Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple of Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and today I am here with Mr. David Nathanson. Mr. Nathanson, go ahead and introduce yourself for us please.
Thank you. Appreciate that. So, uh, as you said, David Nathanson, um, I guess the reason we're talking today is I spent my entire adult life, uh, in the Marine Corps, both as an officer enlisted, uh, went in at 17 and I retired at 52, so quite a bit of time, um, in uniform.
Uh, currently retired to beautiful Fort Worth, Texas. Uh, I live here on my, uh, my little ranch with, uh, my bride of seven months, two pit bulls and two cats.
Wow. Well, congratulations on, that's a recent marriage then. Congrats on that.
It is very, uh, very fortunate to get a second chance at happiness and very confident that this one is gonna go a lot better than the first one.
Well, yeah, well, you know, you know how it is. If you're in the military, you have to have at least a one bad marriage. Seems to be a prerequisite for a lot of us. Um, we talk about that a lot on the show, especially, um, you know, the younger guys who get married, you know, as their first year in, they, they meet someone and it's all about the money, you know, never get married for money.
That's, that's some key advice I can give as a young man. But, yeah, so first off, Texas, beautiful area and, you know, I visited there just recently, but yeah, Marine Corps. So what the, the first thing I wanna start with is, and we discussed this on the, uh, previous episode actually, which was everyone, at least in once in their life, has the thought of, I'm gonna be what they call a for lifer.
I'm gonna stay in and do the 20 years. But a lot of people end up not following through. So for you, what kept you going, especially with all the obstacles you probably encountered both as a leader and. From leadership above you, what kept you going to do that much time?
That's a great question, and one that I got asked a lot, particularly by younger Marines.
The older I got, you know, young Marines would ask, you know, Hey sir, why do you continue to serve at this point? Um, and I would tell you. Some of it was what, hopefully your viewers understand when I say just that, uh, that huddling up feeling, right? So you get at the line of scrimmage and you huddle up with the team and you've got, you know, a, a play ahead of you.
That feeling of belonging to a high performing team, that comradery that, that brother and sisterhood, just that feeling of, of belonging and doing something, you know, bigger than self is, you know, really the thing that kind of kept me going, um, you know, and I'll be honest with you, it is also the thing that caused the most trauma when I actually had to retire, was losing that brotherhood and sisterhood and that feeling of belonging and losing a little bit of your identity along the way.
But for me, it, it truly was, and I know it's a maybe an old fashioned perspective, but you know, I just woke up every morning. And felt very pri privileged to be, you know, serving in our armed forces, you know, to wear that uniform and to just have an opportunity to do something that was bigger than self.
Um, and that's really the, the simple truth. I mean, there wasn't anything else. Certainly didn't stay for the money, could have made a lot more money in the civilian world, you know, certainly didn't stay for the stability. You know, I averaged one move every, uh, every two or three years over the course of 34 years.
And, uh, yeah, I, I stayed because, uh, I kind of believed in what I was doing.
Wow. Well, thank you for that. And like you said, it kind of is an old fashioned thing because from my personal experience being of the younger generation and what I witnessed in my bootcamp division alone was the reason why people join the military.
And there's currently a recruiting crisis, in fact. But the reason people are joining isn't this patriotic feeling. It's not this something bigger than myself. I wanna serve my country. It's a. I want money. I want the military to pay for college. It's job stability. And, or I had, like I always discuss, uh, one of the guys in my bootcamp division, he said, I wanna own my own strip club and the military is a good way to rack up the money for that.
And another guy wanted a restaurant where he had, um, you know, drugs infused into all the food and he was gonna open it in Canada. But yeah, not a lot of the, uh, proud patriotic Americans, which is really unfortunate. Now, one of the things I heard the most, uh, because I did think about doing 20 years, I thought about it a lot and it was actually something I really wanted to do.
