Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: [00:00:00] Nobody that's successful has ever done it on their own.
Megan Sprinkle: Welcome to Vet Life Reimagined, the podcast that explores the twist turns and transformations that make up our veterinary journeys. I'm your host, Dr. Megan Sprinkle, and today's conversation might just change how you approach your biggest anxiety inducing challenges. Why do some veterinarians struggle with high stakes exams like the NAVLE, even on their second or third attempt, despite knowing the material inside and out? Why does the fight or flight response make even the most brilliant minds go blank at critical moments?
Our guest today brings a fascinating inside outsider perspective to these questions. Ryan Smith is one of the veterinary profession's most impactful mental performance coaches. After years of training, high achieving executives and elite athletes to perform under pressure, Ryan now applies these same techniques to help veterinary professionals overcome their biggest mental hurdles from test anxiety to practice transitions.
In this [00:01:00] episode, you'll discover why your body's threat response might be sabotaging your performance. The surprising statistic about NAVLE pass rates for retakers, it is not what you'd expect. How to build your personal five types of people support network for professional growth and practical strategies to manage major career transitions like selling your practice.
If Ryan's name sounds familiar, his partner, Dr. Jennifer Quamman, was a previous guest on our show. If you haven't heard that episode yet, I highly recommend going back to listen to her insights as well as they provide a wonderful compliment to today's conversation. So whether you're studying for boards, navigating a career transition, or simply looking for ways to perform better under pressure, this episode offers valuable tools from someone who understands both the athletes and the veterinarian's mind.
Let's get to the conversation with Ryan Smith.
, I'm curious [00:02:00] about when you look back on your, your younger self,
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Mm-hmm.
Megan Sprinkle: there any things like that you can share that kind of maybe contribute to who you started to become and maybe some interests that you were starting to develop?
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Yeah, I can say like, I absolutely had like no idea I was gonna be anywhere near Vet met. I did grow up in the horse business, so we
Megan Sprinkle: Okay.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: 25 horses. So, you know, there was veterinarians on the, uh, on the farm all the time doing stuff. And you know, of course we, as your typical horse owners, you do most of the work yourself.
And then it's only when you, uh, really have things that are above your head that you have to go to the veterinarian. 'cause you try to, you know, kinda like, watch the budget on those kinds of things because, you know, horses are not cheap to keep, and when you have as many as we did, that's, uh, one of the things, so I really never like was the, oh my gosh, I wanna be in veterinary medicine.
It really just came when, uh, my partner, Dr. Jennifer Quammen and I had a conversation on the way back from AVMA headquarters about what [00:03:00] is her career gonna look like? What am I doing? I'm looking at some career changes and she basically said, why don't we take what you do and apply to my profession? And that's how I entered into the veterinary world, right?
I called myself in inside outsider because I'm an outsider, because I'm not a veterinarian, but I'm an insider because I am so connected and see so much that I get a different perspective on it.
Megan Sprinkle: And which is another reason why I'm very excited to have you on so you can share that unique perspective because sometimes you need one step back to be able to see the whole situation. So I know that when you were going through college and starting to develop your own career, you were starting to get into exercise and human performance.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Mm-hmm.
Megan Sprinkle: did you kind of discover that that was something you were interested in and wanted to potentially make a career out of it when you were getting into college?
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Yeah, so Again, not one of those things I ever grew up, I was not like a big sports person growing up. And so I actually started, [00:04:00] undergraduate in computer science and was looking at computer science and maybe engineering, and then I took this class actually, uh, the kind of impetus was I lost three grandparents to three different types of cancers in six and a half months when I was in my, sophomore into junior year of college. And it really devastated me from emotionally from that it was like. Almost dropped outta college. Almost like a lot of things that went there. And then I took a weight training class, which the instructor was, uh, she was amazing as far as the weight training class. And then that led into me switching careers or switching majors into exercise science with a minor in business and starting to work at a health club and doing all kinds of things.
And that led into 30 plus years of coaching along the way. So I typically don't follow your traditional path of what most people do.
Megan Sprinkle: That's fine. I have many of those on this podcast too, [00:05:00] and I think it's already starting to show that the people that we are around can make a big impact on our direction and, and how we see things. So that's, that's kind of neat that you, um, not all, well it's not neat that you had that terrible, uh, life experience, but that, you know, your teachers around you who are really good teachers highlighted different possibilities for you that kind of pulled out some of the things that you were passionate about and moving forward with that.
And so I also know that while you were working into exercise and human performance and personal training. You also got an, an interest in finance there a little bit, so sounds like you were getting lots of different interests. So how did finance kind of come in and you have a little stop off there and, uh, and then get back on more of the exercise in human performance.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Uh, another one of those weird journeys. So I grew up with entrepreneurial parents, so they were teachers and then they left teaching and opened their own business and they [00:06:00] owned a, art gallery and custom framing for years. So it was like always around entrepreneurial and other business owners. And then of course there was the time in the kind of that mid to late nineties when Robert Kiyosaki and the Rich Dad, poor Dad and all of those great entrepreneurial books were out there and had read that. And one of the things that I realized reading that was that I had no idea how the flow of money works or how. building for retirement, savings plans, finances, business works, all of those kinds of things. No idea how the markets work. So, uh, I said, all right, well, I was married, with a child, uh, that was at like freshly born at the time, and I'm like, I have no idea, how to plan for what's coming. So the easiest thing to do was then I'm gonna work in the market.
