Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of a couple of nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and today is finally another episode of Civilians versus Nukes.
But this is no ordinary civilian. He has sailed to sea navigated disguise as well as the Earth. So he is been in all three domains. We got here on our planet. Captain Russell Roberts, also an author. I actually just finished his book, so we're gonna talk a little bit about that, hopefully no spoilers. And we're gonna talk a little bit about his life, some of the laughs he's shared, and some of the advice he has for us.
So Captain, go ahead and take it away. Now, Mr. Whiskey, first of all, I want to talk about you for a minute, so, oh, thank you. Is is whiskey phonetic or is that a, a beverage choice? So, I mean, I, I would drink anything anyone gives me really, uh, you know, not the, I'm pretty easy to roofy, you know, like if someone just hands me a drink.
Okay. Um, whiskey's pretty good. It's, uh, it's not my go-to, I actually like more of the, the fruity stuff, like a Seagrams. I like pina coladas. Like I don't drink to get wasted. And, and, and, and you know, forget the night I get, I drink 'cause I'm like relaxing, you know, something nice and something nice and relaxing.
Kind of fruity. So. There you go. Yeah. What about yourself? Some of us call those sissy drinks, but, uh, yeah, yeah. Trust me, I know when I'm on a cruise ship, on a cruise ship, I always, uh, first thing I get, I sit out in a veranda and, uh, ask for a, my tie, give me a, my t tie. He says, you want my tie or your tie?
And then so I, I get my, uh, vacation started with a nice sissy drink. So, yeah. So I was wondering about whiskey. You know, you, you being a Navy man, I didn't know whether it was a phonetic thing for your last name or a Oh yeah. It's, it's on several levels. You know, it's funny, you, you, you mentioned sissy drinks.
So I went to this bar downtown and I like to get the, the, the fruitier drinks that, you know, and so I'm always being called gay or, or you know, sissy. And there was this drink and it was called the Princess drink, and it was like leechy juice and, and a little bit of some fruit juice. And it, it was delicious.
But of course, you know, it's so embarrassed. I look at the way, I was like, can I get the princess drink? You know, because I already, I. I always get, you know, beefed on by the guys for it. But hey, I like to drink what I drink, so. Well, I got to a point in life where I figured, well, I fly big jets and as you mentioned now I've sailed the sea and well, I figured tough man.
If I like to drink, I don't care what it's called, I'm gonna get it. I don't have anything to prove anymore, so, yeah, there you go. So, uh, so do we, should we name, should we give you a first name? Uh, I was thinking, uh, you probably wouldn't want Maker's Mark. Um, that's funny. So I had a Bank of fa, uh, first name for Facebook.
It wouldn't let me put Mr. So I put Mark, uh oh for Oh, mark. Okay. So yeah, it was a, it was, it actually was just the first name that came to mind and I was like, huh, maker's Mark. I guess it kinda all works out. So it's M Mark Whiskey? Yeah. Essentially, yeah. Maker Mark. We, we won't tell anybody but the maker's part.
Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking Jameson would be nice, but then you'd be stuck with a middle name of Irish, so, yeah. Well, I'm half Italian, half Irish, so. You go? Well, mostly Italian. Mostly Italian. You know, you don't really see it on the show, but in real life I'm always like, you know, the hands are everywhere.
The hands are everywhere. There you go. Well, good. Well, we've got a, we've got, uh, we've got something going for a, a new moniker for you. M Eminem, uh, whiskey, uh, Jameson. Eminem Whiskey. I like that. It, it, it's funny because I'm dropping my new rap video soon, so that, that's kind of funny. Kind of. Oh, not Eminem.
Not Eminem, but Eminem, you know? Yeah. And, and so you've got a rap video coming on, and, uh, did I hear you say that you had already written nine books? Yes, sir. I, I've written nine books. The first six I wrote when I was 14. And so, um, I'm actually rewriting that series because 14-year-old me and and me now have totally, my writing skills are better.
You know, I, at least I like to think so. One more hold. Um, and I've got a, I've got a couple more books coming out this year, my first nonfiction book coming out this year about suicide and identity and military and civilian life. So yeah, hopefully be on the lookout for that. That's gonna be pretty, pretty epic.
And, uh, yeah. I'm glad I read your book because now I have a little more experience with, I don't normally read nonfiction, so think your book and then Vietnam Ko, uh, that episode on my show, I read Robin Bartlett's book. So podcasting has gotten me into the world of nonfiction books, and they're pretty exciting.
They're actually a lot more exciting. And your book was The Passion for Airplanes. I mean, wow. I I've never experienced someone who loved so much. I, I really haven't. I, I had a buddy in high school who he could tell what a plane was just by hearing the engine noise. And, and, and you reminded me of that.
And, and then some. There you go. You know. Exactly. I can do that too. And, uh. You look up, I look up in the sky. I can generally tell whether it's a Boeing or an Airbus up there, you know, if it's visible at all. But, uh, yeah, that's, it's just been with me, just part of my, uh, part of my D-N-A-D-N-A. It seems like I was incarnated to be around airplanes in this life, you know, just, just, and I was lucky enough, some people suggest that because my father was a pilot, that, uh, there was nepotism involved.
It was because of him that I got into airplanes and it, that could very well be true. But it seems to me that I got into airplanes because as I came into this life, I chose a family that would fulfill my mission. That's the way it feels to me. Yeah. It's been a, as long as I can remember. Well, I guess in the book you read, my first memory of being on earth here was doing a loop in an aranka champ.
I was, first memory I have, being on earth was upside down in an airplane, so, so there you go. Yeah. So Roberts, why don't you announce your, your book for us, for everyone. It's gonna be in the description below for the podcast. It's available on Amazon. And I also heard mention of a, a sequel perhaps. So why don't you tell us about that?
Yeah, well the first, uh, first book was, is a memoir of my first, uh, 30 years. And all the flying that went, went in was involved in that. And the, uh, next one is the sequel, which will be the airline career, the experiences that I had, and also the people that brought me along in the airline industry, my mentors, my friends that, uh, their stories.
So hopefully it'll hopefully be out before long, working hard on it. Yeah, that's great. I kind of, uh, you know, 'cause the, the website I found you on for podcasting kind of gave your whole bio and so I went into the book expecting to read everything and so I found, I kind of felt, um, I. It kind of felt like, uh, my first day on prom night, you kind of led me on there, you know, I was expecting so much more.
And then, you know, but now having finished the book, I realize it's kind of your origin story, setting you up to how you became a pilot. And there's a lot of things in the book I want to address, by the way, ladies and gentlemen, the ending is phenomenal. The plot twist is just wasn't you. You don't expect a plot twist like that in, in a nonfiction, so it's great.
I'm not gonna spoil it, but it, it really left, it was emotional. It was, it was just so heart wrenching a moment for me and, uh, I can't imagine for you of the thanks for, uh, thanks for saying so. Yeah. One of the big surprises, uh, was the Jehovah Witnesses. I never expected them to show up in your book. And, and that I was just completely thrown off guard.
I was, I never expected them to show up in my life either. And, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I never heard of them. And then when, yeah, it, uh, it was, uh. It changed our family for sure, and, uh, changed the family dynamic and, uh, gave me a whole new, uh, well, the thing for me that it did, the witnesses showed up, and as I grew up, I, it allowed me to question what I'd been taught, and thus, the title of the book, unlearning to Fly, uh, learning a lot of the things that parents and others taught that, uh, you know, I took for, um, for the, uh, unvarnished truth.
And then as I began, began to think for myself, course, all that changed, giving myself permission to, to cast off those old learnings. Yeah. And you know, it's, it's crazy. The last place you'd expect to find Jehovah Witnesses is in the middle of nowhere, Alaska, where you had nothing but junkyards and miles of just abandoned projects.
And like, especially there, you know, they kind of spread their word door to door. I mean, that was crazy to me. I, I would've. I would expect it in Virginia, if anywhere. Yeah. I mean, they're, uh, they're, they're everywhere. I mean, just they evangelize, uh, you know, like the Mormons, uh, Mormons go out and around and they're everywhere also, you know, and, and it was, well, we'll just talk about that for a minute.
The witnesses, I think are generally, I found them to be good people, um, right. Morally forthright, uh, you know, taught to care for each other and, but it just didn't work for me. Just didn't work. Right. Yeah. I, I mean, that message was really clear in, in the book how you felt about having Christmas taken away.
You know, you mentioned multiple times the year you lost Christmas. Yeah. That was a, excuse me, that that was a, yeah, that was a bad deal. You know, when you're six years old and have Christmas wrenched from you, it's uh, it's traumatic. Yeah. And, and that's the thing too, actually, my buddy, we call him Homewrecker.
He's been on the show a couple times and he actually, Jehovah Witnesses were introduced into his life and I think. The most difficult part about that is when you haven't been one and you're still a kid. Because for him, the biggest thing was losing sports in, in holidays, you know, he wasn't allowed to participate in sports and because his parents were separated, his mom was going to court saying, look, his father is forcing him not to partake in sports, but we aren't Jehovah Witnesses, only his father is.
And it became this huge thing. And luckily once home record got like 16, it, it became kind of his choice. They were like, look, he, you know, it is only a part-time Jehovah's Witness if he wants to participate in sports. Um, but yeah, I thought that was really important. Just, you know, how it affects children who are already participating in everything in life and suddenly it's taken away, you know?
Yeah. Discipline as an adult is, is a lot easier. And it should be, it's not always for some people obviously, but when it comes to like, Hey, now I have to abstain from these certain practices, you know, it's much easier as an adult than a child and. To me, that message in the book was so important. You know, and, and ladies and gentlemen, don't, don't get us wrong, you know, the book isn't bashing on Jehovah's Witnesses the whole time, but there definitely is an insider view of certain things, and I love really how it changed your father al, almost for, for the worst.
And, and that's one of the things I wanna talk about, if you're comfortable getting into it, what I love the most about your book, just because I've had issues with, with my father and, and with regards to his drinking, to giving up on everything in life. The book starts off with, your father is your hero.
He is the perfect man. And as you grow up, there's more and more criticism and, and kind of the, you know, you had these glasses on that were filtering your father as this perfect man. And as you grow older, you kind of, they kind of fade away. As you mature, you learn about stuff and you meet other men. You know, part of the thing is you didn't.
Until later on in your life. Then you started having these other father figures you attached to that you mentioned in the book. And so if you could talk a little bit about that. And, and one of my, one of the things I, I was disappointed in the book of Mr. Roberts was that after the time, skipped to when you're an adult, you kind of, your father and family kind of just fade out of the story.
But I think that speaks to real life, how when you, you reach a certain point in your age where your family, if you have a bad relationship with them, you finally have that freedom from them. And so if you could talk a little more about what happened with your family, uh, because your father does make little cameos near the end of the book and, you know, you're talking to him on the phone.
And, and to me that was the, the most important part of the book. That's what I took away the most. And it could be personal bias, but I love the relationships and, and seeing how your father affected your whole life from the people you clung to later on in life, to how you made your decisions and what you thought about.
Yeah. You know, we do leave our parents, don't we? At some point, we, you know, around puberty, people generally start to separate from their parents, right? And, uh, I, I, the, the book. Took on a life of its own. And, uh, toward the end, yes, I was living my own life. But my dad, as you said, he still, as you put a cameo, appearances, um, right up to the end of the book.
Um, yeah, you know, we talk about him and, uh, and, uh, as we get older, you know, well my, I cut my dad a little slack now, my father, when all of this, when the story was going on, he was younger than my own son is now. And, uh, so I I, I do cut him a little slack there because he was still forming himself, you know, in his early, early twenties, uh, thirties.
So, um, yeah, he never, he was never able to, um, he never became. Fully actualized. He died when he was 59 years old from cancer. I mentioned in the book how he wasn't feeling well. Well, he died a couple of years after the story ended. Oh, wow. But, um, so yeah, he, uh, an important part of my life, certainly. Um, and you talked about being lucky enough, I was lucky enough to meet other people that came in and acted as important mentors.
And I think the, the important part of that too is some of your mentors, a lot of these guys that you clung to weren't the best characters, but to you because they were more successful than your father because they had that drive that he kind of gave up on to you. They were like these amazing people, these celebrities, you call them, you call them, you know, Hollywood celebrities.
They're, you know, being an airline captain was like king of the world. Uh, yes. You talk about people who just, were just regular guys. And I think it's, it really spoke to how. Our fathers play a role in our lives. My dad's friends, um, when the story opens, were primarily airline people. He was a mechanic, right at Capital Airlines, which was one of the predecessors of United.
He was learning to fly at Beacon Field in Alexandria of Virginia. And the people that surrounded him were a lot from the airlines, and he gravitated to, to airline pilots as well, because that's what he wanted to do, right? So all of our, all of my parents' friends were, were airline people. And the story opens with, uh, a lot of drinking and smoking and shooting rifles into a fireplace.
And for me, this was great. It was, I was surrounded by royalty and I thought this was what royalty did. You know these lofty airline pilots, airline captains. But as, as adults reading this, we say, boy, these, these people were pretty flawed, just like everybody, you know, right. And, and I, I, I actually thought that was hilarious.
They were shooting guns right. In the house. I was like, wow. That's, that's right. That's crazy to think about. It is. It's nuts. And for me it was like, oh, life. Yeah. This is just, this is just what parents and adults do. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought it was interesting, you know, the way you word it, it's almost like your father invented cruise control.
Um, using, I know you had the Volkswagen, they kind of put stuff together to just keep it going, you know, it was like, they basically invented cruise control. It kind of did, didn't they? With the little Volkswagen bug we had, which was our transportation to Alaska. Uh, it was either wide open throttle or nothing.
So he just, he, yeah. Devised a throttle that would push against the accelerator and he said, man, that makes a driving a whole lot easier. Wouldn't hold a steady speed. But, uh, with the Volkswagen, I don't know whether to have a 30 horsepower engine or something. You know, generally you're a wide open and 55 miles an hour, so.
Yeah, he was pretty clever. He was pretty clever. The kitchen he built on the back of the bug, you know, that was another right example, this ingenuity. Yeah. My dad was, uh, he was very smart and ingenious and uh, right. And he was also had an addictive personality. And I mentioned he was either addicted to alcohol or religion, sometimes both at the same time.
And I, yeah, in retrospect, I don't know which addiction was worse. Right. And he was also addicted to starting projects and never finishing them. You know, that was, and, and for me, I was just as disappointed, uh, in him a as you were in the, he had so much potential. Like, I recognized that you recognized that.
And, you know, it's like he kind of just always put it to waste. And, you know, even with, you know, when he, he crashed, I believe it was the, the Luscombe. Luscombe, I don't know how to pronounce it, but when the airplane in your head, it's luscomb. Yeah. A little airplane you had even when that was such a big project.
And then he kind of just gave up on it. And, and I remember you talked about how he just let it sit in the driveway and there's a whole scene where they're taking it away and you describe how your father was reacting. The guy who was taking it away was reacting and how you felt. And, and to me it was like, wow.
You know, he kind of just let it fade away. A after he had painted it all the, you said the, the color scheme was, uh, not the most, your father wasn't the best, uh, designer. No, it certainly didn't have a sense of a, a good color palette, let's put it that way. Uh, yeah. Right. No. And that the airplane, uh, the airplane did sit in the driveway for some time, and then that was repossessed be long story short, the airplane had to be taken apart and put in our driveway.
And my parents had purchased it on a time payment, uh, contract payment, and couldn't afford insurance. So when the airplane was balled up. He just let it sit until it was repossessed. The original owner came and got it. Right. I was heartbroken because that, I think I was seven or eight when the airplane finally was repossessed, and that was my airplane.
Yeah. It belonged to me. And so I was heartbroken when it was leaving. Yeah. And you know, it's, it's funny, the whole book, you have these arguments over finances and stuff and, and I won't spoil it, but the ending of the book, I think that's part of what was so shocking. Uh, you know, without speaking about it.
That's what shocked me the most. Like these financial hardships could have been avoided, you know, so to speak. And I think also just, it was a reoccurring theme. You know, your parents lost this airport that was doing great, the restaurant was doing great. I mean, you grew up there basically, and spent every day there.
And, you know, I never, I couldn't wrap my head around why you're, I. Parents let it get why they didn't, you know, work on their taxes or whatever it was. And I'm sure there's things that even you and you don't know that went into all of that, but it definitely was something that, you know, just the idea that they had everything going for them and, and they let it get taken away.
And this was a reoccurring theme time. And again, I, and again, and it was the end, the su the success was always in sight, wasn't it? It was just, just there. Yeah. And it wasn't over the horizon. It was in sight and then it was, boom, they, they cut it off, they stopped it. They torpedoed themself. Yep. Did something to end it.
But you're absolutely right. I mean, my dad could have fulfilled his dream of being an airline pilot. Yeah, yeah. And that's what he said. But when the opera, he, he wasn't, he wasn't willing to wait for time to unfold. I. Yeah, the airlines weren't ready for him for a while. Nobody was hiring when he thought he was ready to be hired.
If he had just waited another four years, he would've been hired. My grandmother, when we were in Alaska, he had given up by this time, he had become a religious zealot. He had given up on his dream of being an airline pilot, and my grandmother from the east coast sent him an advertisement, I think it was from the Washington Star Eastern Airlines, was advertising in the newspaper for pilots, and they were willing to hire low time pilots, maybe even with private licenses, and they were going to train them to get their commercial license.
She sent him the ad and he just, oh, well, you know, it won't happen to me. He never replied, never checked in with Eastern. He could have had a decent career. He would've been retired before their bankruptcy and, uh, would've changed. That would've changed everything for, for my family. Right. And, you know, it wasn't just his own failures and, and giving up that kind of broke his spirit.
It was also, we talk about how the Jehovah Witness introduction to your life really changed things. Now Roberts, how do you, you know, I'm sure you're haunted by these huge what ifs. I mean, reading the whole book, I was just like, what if this didn't happen? Especially later on in the book, uh, there's a five day delay during a agreement where you almost became the CEO, uh, of a brand.
You know, you were gonna restructure entire airline organization and, and that was one of the most painful moments of the book, and I'm sure you still think about it today. Mm-hmm. You know, what would be your advice for everyone on, on these what ifs? You've lived quite a while now, and you've lived so many different lives beyond all of that, and you still managed to accomplish your dream, so, so what life advice do you have for us?
The primary dream that I had for myself was to be an airline pilot. Yeah. And, uh, the, the story about how we almost acquired a small airline is interesting. It just sort of fell into my lap. Um, and I was lucky enough to have, again, people in my life, mentors, we'll call them who, um, who, who made this opportunity possible.
Uh, the small airline, 21 airplanes regional carrier in Virginia, uh, was going bankrupt. And yeah, I was able to, uh, meet the people who were the, who were running it, the executives. And then I had a group, um, serendipitously that, uh, that I knew. So I was able to put these two together, and we came within a week of owning the airline.
Um, it, and it was fun. It was probably one of the most exciting things I've ever been involved with. Right. And I, I can understand now how business people get. Get, uh, excited about what they do because it's like, oh, if this happens now, if we can just do this now, if Right. If he says this, all this more projects.
More projects and also pieces and parts of putting it together to make it happen. Like, yeah, we were going to take this small airline and move it to Dulles International Airport prior to United Airlines building a hub about the same time. Really, we would've wound up being the regional carrier for United Airlines on the east coast.
Yeah. Which we still to this day, I mean the people involved, uh, most are going now, but we, uh Right. We thought we would have a successful operation and I still believe it would've been. Um, but what I realized when all of that didn't happen, uh, when the airline didn't come to fruition for us, is that my primary dream was not to run an airline, but to be an airline pilot.
Which, you know, financially speaking is probably, it doesn't make much sense, but that's what I wanted to do and that's what I went back. Yeah. And I went back to my original dream, which worked out, which worked out great. Right. It's almost like, you know, you always have felt predestined to be a pilot and you know, it's like you almost got off course and, and it's like the, the hands of the universe and I believe in God.
So I was like, God kind of put you right back on, on course to be a pilot. He is like, you're not a CEO, but it's still amazing to think about. And I do think it would've been successful because y'all called the failure of the, the woman who overheard of your, you know, overheard of your deal and through some means.
All right. And, um, basically what happens, you read, you read carefully. You, you got a, you got a lot of details that, uh, yes, sir. Thought about that. Basically they offered $1 million more and you're like, there's no way we can. Can offer that. And, and, and the biggest thing is y'all could have closed before this.
Uh, I believe, you know, your your one mentor, he was getting older and he's like, you know, is this something I want to do? Yes. And, and I, I understand that, you know, but I just wish he had signed the deal. And then if he wasn't feeling it later on in life, he could have passed it on to someone else because it, it is crazy thing.
You could've entirely restructured what, uh, uh, the east coast, you know, airline system is like nowadays. You know, I mean, we were, we were very lucky. Everything the man you're talking about at Stanley Hogan's, dear friend of mine, and yeah, he and his wife Flo were like extra parents for me, so, right. I'm so lucky that they came into my life.
But Stanley was a self-made, um, millionaire. He had pushed, um, um, carts, uh, in the garment district when he was 12 years old. His father in New York abandoned the family leaving Stanley at age 12, the breadwinner. For his mother or his younger brother and himself. So Stan pushed carts in the garment district for a number of years, and this was during the depression.
Um, he would, uh, work, he worked for his uncle and he remembered taking a water truck and hooking up to a hydrant that happened to be hooked up to a speakeasy. And they would, they would, uh, wow. Pump beer into the speakeasy. I mean, this guy had a tremendous, tremendous life. And later the Navy drafted him for World War ii.
He wound up being the skipper of a, uh, ocean going tug. And after the war, they kept him over in Asia to run the tug carrying supplies between, uh, Sebo Japan and Shanghai. So, I mean, he had a tremendous life and, and he became something of a takeover, uh, artist. He would buy businesses that were in distress and turn them around and, and run them for a while and make a profit when he sold them.
And that's what, that's why he was perfect for the Air Virginia thing. We were operating, uh. His king Air, uh, at the time, and we flew together a lot. He was a private pilot. I grew to love him. I mean, just a wonderful person. So with his talents, my ambition, and also the other kingpin in this operation was a guy named Mort Byer who ran yeah, an outfit in, um, in a, in Arlington, Virginia called Amark, which was at the time and maybe still is the premier airline consultant business.
When Pan American wanted to do a employee stock option program, uh, they came to Mort to put it together. Mort had worked for Pan American in the 1950s. So we had these experts and Mord, uh, put together the, the Dulles hub proposal, um, for Air Virginia. Right. Had all these people that you've heard that expression.
When the student is ready, the, uh, the teacher will appear. Yeah. It's, it's kind of like that when, when I was ready, all of these experts appeared. These people helpers. Right. You know, just, they were there and it's insane. You were so young. You were just doing your thing and while you, even though you were young, you know, I, I talk about this all the time because it's kind of happened in my life too.
You had all these life experiences and, and tragedies and opportunities thrown at you where you kind of grew up really fast. And talk about the youngest flight instructor in America, they, they had to change the rules because of you. That was hilarious. Mm-hmm. But even you had such a crazy opportunity. I, I was reading this and I was like, this is insane.
This would never happen nowadays. A teacher was supposed to, I don't remember his name, but he, you know, he sat there smoking cigarettes in, in the, in like the closet. And he was like, Russ, I need you to teach this class. You know, I'm supposed to teach it. I don't know. I don't know anything about it. And you actually.
Got out of your one class to teach another class as a student, took them to um, air shows and everything. And I was like, that is something that would never happen nowadays. But that was such a unique opportunity that really helped you grow as a person. And I thought it was amazing. I wonder if it if things like that could happen today.
I are, we just not willing to press the envelope? And I don't know, I find it hard to believe because to me it doesn't seem like those were the good old days. It just, you know, it, it was just opportunity presenting itself and I wonder if we're just not teaching our young people well, that they can reach out and take it, take the opportunities.
I don't know. I, yeah, it's, it is very interesting. We actually talked about this. The, uh, well, we, I talked about it the other day, but I was with Mike Roth. He used to be a salesman and he was talking about these, how things lined up. And these are things that nowadays are completely obsolete. But at the time, these deals he, he made are, you know, it's like opportunities that are wouldn't exist nowadays.
And he, you know, kind of, we had a conversation, he said that sales is still relevant today. It's just a totally different game, but it's the same kind of things. Um, but yeah, I just thought it was interesting that you had to grow up pretty fast. And one of the things that I, I was kind of let down with, because I was very curious about this aspect of your life is, you know, once you get to the part of the book where you're kind of like 16, you know, you start thinking about girls and, and you know, there was this woman named Swinger who was like the woman for one of your mentors.
And he just grabbed her, right, right. By the Gooch in the, in the, in the kit, in the middle of the living room. And you were like, wow, that's what it's like to be a man and. You know, so, and you try to take this girl out and then your other mentor takes her out for a private ride to the beach that was spo you want her to tag along with you.
So, you know, throughout the book, you have no success with, with women, unfortunately. And then next thing you know, for better or worse, for better or worse, I'd get to worse a certain point, of course, the desire was there, but I don't know if I had gotten, uh, um, strong may have thrown you off your career.
Yeah, yeah. It would've thrown me off course, maybe. I don't know. I was fine the way it worked out, but, uh, yeah, at the time it was pretty frustrating. Right. And I'm glad I didn't take, you know, uh, Bob, when he, when he grabbed swinger like that, his wife, it was like, yeah, man, that's what meant, oh, that's what airline captains can do.
Yeah. And I saw that it was like, there were a lot of what really were negative examples and I, I didn't, I didn't emulate them. I, fortunately, I didn't emulate that part of my, uh. Of my exemplars behavior. Yeah. You were just thinking to yourself, I'm gonna be an airline captain and there's gonna be, every flight attendant's gonna be hot and she's gonna be all over me.
And you know, I guess that's, that's the dream of some young men want to be pilots, but the reason I bring it up is we time skip. And then you mentioned you're like, you said you'd been married for two years now. I was like, to who? You know? Mm-hmm. And that part of your life kinda got cut out. And I want to know, is that something I can see in the, in the sequel?
Uh, because that's something I was really curious about. You know, you kind of didn't mention being married. You actually talk more about one of your students who's always, she was always happy go lucky. And I thought, I thought you were about to get divorced and, and, and leave your wife for this, this airline student you had.
Um, the one who got lost, uh, you know, you kind of let her fly over the mountains and there was thunderstorms and, you know, I, I won't spoil all that, but. You know, I was waiting for, for you to find love and then it was like, eh, it was just, you kind of just threw it to side. And is that because you know, your true love was, was airline?
I remember when you were, when broadcasting you were on radio, you felt like you were betraying your, you call it your first love flying. So was your wife really the, your, your third love? Yes. My, you know, I, I was married for a, for quite a while. I mentioned in the preface to the book that I didn't talk a lot about my siblings either.
Yeah. And by extension I didn't talk about my, uh, my children, nor did I talk about my, my wife at the time. Um, I really didn't think that my book primarily about my love of aviation, it was a love story. Right. Love of aviation. I didn't think that, um, those relationships a furthered the plot. I. Even though it is a memoir, you know, every good story has a plot line.
And I didn't think that, uh, I wasn't sure that my story telling my story about their life and the Roberts family would've been, would've been accurate. Yeah, it definitely would've been biased. But for me, you know, the thing with, with your book, I, I know it's the journey between you and, and the airline industry, but we as a reader, we get attached to you.
You know, we're like, we're we actually read it as if we are you? So, you know, that's why I was just really curious and I, it's funny, I did think about that because, uh, in the beginning of your book, your siblings are, you know, pretty, pretty relevant just because, you know, airplanes weren't, they were your passion, but they weren't your life yet, you know, you were a child, and especially you go over the one story where your youngest sister, you know, kind of was messing in your personal space with your airplanes, and then you kind of pushed her away, and then you, your dad decided to teach you a lesson and.
There's, I had a lot of mixed feelings about that. I felt like on some level what he did was, it was very demonstrative of what you were doing, but I felt like he kind of took it too far. He definitely took it too far. And I think that was your, your mother being passive during that. I think that really spoke a lot too, uh, about the way your household was ran.
But yeah, later on your, your siblings are kind of just mentioned. Like you, you had your, uh, kid being watched by your sister and that was it. Yes. You know, there wasn't a lot of mention of that, and I felt like part of that too was just as, as you grew up, you know, you, you grew more distant from your family.
Like my sister and I, we were almost like twins inseparable. We, we always, you know, we knew exactly what each other was thinking. We did everything together. And after I went off into the military and I, I did my thing and she was still in school, you know, it is just. We still love each other. We're still siblings, but you know, you kind of just grow apart.
You live your own lives. And, and so I did feel like that, you know, you leaving them out for the most part, kind of spoke to that, how they were in the beginning. You know, they helped develop you as, as a child when you all live together. And then they kind of, they're in your life, but they're not, you know, a, a dominant part of it.
It can be, um, it, it can be episodic, uh, your relationships with people, right? Of course, when you're a child, you know, it's your, your siblings. My, my older sister, she's the first friend I had, you know, she was there right? She was two, two years old when I arrived. And, uh, you know, and, and as we grew up, of course we, we grew apart.
But now, even though we're separated by geography, we're, we're closer now than we have been in decades. And so, um, relationships with people, I. It can be episodic, but these people can, um, then come back into your life later. You know? Just because somebody leaves the scene doesn't mean they won't be back later, you know?
And marriages are like that too. Boy, one of the things that I was taught when I was, uh, young is that, is that when you marry, you marry for life. This was, uh, right. I think, uh, maybe the religious teaching, uh, maybe it was something my parents brought in from when they were raised, uh, but that I believe that that was a structure that was structural, right?
And when my marriage ended, it was like I had to rebuild the whole building from the foundation up. And now new chapters have evolved. That wouldn't have been possible if I had remained in that relationship and stayed married. So even though these things, again, unlearning, we, I unlearned that, uh, I, I learned that the end of a marriage is not the end of life.
Right. The end of a relationship. The end of a relationship with your parents, your parents, not the end of life, you know, things keep on, keep on unfolding. Yeah. If we're open to them especially. Right. And so I'm assuming, did you and your wife get divorced or did she pass away? No, no. We were divorced. Um, okay.
Yeah, they were divorced. Yeah. I'm just, so my biggest curiosity wa was how you met her and who she was, because I was like, was she a flight steward? It is. Because your life revolved around airports and airlines so much. I wonder if you happened to meet someone somewhere else and how that affected your life, because now you had to bring this person into your world of aviation, which can be a lot to handle.
I mean, I, when I was reading your book, I, I loved how passionate I read it. Like, this guy is obsessed with planes. Because growing up, I mean, the way you spoke about things, the, the book is very well written. Let me congratulate you on that. It is very well written. I mean, it is. You are speaking from the heart and, and you spoke in such a way that I, I almost grew to love planes.
And then once you got to all the technical terms, I was like, all right, forget it. You know, you're talking about all the instruments inside, which was still fascinating to learn about, but I was like, all right, this is beyond my, my level. No, but it, it was is also interesting that at such a young age, I didn't know you could fly airplanes so young.
Yeah. Well, it was, uh, certainly, like I said, airplanes were the thread, you know, that just, I wrote somewhere, right? Somebody wrote, I don't know. They were the thread that held my life together as I was growing up. And, uh, it hasn't always been a perfect relationship either. Yeah. Um, the, the new book, uh, I've described it, you know, as people say, well, what's the book about?
And I could say, oh, it's about my next 30 years of flying airplanes. I. Adult. So what I say is that every millions of people get to ride on airliners, but very few get to ride in the cockpit, you know, past that locked closed door. And the cockpit is where the action is. And flying for an airline, I've described it as, as having great sex with an abusive spouse.
And I'm familiar with that. And you, and add another thing with the airlines, you can't divorce the spouse. You're stuck with that. Yeah. Spouse forever. If you change airlines in the middle of a career, you start over at the bottom. It's not like if you're a, oh, I don't know, a physician that moves to another hospital.
Uh, if you right an airline pilot and you get rehired by another airline, you start at the very bottom of the seniority list. And that means not only, um, responsibility, it also means salary starts completely over. So that's something you just can't do it. Totally. I mean, you're, you're, when you saddle that horse, you ride it to the end.
And, uh, so imagine that, you know, being, being the spouse of an abusive person, and yet you're having terrific sex at the same time. I mean, I don't even have to imagine it because I, I read your book, so ladies and gentlemen, if you wanna know this abuse from the airlines that, that Russ is talking about, or just flying in general in, in his book, he takes a single engine little plane across the whole ocean.
And, you know, it is not a, a, a. Chapter of the book that will put you to sleep because it's boring, it'll put you to sleep because his exhaustion, it was so relatable. It because Russ, I've, I've, you know, driven eight to to 17 hours at a time. You're not even supposed to drive that far, um, after working all day.
And, and so it, obviously, it's not as dangerous as being in an airplane over the middle of the ocean with nowhere to land, but that combating your eyelids as, as they're, they're heavy. You just wanna sleep and then only getting three or four hours of sleep, uh, in very uncomfortable areas. And I won't spoil where you had to sleep, but you know, that experience to me was just reading about it.
I was like, I don't wanna be a pilot. Oh, so that's part of the abusive relationship you're talking about 'cause you love flying. But there were times. This was just the beginning of your story. I can imagine in, in the sequel some of the, this horror stories of flying, you can, you can share with us, but there are times where flying as much as you loved it, it was a, an awful experience.
You got the short end of the stick. Yes. And what I'm talking about abuse, I don't, I don't want to talk, I'm not talking about actually flying. Yes, there were hard parts. Okay. And trying to stay awake over the ocean was difficult. Um, yeah. But what I'm talking about is, um, the relationship between airline management and employees, the unions, the strikes, the turmoil, the, the, the lousy schedules.
The, okay. You know, the fatigue. Would you say there is toxic leadership in a poor work, uh, command climate? Say that again. Would, would you describe it as, because we talk all the time on the show, uh, especially in the military, about two things. Toxic leadership, and that's just leaders who. For example, you're talking about the scheduling sucks.
And I had leaders in the military where we could have had a better schedule and they said, Hey, you don't have it worse than I did. I don't care. You know, or they're, they, it seems like they're purposefully trying to make this schedule bad, because I'm sure there was times, as a pilot, you, you were like, well, you know, flying this, this, and there would make more sense than doing this, that, and that.
Um, but you know, you only have so much power. And, and when I say command climate, just like the interactions between all the pilots and the management, you know, was it kind of different depending where you were and, and how did that affect you? And did it kind of deter you from wanting to be a pilot? You talk about did you wanna start over and the reason you were, you didn't was because of the, you didn't wanna start over, you know, financially and, and, and from the bottom again, it was almost like a, a chain to you.
Yes, I would say that the abuse was primarily systemic. Hmm. Um, the, the airline pilots and the management would hash out contracts, um, which was always a tumultuous time when Yeah, when we were developing new contracts, new work rules, et cetera. But it was just the, I think the relationships between management and employees made, made the work environment toxic to a degree.
Now you mentioned that, you know, pilots, airline pilots only have so much control, and I guess that's true, but whenever there was a, um, question of safety, I was, if I made decisions, I was never questioned by management. I never got a phone call. Okay. From upper management about what I had done. Now, I, in my entire career, I, I got a handful of, not less than a handful, one or two times management would call to get more information about something that had happened, right?
But, um, that was generally personnel related. But I was never questioned on making a, a command decision, a decision for safety. That's one thing that the three airline managements that I worked for without ever changing jobs, through mergers, uh, never questioned about, about that. So that was, that's a good thing.
That's part of the system that, that really worked. They trusted you to do your job. I trusted every captain on the line to do his job. And, you know, being human, sometimes people would get into, get into trouble and, you know, they'd have to take it from there. But fortunately in my career, uh, everything seemed to work out okay.
You know, there was pressure. There was pressure. Sometimes I remember being on, um. Guam. One day when we were leaving to go back to Tokyo, we had a, um, a tropical storm rolling through and it was a named tropical storm, and the wind was blowing such that we were right on the edge of, of having a maximum crosswind.
I mean, just within, wow. It was right on, like, I think the max cross wind was 45 knots. We were at 44 knots blowing across the runway. Right. You know, it was a tropical storm and one runway was closed. The nearest Air Force base, um, Anderson Air Force Base had closed down and they had even sent the crash, fire and rescue people home.
So the closest airport that I had available to me that was open was Tokyo. 1500 nautical miles away. Right. I didn't think of prudent to take off in a jet and have the nearest airport be that far away. Uh, I, I, so I called the, um, dispatchers. Back in the States, I said, Hey, we're gonna delay until it looks better.
They said, well, what's wrong? You don't need a take off, alternate. And they were right as far as the weather, the visibility was, was good enough. I did not legally need a take off alternate. Anyway, they questioned that decision. They said, well, you know, um, uh, you know, made several calls. They finally said, well, they want you to, uh, take off and go.
I said, well, I don't know who they are, but I'm here and they're there. So we're gonna wait until it's safe to go. Right. I said, as soon as, as, as it was, I said, as soon as Sipan opens up that I could land there, that's a, that's a safe alternate, a case. I lose an engine on takeoff. I can't return to Guam because say a palm tree is blown across the runway, I need another airport to go to.
So that was it. You know, they, they were trying to pressure me over the phone, but ultimately it was like that, well, we'll leave when, you know, we're, when I'm ready to leave. That's how it worked out. So that's an example of, oh. Captain Authority is actually, uh, put in, put in place. Right. And so before we wrap things up here, what I want to give you the opportunity to do is, you know, you mentioned some conflicts and you said, Hey, you know, just saying the next three years of my life, flying airlines is, is kind of boring.
So in anticipation for your next book, can you kind of tease us a little bit, what kind of conflicts and kind of, uh, of, you know, plot situations can we expect for that excitement? Well, stories like that one about, um, you know, about the Guam Tropical storm, that that would be an example Yeah. Of interpersonal relationships.
The good ones. The bad ones. I am going to, I'm toying with the idea of having a section and I'm gonna. Put this in bold, the outliers, the people that maybe don't quite fit in the airline industry, but there's, they're there nonetheless. And you've seen those in the Navy. It's like, oh yeah. Some, some odd characters.
It's like, how did you get here? Why are you here? And how did this, why are you, why are you allowed to make these kind of decisions? And you're still here. Yes. That, that, that's a big one. Which you've seen many times, I'm sure. Oh yeah. Yes. So that, but I'm going to put that in bold because those people represent less than 1% when you're talking about pilots.
It would be less than, less than 1% of the total. So we have to make, they're the ones you remember though. They're the ones we remember. And somebody who was it wrote that, uh, oh, I know who it was. It was the guy who wrote res life, REZ Res Life about, uh, living up in, I think the, I think he was an Ojibwe Indian, but he's, he wrote that the exceptions, um, illustrate.
The, the rule better than writing about normal day-to-day everyday people. It's the exceptions that really laser beam, uh, what we're talking about, about, you know, the counterpoint to, to the good things. So I, I don't know how I can write it without putting those outliers in. Uh, so I think that'll be included.
I'm gonna write about the, uh, my mentors, the people that, um, the people that taught me to, uh, to operate in the airline environment, the good people. And I'm also gonna do what you talked about, or you mentioned that, uh, in the, the first book, you know, you felt like you were flying along, which is great.
What I'm gonna try to do is put you into the first officer seat of an international flight between. Um, Holland and India, for example. Okay. And try to make it to feel somebody who's never flown before. Somehow they, they appear in the seat. Now we're going to, we're gonna hopefully have you a feel, have you feel it, what it's like, and, and educate you gently on the things maybe you don't under, I don't want to get too far into the woods on the technical stuff.
Yeah. Because you're not the first guy to mention. It was kind of like, left you kinda like, what do I do with this? You know? Let's move to the next chapter. Yeah. So I, I've gotta kind of go easy on that, but, uh, yeah. And, and it depends, like, I love some of the stuff like, you know, you had a compass malfunction and you, you know, you took it out and you filled it with, with jet fuel and I was like, this is like, I, you know, having been an operator and, and getting a degree in nuclear engineering technology, like I love that mechanical stuff.
So I think it's cool. But I was like, if I was a young woman or a man, you know, reading this and I was like, I don't know, you're talking about these. All these needles and gauges. Um, but I think it was important too because it shows how much knowledge you have to have as a pilot. You know, people think you just go up there, you hit autopilot, and you're just sitting there getting paid big bucks and, you know, they need to understand.
And that's why I also loved, you know, you run through all these what if scenarios, you know, when you're doing your pre-flight check and you're sitting down, you're just, like you said in, in, in that qualm story, you're like, what if I need to land? Mm-hmm. And I can't, you know? So I think those are so important.
And, you know, we've seen a lot of airline incidents where, you know, obviously people didn't think through ahead of time. And, and so Russ, have you ever had to make an emergency landing? Or, or, or any huge bad scenarios that we can look forward to reading about. There'll be a couple of, uh, stories. Okay. Like that.
Yeah. There'll be some, there'll be some, some high adventure in there. And then also the awesome. Yeah. Now your deal for that, you were, you were on the ship, were you on a Nimitz class? I was on Summer Marine for a little bit, but then I spent most of my time on an aircraft carrier. And that actually ties into, I was gonna ask you, so I saw in your bio that, you know, you had some sailing days and, and you mentioned that.
Is that gonna be a separate book in your book or is that just a story, a chapter of your life that is just kind of there it for right now. It's just kind of there. Okay. Um, I, I did a lecture, I'm waiting for that. I did a lecture, um, uh, uh, uh, slideshow really around the country of our trip, uh, over the Canadian Arctic on the Northwest Passage week.
We, uh, sailed in the wake of Gerald Amundsen's first successful Northwest passage. So I did that and putting that story together, I, I've told that story. So I'm not sure that, uh, that sailing will be something I get time to address. You know, I'm not, uh, uh, I'm not the youngest guy anymore. I'm not sure I'll have time to, to write, uh, every, every chapter.
But, uh, you know, we'll address that. Uh, we'll address, uh, we'll address the airline for sure, is what I meant. And there's a couple other books I have in mind and, uh, I don't know if we'll do the sailing thing or not. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I, I, at least looking forward to the, to the aviation and, and do you have a name for it?
'cause I'm thinking it's gonna be relearning to find, you know, something like that. The name right now is called Working Title Book two. Nice. Nice. We'll, uh, we'll, we'll release the name closer to when the project's done and we, uh, we see what we actually have there. Yeah, you're welcome to use Relearning to Fly.
You unlearn to fly and, oh, now I'm a pilot. Not gotta relearn to fly, you know, but, uh, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you for the suggestion, Ru. I gotta see, um, you know, looking on camera here, you're not wearing glasses, but that was a big conflict in, in the first book you wrote. So what happened with that? Are you just not wearing them or.
A bunch of things happened over the years, as, as we learned in the first book, um, airline pilots, uh, 1960s, right? Fifties, sixties, had to be steely, jawed and vi. Uh, Chuck, uh, Chuck Yeager writes about being able to see over the horizon and through mountains. That's the kind, it's an exaggeration of course, but it's Yeah, of course.
Um, that's, that's what was expected. You had to be physically perfect. You had to razor sharp eyes. Well, I didn't get the memo on that until later. And, uh, when I was 12 or so, I needed glasses and wore glasses. And then one day I learned that, guess what? You're not gonna get hired with with glasses. Yeah.
Crushed my entire dream. Well, oh yeah, obviously. Uh, I did wear glasses. I did become an airline pilot. Later they developed something called lasik, which was very nice. Yeah. So, uh, so got it, got rid of the glasses eventually. And you know, you mentioned it throughout the book. I mean, it's mentioned a lot, you know, people were like encouraging you and then you would end it with, but they don't realize that.
Do they not know airline pilots have can't wear glasses or you kind of felt like people were just humoring you at some point. But I think it's great that they encouraged you. I think it's great that you didn't give up despite your glasses because eventually that changed and, and so my message to everyone, you know, I is like you mentioned, waiting for the right time.
You know, your father kind of gave up too early. You could have given up at any point and been like, and if you had given up at a young age because of the glasses, you wouldn't have had the experience to then get hired when you could have glasses. And so I just want to emphasize that point to everyone.
Super point. Very good point. You're absolutely right. I mean, I did have the opportunity to, you know, I got into radio broadcasting. Uh, I. In high school and did that for a number of years. Yeah. Full time and part time. And I could have done that. I know I could have been successful in furthering that career, so I did have something else I could do, but boy, I'm sure glad I, I kept returning to my primary dream, you know, don't give up on your dreams because, uh, sometimes while they might be dormant, you know, you never know when they might come to fruition.
Yeah. My, my dad, he gave up, he gave up on his dreams. Oh. You know, whether that was a product of his addictions or, or what, I don't know. Maybe the way he was raised, um, coming. Yeah, his father was an alcoholic as well, so, uh, you know, who knows? Children of alcoholics have different ways of, of, uh, looking at things.
Yeah. You mentioned your tough background. Yeah. And, and that's why, you know, you mentioned people say, well, hey, you, you want to be an airline pilot, you know, fly because that's what your dad was into, but. A lot of times when people have parents that, you know, or not the best relationship with their parents, like for example, I don't wanna be anything like my dad.
You know, and that could translate over to career. You could have been like, you could have taken your dad as an example of what pilots were, but luckily you looked at pilots in television, in, in magazines and all this, and you were like, that's what a real pilot is. And you know, my dad hasn't gotten there yet.
He gave up on that. But I want to, you know, do it. And, and the, the, the, the end of the book kind of hurts too, because it's almost like your dad was too ashamed of himself to be proud of you. It is kind of how it came off, you know? Mm-hmm. Because instead of saying, you know, congratulations son, I'm so glad that you, you, you know, you've, you've become a, a true pilot.
He kind of just says, I didn't think you were gonna make it. Yeah. And, you know, it's kind of like a joke, but I think on some levels, it, it wasn't a joke. I mean, you, you address it a little bit in the book. I mean. How do you feel about that? I mean, it's almost like he was too ashamed of himself, embarrassed to, to admit pride in you, which as a father, admitting pride in your son is, is nothing to be ashamed about.
No matter whether you're, you're a failure or a success. You know, when your children, if they surpass you, you should be proud of them. And, and how do you feel about that, Russ? I think he was, I think he was happy and I think he was proud. He came from a generation of, of men that didn't, uh, emote. Yeah. Uh, you know, kind of keep our emotions kind of hidden.
Yeah. So there was, there was that, and I think you're right. I think he may have realized that he could have fulfilled his dream as well. It is possible. 'cause I don't think he was being mean when he said that. He never thought that I would make it. Okay. I think because of things like my glasses, I think of things like, uh, the Roberts, uh, men.
My dad, a family curse. His father never made their dreams, never, never hit the mark. And he, I don't know, he probably felt, uh, that, that Robert's men just don't make it. Um, it's not something that's realistic. You know, I, I, I mentioned the book several times. One of his favorite expressions was speaking to me was, you're heading for a fall.
Yeah. You know, everything I did, he was always expecting me to fall. It was, it was a, mm-hmm. It was insulting, first of all, it was meant to be, but it was also, uh, you know, watch out for your expectations because they're gonna be dashed, you know? Yeah. Don't, don't dream. Kind of don't have a dream that's gonna be dashed.
Yeah. He was like programming a generational curse into you almost. Yes. Absolutely. No, you're absolutely right about that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a lot to it, you know, we, uh. You can't really jump into somebody's head to figure out what's going. I don't who the, the, uh, Michael Poland wrote a book recently, the last five years or so about, uh, he said if we were able to jump into somebody else's head, we'd wig out because it would be like being on LSD it'd be such a wild place to be.
We couldn't stand a whole different world, a completely different universe. Yeah. So I really can't, you know, I can, I can, I can, uh, guess at what my dad was thinking, what was going on. Right. But really get into his head, uh, yeah. Not gonna happen. Yeah. And, and you know, one of the things I'll address here real quick is your father became a Jehovah's Witness, very devoted to it.
And he always said, you were too smart. 'cause you would ask questions, you would have biblical proof stating otherwise. And I, I love that he, he. Almost expressed this mindset of just like blindly follow people. Yes. And, and you know, I don't know if he was telling you that to keep you safe or if he was afraid of, you know, because you were smart and because you had that leadership in you, you know, he was afraid of, of what that could be.
I mean, 'cause there, it, it was mentioned a few times in the book, both in your childhood and later on in life. He says, you're, you're too smart for your own good. You know, stop asking questions. Well, he said was trying to figure stuff. The quote, the quote is one of his other favorite expressions. You know, one was, you're heading for a fall.
The other one right. Is you are too smart to learn. Yeah. That was it. That's what he would say. You know, you just don't, you, you're not accepting the, the, uh, you're not accepting the party liner. You're not accepting what we're teaching you. You know? Hmm. Yeah. And, uh, I just read this morning in a great book, uh, harra wrote, uh, Eagle Harra Harari, it's called, uh.
Um, homo Deus, it's his sequel to Sapiens, and he was writing about the di difference between religion and spirituality. Religion is the party line. Religion is the, um, is the, the set of laws, the set of rules to live by we're spirituality. Okay. He said it's always an individual path, you know, and that's the hard one.
He said Martin Luther followed his spiritual path. Yeah. And, well, what's wrong with the, what's wrong with the Catholic church? How is it that the, this was an example in the book, how, right, how is it that the pope can, can, uh, forgive your sins by the payment of money, right. These kind of things. And he, Martin Luther came up with the 95 things that he was saying, this is what's wrong with the Catholic church.
Right. Nailed it on the wall of the church. And, but after a while, I. Protestantism, the became a set of rules again, it be, yeah. From going to a spiritual path. It became a, uh, ironic, it became a, a religious set of, uh, you know, edicts, et cetera. And that's that same thing that by extension, that's, we do that on a personal level too.
Um, right. You know, I had my own path and my father had all these, he had it all worked out for me. Here's what's gonna happen. You're too smart to learn. You're heading for a fall. Here are the rules here. You know, so give up on, don't expect your, your individual dreams to ever go anywhere. Yeah. What do you think about that?
Does, does that sound like rings? True? So, it's interesting because I had an episode that by the time this episode would come out, it'll already be out. So, so check it out. It was with Mr. Brian Rebar, and he's written a bunch of books and one of them was called Escaping Religion Prison, and he and I brought it up and talked about it.
And we talked about a couple things. One, how you know, people are so quick to judge a religion based on one individual they meet. And what I say is this, I put it this way, I said, you know, let's say Elon Musk and SpaceX, you know, that was the example I used. If you met some employee who worked at SpaceX and, and they were stupid or, or, or rude, you know, you wouldn't think, well, that must be how Elon Musk is because his employee is.
But when people meet a Christian who is a sinner or arrogant and not biblically versed, they immediately think that's what God and the whole religion is. And you know, Mr. Strau grew up where he had to have, he couldn't ride a bicycle on certain days. He had to have like the rims on his tires inside out because otherwise it was idolatry, right?
So, you know, he talks about stuff like that, or facing a certain way, but you could do stuff, uh, in your, in the house on, on a Sabbath day or in the, in, in the backyard because no one could see you. You know, they said if the neighbors can't see you, you know, guy who can't see you. So. We talk about the, the reason I bring it up is 'cause you know, your father always said you were too smart to learn to just blindly follow.
I said, when it comes to these religions, you know, religious prisons, we almost call them. I said, and, and when it comes to judging other religions, I do not want to hear judgment from a anyone who has never read the Bible. 'cause if you ha haven't read the Bible, how are you gonna judge a religion? Because the people aren't representations of, of the religion.
Right. People take their own version of, of, of anything. Right? In life, you, we all process information differently. And so unless, how can you judge God? The only way you can judge God I is by reading the Bible. Right. Because that's his word. That's what he said. That's who he is. And you know, the people who act on his behalf, a lot of times, a lot of them aren't acting on his behalf.
And so that's just a perspective I want to bring up again, you know? 'cause your father said you're too smart to learn. No, you actually read. The scripture or thought about things. And, and so I don't think you were too smart to learn. I think you were too smart to be just blindly led on, and I'm not saying Jehovah Witnesses are wrong, they had their interpretation of the Bible.
But I think, you know, there's certain things you can, you can question, which you bring up in the book, which I think are some great points. And so, yeah, there's, I like what you said about there's, you know, the individual religious journey and then there's the groups, the laws and all that. And, and I'm a big advocate for everyone having their own individual journey with God.
You know? 'cause I, I did grow up Catholic. There's a lot of Catholic traditions I don't agree with because they're, they're manmade. They, they, they're made by humans and you know, they're not biblical. And so my journey of God has, I've grown so close with God because I have taken away, I've stepped out of the community.
Now I'm saying community is important, don't get me wrong. Jesus said, wherever two or more of you're gathered, I will be there. Also, it's important to have community. That's what religion and, and humans are meant to be. But everyone should take a step back and kind of go on that solo journey with God too.
Even if you're an atheist, I think it's important for you to read the Bible one. It's a good book, full of wisdom, but two, it'll really educate you. And I'm not saying atheists are uneducated, but I'm saying when you encounter people who are acting or speak on behalf of a religion, never ever take those people as representatives of that, you know?
Because I think religion is an individual journey, and I think you should, you know, kind of have that representation of it through yourself and your studies and what you find and, and what's your opinion on that, Russ, especially having encountered the Jehovah Witnesses and how that ties in. Yeah, I, I, I would say going back to what we mentioned earlier, religion is the, is the set of rules and the dictum and a spiritual journey as something else.
So that's your own I. Right. Your own questioning, your own truth, that's revealed to, you know, I love what, uh, Joseph Campbell wrote. Are you familiar with Joseph Campbell, a late, uh, professor of mythology and comparative religion at Sarah Lawrence College? Probably not sir. I, I kind of recognize the name and I might be familiar with his work, but I can't give you anything off the top of my head.
Years ago, I think the late eighties, he and Bill Moyers, uh, did a, uh, set of documentaries on mythology. Okay. And it's a wonderful thing. One thing he talked about Joe Campbell, was the masks of God. Mm. How can, how can we describe the infinite? How can we, how, how can we, right. How can we talk? How can we put that into words?
How can we even put the infinite into thought? Well, humans have done that according to Joseph Campbell, by, by developing masks. The Okay, the thing, the thing that we describe, it's how human beings. Describe the infinite. And so there are a thousand different, there were an unlimited number of ways we can, as humans can, to make this mask say, this is an image of God.
Well, this is an image of God. Right. You know, and you talk about the Bible. There's also the other, uh, texts to, to Right. Read and study the UADs from India. There, the Yeah. Koran, uh, you know, the writings of, uh, histories that come down to us from the Meso Americans. I mean, so many Oh yeah. So many stories that are written to describe, to describe the God, to describe the creator, the, the, you know.
Right. The infinite. The infinite. Oh yeah. Right. So that's the way, that's one thing that Jehovah's Witness experience gave me was I. Hmm. You know, I'm not, uh, their, their major tenet was that they're gonna live, you know, they're gonna sur survive the last battle and then the faithful. Right. Jehovah's Witnesses are gonna live forever as human beings on earth.
Only a few of them. Uh, from, from what I read in read in your book, there was a select group of say people that was only like 144,000 or something like that. Yeah. They were actually gonna go to heaven. Right, right. But, uh, human beings, there were an unlimited number of humans as long as they were Jehovah's Witnesses who were going to survive and live on Earth forever.
In a human body. And I had trouble with that one starting out at seven years old, you know? Right. What about our teeth? You know, are we gonna rego our teeth? Uh, our ears and nose keep growing? Are we gonna look like elephants? I mean, um, I had a little problem with that. That was the first, that's the first question I remember asking, you know, Hey, is this really, is this really true?
Yeah. So it allowed me, it gave me permission to start asking questions. And so that's why over the decades, I've, I've read the Oad, I've, you know, one of the joys of going to India was be able to go and see their, you know, representations of their mythology. So it's opened me up, you know, and it, right, it's opened up a, it's opened up a universe of, of spirituality that I don't think would've been available to me had I bought into the singular teachings.
You know? And you know, what was so interesting to me was Jehovah Witnesses believe in this Armageddon day that's coming and, and all of that. And. You know, I'm religious and I believe in rapture and the second coming in Jesus Christ. But they kind of drop everything to just, they just devote their lives to preparing for that.
And I'm not saying we shouldn't prepare for the rapture spiritually, but I think giving up on our dreams, our, our, our jobs, our families, I don't think that's the way to go about it. You know? And that's kind of, and you kind of mentioned it in your book a couple times that your, your dad was just preparing for this doomsday that was gonna eventually come, you know, and you kind of gave up on everything else for, for that.
And I think it's important to prepare for the future, but I think also just no longer living life in preparation for it is, is not the way to go. It would seem not, I mean, you know, the 1914 was the first, uh, prediction of Armageddon by the Jehovah's Witnesses. Well that didn't happen 10 years ago now rejiggered the formula and you know, and they, I don't know.
I haven't been, I. You know, I haven't been associated with the JE witnesses since I was, you know, essentially 12 years old. So I don't know what the current teaching is, or I, I don't know what the amendments, but, you know, all religions, you know, it's be, it's, I think the one fundamental thing we have to think about is not mistaken the, the map for the territory, right?
We take a, a religious teaching and we we're looking at it again, it's kind of like the mask of God. It's a description, you know? Right. We're looking at the map and when we think, oh, this map is the actual reality of this situation, we're, we're not looking out the window and seeing the, the world that the map represents.
And I think the lot of that goes with the, you know, we lock into the religious teachings. Um, oh yeah. Well. Ladies and gentlemen, as we approach the runway here, just to put it for, for you to humor you, Russ, you know, as we usually we're on the submarine, I guess this episode, we're in the airplane. But yeah, so as we approach the runway here with a safe landing, hopefully, you know, is there anything, captain Roberts, that you'd like to, uh, end us with?
Any advice or any takeaways or anything you'd like to say, or you think we covered it all? Well, I wanna talk about you a little bit and I didn't. Okay. Yeah. I assumed that you were always on the carrier. Um, but the submarine thing that's I grew up with, thank you. Uh, run silent, run deep, and, uh, all the submarine picture.
I, I just, in my, I love the story of submarines and thanks. And I really admire the, some of the smartest people in the, uh, that join the military. They don't think everyone keeps telling me, I gotta watch das, uh, DOS boot. I haven't, I haven't watched it yet. Everyone keeps telling me, they're like, you have to watch that, that you have to watch that.
So which one is that? It's da I believe it's about a German Oh yeah. In book. Yeah, I know. Hey, you have to see that. That's a good one. There's, yeah, there's really terrific submarine movies and they're all so dramatic. And golly, you think about it, you know, you under the, under the water with all that pressure and the isolation and Oh man, if you don't write a book about your experience and maybe a novel, you know, there you go.
You know, I, I almost subed Foley and, uh, one because it got you, you know, I could be stationed in Hawaii, which I always wanted, you know, um, or right here in Kings Bay, Georgia. But the thing is, the reason I chose aircraft carrier was just because the sunlight, the, the, the workload, the community, it, it's just the lifestyle.
I prefer. It's funny, my, my old roommate, we call him King on this show. This is hilarious. He could not swim. He didn't know how to swim. Right. Most Navy men don't and women don't know how to swim, believe it or not. Right. It's ironically created Captain Cook. Captain Cook didn't know how to swim and that's why he was, uh, killed by the Hawaiians.
If he'd just been able to swim out to the boat. All the guys were out there. Come on, captain Swim on. I don't know how to swim. Yeah. It's, it's, it's ironic. That's how always, so the tradition continues in the modern Navy too. Most people don't know how to swim. Huh? Well, it, it is funny. A lot of aviation people are scared of heights, you know?
Absolutely. But they're like ly because I'm in a enclosed vessel. I'm, I'm not scared of heights. I I've heard that a lot too. I don't know if I, I assume you're not afraid of heights. I'd have to assume that my, when I lean over, uh, you know, a high building and look straight down, my knees get weak. That's so funny.
Yeah. So there is some, there is some, you know, notice at least of heights, but in the airplane it's completely different experience. Oh yeah. Why that is? I don't know. Somebody needs to explain that, that that's how my dad was though. He was like, he didn't really like heights, but if you put him in a helicopter or a Ferris wheel, if he was enclosed in, he was fine.
But bringing it back to my roommate, he didn't know how to swim, so he purposely chose the submarine. He goes, aircraft carrier gets attacked or something. I might end up in the water. I don't wanna drown the submarine. Anything happening to that, boom, I'm already dead. And he goes, and if it starts flooding, he goes, I got a thing of strawberry bleach.
I carry on me at all times, so I'm not gonna drown. I'm, I'm gonna have that strawberry flavored bleach, my favorite flavor. You know, that was his plan. That was his emergency survival plan, was he was gonna get like strawberry flavoring and added a bleach into, uh, I was So, get himself before the water does.
Yeah. Well, the carrier, you know, you're out there, you got plenty of sunshine and all that. There's just that little thing of launching those airplanes right over your head, round the clock. Must have been a little wearing on you. I, I remember we got, um, there was a, a jet that got onto our, our, our ship. And I remember they, they, they, they had it tied down there and no one was around and me and the sand and my former unofficial co-hosts, we were just, I was like, dude, it's just sneaking like no one's, but we, we didn't, 'cause it would be so much trouble, but I was like, I want to go sit inside this jet.
That's so cool. And you know, it, it is dangerous too. We've seen videos of where the, the cable, you know, they got the giant cables on the ship snap and it just goes back and cuts people in half, breaks their legs and everything. Like respect for the people who work on the aviation deck, you know, it's, it is not an easy job.
It's, it, it is dangerous. And do they still call those guys Skittles? I don't know. I haven't heard that term before. That's pretty funny. All the different colors, you know, ask my aviation buddies all the different colors of the guys out on the deck. Yeah. What an operation. I know what you're talking about now.
Okay. Yeah. So it's funny you mentioned that when they started doing aviation testing and, and flying on, on my ship. 'cause we were in a shipyard for a while. I was in the galley with homewrecker and all the aviation people. There was people in purple, people in green and yellow. I was like, what the hell is this?
So you used to Skittles. That's, that makes so much sense. At first I was like, Skittles what it had to do. Yeah. They all wear different colors up there, but you know, that's safe. That's smart. You know? Yeah. I was lucky to be able to go out on the Teddy Roosevelt Theor, uh, Roosevelt a couple of times on, uh, fam trips and, you know, they did some launches and some traps right there and some supersonic flybys and That's awesome.
It was great. I've, yeah, I, I really regret not having a, a Navy career. I would've loved to be in a naval aviator. Wow. Wow. Or a submarine guy. Both of those things. So, uh, you know, you got to serve on both carriers and submarines. So, which can you name which ship you were on? I was on the, the CVN seven three USS, George Washington.
So my experience was very unique because that ship is seven years behind schedule because of mass suicides and COVID basically, you know, the shipyard process wasn't supposed to take that long. Yes. But when COVID hit, you know, the military had, I mean, it was its own system of, of dealing with COVID because long after masks were removed, uh, for the civilian war, they weren't mandatory.
They still were mandatory for the military. Hmm. Uh, which makes sense. You always want the military to be ready. Right. Civilians like, all right, if, if they're not feeling it good, it's whatever. If a, another country attacks, but you want your military at the top of their game. But I hated that. I hated wearing a mask.
I, I would, you know, I wouldn't have worn one if I wasn't forced to. And, you know, it made it awful. It made everyone sleepy and agitated and, yes, ugh. And it, uh, it's insane to think that there was children who grew up and thought that was normal, that humans had always just worn masks. It, it, it, it really did.
And we just talked and I just launched, uh, with, uh, Steven Bar, a new show called, uh, generational Bridge Builders. And we, we discussed how COVID kind of changed everyone's life, regardless of whether you think it was a conspiracy or real, or how you personally feel about it. It did change. It kind of did force everyone to change their lives.
It did. It's gonna be a, you know, 20 years from now, it's gonna be a really illuminating thing to read the history books of, of this and, and that time of COVID and how it was all handled. And, yeah. How would you have handled it if you had been in the head of the CDC or World Health or even uh, uh, national Institute of Health?
What would you have done? How would you, it, it's so funny that you asked me this because in my college class. I got asked that question. I'm doing a paper on it right now because COVID is being used as a case study for colleges. Right. Because it was, I mean it's in my introduction to professional ethics class, we talk about more dilemmas, what to do as professionals, you know, the decisions we had to make as, as state and and government leaders between public health, civil liberties, that's the biggest one.
Public health versus civil li. Civil liberties. Because we even looked at other case studies in the past of anti-vaxxers and mm-hmm. And a lot of stuff in California, of course. But you know, and we always talk about, you know, individual freedom versus, well, you know, it, it's interesting how humanity has evolved to be this, like such a community where there's kind of the destruction of individualism.
You know, there's this mandatory vaccination policies, you know, 'cause they're like, well, you have to look out for everyone. But, but in the past it wasn't lookout for everyone. It was lookout for yourself. And I think it's interesting how we've become such a a, a community and I think it's great, but I think we need to make an area where people can be individuals.
You know, there's only so much off Griding a available, you know, I'm not saying anarchy, but there should be like a a, I make a city of individualism, you know? Uh, but as far as like the decisions, I believe that COVID wa was a biological weapon. I don't believe it was, it was God made, and I can't really speak on his behalf, but I don't think it was nature made.
You know, I think it was human engineered. And, and so the biggest thing for me is finding out who engineered it and, and why. And, and maybe I would know that, maybe I would say, Hey, it was me and my people if I was in charge, because that could be the case. It could have been America, it could have been China.
Um, I think there was a lot of exaggeration with it. I mean, there's a lot of, well, again, that's why it's gonna be interesting, you know, your Yeah. Your belief there. And that's why, you know, once the, the fog of war has finally cleared and yeah. Historians have a chance to write about it and in the, you know, in the clear, in the clearness of time, we'll, we may learn Exactly.
The evolution. Yeah. And that's what Steven said on our show. He said, um, what did he say? He said, only the, the big pharma and, and big government, they're the only people and only Pfizer really know what happened. And, and even then, it's maybe only the highest ups that, that know what went on with that as far as vaccinations.
I got into arguments with people because I said, it's just too soon. And people were trying to say, well, it's proven, this and that. I said, look, any new scientific experiment takes years of studying. And, and for me it's like, look it, when it comes to your body and your health, I. Then you, you really don't want something experimental going in there if, if it's not proven.
You know, even even vaccines that have existed for a while still have stuff that shows up new, new developments because everyone is different. You know, first off, it's hard to make a vaccine that's gonna affect everyone the same way every everyone's biology and DNA while it's the same on some level it's completely different.
We all have different responses. You know, there's people who got the vaccine and felt fine. There's people who got the vaccine and developed blood clots. There's people who got it and got terrible fever and, and, and were paralyzed. You know? And so I think my biggest issue if it was, was mandatory vaccination.
And I was forced to by the military. They basically said, if you don't get it, we're kicking you out. Yeah. And it, it was different for every base. My, my best friend, we talked about him, uh, on the last episode, basically. He was on hold for like a year and a half 'cause he refused to vaccinate and the military kept changing.
Whether they were immediately separating you, they were putting you on hold, they were gonna do this and that, whether it wa it was honorable or not. And so I wish, you know, I really regret, uh, getting the one shot that I had to get, I didn't get, was not getting boosters. I think that whole idea was, was really stupid, um, to have all these additional shots on top.
But, you know, and there's so many conspiracy theories, you know, my grandma believes it was just sugar water, you know, there wasn't an actual shot. So. Well, I have read, uh, I have, I, this is way above my pay grade and like I said, I'm gonna wait for the history books to come out, but I do, I have read recently, you know, something on the mRNA and it's been in development for a long, long time.
And, um, apparently according to the, the reading I've done, you know, they, it's just a matter of. Of the final tweaks to, we may be on the, on the edge of a revolution as far as, uh, vaccines go. I don't know. We'll see. Right. This, there's, according to the article articles I've read, you know, there's great promise, but we'll see.
Uh, you know, and I'm just gonna, um, yeah, I'm just gonna wait to see what the, what the book history books, right? Yeah, yeah. No, I'm, I'm definitely curious too, just seeing my generation and everyone who lived through COVID 40 years from now, if we all develop something, you know, or if something happens, because I we're the case study, I hate to say it, Russ, we're actually the case study for the future, you know, we're the, the Guinea pigs, so to speak.
Kind of, uh, yeah. Well, you never know. I mean, that's what's so interesting about moving into the future. See what, what happens. Yeah. But, uh, yeah, hopeful. I don't know. It's kinda like, you know, you talk about the individual versus the, the, the state, the overarching authorities, the religious, you know, or governmental or society, you know, it's the Luke Skywalker story.
It's, you know, follow the force, be an individual, Luke, while you're working within this framework of, right. In Luke's case, the, the rebel, uh, the rebel set up the, you know, the, uh, all the fighters and the hierarchy and that. But he, you know, that was the quest of the individual. And that's, that's the story.
That's it. That's the primary, that's the primary story. I mean, whether we're telling, writing a work of fiction, a novel, or a memoir like mine, it's still the story. You've gotta, it's that individual quest. And you can, what what it is, what is it to be an individual in this right complex human structure we've created.
Right. That's ever, that's ever changing. Always changing. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And, and ladies and gentlemen, check out the first episode of Generational Bridge Builders. We actually discussed Stephen and I, he had to go out of country. He had, he's a cancer survivor. He was, uh, sentenced to die pretty soon.
And the, uh, cure at the time was experimental. It was not FDA approved. And so the guy who actually saved his life got arrested. Um, and so we got into discussion of the, who is the government to tell me what medical procedures I can and not can or cannot get done, whether it's experimental or not proven or safe or not, it's my body, my choice.
If I want to take this risk to save my life from a cancer inside of me, you know what? Right? Do they have to tell me no? And so we kind of debate about that, and Steven's response was. It was pretty interesting, you know, and, and yeah, and the conclusion is, you know, the government, uh, we appreciate the government, you know, intervening in medical practices when there's negligence and, and, and, and mis practice and stuff like that.
But I think, you know, I don't think we should be forced to wait for the FDA or the government to approve, be like, Hey, this, this is okay. You know? Um, just because I, I think if, if it's going in your body and it's not affecting other people, because the slayer, and I had this discussion too, you can't buy cigarettes or alcohol or run a hotel room till you're like at least 21.
And we talked about how other countries have, you know, these younger ages where you can do that. And I said, well, look, why can't I buy cigarettes? Who is that affecting that, that's affecting me? So, hi. His argument was that, you know, alcohol shouldn't be allowed to be purchased until you're older because it can affect other people's lives.
Cigarettes should be, uh, ible for, for minors because hey, you know, you're aware or you should be made aware before you buy them of what you're putting in your body. But that's your body and that's your choice. But when it comes to drinking, because it can end another person's life because of drinking and driving and, you know, stuff like that, that's affecting society, then there should be a restriction on it.
But a hotel room, I guess it's, yeah, like, you know, that's, um, most like, obviously young men and, and women do get in trouble when with hotel rooms when they're, you know, younger. But at the end of the day, that's not affecting other people. But renting a car, not being able to rent a car until you're a certain age, that's gonna affect other people because you're driving on the road with other people.
So I think it's interesting how, you know, we want society to limit what we can do to each other, but not to ourselves. And, and the vaccine is kind of both, you know, it kind of falls in both that areas because it primarily affects us. Um, but it's something that could affect other people. Well, it's contagious.
The, the virus. The virus is contagious. And so how do, going back to that question, I, what would, what would you have done? How would you have handled it if you had been? Well, first of all, you and I are not educated to the point Yeah, yeah. Be of. But what would we did? We did some of this type of thing in the airline, of course, much smaller scale.
When we, uh, would have to make a, a choice about safety. We always tried to err on the most conservative side, the most, the mo the safest way to operate, you know, uh, yeah, of course we'd do something that's like 95% of the time. It would be fine if we operated with that, with that threat, but we weren't willing to take that chance.
We, we wanted to be as close to 100% safe as possible. Okay. And I kind of thought about that, you know, if I was in Fauci shoes or. Whoever in c, c or whatever, what choices would I have made? Would I want be close to, you know, again, close to a hundred percent or, or, uh, make choices to preserve people's liberty.
That over well, here, here's where I think Russ, because I, I, I get what you're saying. Yeah. Safety, but I'm gonna gesture to this giant American flag. Don't tread on me, behind me. Because here's the thing, then, if, if, if you're worried about what's out there, stay home. As simple as that. Don't force everyone to stay home.
If I wanna take the risk of getting sick and, and go out to wherever I want to go, that's my choice. Right? And I understand that the issue is, well, you may spread it to someone. Well, I'm only spreading it to someone else who is out there willing to take that risk. You know? So I think forcing it, it goes into this, I hate, I hate the one team, one fight mentality.
You know, they preach that in the Navy. I hate that. The one team, one fight, look. I do think it's one country wanna fight back on, on some level. Look, you can't tell everyone to stay home because one individual or a small group of individuals or a couple of states out of all the states wants, you know, to be cautious.
I think, look, if if you wanna stay home, stay home. All right there, there's Amazon Fresh and not a sponsor, but stuff like that would de deliver food to your house or whatever, or hunker down. But if I want to go out and, and go to the movies or mall still, and there's employees who still want to get paid and are willing to take that risk to be at the mall to sell me stuff, then that's that.
I wouldn't have restricted everyone's freedom. I would've said, look, if you want to get the vaccine to protect yourself, but here's something interesting that Steven said. He goes, the vaccine, and I don't know if this is true or not, he said Doesn't change your ability to transmit it or not. If you have COVID vaccinate it or not, and, and you give it to someone else.
That's how it works. The vaccine is to protect yourself from, from getting it, not from giving it to other people. That's true. And I guess if you Plenty of people virus. Yeah. If you have the virus in your nasal, you know, passages you're gonna spread. Yeah. It doesn't matter if you're vaccinated or not. In fact, there's plenty of people who were vaccinated and still got terribly sick people who were vaccinated and passed away.
And so I, I think one, the success rate of the vaccine is not the best. And two, you can still get, if you can still get COVID when you're vaccinated, you can still transmit COVID when you're vaccinated. And so vaccination isn't the protection of society and others, it's the protection of yourself primarily then.
And if the protection of yourself is the primary goal and result of the vaccine, then it is an individual choice, not the government's choice. Well, this is a wonderful philosophical discussion on, uh, thank individual rights versus societal, uh, protections. And, uh, it's something that, you know, we'll be talking about for a.
For decades to come, I'm sure. Oh, yeah, yeah. I know. We we're talking about flying airplanes and next thing you know, it's discussed in, uh, government versus, uh, individual, but Well, it's a lot about, you know, how do you keep people safe that are in your charge? You're, yeah, you're placed in charge of, of others, uh, safety and wellbeing and airplanes obviously is, you know.
Yeah. And I think two or 300 people, people, people wanna take the risk and, and fly on an airplane during COVID. That's, that's their choice, you know? Well, they're also putting the people back in the back, you know, two or 300 people are also putting themselves in your hands. They are assuming that the people that are operating it are going to protect them, and they don't really have to think about it.
They don't have to. And, and I think that's for the majority people, I don't think they feel like it's taking a chance because it's been proven over the decades to be a safe, reliable way of Oh yeah. I'm, I'm saying in terms of, of, of diseases and, and COVID, yeah. Obviously. If I'm getting in a plane, I expect the captain to know what he's doing.
But when it came to like the, the COVID, right? I'm not, if I get on a plane and I, I'm not gonna expect to not get COVID just because Captain Russell Roberts is flying and, and he knows what he's doing. He is an airline pilot that's out of your control. I trust you. That what, what's in your control to handle.
And I think, you know, whatever is outta your control, you know, like, like a virus spreading on, on your plane that's outta your control. Just like the water parks where COA spread and, and everyone got sick. I mean, at the end of the day, the water park it, I don't think it's at fault if someone snuck in or got past them sick, you know?
And sure maybe the water park should require, um, checking people to get into the water park. But look at it this way. You're going to the water park knowing that you're gonna be in a public water system with other people. And there's a chance that diseases will be transmitted if you go in a pool with children.
Let's look at it this way. Let's, let's compare COVID to, to children's urine, to, so to speak. If you go in a pool with kids and, and you're like thinking you have this mindset that there's no piss in the pool at all. That's wrong. And so it's like if you're gonna go out when, when there's, there's a virus and expect, well, everyone's gonna have the, the self-control to, to, you know, not be sick or go out when they're sick.
Look, it's like kids in the pool, they're just gonna pee all right. You know, and, and if you get into that water system expecting it to be perfectly fine, I mean, you're wrong. There's, there's two things that occur to me. One is to let, uh, Dar Darwinism just take, make its course, you know, don't, don't try to protect anybody from anything and survival of the fittest.
There's that. There's also, uh, our successful fight against smallpox, for example, and through vaccinations. Yeah. And good healthcare. We've. For all, you know, as far as we know, it's been completely eradicated on planet Earth, which has been a, uh, you know, it seems to me that's a benefit. So Uhhuh and everything in between, you know, so it, like I said, it's great philosophical discussion.
Where are we gonna go with this? How are we, you know, and, well, I'll give, give you my final statement. We have an immune system built into us. We have it for a reason, and I think we should use it and not disregard it. And I think we're making weaker and weaker humans. Well there, well, that there's that worthy of, you know, an worthy argument.
I mean yeah, we're, you and I are examples, we're, we're here, we're the end product of currently of the, you know, the 117 billion people who have ever lived on this planet. Yeah. Since people were people and, you know, and, uh, you know, and everything else that's alive now is a successful, we're, it's all here for a reason because of immunities being developed or, you know, safety protocols or, so it's a great discussion.
Yes, sir. Well, with that, ladies and gentlemen, that was your, you took away anything from that. I mean, I think that was a huge takeaway, but yeah. Here with Captain Russell Roberts and he has another book coming out. So before that comes out, make sure you read Unlearning to Fly, navigating the Turbulence and Bliss of Growing Up in the Sky.
It's a, it is a pretty good book. I, I enjoyed it. You know, you gotta read it. The ending will, will, will blow your mind. And Captain, you have anything for us? Well, M Mark whiskey, I appreciate, thank you. It was a really nice discussion of far ranging discussion and it's been a pleasure being with you. Yes, sir.
Thank you. And so, ladies and gentlemen, with that, we are, well what, what's the message you say when you, when you land the airplane besides, um, we're, we're, we'll be exiting soon. Is there like a, a, a thing you say when you land? Well, ladies and gentlemen, we've landed or what, what do you say? Roberts? Well, after we've landed, usually the flight attendants are the ones to talk, but, uh Oh, okay.
Yeah. So, but uh, yeah, it's been nice, uh, nice being with you. Real, real pleasure. Come, come travel with us again.