One of the things when I encountered a lot of difficulties in the military was my mentors would always say, stay in and be the change that you wanna see. So, Mr. Nathanson, did you stay in to try and enact the changes that you want to see? And were you successful in that, or do you kind of feel like. The way a lot of us younger, uh, soldiers and sailors feel is that no matter how high we get, there's always gonna be someone saying no, and we'll never be able to enact that change.
Or do you disagree? Do you feel like you can, uh, make the changes as long as you put in the work and the time?
I mean, it's certainly not an environment where it's easy to affect change. Right. And I think that's a good thing because if the military changed on the dime, you know, every week, what, uh, what would that speak to?
Readiness and stability and the ability. To do what it's asked to do by the country. But, but I would say, you know, I heard the same thing from my mentors and, and later on in life, I would tell people too, Hey, if all the good ones leave, the only one left is gonna be the crappy one. So, um, you know, I did try to be a change agent wherever I went.
I would tell you that, you know, the most important thing for me, uh, was to make sure that my men and women were taken care of and their needs were being met. Um, and sometimes there were hard conversations with the young folks because there's a difference between, you know, needs and wants and having mature conversations about what did you really need as opposed to what did you want.
And then the also the notion of, you know, care versus carry, uh, definitely wanted to make sure the Marines knew how much I cared, but I wasn't gonna carry them. I mean, they had to hold up their end of the bargain. Um. So, yeah, I mean, part of why I stayed was, was if I left and there were only bad ones, uh, left and the young Marines would have to deal with, with bad leadership.
And I just, I just, I guess I couldn't see myself, you know, doing that. Um, I think I was successful in, in making local change units, uh, where I could have decision making authority over. Definitely, I tried for it to be the most positive experience for all involved. Again, you make sure you take care of their personal professional development.
Um, nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care. And so I just kind of focused on those things and when it got bad. Um, when felt like, you know, the, the higher ups, no matter what you tried to do, would come up with a, a policy that just didn't make sense or you just fundamentally disagreed with.
Again, I would ask myself this question, is the unit better off with me or without me? And, you know, nine times outta 10, I concluded it was better with me. So I kind of just stayed the course. Um, not easy. Uh, and it wasn't easy. When I was younger, I was like, you, I thought I would do my four years and get out.
My plan was to do four years, get out, go back to New Jersey, become a state trooper, and, uh, spend the rest of my life, you know, just being a MOOC from New Jersey. But, um, I got in there and it, it really spoke to me and I, I got some good mentors early on who took care of me. The way I hoped to take care of folks was, you know, I got senior and the next thing you know, it was 34 years and it was, it was time to go home.
Right. And it's, it's funny you mentioned the, uh, state trooper thing because as we discussed, uh, prior to recording, I'm also from New Jersey, and when I went on leave to visit family and I was thinking about my life, you know, after the military, there was a bunch of signs that said become a state trooper while I was driving on the roads in New Jersey.
But one of the worst parts about New Jersey in my opinion, you know, are the roads. You know, the, the tolls, the potholes, the bumper to bumper to traffic no matter the time of the day. So that was not something I wanted to do, but, so a couple questions here. The first being, how long were you enlisted before you went officer?
Yeah, four years. I did a, a full tour, um, enlisted before I became an officer.
Right. And do you feel like that really benefited you in a sense of relating to the enlisted as an officer compared to officers who were, you know, straight outta the academy or had never been enlisted? Did you feel like there was a big difference between the prior enlisted officers and the, you know, the regular officers and how did that help you?
I, I think initially there, it was a double-edged sword, right? Um, part of me had to learn how to stop being a corporal and start thinking like a lieutenant. Um, and, and a lieutenant definitely has to see the world a little bit differently than a corporal and has to not be tempted to do it. You know, the corporal's job, right?
Had to transcend and become a little bit of, uh, you know, of an officer's mentality as opposed to enlisted. I would say it, it gave me a benefit, uh, initially in that I understood the perspective and I knew if I did something or said something stupid, how that sounded, you know, as a Marine who sat in formation.
Listening to officers, you know, say and do some, some pretty stupid things. Um, so I think it gave me perspective. Uh, the other thing, it, it gave me, you know, pause. If I was going to ask the Marines to do something, uh, I would think to myself, what, what would that feel like if, if I was being asked to do that?
You know, and again, I, I prided myself on never asking my Marines to do anything that I myself was not willing or capable of doing. But I definitely think in the beginning it gave me a, a, an ability to relate. It gave me a little bit of street credibility right from the start. I would tell you that the younger Marines thought it was pretty cool to have an officer who had, you know, had been enlisted, who had made it to the rank of corporal.
I looked like them a little bit. You know, I, I, I was an officer who had tattoos right from the start, which was, which was very uncommon. Um, and so it helped me in developing that initial, I. Human connection with the Marines. But once, once you made that connection, you could quickly lose it if you turned out to be, you know, what we would call in the Marines an ass hat, right?
If you just started doing silly things. Um, and I would tell you the other. Side to the sword was, uh, sometimes it, it could have been, um, a, a, a curse because you, if you were not able to stop thinking like a corporal and start thinking like a lieutenant, you would make mistakes that would make everybody unhappy with you.
The officers would look at you like, you know, you, you're not acting like an officer, you're not thinking like an officer. And the Marines would look at you and say, well, there's one that just can't let it go and is pretty ineffective. So it, it could be a double-edged sword. I'm very thankful for the experience though, and, and I did it on purpose.
Like I, I had ideas that maybe I was thinking about being an officer, but I knew I wanted to be a Marine first and, and get that experience. So again, um, I think it helped me initially after about five or six years, I don't think it matters anymore because at that point you start to get evaluated by your Marines on how well you know your job and how well you care, not how you became an officer.
Right. And. What I want to ask you, which is, you know, very personal and very, um, important to the military because, uh, the way it goes, which we've talked a lot on the show about which is the highest suicide rate, uh, for active duty and veterans. As a leader, have you lost anyone under your command? And if so, how did you deal with that as a leader?
And what advice can you give, uh, to military members, both as leaders and as coworkers to the sailors and soldiers who, uh, whose lives are lost? I mean, what advice do you have for us, if you have any experience with that? I,
I mean, unfortunately I do. Um, you know, you can't serve as long as I did and not get touched by, you know, either suicides or training accidents that lead to death and then ul.
Ultimately, you know, having to lose Marines in combat. Um, so I've, I've had the unique o opportunity to experience all of those. Un unfortunately, um, I'll talk directly to the suicide one. Um, you know, I had a very good friend, um, who I spent a lot of time with in the Marine Corps, uh, late in my career who, who committed suicide, unfortunately.
And, and I would tell you, it's, it's devastating for everybody. Um, not to mention, you know, the families that, you know, lose their loved one. You know, the thing I would tell folks is, um, you know, just do the normal things that we do in the military anyway. You know, start with, with caring and taking an interest.
You, we all know when somebody's off. Um, and you know, a lot of times we see it and then we let the day get away from us where we don't make an effort. You know, I would tell you that one of the things that, that troubled me for years. Um, you know, after this most recent suicide was, I kept asking myself it over and over again.
What did I miss? What could I have done differently? What didn't I say? What did I not notice that could have prevented it? Um, and, and so I would tell you, you know, for folks out there listening, if you have friends who, who are not struggling well, and I'll come back to that notion of struggling well, because it's, it's a major thing in my life right now, and it's actually what I do for a living is, is helping folks struggle.
Well, um, just don't be afraid to ask hard questions. Don't be afraid to, to ask personal questions. Be authentic, be genuine, and care enough to say, you know, Hey man, how are you doing? Um. So you are right. It's a, it is an epidemic. I mean, 22 a day or 22, yeah, 22 a day. Take their life. It's, it's way too many.
Um, I would tell you that for those out there who might be listening, who are, who aren't struggling well, who have PTSD, um, I would tell you, for me, I had terrible PTSD, um, and I still struggle with it, but I've been able to find this notion of post-traumatic growth. And through that, um, I've, what I've come to experience is you can live an amazing life after trauma if you control the two things in your life that you can always control.
And that's your attitude. In your effort, um, surround yourself with a three to five folks who lift you up and help you make you know the, the best possible choices, who you have a deep, trusting connection with, and that. That's hard to do in civilian world once you leave the military, but I'm encouraging anybody who might be listening to, to kind of go ahead and, and, and give that a try.
Um, as far as combat loss, I could tell you there's a whole. Whole set of emotions that come with losing Marines under your command. Um, everything from re, from, you know, from guilt, you know, to, uh, to remorse, to regret you question yourself. Could you have said something differently? Could you have ordered them to do something differently?
Could you have, you know, changed circumstances in a way that would've prevented them from, from being killed by enemy action at the end of the day. What, you know, I've, I've been able to reconcile in my mind is first and foremost, um, the enemy always has a vote. And when your time is up, your time is up.
Unfortunately, and there is a little bit of, you know, divine providence in that statement, and I recognize that. But what I would ask folks to consider is if you've lost Marines, uh, soldiers, sailors, airmen, uh, coast Guardsmen, or now Space Force folks, if you've lost, um, don't make it about yourself. Uh, because they, they made that sacrifice.
They knew what they were doing when they, they took that oath of, uh, enlistment or, uh, that oath of an officership. Try not to make it about yourself and just never forget, celebrate who they were, what they were, what they did. Don't, don't try to make it about yourself. 'cause I would tell you, a lot of times we do that, we make it about us.
Like, again, like I said. I thought, what did I do? What could I have done differently? This, that and the other. At the end of the day, it was a little bit disrespectful to their memory. I mean, they, they served for their reasons, they understood the risk. Don't try to take that, uh, that away from them.
Right.
And one thing that I'd like to say that I think you would agree with is, you know, no one in the military is invulnerable. No one, even the guy who, or the girl who is fully qualified, always smiling, gets everything done, you know, is it means they're immune to the, the stresses of life and everything. And the point I'm trying to get at is actually I have a, after I got out of the military, I guess because I had gotten out the, uh, a sailor on my ship felt safe to talk to me compared to when I was in the service.
And you know, they kind of revealed that they were actually had been feeling suicidal and depressed for almost. A year and a half since way back in training before they even got sent out to the fleet. And it was someone I would've never expected, you know, it was someone who was doing their job every day, was always smiling, conversating with people, and it kind of came out of nowhere, you know?
And, and it shocked me. And I realized from that, you know, they had always told us in the, in the training and briefs, like, you know, even the perfect sailor or perfect soldier, anyone, you know, can be feeling this way. And you had to not idolize them. But, you know, I kind of got caught up in, you know, my friends seemed fine, even even coworkers who I didn't talk too much seemed fine.
And I realized after that, that experience, I started asking more questions. I started talking to my fellow sailors more about that kind of stuff. And I realized a lot more people who seemed fine weren't. So, like you said, ask me the hard questions and, and now I check up on everyone every day now that they've shared that information with me.
But yeah, you know, you never know when it's gonna happen. Now, Mr. Nathanson, before we continue on with the advice and all the great stuff you're sharing with us, I'd like to kind of get you and, and us and the audience familiarized with each other a little more. And by that I mean, I know you did a long time in the service, so you can't cover everything, but a broad overview of what exactly your life was like, you know, as far as what you did for your job and kind of your day-to-day routine.
And, and the broad picture of, from the beginning when you got outta bootcamp and you joined the service to kind of right before your retirement, what were, what were you doing most of that time in the service?
Yeah, it's, and it's one of the things that I missed most when I retired and that was what, you know, we call in the Marine Corps your basic daily routine and you, you set into a bunch of habits and patterns that you just repeat every day of your life.
And, and it's something familiar and it's something comforting, you know? So I would tell you, you know, the minute I graduated bootcamp and, you know, went off to my, my military occupational school. You know, I, I created some habits that stuck with me throughout my whole life and, you know, so it was early, early up in the morning, you know, you take care of your, your physical fitness and, uh, get after some, some PT every morning, get a good meal, um, spend some time just reflecting on things.
Um, you know, I did that as a young Marine and I did that, you know, right up until the day I retired. Um, that routine. Um, so, you know, for me, typical enlisted marine, went through bootcamp, came back from bootcamp, went to my MOS school. I ended up actually in motor transport. Um, so, you know, not what I expected, not what I.
I wanted, I believed the recruiting poster. You know, you see all this action and adventure that Marines do. And I ended up a truck driver, um, which was a little bit disappointing at the time. But, you know, with maturity and experience, I came to find out it was actually, it was the second largest MOS in the Marine Corps was actually pretty important because everything revolved around transportation.
And I, I kind of just kind of accept the, to be, you know, the best marine that I could be. Um, the typical things you would expect up in the morning, get down to the motor pool, make sure that. You know, my truck was in highest state of readiness and ready to go. And if we had a mission, went out and, uh, executed it, you know, safely made sure that if it was cargo or personnel, they got loaded or unloaded properly.
And I just, you know, drove the vehicle within its capabilities. Um, when I became an officer, I wanted to be a pilot. Um, and that's where I experienced my first disappointment, uh, in the Marine Corps. I went down to Pensacola to start flight training and about nine months into it, um, you know, I found out that there were two things that were, you know, not, uh, not to be avoided.
First and foremost, I wasn't really picking up the concepts of flying as well as I should have. So I was deemed what's called non flight adaptable, and I was basically told to leave. Um. So, you know, again, what do you do? At that point, I was offered an opportunity to get out, but I was like, no, I, I like being a marine officer.
I'll, I'll stay. So I, they made me a motor transport officer, um, which was again, one of those things that I hadn't expected. But, uh, looking at it in retrospect, it was great. And so now my responsibilities were, get up early, get to the motor pool, and make sure that all of the vehicles in the motor pool were at the highest state of readiness and, uh, able to execute any missions.
Um, you know, I did that for a couple years. Um, you know, I was a, so I was a platoon commander first, then I was a company commander, so, you know, scale, scope, responsibility. I went from being responsible for, you know, 70 Marines and about 125 trucks to being responsible for about 125 Marines. Um, and, you know.
Double the amount of trucks, um, you know, did that for many, many years. Um, ended up with seventh Marines, uh, right after nine 11. And, uh, there I became what's called a Regiment Logistics Officer, and it was my responsibility to take care of, you know, all of the logistics for, you know, three infantry regiments plus a tank battalion, an artillery battalion, and a light armored vehicle battalion.
And so you think, you know, beans, bullets, bandages, you know, maintenance, supply, fuel, things like that was, was all my responsibility. Um, did my first tour in Iraq in, uh, 2003 with seventh Range. Went back for 2004. Um, came home from, uh, from that second deployment to Iraq and I actually went to school to become a military planner.
Um, you know, my life became all about planning at that point. So when you graduate that school, you end up working for a three star general and all you do is, is plan. So the general says, Hey, I wanna do this or that, and it's your responsibility to come up with a feasible supportable plan to do that. Um, that got me promoted to lieutenant Colonel and it got me my first, uh, you know, what's called major command.
So I was a battalion commander, um, went back to Iraq with a battalion, uh, about 1600 Marines. Um, you know, spent, uh, eight months there. And, uh, after that, you know, spent some time on the joint staff, uh, got promoted to colonel. Spent some time over in, in Okinawa towards the later part of my career, commanded a regiment, which is, um, you know, a unit that's got four battalions underneath it.
Um, and just, you know, basically spent most of my career either planning or, or supporting combat operations. Uh, so it was, it was one of those things that, you know, I didn't join to be, you know, a support person, but when that's what the Marine Corps needed, you know, I decided to be the best support person I could be.
And what I found was that those marines and sailors. They needed good leadership too. And so they deserved my best effort. And, you know, I made sure that every day I gave them my best effort. Um, I would tell you the only thing that really changed later in my career, um, still got up early. Still ptd still ate, right?
Um, I drank a lot more coffee when I got older. I'm not quite sure why that is, but I did. Um, and I'll tell you, the other thing I did was I reflected more on the day's events and I started to journal things and I, you know, want to encourage any young listener out there. To, to take up the habit of journaling.
Just doesn't have to be formal, doesn't have to be like, you know, dear diary stuff. Just, just write kind of what you're thinking, feeling, experiencing during the day. I think it's important to leave a written, you know, accounting of who you are and what you did so that you know, your, your children or your children's children or you know, friends and family when you're gone, can look back and say, you know, huh, that's what they were thinking or feeling.
That's why they did what they did. That's why they said what they said. Um, so hopefully that that gave you a sense of, you know, what, what you were kind of asking for. Um, I, I loved being a Marine. I love the discipline. I love the predictability of it. I love the order and, you know, I never had to worry about what I was wearing, right.
I knew what I was wearing. It was pretty easy. Um, so yeah, I, uh, I, I really enjoyed the, the structure.
Now real quick, how many years has it been since you got out?
I retired in January of 2021, so it's been, uh, coming up on three years.
Okay. So still relatively fresh. And the reason I ask is obviously to this day you still struggle, uh, with, you know, retirement and, and leaving the service at.
What were the biggest things you struggled with and how did you overcome that and, and what are you still struggling with?
Yeah, um, great question. Um, I struggled because I wasn't ready to go, uh, quite honestly. So, you know, one of the things that I was very fortunate to have experienced in my career was I was actually nominated.
Um, and selected to be a general officer, which is a pretty big deal. Um, in the Marine Corps. There's only, you know, 80 generals outta 200 and something thousand Marines. So to be nominated, to be a general was kind of a big deal. Uh, long story short, my nomination ended up stalling at the Senate Armed Service Committee.
And instead of getting promoted, I got told to retire in five months. Um, so the shock of now all of a sudden I wasn't going to be a Marine, I wasn't going to get that final promotion. Um, and then, you know, with that, inevitably, even though it had nothing to do with anything I did, um, the circumstances caused people to question, you know, well, what did he do?
Why is he leaving? So on and so forth. So I would tell you that the accelerated departure stripped from me, you know, um, an opportunity. It stripped from me, my identity. Um, you know, I questioned, well, wait a minute. I didn't do anything wrong yet. I'm not gonna get that promotion and I have to retire. What the heck is that all about?
So you start to question every decision you've ever made. Um, but then what really hurt was you, you lost that, that brotherhood and that sisterhood with your fellow Marines, right? And now you're in the civilian world and there's not a marine around you for hundreds of miles. People don't think like you think, they don't see the world the way you see the world.
They didn't experience the combat and the trauma the way that I did. And so I just felt alone. I felt isolated. Um, you know, and I felt, um, I felt disappointed and betrayed by the Marine Corps, quite honestly, uh, because I felt that, you know, the, they should have done something, you know, to, to allow me to continue to serve.
Um, you know, add on top of that. You know, my life was a little bit of a, uh. A country music song at the end of my career. I mean, I got divorced, uh, my kids stopped talking to me, you know, I lost my mother, uh, to cancer. And then you add on top of that, all the disappointment of not getting that final promotion and being told you had to retire it, it, it was, it was hard for me.