So I, in 2000, I went and became a stockbroker. I was a licensed stockbroker for, uh, one of the bigger companies. And I [00:07:00] learned about trading stocks, learned about options, became a registered options principle, did money movement and did all kinds of things. Did money movement behind the scenes for, uh, mutual funds and some different things.
So I did a lot of really, really cool stuff. Ended up being, working with really high net worth individuals, uh, at a local branch office and did cool things. So which then said, okay, I've learned this, and now it's time to go back to what I do and apply what I've learned versus I'm not staying here for the rest of the of my life.
Megan Sprinkle: I admit that I had one of those moments too, after getting married and sitting. I was on the my back porch. I still remember the moment and just like all of this like life hit me and I realized , I guess I better learn these things and, and not just pretend like it doesn't exist. So I did not become a stockbroker, but I did lean in a little bit and learn a little bit more. So it wasn't quite as scary as it had been before. and so you said you [00:08:00] were working with high net worth people, and so is that kind of how you combined some of the, personal training with some of these like big people who wanted to do triathlons and, and stuff like that?
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: It was, so I as a, from that human performance standpoint and looking at, how do I train people? How do you train people more efficiently? Right? Because it's like, how do you make things more effective and more efficient? Taking those people and like, well, if I'm gonna be, like, most personal trainers deal with people that are like on an hourly basis, they're in a club doing things like that.
Like, well, that's not my, it's not my jam. Like I know these people and I have a relationship with them. So how do we take that and build it into, obviously if I want to work with somebody as a. As a trainer, uh, and a coach, I want somebody who can afford to pay me what I want to earn, right? So that's where you start looking for the market of the people.
And that's one kinda led me into that. So yeah, I started looking at them going, [00:09:00] okay, what do they wanna do? Many of 'em wanted to train to do Ironman. They wanted to run the Boston Marathon, they wanted to qualify and run it. What did they want to do? And they were the ones that could afford to pay me what I wanna make on a, hourly slash, you know, contractual basis. Most of them have already very, very busy lives and, you know, they're gonna add another 20 or 30 hours of training for an Iron Man and they don't want to get divorced and they don't wanna like lose their family. And they, and they're like, well, how do I do. What would be 30 hours of training?
How do we do it in six or seven hours? What can we do efficiently from that standpoint?
Megan Sprinkle: it seems like efficiency has been a buzzword in the veterinary industry for a while too. So I mean, we've kind of teased that you, you're eventually getting to the veterinary industry and I, I'm curious, do you see any similarities to. executives, people that only have this amount of time, [00:10:00] maybe, with some of the stereotypes that you, you've seen on the veterinary side.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Uh, I think you've already hit on a lot of it there. Yes. Right? Because it's to become a veterinarian, right. You typically have to be a driven person, right? Because it's not the easiest industry to get into. It's not the easiest thing to get into vet school, to make it through vet school, to go on and lead a. A great career as a veterinarian. you know, and again, don't wanna just put this on veterinarians, I think, I think it applies to anybody in the veterinary profession. But again, to go through the process to become a doctor is not a light decision to be made. So you have a busy life, things are going on, you've got a lot going on.
You take your career on many times as your identity. And what do I do from there? How do I take care of myself? And I've also found that many times people that are really. good at what they do, whether it be a veterinarian or executive. They also go, well, if I'm smart enough to do this, then [00:11:00] I'm also smart enough to do that. And when they do that, then they realize that they don't have the education, they don't have the the systems in place to do this other thing, even though they were experts at one thing. So they need somebody to come in and do that. So that was kind of my. Foray into the veterinary world was seeing how much veterinarians actually looked like many of the athletes that I coached.
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah. actually we did an episode with Dr. Jwa and your wife and. One of the things that I saw someone comment about was that they really related to that analogy of the endurance athlete when it came to being in the veterinary industry. So I thought that was good to kinda bring back out again. And I'm curious, you, you were mentioning that you had a, a child when you were, looking at the financial things too.
When did you meet Jen? Was she done with vet school before, during, like how, how did that align?
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Yeah, that it was actually years after [00:12:00] that. So that's, this was like nine. My son was born in 99. I entered the financial world in 2000. Jen and I met in 2013, so I was divorced and um, it kind of led into, she was working out at a gym, that I did some training for, and she took a running clinic class that I had, and that was just, that kind of built a friendship really.
The, uh, if you know, Jen, the, this funny story that she will, she will debate but then agree with is I was at the gym one day taking care of it for my friend and she walked in, she says, uh, who are you and what are you doing in my gym? And right. And That was my first introduction to her.
'cause she's not one to be, um, timid about, introducing herself to people. And that kind of. First developed into our friendship and, then ultimately developed into a relationship down the road. So, yeah, and then it led into, the, Hey, why don't we [00:13:00] do what you do and apply to my profession?
And that was in 2014 when, veterinary coaching was born.
Megan Sprinkle: Okay, so you, you had a kind of a, a quick deep dive into veterinary medicine at that point. okay, so yes. also because this is gonna be part of our conversation too, is not only were you helping people train. In a physical capacity. Right. These are, these are pretty intense things, especially if you're trying to be quite efficient in that work.
But you also started getting interested in more of the, like the mental health aspect of things too, or, or maybe not necessarily just mental health, but like the mentation
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Right.
Megan Sprinkle: this as well. Mental performance, yes. So do you mind sharing a little bit about how you had to make that click too?
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Sure. Uh, so taking that transition and working with people that were, busy and things are like, oh, I see people doing 30 hours a [00:14:00] week of training. And it's like, how do we make it more efficient? And then kind of working through the mental aspect of shifting of going, I don't have to train for 30 hours a week.
There are ways of doing this in 6, 8, 10 hours a week. That was a shift. But then dealing with people from injury standpoint, uh, and coming back from injuries, uh, when people are training a lot, they kind of move into it a lot of times. There's obviously injuries that are involved. And then for myself, I was in the midst of training for an Ironman, had a. It was a super easy inguinal hernia repair in the middle of training, and with that had obviously antibiotics and antibiotics killed off my gut biome, which led into chronic pain and all kinds of things like physically I was there, but I was dealing with pain from the aftermath of the surgery, which then trying to come back and like go, okay, well how do I overcome this? Or if I can't, how do I shift my own perspective and what do I do from that? Um, and [00:15:00] just until even recently, like I hadn't been able to run for, 11 or 12 years, it was painful to run. And it's like I'm starting to build back into that now. And just again, just very short runs doing things. So dealing with that chronic pain for a long time was kind of, how do I shift it? How do I overcome it? How do I like, figure out what I wanna do? So that led into, NLP, which is neurolinguistic program, which goes back to the seventies by Doctors Bandler and Griner, and then led into hypnosis and led into, all other kinds of aspects. I'm actually a certified hypnotist as well.
So there's like all kinds of things that dealt with from the aspect of the mental performance and how, again, how do you, I don't wanna call it hack that, 'cause that's such a buzz word anymore, but like how do I shift things? How do I learn and really change it and make it a permanent shift in my psyche?
Megan Sprinkle: There's a lot to be said of. The way that we choose to perceive something.[00:16:00]
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Mm-hmm.
Megan Sprinkle: Uh, and I remember you, you told me that story too when I asked if you've ever had a personal story where you also had to kind of struggle with a unexpected change that maybe impacted even your personal identity, and that was the story you shared.
because the other thing about. A lot of people in veterinary medicine, I will raise my hand to this, is that we try to plan things out and so again, we get on this, I go to college, I do this to get into a vet school and then I'm going to do this. And so every, there's like this.
Very long path 'cause of how long the schooling takes and when something comes up that was not in our plan, that can impact us greatly because we, we've been so set on this is who I am, this is what I'm going to do. And when we got on our first call, the, the stat that you said that now that [00:17:00] you, are working with the veterinary, professionals, that 80% of your coaching is, is now new graduates who have not passed the nli.
And again, it's that unexpected thing that was not part of the plan I was supposed to pass. So I can, keep going forward. uh, I'll take us one step back 'cause that's, I'll let, that's where we're going. But when you said you were in the car, that had personally happened to you, right?
Like you were. Something unexpected happened. Um, you were trying to understand what's next for me, like what, where do I wanna go? And you're on a long car ride coming back from an AVMA, conference or convention. And you and, and Jen are talking about both of you are probably, or I think we're kind of wondering what is kind of the next thing for us and what was that conversation like and what was going through your mind when you started thinking about, can I do this with veterinary professionals?
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Right. yeah, that was a, that was an interesting 'cause it was Jen's [00:18:00] first meeting. , on the Council of Veterinary Services at A VMA headquarters up in Schaumburg. Uh, so we were up there you know, she was meeting the new members of the council and doing all of the, you know, like the networking things.
And I got to go to the dinners and, you know, meet like AVMA staffers. And then we were on the way back and she was at a point, she was medical director of a, of a clinic and that she had been the technician at beforehand, and so she had come outta school and quickly moved into the medical director.
Again, you're now as the medical director, here you are with the owners. You're telling the owners how to do charts and all kinds of things like that. Right. Then she's like, but I don't know what I wanna do. What's my next step is, are I, am I gonna do sports medicine? Am I looking at, you know, an east meets west philosophy?
I don't know what I'm gonna do. and I'm like, well, I'm still dealing with this injury. And I'm like, I don't, again, this executive , coaching thing works and do I take it more the mental thing? She's like, well, that was the thing was like, why [00:19:00] don't we take what you do and apply it to my profession because we really need it.
And this was really before the whole. wellness thing came up in veterinary medicine, right? This was before A VMA was doing a lot. This was before everybody was talking. So we started doing some talks at A VMA conferences on wellness and what does the mental performance look like and things like that, which then obviously a lot of people were dealing more with the, depression and the suicide, and we're like, no, how do we, instead of talking about that, how do we talk about it?
How do we get better? How do we become. If we move the entire industry forward, the people that are struggling will also move with it, versus if we're only focused on the one, right? that's the only thing that we can see. Whereas if we can go like, no, everybody moves, everybody gets better. And that was where we kinda started speaking and doing a lot of those things, and then ultimately transition into more of the, the coaching aspect of it.
So. initial was [00:20:00] speaking and talking and doing how do we help everybody and doing some one-on-one stuff. Now it's almost, all one-on-one and small group coaching.
Megan Sprinkle: Uh, well thank you for bringing that back up 'cause I think that's an important point is that when you started this, this was not like where you have wellbeing talks all the time, which we have whole tracks now at conferences. This was before where, I mean, people still remember when it was a little more taboo to talk about some of these things.
Again, you just kind of keep your head down and keep pushing forward, um, suck it up, uh, buttercup kind of thing. So. Uh, you know, as you were starting to have these conversations, you know, you talked a little bit about it, but how was it received and how have you watched this change? Uh, and any comments on maybe that change in maybe potential ways?
[00:21:00] You, again, I think you were kind of hinting at it a little bit 'cause unfortunately I think it still kind of got stuck on the focusing on the negative, but what, what were you seeing?
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Right. So, um, yeah, so the early days of the whole wellbeing and wellness and, you know, veterinarians struggling. I think the biggest challenge there was I saw. As we alluded to earlier, I'm smart enough to be a veterinarian, so I'm smart enough to do the other things. And I saw the entire industry from A VMA to all the other organizations that were there that were going, well, we are going to solve our own problem ourselves.
So instead of like thinking and looking at bringing in, how do you bring in and mental health professionals, how do you, these are again, the early days. Now we do have mental health professionals that are in there, but we weren't seeing a lot of them. How do I bring in wellness people, people that can actually help with the mental aspect of it, and again, nutrition and exercise and stress management and all of those portions of it. it was, no, we're [00:22:00] gonna solve this ourself. And as that, that inside outsider, I'm standing over here like, no, there's, there are people that know how to do this to really help you move forward. And they're like, no, we've got this. I think that's why it struggled at the beginning. then they're trying to find their footing of how do we, how do we now find a way to move this forward?
So I think ultimately they've kinda landed in a better place. Obviously things are not. Great yet, but, I think they're in a better place and I still think there's some work to do, but, um, I've resided to the fact that that's not my place. got, I've got, I have enough people and enough things that are going on within the industry and within our people and enough people that request our help, that I can help those people and I can't stear the Titanic, right? Because the Titanic is not floating anymore. That's.
Megan Sprinkle: [00:23:00] No, no, but Dr. Jen is gonna go and, and work on the, the Titanic aspect of things. So, no, but it's, it is a good point, right? 'cause there's, there's so many elements of that. There's this broader systemic, professional level of things. And there's also the individual human being. and I definitely do not want the individual human being to get lost in all of it.
Um, because even though we can talk about broad categories and, and trends and things, not every, nobody has the exact same story. just like some people pass the NAVLE and some people don't the first time, But then the person who did is gonna have another challenge later on.
Right? It, it's, we all have our challenges. They're just, they're different.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Mm-hmm.
Megan Sprinkle: think that level of individual care is also really important as well. So we can't always assume that if we go to one conference, talk about wellbeing, we're good to go because it may not fully address your personal level of, of [00:24:00] where you need to be.
so I, I think we need. People kind of on all, all sides of things to kind of move things in the right direction. So, when you were first getting those one-on-one, conversations, how were people finding you? what was kind of the focus then, and then how have you now come to the, this statistic that I, I, I brought up around, you know, specifically not passing a very, important test to get through the veterinary process.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Yeah, so the initial like business development was, we were, again speaking a lot, so we were speaking at conferences, you know, so we would speak at the, veterinary leadership conference at a VMA, other conferences states doing a lot of different things. Also, speaking with SAVMA, we were on the, uh, SAVMA speaking, bureau, so.
Also for, VBMA. So we had like, a lot of things that we were really speaking, so that early days we were actually talking more to students [00:25:00] and instructors. So we had a lot of the schools that would bring us in to speak versus just being at conferences. And then that led into obviously leads into people, right?
You, if you've got hundred people in a room, there might be one or two people that are interested, right? So then they contact you and you kinda lead into that whole thing. And how do we, personalize what your growth plan looks like? And that was the initial. Then it kind of moved into, , we had somebody come to us and say, I'm struggling with the NAVLE.
I've taken it a few times, don't know what's going on. I'm smart enough. I did well in school. Like, why can't I pass this test? And that one person led to two, led to five, led to 10. And here we are really probably nine years later on the NAVLE aspect of it. And again, it's not all been like huge groups. It started out as a one or two kind of thing.
But now we, we run two cohorts and starting next year, three cohorts a year of NAVLE coaching, which is somewhere usually [00:26:00] around 20 people. And that's only because I just don't have the capacity for more. We usually get 40 or 50 people each cohort that are looking for help. And you know, we just unfortunately just can't take everybody.
They just don't have the capacity for it.
Megan Sprinkle: Yes. And I, I remember I had to ask you if all of a sudden you had to go deep dive and figure out all these veterinary facts, so you are, are, if you were the one training the veterinary facts and you said, no thank you, I, I gave that over to someone else.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Yes. Yeah, so it originally started with Jen was doing the veterinary information, part of the coaching, and it was me doing the, the kind of the overcome the stigma of not passing, Let's call it a trauma of not passing, it may not be the clinical term of a trauma, but it is a trauma when you don't pass those.
So like I was coaching the mental aspect, she was coaching the content aspect. And then as things. progressed and Jen got [00:27:00] vice president and she's traveling a lot, doing all those things. We had to find a different way to, be able to coach the content. So we ended up bringing on and saying, alright, we need, from a group perspective, we needed a veterinarian who's in equine.
And we, we've got a great one who's her friend who, she, she's an equine veterinarian, but she's also therio. We have a Bovine veterinarian. Uh, he was a former assistant state vet. We've got a porcine veterinarian. We have two small animal veterinarians that have also done ER, which Jen's one of them we have, and a neurologist that's as well. So like, so that we can provide that content. And really their job is to answer questions, help you to get from, I think this is the answer, but they say, this is the answer. How do I get to that answer? I don't understand. Right. So that's really the job.
And we run those calls, from a group standpoint, and then on top of that, then it's up to me to coach each person individually through their own steps [00:28:00] to get to the NAVLE.
Megan Sprinkle: and based off some of the things you were telling me, it makes sense that a lot of what the challenge may be is not that the, it's the veterinary information.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Mm-hmm.
Megan Sprinkle: probably more on the. The other side of things, and actually I think I was just listening to a podcast and they were talking about how the pass rate of the, the European.
test was also going down too, and they were saying like, there's of all of these questions, there's a, a, a decent amount on some obscure species, and it's like how many veterinarians are really gonna work on that species? And is that really the best indication that they can practice?
Right? So there's probably some, opportunities to, to look at some of those things. But do you mind, 'cause I'm gonna get it wrong, you were sharing with me like the, the pass rate, the first time around and then looking at the pass rate, like second, [00:29:00] second time around. And it is not what you would think it would be.
So can you share that?
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Right, so there's what's first called the Criterion Group. And the criterion of NAVLE test takers is first time takers with no accommodations. So just you've got the normal. Six blocks, 60 questions one day, that's your normal, that's considered the criteria and it's the first time you've taken it. So the pass rate on that has dropped over the last, even looking back to 2017, I've got some stats that show on that, but it's kind of dropped a little bit and used to be in that. In that kind of mid nineties percentage, and it's now in the mid eighties percentage on the first time. So we've dropped 10 percentage points on that. There's a lot of things, right? We've had covid and we've had some things, but we've seen that drop. But then soon as you move into what's called the non criterion and the non criterion are people that are either retaking the exam or. Or retaking the exam with a, an accommodation or [00:30:00] are a first time taker with an accommodation.
So that's kind of the three groups that are in there, but the vast majority of those are people that are retaking the exam. And obviously there's a lot less people that are doing that than taking the exam the first time, but that pass rate has dramatically dropped over the years, and you would expect that, well, if I've seen this exam before, my pass rate's gonna be higher because I know what to expect.
I've seen the exam and I can go through it. But that pass rate has actually dropped to like. the 50% mark, so like 45 to 50% of those people, , fail this on number 2, 3, 4. Five. Right. So it's how do we overcome that trauma? That's the, that's the big one. So we only work with people that are retaking the nale.
We don't work with any first time takers. That would just be too much volume. And the psychology of retaking the test [00:31:00] is different than your first time taking it.
Megan Sprinkle: you pointed out too that because these are often very high achievers who are getting into vet school,
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Mm-hmm.
Megan Sprinkle: not passing the NAVLE could be really the. first major failure in their life. And you, that's where you were talking about this can be treated like a trauma and I don't know how you feel, I've heard people talk about big T trauma and little T trauma, I don't know all that, but trauma's trauma.
Um, and, and it should be taken with, with care. So, um, is that a big part of it? Where, you know, we were also talking about these, the high achievers, the athletes, the where it is. Yes, there's some more physical, like understanding course material, but then there's also that understanding yourself and, and what's going on inside of the, the head aspect of things.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: yes, very much so. I think, right. Veterinarians understand animals, but they don't understand the human animal. 'cause that's all we are, is we're [00:32:00] a human animal. We're a two legged animal, right? we suffer from many of the same things from a stress slash threat perspective that we see in animals, right?
So if you have a, if you have a. Puppy that's in the exam room and it's, you know, backing up and it's growling and it's, or the same thing with the kitten, right? And we see that threat response in an animal. What we don't realize is that we many times have that same threat response. When we talk about test anxiety, when we talk about anxiety in general. Anxiety is nothing but a threat response, right? It's many times a threat response about something that may or may not come true and probably won't. You know, we're not talking clinical anxiety, that's there, but we're talking about anxiety in general. And if it's a threat response, that means that the body is doing threat response things.
What is that? Oh, my gut shuts down. Okay. If my gut shuts down, that's where 70% of my neurotransmitters are made and housed, right? So if [00:33:00] my gut shuts down, I don't have those quote unquote gut feelings that I know how to answer those. exam questions. What else happens? My heart rate goes up, my respiration rate goes up, right?
My mucosal system goes offline. My prefrontal cortex, the thing that makes me uniquely a doctor goes offline. I can't think like a doctor if I'm under threat response because my amygdala and my brainstem have hijacked my brain. So, you can be super smart and soon as you get into that threat response, trauma, response, anxiety, whatever you want to call it. your gut shuts down and your prefrontal cortex shuts down, which means that you don't have access to the information to be a doctor, that you need to be on the test.
Megan Sprinkle: Well, this starts to even making me think of, even for the people who pass the NAVLE and get into practice the first little bit
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Mm-hmm.
Megan Sprinkle: is extremely anxiety inducing. And, and so I'm, I'm guessing some of those come into play too when you are.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Right.
Megan Sprinkle: [00:34:00] Nervous about something and, you feel out of place. And if you aren't talking to yourself and, and kinda getting in the best mindset,
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Mm-hmm.
Megan Sprinkle: of that training, which is in the noggin, doesn't necessarily,
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Right,
Megan Sprinkle: it's not being allowed to come to the surface, be because of that response, the, the natural survival response.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Exactly right. And as a human, if I am in threat response and I go into an exam room or I go into a stall with a horse and that horse is calm and I'm jacked up on, stressed out, that animal picks up on that. We can, we have the data, we have heart rate variability data that shows how the nervous system in an animal will change based upon what's going on in the nervous system of the human. And actually, so if you walk into that room and the animal is calm, you can absolutely make that animal threat response, right? You can make them anxious by just walking into the room because you are.
Megan Sprinkle: Oh. [00:35:00]
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: if you know how to control that and you know how to manage that threat response, you can have an animal that's in threat response and you can bring them out of it because you know how to manage what's going on in your own nervous system.
So a lot of these people that we work with from the NAVLE, they get to carry these tools through their entire career.
Megan Sprinkle: Well, is there any other tip that you like to share? Maybe when you do speaking engagement? So some, maybe something a little more broad that could be a tool or a resource that maybe people could use.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Yeah, so, one of my. One of my favorites is actually a breathing pattern. So, you know, we talk a lot about, there's people that do yoga, breathing, and you'll hear a lot of times people talk about box breathing, which is the inhale for four, hold for four, exhale for four, all the right.
So, which is a very, I. That comes actually out of the military using that with military snipers. That's where that comes from. So Right. People that are in a very high tense scenario, but when we understand, [00:36:00] again, human threat. So here's a weird thing. So when I inhale, my heart rate actually goes up, right?
Just for that moment. Just when I inhale. Why? Because I fill these two things that I call balloons that are called lungs, right? And I fill them, which means that my heart has less space to, to contract. So when I inhale, I fill that gap. rate goes up for a moment, so thereby when I exhale right, my heart rate can go back down. Well, knowing these two facts, if I were to inhale for four and I were to exhale for eight. Right. Where is my heart rate trend going to go? Is it gonna go up or is it gonna go down? It's gonna go down because I exhaled longer because I've created more space. Right. And then if I repeated that again. I'm going to take the trend down more, which means that interrupts the entire cycle of heart rate going up, respiration rate going up, [00:37:00] gut shutting down, all of those things. So it's real. We call it a four one seven, which is inhale for four, hold it for one, exhale for seven, and if I can repeat that two times I've shut down, I've interrupted the whole threat slash stress cycle.
Megan Sprinkle: That's interesting because I, I didn't know about the 4 1 7, like all of that. But I do that sometimes where I just do this very long exhale and I don't know if anybody else you feel really good after you do it because, it also kind of releases some of that,
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Mm-hmm.
Megan Sprinkle: that built up tension too, I think.
So not only the heart rate. But yeah, it's just like the whole body is just kind of like,
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Right.
Megan Sprinkle: goes into it. So I think that is a very good one. 'cause, and you can do it anywhere, anytime. You don't have to make it a nice, uh, a dramatic, you know, exhale. Like sometimes I do for fun, but, but you know, it could be in internal, so no one's seeing you do that.
Yeah.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: [00:38:00] I love things that can be done anywhere, anytime, and nobody even knows that you're doing it right, because there's things that we do, right? I'm not gonna go sit in the corner in the lotus position, practice my breathing right in. When you're at the clinic, you're not going to, you know, that's not something you're gonna teach people to do.
But if I can just look up, that in, right? Because we're triggering the vagus nerve, we're triggering the diaphragm, we're doing all that. We're literally shutting down and interrupting the threat response, which means that. I'm just a calmer person. All of my muscles are gonna release, all of the threat response goes away.
Megan Sprinkle: Yes. And again, not this can be taken in so many different ways. And I know that one of the other big categories that you have started to focus on when it comes to certain points in a veterinary career, you call it the bookend. It's like the getting started, right? And then also where someone might.
Sell their practice and that is also a big change. [00:39:00] You would think it would be a good. It's a good thing, right? Like that's often what some people are working towards is making this business and being able to sell it and potentially retire or go do whatever. But when everything you have done has gone into being doctor or, or, it's not just doctor who own practices, you know, going into building this business, this baby often.
and then it's, it's gone. or actually you said it's not always that you sell and leave,
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Mm-hmm.
Megan Sprinkle: it. You sell and then stay, which means you now go from boss to employee, which can also be very challenging. So do you mind sharing a little bit about that kind of career transition and maybe taking some of these, skills and things to, to help with that?
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Yeah, I think there's, yeah, again, with the corporate ownership that has really come around since I've, you know, early covid, and it's, again, transitioning a little bit. But again, if you've built something and your entire [00:40:00] team relied upon you, you were the boss, your family relied, like all of that, that not only was veterinarian, if that, if you were the veterinarian, but you were. That was part of your identity, right? So that practice was also part of your identity. And now we make the sale, so right. So we generate a large, many times either we get out of debt or we have a large surplus of income that automatically comes into us. And we don't know how many times how to manage that money. But then we go from being the boss to the employee that's a pseudo boss, right? cause the, the community at large many times assume that it's still owned by you. Right? So, but things have changed behind the scenes, but you're still kind of the boss. Maybe not, but who knows? And the staff doesn't know who's the boss and all of those kinds. It's really emotionally hard because now you went from being the owner. Everything relies up on me to now [00:41:00] everything relies on a corporate, but still, it all falls to me and I'm contracted here for 1, 2, 3, 5 years, whatever it might be. Right? it's a really big mental change on how do I manage that?
And again, if you're 65, 70 and you're doing this, and it was always Old Doc Jones' clinic down the street or whatever it might have been. that's a big change. You're like, I'm looking for retirement, but now I can't retire because I have a contract with these people. Right. So, and it doesn't only mean that it's the older veterinarians that are retiring.
It might might be a 40-year-old that's selling their clinic. Right. It might be a 50-year-old. Uh, But transitioning can be really hard. It's a really, really long way to get there, but, uh
Megan Sprinkle: Oh, no, not at all. this podcast, we talk a lot about transitions because it's very natural in life. Things change whether it's planned or not. you, you have a child, you, get divorced, you move. Um, [00:42:00] these things they say are some of the most stressful things. Changing jobs, like all of these are, are extremely stressful.
A lot of times they, they can be quite good, but still it's hard 'cause it's a transition and yeah, you're going from something that you had gotten into a habit and you had maybe even created an identity around something and then you have to change. So what's the challenge of. Trying to do things yourself and then getting the community the support that you need to also do it with others.
If that is, if you understand my question.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: one of, one of our favorite quotes that we use a lot is, and if you've, you've probably heard it, Jim Rohn, or like one of the business coach, you know, motivators is, you know, you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And then if we, but if we only look at who are the five people I spend the most time with, and if you're in a veterinary clinic, it's like, well, there might be another [00:43:00] doctor, there might be a practice manager, but there's usually another team around me that is, a group of people. It might be assistants, it might be technicians. There's a lot of things, so when I look and I'm like, when, how do I grow or how do I change and how do I manage this when the five people that are the closest to me are people that I see every day that are also gonna go through the same struggle? So that's one challenge to look at from the "five people that I spend the most time with". So we look at it as, what are the five types of people that I spend the most time with? What is my family slash Maybe it's a business partner or something like that though. What are those people? Those are the people that I'm typically gonna be the closest and growth oriented to. What about my team? how do I know them? Do they know about me? Do they know where direction? What about my, my mentors? Do I have mentors that are there as well? So do I have somebody who helps keep me motivated? That's been the path before me. And then colleagues, some people will call it your tribe. People that [00:44:00] are in the same boat as me, but may not be right here next to me, that I can share those struggles with because they go through the exact same struggles, right? I can't talk about it with my spouse, can't necessarily talk about it with my partner, but I need somebody who understands what I'm going through and maybe they're, and they're on a journey too.
So those, what we're gonna call, like my colleagues or my tribe many times, um, are really. That main group of people. So like there's, there's really kind of five areas of that you want. I only mentioned four, but, , I'll kinda, cut it there. But really you need to look at the types of people that you're with and do they help grow you in the different areas?
Megan Sprinkle: Yeah, there is something to that having, nobody likes the word balance, but, this diversity of, of groups of people, because you're right, like. I love to talk about how we as human beings, we are multidimensional. There's so much to us. We're not just a veterinarian or a [00:45:00] veterinary technician like we are parents.
We're we're children. We are, you know, maybe leaders in our community. Like there's so many different things that are part of us and there's no one person that can understand every aspect of that. And so I have also really been proactive to try to find these communities because, there's a lot that my husband is just not gonna understand.
And as much as, you know, we share as much as possible with each other, there's still a certain point where it's like, Nope, There's just not the full support that you need. And so I, I call them masterminds 'cause I probably picked up the term somewhere among those books and podcasts.
But yeah, I have, you know, masterminds of, other veterinary individuals who are also entrepreneurial. And so we have these very unique challenges. but then there's that theme of veterinary medicine that we all relate to. And then I have a, a mastermind of nobody is a veterinary [00:46:00] professional.
We're, we're all. Entrepreneurs that are trying to do side businesses and things. they don't understand anything on the veterinary side, but man, they know SEO and all those fun things that I, I also need help with. And, and so I, I think it's helpful to also just know that. A lot of times it takes intentionality to go and find these as well because all relationships are two-sided, I love talking about it because one, I have seen it make such an impact and a difference when you have all of these support networks that can support you in
all those different needs that pop up in your life, and it's not like all of a sudden, oh, I have this need, I'm gonna go, no, you build these communities along the way so that they, they grow with you. So.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Yep. Absolutely. I think, if you're an entrepreneurial minded person, whether you are already an entrepreneur or not, right? Because there's many people that are entrepreneurial minded that don't yet have the [00:47:00] opportunity to work as an entrepreneur, right? So it's a, I know I want to go there, but how do I find those people?
So I think right, there's that, that kind of thing that comes in where you, just because you're an employee doesn't mean that you're also not an entrepreneur and how do I find those people? But finding those people outside of what you do on a daily basis. So whether it's, you know, you attend a, a local, Business event or you join, you know, a group that's local to you. Um, and you gotta watch out for some of the networking events that kind of come, 'cause they're. I don't need to be just around a bunch of people that are trying to sell me something. Right. That's there's, which is different than true networking and growing as a person and going, okay, I need to find my, group of people, my mastermind, how do I build, that?
And you can have, as you said, you can have multiple masterminds. I've got multiples and multiple mentors and multiple groups of people that help me to grow. You know, I'm [00:48:00] fortunate enough, Jen and I, we call each other more of success partners than anything else because really we are both very growth minded and we are really helping each other to do what we can to succeed.
Megan Sprinkle: Well, actually that was gonna be my question. So when you think about your personal, five categories, you, not necessarily, you have to call somebody out by name, but do you mind describing some of these individuals and, and maybe even an example of, how having that community really helped you personally?
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Mm-hmm. So, and it's morphed over the years. Uh, my parents at being entrepreneurs was one of the people that they instilled that entrepreneurial spirit in me, and I grew a lot from that, uh, having, I. gone through and been married and been divorced, but having somebody in my life who is also of a growth minded person, right?
You can, that can be really a big struggle for a lot of people is like, I feel like I've outgrown my relationship. And if you don't have somebody who's also a [00:49:00] growth minded, that can be a challenge for a lot of people. One of my masterminds came from reading a book. So there's Steve Sims is an author.
He is a, he was a British brick layer, and I actually went and we, do these things that are, uh, called speakeasies and they're, it's a, we've got 40 people you don't know who's attending and you don't know who the speakers are. Basically, you go in and you trust that the things that you're gonna be there are gonna help you to learn.
Right? So that's one became one of my. My mentors and I've attended several of these speakeasies and some of the relationships I've built from people that I'd never met that I didn't even know before going in. We were just, we got there and like, again, you connect with people and sometimes they're close to you, sometimes they're all the way across the country and those relationships to like, go, man, I'm struggling today.
And you can, you know who you're gonna text. You know who that person is that go like to go, no, come on. it up, let's go, let's do this. And that's probably one of my, started out reading the book and reading the book like [00:50:00] three or four times and then going from there and entering the mastermind world.
Megan Sprinkle: What was the name of the book? I'm sorry if I missed it.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: it's called Blue Fishing and
Megan Sprinkle: Okay.
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: Sims, it's called The Art of Making Things Happen. And so he went from this guy being a. Brick layer coming and like going to, another country and basically start creating these events for high net worth people and then ended up creating experiences for high net worth people.
And like, it's just one of those things like it really hit me and I'm like going, okay, and how do I create experiences that was. The thing that drove me with, how do I create an experience for each one of these people that are in our NAVLE versus like, here's your information.
You need to go do this. Right? how do I create the experience of how you retake the NAVLE that's different than anytime you've ever taken it before, or what does that look like as I'm transitioning my, my practice?
Megan Sprinkle: That sounds really interesting. I'm gonna have to look that one up. I haven't heard of that one, so, Well, we've talked about a lot, but is there anything else that you want to leave how did you say it? [00:51:00] The insider, outsider or outsider?
Insider. Um, any other Yes. Yes. Any other tips that you have or, or things you wanna make sure that you mention?
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: I think probably one of my, the most profound things I heard a lot a long time ago from a coaching perspective is like, if you think back to tiger Wood in his heyday as a. a golf professional, he was great as a golf professional, but yet he had coaches. He had people on the outside and they were not better at him at golf than he was, but what they could see was the things from the outside that he couldn't see because it was him, right?
They were not better at golf. They were better at seeing the things and helping him be a better golfer. We can talk about the whole, we can get into the whole like, personality things that go with that too. But, but again, from, I can't see it and I need somebody else to be able to see it. And that's whether it's a coach or whether it's just having somebody that's, again, a, a mentor or another business [00:52:00] professional.
Like, go, here's what you're missing. that's the, I think that's the key for most people, not trying to do it on your own. Nobody that's successful has ever done it on their own.
Megan Sprinkle: Completely agree. And the last question I always like to ask is, what is something that you are very grateful for right now?
Ryan Smith, veterinarian-coaching: I am grateful for so many things, but um, I am, I'm grateful for my parents. Actually, today is my. Dad's 85th birthday. So super grateful for, uh, for having time with him. Like, I'm actually, when we're done here, I'm gonna go to the farm. They live about seven miles away from here, and we'll go spend the day over there with them and doing some things on the farm.
Um, that, and just having people around that like. That you love and say I love you, and that mean it. Like I have a 25-year-old son and he still tells me all the time, I love you, dad. Right? And like, and in a time in their life when you know, even growing up as a teenager, that was not the words that you heard from him.
I heard it from my son. So those [00:53:00] close relationships are probably the thing that I'm the most grateful for.
