Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Cup O Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and if you are just listening, not watching on YouTube, Which I recommend checking out the YouTube, you know, I am sitting in a supposed to be a grove But it's a pathway through a nice little quaint forest here because that ties into what we're talking about today It's been briefly mentioned before on the show, but we've never dedicated an episode to it.So i'm excited to dive into it Which is the underestimated power of nature Especially when it comes to our mental health and even our physical health overall You You know, if you're a scientific person, then you believe that we started out in nature. And even if you're religious, we were made in a garden.So being outside is where we're supposed to be. And, uh, I know my parents always used to lecture me about how they grew up playing outside and, you know, me and the other kids just stay inside and play video games and watch TV. It's not good for our health. And there is some truth to that as we move forward in time and see the effects of people not spending time outside not getting sunlight not getting fresh air and Living such a sedentary lifestyles, but we're here with an expert on that.So dr Heidi schreiber pan so glad to have you here to talk about this subject and really Kind of blow our minds on the the benefits the pros and cons of the lifestyles We're living that most people probably don't even realize I think there's gonna be a lot of aha moments here today So it's great to have you and could you tell us a little bit about yourself, please?Sure. Thanks for having me Yes, you mentioned I have a doctorate in clinical mental health counseling And, um, my dissertation was really the first introduction to diving in more scientifically about something that I personally already knew that was true, which is when I am stressed out and overwhelmed, and if I go outside and I take a walk or I sit by a big body of open water, I didn't think about it.feel better. It's like a felt sense in my body. And I was curious about that. And so I wanted to see what studies were on the effect of nature on mental health and psychological wellbeing. And I was curious about resiliency too, you know, when we hit hard times, um, what helps us bounce back. And also from a spiritual lens, I was curious about Um, human spirituality and how it ties into nature and again and again and again, whenever I had conversations with humans, it would answer nature makes me feel better in nature.I feel closer to God in nature is when I feel my most authentic self. And I was like, okay, we really need to take a deep dive into here and see what is going on with the human and our connection to nature. So I really introduced, uh, doing, it was sort of the dissertation, um, was the place where I first took a more scientific, um, interest in it to, in some way, be more curious about the, the underlying evidence for why we feel better when we're in nature.Yeah, for sure. Actually, we've had a couple guests on talking about from the faith perspective, how, It's just, you know, we just look at nature and I know it's where a lot of people go to get closer with God, uh, put on a layer of Isolation yet breaking down that isolating feeling of being inside like, you know, God can't come inside the house So we got to go out to to where he is, but it is truly beautiful I know a lot of people when you ask them or you tell them think of your happy place.It's a it's a beach It's outside, you know toes in the sand sun on our skin. So I I think that's uh, very true. And so you talk about diving more in into the science behind it So what does that entail you're talking about? Sunlight are you talking about fresh air? You're talking about just on the cellular level.What does that entail? I would say that for a long time, you know human health has looked at Okay, so what happens from a health perspective? When i'm in the natural world or I spend a lot of time in the natural world. I've been a little bit more Interested in the mental health as a psychologist. And so, um, what, and especially with an epidemic, and I really don't use this word lightly of stress and anxiety, um, even before COVID the phone was ringing off the hook, people needed help.We see it in all age groups, people really struggling with anxiety and stress. And so. When I was kind of curious about what happens from the stress response when we're in the natural world and there's really some magic that happens out there because One of the things that causes or when we experience stress is your fight or flight response, right?You're Your brain thinks you're under a threat and when you, when you think you're under a threat, you start having, you know, your pulse rate goes up and, you know, maybe you have sweaty palms and maybe it feels like something stuck in your throat. And so we, we named this the sympathetic nervous system that gets activated, like threat, threat, threat, right?When we're in nature, when we sit by the ocean, when we're walking along the trees, when we are gardening, what happens to your nervous system, it starts dialing down. Um, your stress response, the volume, like a knob, it starts turning down and what gets activated is the rest and relaxation response. We, we breathe a little deeper.We don't even realize this is happening, but all of a sudden we're just like, I feel like I'm for the first time today. I'm actually taking a deep breath. Um, and yeah, it's the sound of the birds, right? It's all these things that are happening often in the background that we're not fully aware of, um, has a really profound impact on us.So I want to tell you this really interesting study that was done. So what they did is they had people in a sleep lab. So these were people sleeping. And