Um, in the civilian world, I can tell you in, uh, in the almost three years since I've been retired, I've been fired from three jobs. And you ask yourself, what the heck is that all about? You know, I was one of the most successful marines of my generation. And then I go into retirement and I get fired. I mean, I get fired from, you know, people that, uh, have I.
Not nearly as much life experience and, you know, success in their life that I had. And, and here I am getting fired. Um, you know, I started to question, you know, my service, did it, did it matter? Did it add up? Um, and then you just add on top of that the things that for years I wouldn't confront, like loss of, loss of marines in combat as an officer, you were, you were taught to, to hide the way you felt about that, put on a mask and don't let anybody see that you were hurting.
And if you do that enough times, you damage yourself. If you don't grieve properly, if you don't show the emotions that it, it really hurt you that you lost marines. I mean, look, I've, unfortunately, I've, I've had to say goodbye to Marines on three different continents. Um, and you know, at one point in my life, I carried the dog tags of every marine that that ever died underneath my command and never grieving properly.
Um, you know, I, what I found was it just got to a point where I just, I just, I hit a low. Um, and, you know, I'm not embarrassed to say that, that I was, I was suicidal, I was depressed. Um, I was self-medicating with alcohol. I was self-medicating with alcohol on top of the pills that the, the VA was providing me to kind of deal with some of the symptoms of PTSD and so on and so forth.
And, and so I struggled. Um, I struggled mightily, but the good news is. Somebody did exactly what you talked about earlier. Somebody said, Hey, how are you doing? And they were like, no, how are you really doing? And when I was honest with them and told them that I was not doing well, they recommended a program for me called Warrior Path, uh, progressive Alternative Training to heal our heroes.
And, um, I, I sought out help through that program. I went to that program and it fundamentally changed my life. It, uh, got me back in touch with the warrior inside of me. It got me back in touch with my ability to make deep and meaningful connections with, with human beings. It got me in touch with, you know, my, my vulnerability and my authenticity.
I'm not afraid to talk about the experience of, of my military service anymore because no one's gonna judge me for it. Um, it, it helped me address some of the insecurities that I was experiencing as a result of being, you know, unable to get that final promotion. Most importantly, um, as I was finishing my week on the retreat.
Um, it turned into a professional opportunity for me. I was offered a job to come back and be the executive director for this foundation, and now I get to give that gift to men and women who are struggling, um, with PTSD as well. So again, um, it was all about just kind of changing my perspective and understanding that the two things in life I can control were my attitude and my effort.
And I was gonna have a positive attitude. I was gonna put forth maximal effort to, to live the best possible life. And I wasn't gonna accept a diminished version of myself. I mean, depressed and, and hung over, or drunk or self-medicated was no way to live life. Um, and I just needed to be reminded that I was.
I was deserving of something better. Uh, so, you know, again, um, I, I owned it, right? I leaned on people to help me, but I owned it. I made the responsibility my own to, to be better. And fortunately now, um, you know, a couple months removed from that program and going on three months in this, in this current job, um, I'm doing better.
And again, my goal in life now is to deliver this gift to as many folks as I can possibly, uh, deliver it to.
Right? And the reason that really touches me is because I kind of had something similar happen to me. I guess we could say that the denial of your promotion, uh, to put it that way, was what you would call political.
And obviously everyone has a different definition of what exactly that encompasses, but what happened for me, I would mark it under the category as of political. And what I mean by that is nowadays. And I think it's very unfortunate. Now, I'm not saying, you know, workplace inclusion is something bad, but the creation of a system, the encouragement of jobs, and even the military to select candidates based solely on a checkbox system is, is bad.
And I'll explain my story in relation to that. So essentially I had six recommendations for promotion. Uh, these were good recommendations from, you know, some petty officers who were my mentors up to a, the highest ranked civilian, uh, the highest ranked civilian on the nuclear base there. And a master chief and chief and I, I was well liked.
You know, if you read through my promotions, it said, you know, a hardworking sailor I. