really expected when we started, it'd be super easy to get clinics onboarded on the platform and post a lot of shifts. And we'd really have to be like chasing down veterinarians trying to find them. Uh, and it's been the total opposite. It's been a lot easier for us to find veterinarians and get them onboarded and clinics have been harder. and we're just seeing that shift where there's not as much need, there's not enough availability of days that need relief coverage. so it's getting a lot more competitive.
And so I think what we're gonna find is that relief vets that offer more value, that they can do more procedures beyond just seeing routine appointments. Whether that's surgeries, dentistry, emergency shifts or urgent care shifts are gonna be able to get more work, than those [00:41:00] that, that offer less services as we get more and more competitive. And so our platform provides the tool to connect those veterinarians that offer more and be compensated fairly.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, is there a way to be a relief vet and be able to highlight some of your unique skills? And then can the clinic have multiple options to choose from, uh, among the vets? How does that work?
Andrew Ciccolini: That's a really good, really good question. in terms of like how the clinic posts a shift so they can request whether they want surgery or dentistry. Uh, certainly they can put if it's urgency or, or urgent care. and so vets that apply if they say like. 'cause the surgery dentistry can be optional. If they click those off, it might actually decrease the compensation that the clinic is offering.
They can basically offer a bonus on that. Uh, and we certainly see clinics, they're, they're willing to pay more. If someone comes in and says, yes, I'll, I'll do surgeries for you today. Then in terms of the veterinarian's [00:42:00] profile, uh, we're actually working on revamping that right now to better be able to communicate what the capabilities are. so our hope is to add like a list of, you know, I can add in all the different procedures that I can do and kind of give it approximate timeframe of what it takes me so that the clinic can build a schedule that meets my capabilities. Uh, and this was really from my own experience in relief work of anytime I took on a release shift, I, I tended to take on ones that.
Offer surgery and dentistry. I'd, I'd get these calls and these texts for the week leading up, like, Hey, do you do this procedure? Like, how many can I schedule for you this day? Like, how long will this take you? And now we just wanna have that information there. to simplify the process. we're also thinking about adding a potential like video interview from the veterinarian. we find that if people c an kind of get a feel for you from a personality and culture fit, they're more likely to accept a shift, , because a lot of clinics are really protective of their culture. just because you don't fit that culture doesn't mean it's like a negative on you, but they [00:43:00] want someone that fits.
And so we feel like having a video profile would really help with that.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, that's really interesting and good for people to know. Uh, if you are interested in relief. Work is. This may sound scary at first, but to me, I also think about it. It's an opportunity to. Discover what you really enjoy doing the most and leaning into that, building up those skills, and then you can find those places that you can do more of what you like doing.
And, and so in a way, look at it in a positive sense. It, I think it's still a call to make sure that you're continuing to grow and to upskill your yourself in those. Areas of interest, but, yeah, very unique place that we are now. But yeah, it, it's kind of weird, like you said when you were leaving the military and it was a really good economy.
Um, you know, a couple years ago I used to say, I. I could walk down the street to just the first vet clinic that I come to and I would be hired on the spot. They wouldn't want me 'cause I'm a nutritionist and I wouldn't do what probably what they, they need me to [00:44:00] do, but they would hire me up in a, in a, in a heartbeat.
And now it is, it's, you know, we're kind of coming back down from that spike around the pandemic. so keeping up with those things, never assuming, learning. also knowing more about yourself too, I think that's putting all of that together is, I think, the best way to grow and develop a career that you enjoy doing so.
Andrew Ciccolini: Absolutely. I agree a hundred percent.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. And uh, it's also, I think anybody who's interested in dentals, I don't really hear that often. Somebody who's like, I love dentals, so good for you. I'm sure your, your skills are highly sought after. and I think, you know, coming back to what we were talking about with, um, you know.
Where you're, you're heading next, I know you're, you're still working on Serenity Vet, but that you are interested in, maybe learning more about grief and how that can also apply to the people of veterinary medicine. So do [00:45:00] you wanna share a little bit about kind of what you're currently working on and what you're interested to keep focusing on?
Andrew Ciccolini: I think for now it's mostly a self-exploration and, reading some articles and I have some. People that could mentor me in that space to try to better understand it. And my hope is to put together maybe like a CE talk that I could provide, uh, either at conferences or online, to share with others, what it grows into, that there is still kind of open at this time.
Megan Sprinkle: You never know when you're open to things, that's when things are able to land in your lap. So just stay away from Ivan. No, just kidding.
Andrew Ciccolini: I'm sure you've got another idea brewing somewhere.
Megan Sprinkle: Always does.
Andrew Ciccolini: Yeah.
Megan Sprinkle: well I have a couple of final questions for you. One is, anytime I see somebody with a very unique background, uh, I like to ask about your background. It looks like there's a bunch of metals back there. Do you mind sharing a little bit about what those are?
Andrew Ciccolini: Sure. I can't take credit for a single one [00:46:00] of them. this is, these are all my wife's medals. Um, she ran a bunch of RA races, tough mudders, half marathons, full marathons, mostly at, Disney World.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah.
Andrew Ciccolini: Uh, she lived in Florida for a long time. Very much a Disney family. so those are all hers. I have a few of my own.
she likes to do like the fun, fun races where she like, you know, walks and runs a little and like hangs out with Goofy and, you know, takes her time. And, and I'm like, no, we gotta be serious. Like, I'm running the race. I got a, I got a pr it. so. A little bit different medals for me. but I'm trying to co her into, like actually running one with me in August. Uh, she's not happy about it.
Megan Sprinkle: So, uh, do you have like a, an upcoming race or, or one that's really memorable that you could share?
Andrew Ciccolini: Um, my plan is to run. half marathon in August in Fort Collins. I don't even remember the name of the race. Uh, just picked a date so that I would, could put together a training [00:47:00] plan. memorable races for me. I ran both the Marine Corps full and half marathon while I was in Afghanistan.
Megan Sprinkle: Oh wow. I'm guessing the environment was a part of that challenge.
Andrew Ciccolini: Yes. And also just like being able to train you know, there's. I was fortunate I was on a bit larger base in Afghanistan, but like having a safe area to run, you know, that many miles. and then of course it's never like fully safe, right? Like anything could happen at any time. and I was in the desert area, so it was hot. Yeah,
Megan Sprinkle: That, that's what I was thinking was the heat.
Andrew Ciccolini: yeah.
Megan Sprinkle: Uh, and the last question I always love to end on is what is something you are really grateful for right now?
Andrew Ciccolini: Uh, I am grateful for the time I had with Ethan 'cause it just has made me a better person. to see happiness and joy through so many struggles. Just provides perspective [00:48:00] and, um, makes the challenges of life, uh, seem. Pretty insignificant most of the time. so just trying to carry on his legacy of, of happiness and strength.
Megan Sprinkle: I hope you enjoyed this fascinating veterinary story. We can make an impact in so many places. Check out the show notes for lots of resources. Please make sure you are subscribed on your podcast app. Subscribe on the YouTube channel and follow me on LinkedIn where I hang out the most. You can contact me on LinkedIn on the website at vetlifereimagined.com and brand new is that you can text me to send me a text message.
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