what they did is they hooked them up to biomarkers to catch if the nervous system would activate in response to playing them sounds. So these are people sleeping, they're hooked up to machines, and now they start playing sounds.They start with the sound of far removed traffic. And as soon as the ear detects traffic, guess what happens? Stress response. Yeah, yeah. The stress response goes up, and the closer the traffic sounds are played or louder, the more the body is starting to think of it as a threat. Well, this was so interesting because these are people sleeping, right?Well, what was really interesting about it is, and the reason why I found out about it doing my lit review for my dissertation, was there were three sounds that had the strongest effect on the rest and relaxation response. Okay, Mr. Whiskey, you're up. What do you think those were? Tell me those three. Well, I want to say ocean waves, rain noises, and then I want to say, I don't want to say bugs or birds, because birds are what wake me up, but I'm going to say kind of like just, More of a wind in plant foliage and kind of bugs like distant kind of like you sound like you're outside That's that's what I'll say.I know rain I feel like you would want to go hide and seek shelter, but at the same time, a lot of people use rain noises to fall asleep. And I know I feel relaxed when it's raining, but I also don't live outside, so I'm not sure. But those would be my guesses, the ocean waves, the rain, and then just the kind of wind and the bugs rustling.Yeah, so you did, you guessed them all correctly. Oh, okay. So you get an A Awesome, awesome. So the first one was the sound of water. It was the sound of water in all different shapes. It could be the sound of waves. It could be the little fountain that some people have in their office. Right. Um, it could be rain on the roof.It was whatever sound water made. superseded all other sounds in their ability to activate the rest and relaxation. So there's water. The second one was, although they wake you up, it was the birds. Bird song, um, has a very, a powerful impact on your rest and relaxation response. And then the third one was the sound of wind rustling right through.And it's interesting. You said that because that's always a harder one to guess. People usually don't guess the wind. Because sometimes we associate wind like with the hurricane type wind. And that is not your rest and relaxation response. No, not at all. That's the other one. But when it's sort of this beautiful sound like you were describing, right, it's a little bit in the distance and sort of this rustling, that does activate the rest and relaxation response.Um, so fascinating. What powerful, what power nature has even just through its soundscape. Yeah, well, what I want to process, because I'm an intellectually curious person, is that's great information. Have they discovered the why? I mean, what is that related to? Whether that's like, you know, primordial instincts, or if it's something to do, because I'm thinking like, why would water relax me?Why would, you know, these sounds relax me? So did they do studies to find out kind of like the why, what is happening? Yeah. And that's such a good, great question. And I think it leads us to kind of an underlying foundation of, of why nature works in the first place. And then why is it that when we sit by the ocean, we feel better?Like there's all these, these answers that we're seeking. And one of the avenues to explore is to remember the human story, right? It doesn't start in 2024. And it turns out that we lived for the vast majority of our story, of our history. We lived not like we're living today. We live in the natural world, right?If we were hunting and gathering, if we were farmers, but we've only been indoors and for the last 200 years and when you look at the human history chain. Much, much longer was spent outdoors. So your brain and your body, your physiology is much more tuned in to the natural world than it is to modern day sounds, right?So the sound of water for a long time for our ancestors, water meant life. You don't, you don't live very long without water. That's three days. And so our brain as a brain that is based on survival instincts, kind of like you were naming earlier, uh, is going to create this association with water because it means that I'm going to live a little longer now.I just found water, right? So water connects us to survival instincts. Um, and so the same thing with like bird sound, right? It's like when things became very quiet, there was probably a predator at large. And so when there were sounds, when the birds are only singing when they feel safe, right? It's bird song and things like that.So it's, it's just that we're still so tuned in because only 200 years is nothing in terms of the, the story of the human, right? Yeah, for sure. It'd take a long time to kind of rewire all of that. And, um, I don't think humans will ever hear traffic and think I'm relaxed. Uh, I, I just know just driving down the road makes me probably my, my, the most stressful part of my day is, uh, traffic.So that's, that's very interesting though. And to see hundreds of years from now, if that ever changes, if at all, uh, that would be very interesting. And so this is as far as sleeping goes. I'd like to, you know, go to the waking world now, uh, which sleep is important for both your physical and your mental health, uh, the less sleep you get, the more irritable you are, the more you can get stressed, but once we've taken care of that, how can it help us in our daily lives, in our waking hours?Yeah, and I think that a lot of people, you know, so I want to go back to, um, a moment in my, in time when I was getting my PhD in counseling psychology and I was just starting out in the field. And I know it's a lot for therapists to hold human pain and you're always there with people and you walk with them during difficult times.And I was asking people in my field, what do you do to take care of yourself? Like, how do you, what's your self care strategy? And people would always name, yeah, I go for a hike or I go to my garden or I play with my dog outside or I walk or I go kayaking. And I thought, well, this is so interesting. All these mental health professionals are turning to nature for their own self care, but not a single person I asked has actually brought that into the counseling field to work with their clients.So I asked them, I said, well, if it's working for you, why are you not, you know, bringing your client to that? And the answer was, I didn't know I could, or I thought we have to do it indoors. Or, you know, how do I keep confidentiality if we're outside? And so there was all these answers, uh, that didn't seem to make a lot of sense for me because I thought here we have this powerful, um, tool, right.That we all intuitively feel. Um, but yet we're not partnering with nature to bring, you know, better mental health to people. So, um, I think that there's. an intuitive sense that we have. Now, I grew up in actually in Europe. I grew up on the border between southern Bavaria and Austria in the, in the Alpine region.So I grew up in the mountains. My dad was a mountaineer. We would hike in the summer and ski the mountains in the winter. And I know that the mountains are my threat to nature. That's what that makes me feel awe and alive and wonder and, but I know that that's not everyone's threat. Not everyone enjoys the mountains.You know, there, there can be harsh, they can be too cold and the weather can be brutal, right? Some people like you were earlier saying the ocean is more my thing, right? I just love it. And so everyone has it. They had different expressions of their, where they enjoy their connection. Some people love horses, right?That's more, that's more their connection. But we all have it. We all have it somehow, right? Because of our long history in nature. So in the waking times, when we are experiencing a lot of overwhelm or stress, right? It's because we are, um, inudated with the modern day world. Like you said, you get in the car, you're fighting traffic, you got the to do list, you got to respond to emails, right, you're checking your social media.There's all this stuff that's happening, which is very prefrontal cortex based, which is this higher executive place that can't really pay attention. The amount of time we're asking the brain to pay attention was never meant to do that, from morning till night. Um, and so what actually helps is to turn to nature because in nature, our brain's not exhausted.We look at the birds or we ride a horse or we're playing, you know, fishing. The brain is not exhausted doing those things. There's actually a theory called attention restoration. It says that when we're in nature, it restores that high, like that high executive functioning of the brain. It gets like overused.Yeah, I remember when I was in middle school, I had read a study about With people looking at phone screens more and more they were saying like every 20 minutes You should look outside a window or go outside and just look off at the trees for a set amount of time to help just Reset your eye focus if especially if you're getting headaches or issues with your visions because people are staring into phone screens so much And I completely agree My, my ideal would be if I could find a beach on top of a mountain because I do like the mountains and hiking and I do like the beach.Uh, so if I could get both of those where it was hot. How about a lake? Do you like a lake in the mountains? Maybe, but I don't like the cold, so it need to be like a hot mountain, you know. Because they call that a volcano, but I don't want to be there. Yeah, but um, because I, I do like hiking. Uh, I know we have a lot of, uh, people because they don't like bugs.They don't like mosquitoes, but, um, you know, there's ways to take care of that. And, uh, as far as the horses, we've actually had a couple episodes dedicated just to horsemanship and the effect on your mental health and getting outside and the bond you can make. And I know I've talked before on the show about my dog.If it weren't for her, that would be on my computer probably 10, 12 hours a day. But she kind of forces me so to speak that every, um, 30 or 60 minutes, I'll get up, go outside and walk her. And it's a great excuse, especially for men. As you get older, walking around alone can seem a little creepy sometimes, but I highly encourage you, even if you don't have a pet to just go outside for a walk or, um, or set up a chair outside your front door, if you can, uh, Maybe not if you live in New York City, but if you live somewhere that's nature esque to go out there and and just spend some time, or I try to bring my laptop outside, you know, that's the glory of a laptop or a tablet or a phone, even if you're still looking at the screen, just to be out there, to hear the noises, to feel the wind and the sun, I think it can help so much, and for those of y'all listening who want to go on like something a little more advanced, like a retreat, I know Dr.Heidi, you actually have different events and programs, uh, like Peace in the Wild and yoga and stuff like that. Can you tell us a little bit about the programs you host to help people get outside and experience this? Yeah, I think we, um, What we're trying to figure out is how do we help people have a deeper connection with the natural world, right?Because, like you said, we are busy. We're, we're always sort of on the move and we've got this to do that, to do. Um, but we really see a benefit to human flourishing and human health when we can unplug. But some people arrive in nature and they have all the intention to unplug and then they're like, uh, I'm bored or what am I doing now?Or I don't like these bugs that should have never come here. And, um, so we were really trying to figure out how could we create programming that is going to help people really connect back. Um, And, you know, there's magic in a campfire. I don't care if you like nature or you don't have problems, but sitting around a campfire on a beautiful evening and the stars above, there's something, um, ancient in that practice of gathering around the fire.And so we've created these programs that, you know, tap into unplugging, really getting away. Learning more about the natural world and then building community around it. Um, like we said with the campfire and, and, and just being real, right. Being authentic and what really matters to people. And when people can unplug their authenticity and just showing up in a genuine way, and let's just talk about what's real in this world right now, in my world, um, and nature is this beautiful backdrop that allows that to happen.No, I agree 100%. I think, um, it could be really encouraging for people to do it as a group activity. And like we said, actually, we were talking about it in my episode on preventing active duty and veteran military suicide, and we talked about how there are so many activities outside that you just don't think of, like kayaking, fishing, hiking.There's so many ways to go outside, and like you said, be doing something that isn't eating away at your brain's attention, that's still getting you outside and relaxing. So I think it's important for people to really You have, we all have the internet now, most, most of us, right? And you can look up fun things to do outside.You can look up fun things to do outside near you. I mean, there are so many things, and that you can also do something that, uh, feels productive. I know a lot of us are workaholics nowadays, and we feel like if we go sit outside and relax, we're being unproductive, and then we get the negative self talk, and we just get back inside even faster, and we're like, not doing that again.But you can do stuff outside that is productive, especially working on your physical health at the same exact time as being outside. And then, Dr. Hardy, I also just want to talk about the different types of therapy you offer because I have taken a look at your website, and we're going to have that in the description below.And I know you go over a lot of different things, from stress and anxiety, to grief loss, to art therapy, to eating disorders. So it seems like you really tap into a lot of different aspects of mental health, so if you could just tell us a little bit about that as well. Yeah, sure. We were trying to design therapy, um, you know, make it accessible to people.And there's a group of people that might never want to go inside of an office. And do sort of traditional therapy, right? For sure, yeah. But, hey, if it's available while we're hiking, or, you know, we've been in kayaks with people before, um, and all of a sudden, uh, there, for, for a lot of people, there's, it's more open space.And all of a sudden, we're just two people in a kayak, right? And, and things just start flowing. And so, we do really love, um, training mental health professionals, because there's not a lot of trainings out there that say, hey, you're a counselor, a therapist, or a chaplain, or a pastor, and you want to figure out how to bring nature into your work.Um, you know, come to our trainings and let's learn together about like the power and the science and the way to do that so that people feel safe and that you can do it in a way where people are going to return to nature and don't get overwhelmed because not everybody feels safe in nature. Right. We also have to know exactly how we do it and who we take out there.Um, so yeah, I think we, um, well, we just graduated or 250th. Professional that has gone through our training to become a nature informed professional. Um, so that's exciting. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome Like I appreciate what you're doing because I know like my father for example, he hates medical buildings He hates, you know medical personnel.He hates that environment. I don't know if it's the The coldness of medical buildings. I don't know if it's the, you know, the, the attitude or also just the, um, the association, you know, we think of a medical building, we think of surgeries, we think of death, we think of not a lot of nice things, uh, and respectfully, you know, it's not the fault of any of the practitioners or anything, but that's how it is, but we've also talked about the same concept in suicide prevention on my show and other shows I've been on about, um, When you're talking to your children, as a parent especially, and this is for anyone of any age, trying to do it in the car, in like a relaxed ride, rather than at home, in a setting that may seem disciplinary.Like if you are sitting on the couch with them, or in their bed, and you're like, hey, I want to talk, it could come off very disciplinary. Or same, I've done this with military members as well. going in the car where you create that intimate yet distant space. And I know you mentioned just now kayaking or going outside and that creates that same space where you feel intimate, right?You're, you're personal, you're with one another, you're talking, but you don't have to make eye contact necessarily. You can look around at the environment when you're, when it's in the car, you're looking at everything passing by or when you're kayaking or hiking, you're, you're looking around. And then, so you have that intimate yet, distant space plus you don't feel like you're a lab rat or being analyzed, right?You feel like you're having a conversation. So I think it's so important what you're doing. And like you said, I've never heard of training programs offering how to help people integrate this because it's not something that could be easy to integrate when it's something new and innovative. So I appreciate what you're doing.And so like I said, your website will be in a description below for not just people who want to get help, but people who want to help others, you know, and are looking for a new way to implement that. So that's amazing. And just what do you see moving forward with the future of you and your work, kind of the direction you're moving in and what else you want to offer and do?Yeah, it was, it was interesting. So last March, we had the New York Times. Was interested in doing a story on the work that we do and this journalist traveled down from Manhattan And she shouted us for the day and she wrote up this amazing story about us and we were so excited But before the day before it went live she called me and she said I just want to give you a heads up We interviewed the president of the American Psychological Association, and he's not in favor of your approach, and I just wanted to give you a heads up on that.And I said, okay, thanks, you know, and then the next day, the story went live, and I immediately, like, looked at the person, uh, uh, at their comment, and, He was basically saying that, you know, um, you know, these, these are models that are true and, you know, they, these are, um, we have to do it indoors and we have to protect people's confidentiality and all this stuff and everything that he mentioned we address in the training.And so, um, what was so hopeful for me is when they posted the story, you know, how people can leave like comments at the end, right? So many comments that were basically pushing back at what he was saying. And people were like, okay, come on, man, move over. This is a revolution, like embrace it. It doesn't just have to happen inside.You know, this, this, this You know, therapy, if you think of it, therapy wasn't born through Sigmund Freud in Austria. I mean, this is a model of human connection and, and guidance and mentorship and counseling. This has happened always. There's always been people that have helped others. Um, and, and, and most of the time it probably happened outdoors under a tree.So, um, my hope is to really do bring a revolution to the field of mental health. To always bring nature in as an ally partner and helping us. And I think that if we bring nature into mental health care. We're all going to be healthier, but we're also going to care more deeply about nature and care for nature more.I completely agree with you because this idea that, you know, one size fits all in terms of mental health. That's not something I support because on the show we talk about how When it comes to mental health, when it comes to listening and responding and communication, there are so many different forms and mediums through which to do so.You know, humans are cre are creative beings. You know, we've talked before about how if you can't express yourself with words, try art. And people say, well, I can't paint. And I say, there's sculpting, there's dancing, there's singing. There is so many, there's so many different types of art form. And I think the same thing when it comes to Creating that right environment for a person, everyone is different, you know, some people may only want to talk in a very industrial environment for all we know, because that's their safe space, you know, maybe like a steel mill, who knows, everyone is different.And I think we need to I think healing and recovery and human connection, which is the heart of therapy and helping one another, has to be personal. And if it's not, if it's just this churning through this system like an assembly line, that's where we're going to lose that humanity and that aspect of healing.And that's, I think, part of that is trying to push people to medical diagnoses, to get medicine, and there's a lot of monetary factors behind that. Whereas this is. Not pushing medicine. This isn't pushing money. This is pushing human connection and healing Uh, so I understand why there's pushback on that but like you said to see so many people rally together And help that's great, you know, and I know there's always going to people be You know negative people who are going to say this is hippie dippy stuff and xyz But the important part isn't What others think about it is, is it working for the people who need it?And that's what we're here doing. So, I really appreciate you coming on this show and sharing this because I'm hoping it reaches someone who hasn't tried this yet. I know it's not something a lot of people have thought of. Or, like I said in the beginning, it's overlooked. Because people think, oh, what is that going to do?Uh, but I highly encourage everyone, especially people who are super stressed, who are dealing with anxiety, depression. I mean, what do you have to lose from trying, right? It's not like you're gonna Walk outside and it's gonna make you more stressed or worse. Uh, if you go in the right environment, don't just go into a dangerous outdoor environment, but you go into a normal, happy environment outside, uh, worst case scenario, you just got fresh air and a, and a nice walk.So that's, that's not a bad thing. So I highly encourage y'all. If you try it out, and if you're not sure where to start, like I said, Dr. Heidi has her information in the description below and you can reach out to her and I'm sure she has a whole recommendation list of amazing things to try. So Dr. Heidi, thanks for coming on the show and sharing.I, I really appreciate this. Thank you for having me, and I hope that we all can spend some time outside at least tomorrow. . Thank you.
