Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple O' Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and today we are going to be addressing a couple subjects all related to each other. Healing, trauma, leadership, the military, the civilian world, they all play roles within one another. I bring up military because we've talked a lot on the show about some of the great, uh, but mostly the bad, uh, leadership that we have experienced in the military.
Both myself, my shipmates, as well as guests on the show. However, it's not limited to just the military. While the military offers more opportunities for leadership, there are plenty of roles available in the civilian world. Especially if you are a person who is thinking of starting your own business.
Whether that starts with just one person or ends up with 50, you're going to be in charge of people and you're going to be a leader. Being a leader requires a lot, including the healing of your personal life. While we try to separate work and our lives at home, the traumas, the pains, the wounds from our personal life can seep over into the working world, no matter what role of leadership you play.
So it's very important to get that healed. Additionally, being a leader comes with complex situations and stress that can Make those wounds worse. So it's important to be healing on both sides. And today we have a mental health expert here to help you with that Ms. Denise G. Lee. It's great to have you here to talk about leadership.
Could you please introduce yourself for us? Thanks, Mr. Whiskey for having me here and thank you everyone who's taking time out of their busy schedule I know you've got a bunch of other places you could be or listening. So i'm so grateful that you're here my experience is Technically, I'm a healing and leadership coach.
Which is a face fancy way of saying that I'm a life coach that spent a lot of time reading trauma and addiction books and as well as spending hundreds of hours speaking with people who have survived anything from addictions, addictions to alcohol, substance, substances, people who have experienced post traumatic stress disorder, dissociations, just to name a few to really help people.
Specifically, the business community that are facing unique challenges understanding themselves and understanding the world around them. I've been doing this for over 10 years and I can't say that I've seen it all because every day I talk to a new human being, I hear a different story of life that makes me re question even what I have learned.
Yeah, for sure. And what got you into this line of work? Where does your life story start? Well, I'm also someone who has served Uncle Sam, but as a civilian, I worked for the federal government for many years and I experienced the classic burnout where I was doing a whole lot of things and under the command and control model.
listening, obeying orders, and feeling more disconnected from myself and the people around me. It wasn't until I had a situation where I was hospitalized due to stress and my husband implored me at the time and said, you're going to, you're going to die at this job. You need to leave and reevaluate. And so I did.
I transitioned originally from Being a product manager to doing medical exercise training and business coaching then to where the work that I am doing now. Wow. Yeah. So, I mean, that definitely is a reflection on leadership to some degree when you have employees who are so burnt out that it's resulting in physical ailments.
So can you talk about how that kind of changed your life and where you shifted from there? I'll never forget the moment I was in the hospital and I said to the, the nurse, attending nurse at the time, I said, I think this job is going to kill me. I think my husband's right. And the nurse looked at me and she said, how are you gonna pay for your insurance then?
And I thought to myself, it's the stress of trying to perform that's making me dependent on doing things that are actually robbing me of my health and vitality. A lot of people, especially those who come from. military government background, they've been told in order to get security, you have to betray some part of your sleep, your, sometimes your ethics in order to get along, to get your recommendations to go up further up the food chain and never understand the full cost.
For me, the idea of making that connection between, okay, What was taught and what I need to heal are not in alignment. That was the true breaking point for me. Yeah, for sure. The response, you know, how are you going to pay for the insurance? Well, I need the insurance because of the stress of the job. It's kind of this, uh, trap this cycle.
And I agree with you that a lot of times we are, you know, constantly told what about this, how are you going to do that? How are you going to do that? And those things typically monetary values are always so more valued than our own health, which is the one thing we can't get back and the number one thing that we have to fight for.
And so now you've been working with a lot of business leaders and what are some of the main problems you've seen? I know you mentioned every person is unique. You're seeing new stuff every day, but there definitely have to be some overlaps there. So what are some of the common things that anyone listening right now who.
Is a business owner, whether small or large, and maybe there's someone who's thinking about starting a business, what are some common mistakes and, you know, symptoms they should look out for? That's a great question, Mr. Weske. And I think about even my experience and all the business ventures and even in my life, um, in the federal government.
And one of the things that I've seen specifically around aspiring business owners and current business owners is this desire to please above all. There's a reason what draws people into the military, draws people into entrepreneurship is this desire to serve. And there's nothing wrong with service.
Right. That's the backbone of how we've built this country. How we've been able to unite as a people is the idea that I can lend my back my shirt to clothe your back. But at the same time, by doing that, that, that, that self, the selflessness is a good thing, but it can come to the point where we're taken advantage of by clients.
By perspective, uh, clients by everyone around us because they know we'll go above and beyond the sense of not knowing when's enough. I remember I was talking with a mentor of mine and he, he came, he was a Marine and he said, there was no such thing as enough, there was no such thing as enough. And I can't imagine how many times he heard that.
Right. From his commanding officer. And this meant that you don't stop that mindset just because you're in a tour of duty is, and like, it doesn't stop there. So that mindset, if I have to keep going, I have to keep serving. I have to keep pushing through. And for a lot of entrepreneurs, people from a military background, there's no such thing as limits.
It's like, we've been told the limits are the only things that we tell ourselves. Right. But there's limits to our physical bodies, there's limits to how much, I mean, we know that we physically cannot go beyond four hours of consecutive days without sleep. There's limits to the amount of time that we can go without food or drink, but we try to push ourselves because we don't want to be labeled as average.
Yeah, I mean, to word it. You're saying setting boundaries with yourself and with others is so important when it comes to business and leadership because One, you need to set those boundaries so people aren't pushing so much work onto you as well as with yourself. So you're not pushing yourself beyond your limits, uh, because the long story of it, you know, short term you might be able to get a lot done, but long term, uh, as your health declines, your productivity declines, and then you're gonna, uh, Try to take on even more work to catch up and then becomes this vicious cycle of just down spiraling You're absolutely right.
You're absolutely right. I like to add a little caveat We always hear people say set boundaries But if you come from an extreme situation where everything was shifting On around underneath you you don't know what a boundary is You had to turn and pivot all the time. So I know someone's listening and like I don't even know what a boundary is Yeah, well I think it's important to implement a schedule and hours because especially with entrepreneurs and people who run their own business when you're not working for another employer, oftentimes you're in charge of your own hours and a lot of people who are ambitious, especially on the younger side, try to get everything done.
They try to make 25 8 a thing. You know how they try to work, work, work. And like you said, little sleep, little, you know, amount of time they're taking for breaks. They're not eating and drinking as much. They're neglecting their health and they're just trying to do project after project. And so part of those boundaries would include just setting hours and saying, Hey, I'm going to work from this time to this time.
I know, I know I'm one of those people where when I started my own company, it was, uh, weekends went away. Every day was a work day, uh, which is ironic because you think, you know, especially as a kid, you're like, When you're working a job, especially blue collar industry, you're like, I can't wait for the weekend.
I can't wait to, I wish I could make my own hours and have all the time off. And then when I got put in charge of that, I was like, I want to work always, you know? And sometimes it's because You have to you need to get stuff done and other times you just end up getting addicted to work I know I recently just starting November I created a weekend for myself because I was like I'm working every single day except for sometimes on Saturdays I'll go drink whiskey, but you know, I was like I need a I need to set some boundaries here But it's it's addictive work I mean workaholic is a term and it's I think like any addiction you don't see it coming it sneaks up on you but it's Compared to other addictions, it seems the least destructive because you're being productive, uh, in terms of your work, in terms of money.
Uh, all while, you know, your health is declining in more subtle ways than drinking or drug use may, you know, show symptoms. Uh, like we said, that sleeplessness, that, uh, neglect of nutrition, of hydration, of exercise, uh, of maybe getting too sedentary a lifestyle or getting too active a lifestyle, always running around.
And so, what is some more advice that you give to people, you know, your clients that work with you? I mean, what, what exactly do you do with them? And, you know, if your listeners are interested in working with you, what exactly do you do? Well, first of all, kudos to you, Mr. Whiskey for taking the weekends off and making declaration that you're too young to get set up for cancer at a younger age.
And actually speaking about cancer earlier this year, Susan Wojcicki, she was the things. Chief technology or CEO of, uh, uh, YouTube, she, she retired from that. She died of cancer. Uh, this year, I think about Steve Jobs died of pancreatic cancer. They didn't disclose what type of, um, uh, cancer Susan Wojcicki had, but there's this unspoken conversation that's happening around the C suite office about people taking their time off to go see their oncologist.
When the cancer is only supposed to be 1 5th of Americans, almost 1 3rd of people within high pressure, stressful environments are receiving some type of cancer treatment. That's not by accident. So I want people who are listening to understand that let's redefine success and the agent stands in an age and time where Gen Z.
Is consuming almost four hours of social media day. You're being hypnotized into the belief that in order to get ahead, you have to create as much content, not realizing that people who are ahead have a team behind them, sparing on content while you're asleep. So let's redefine what it is to be successful, because if you're trying to race against a bot, you're always going to lose.
And the people that have been having those success have been decades in the making, you just now found about that. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. I actually had a guest on the other day. Can't remember if it was Alzheimer's or dementia, uh, but she said that, uh, lack of sleep and, and, you know, barely sleeping, uh, can lead to that.
And, uh, that's one of many things that, you know, are, are, could result from sleeplessness, which can be a result from. Being a workaholic from you know Staying up every night because I know i've been there before too where i'm like, all right This is my last time staying up to 2 a. m Tomorrow night we're going to bed early.
We'll we'll work the next day and then every night i'm like, oh, it's 2 a. m I've been working and you know, it's easy to get enthralled in it, especially with technology Like you said is uh there pretty much 24 7. I mean You you know, it doesn't need anything right as long as it's plugged into a power source.
You can keep working keep working And, uh, with access to people all around the globe, you can be working with people in other countries or time zones when it's supposed to be your time to sleep. So it definitely does get into that kind of trap where you are just always working. And, yeah, I know. I mean, what are some symptoms we should look for if maybe we're experiencing burnout and don't realize it or we're quickly approaching that point?
Burnout looks differently for everybody. Yeah, definitely. I knew for me burnout was resulting in me having short term memory loss, not being able to recall simple things like where did I put my keys, where did I eat, food, when was the last time I used the bathroom. You know, that's maybe on the extreme end for some people.
I'm thinking about picturing you in your room at 2am and I wonder when's the last time you took a sip of water. I'm wondering when's the last time you walked around. I'm wondering if you're feeling aches in your, in your, in your lower back. I'm wondering if you're feeling tingliness in your toes. Every body has different sites.
Somatic, when I say somatic, I'm physical symptoms. But I will say above all, you know that you're reaching burnout. When you have literally made an idol of your work. And so for those of you, those who are listening who don't understand what I mean, idol, they don't come from a religious, spiritual background.
I'm saying that you're apprising this particular idea, thought, or goal above everything at the expense of your health, your family, your friends, or even your values. Right. And like you said, burnout looks different for everyone. And another thing is that there are factors from a personal life that play into burnout, including a lot of emotional turmoil.
So how does emotional healing play into burnout? That's really a great question. And I think we, I need to back up and explain a little bit about our childhood. I'm going to go a little Freud, a little,
Psychoanalytic on this because I really want people to understand that we don't become workaholics, which is a true addiction, by the way, at a vacuum. Usually it was modeled to us from a most likely a parent or a model who we thought was exceptional or who we would try to gain their favor or acknowledging or appreciation.
And we. Always try to push the boundaries to be within ourselves in order to get that sense of praise. I know for me, I'm thinking about a couple of people in my mind that I always felt that I never could do good enough to earn their praise. Not understanding that they had a good 20 years ahead of me experience and no wonder they weren't impressed.
They had other people that were impressing them. So it was a kind of self defeating kind of thing. So to answer your question about what, like, what does it look like? It looks like we're spending our time worshiping a person, idea, or some type of goal that we have never really asked ourselves the true cost of our endeavors.
Right. Right. Now, I, I get that. I mean, for like me, I know personally. Nothing to do with my parents, but I know like in the industry I work in, I go to a lot of conferences and events with people who have been doing this for 10, years, longer than I. And I want to catch up with them. Actually, I just got back from the podcasters cruise and it was a great time.
And one of the things we talked about is, you know, there's the different tables in the industry. There's, you know, the big kids table and the kids table to split into two, uh, easy definitions. And a lot of us, when we start out, you know, you start out at the kids table and you want to be at the big kids table, uh, and, uh, you know, one way you can do that is by.
Condensing time by, uh, you know, giving up sleep, by neglecting your health, and by overworking. Uh, and there is a way to, there's a balance, right? I mean, with everything, there's a balance where you can shorten the time it takes to become successful. Uh, but, there's a balance to, well, how much and what are you gonna give up in order to make up for that time, right?
I mean, time is the most valuable thing that any of us have. And So with that being said, talking about time, emotional healing and leadership and all of that, what specific techniques do you use to help business leaders transform challenges into growth opportunities? Burnout is one of those challenges, but there are plenty of other challenges, including just workplace disasters, unexpected financial changes, all kinds of stuff that happens when you're a leader or part of a business.
Mark Twain. the author, poet, comedian, you know, rest in peace, wherever his soul is. One says, I'm not afraid of the person who has, who's competing the first. The person that's in front of me, I'm afraid of the person who's the unknown, the one who comes up and shows a skill that is completely unexpected to what I was expecting.
And I mean, I'm saying that to begin with, by explaining that the reason why all of us. are feeling like we're behind is we're trying to model what's in front. And I'm saying, let's go differently. Let's go zigzag in a completely different direction from what we think is the most industry practice, because I don't have to forecast my upcoming impending burnout.
If I'm trying to replicate what's already been done, but maybe I can do something that's easier and simpler that leans into who I really am, my natural skills. So. For people who want to achieve, for people who want to succeed, stop trying to replicate what you think is successful and start looking into what you do that's easy and simple.
I agree with that. I think there's a lot of us who are trying to copy how someone else is doing and that may be successful for them, but you're a different person. Your business is different. It may be similar, but what you can do and what they can do are different things. So I agree, and because of that, you may try someone else's, you know, technique, business program, whatever it may be, and it might leave you burnt out, whereas, you know, they're at a different level.
So I think whatever you find the most success in is what you should follow. Now, Ms. Lee, for anyone who wants to work with you, I know I'm going to have your website in the description below. What can they find there, and why should they check it out? Well, you know, for me, I put my money to where my mouth is and it's not just a website where you can go and book an appointment, which you can, obviously, if you're interested in working with me, I have over a hundred articles on burnout, post traumatic stress disorder, resiliency, understanding.
You the impact childhood have on you as an adult. I have a plethora of resources to get people to really think about how they're acting now and how the past has impacted them. I also have a place where they can learn more in depth about who I am, my background, my own Personal stories with, um, stressful situations.
And they can also learn more about some of my offerings at various levels of engagement. So I really wanted to make it a place, a safe place where people can really learn, grow, and heal. And not just a place where they can sign up for stuff. Right, right. And another thing I want to address before we sign off here is you have a podcast.
Could you please tell us about that and who should listen to that? Yeah, thank you. So I love your show, obviously, Mr. Rusty, that's why we're here. We're talking, but I also have my own show, the introverted entrepreneur podcast, despite what this says, introverted entrepreneur, it's really a place for anyone who's interested in learning themselves and learning the world around them in a deep, and I.
very thoughtful manner. I bring my little humor, wackiness. I also invite very thoughtful and thought provoking guests, therapists, psychologists, practitioners, people from all walks of life in order to really help us as well as the people that we interact with. Stop asking the questions that he can find easily on Google, right?
So trying to get them thinking about the more serious, more complex question is that can help further their lives. Absolutely. At least that's my ambition is right. Awesome. Well, Ms. Lee, before we sign off here, what would you leave our listeners with? Especially specifically as we've been talking about those, whether they're entrepreneurs about to start their own business already have one, or if they're a leader in a pre established business, what would you leave them with?
I would say now is the time to redefine what success is. means to you. You've been told that on entrepreneur. com or your conventions or wherever you've been given these takeaways. And the biggest takeaway is what's coming inside of you, what's motivating you, what's passionate, what's draining you. And instead of ignoring it and denying it, I want you to investigate why.
Why does it make you happy? Why does it make you sad? Why are you delaying certain things? And why are you avoiding certain things? And once you start to really understand those questions, then you can start moving into the direction of where you were designed, God designed to be come. Amen to that. All right.
Well, ladies and gentlemen, like I said, uh, Ms. Denise G. Lee, her website will be in a description below where you can find her podcast and a slew of information. Be sure to check that out and just remember to take a step back and evaluate your life and look at. You know, where are you success wise? Where are you health wise?
And what is the relationship between those two looking like? And do you need to move in one direction or the other? But Ms. Lee, thank you so much for coming on the show. I appreciate having you as a guest. Thank you for having me.
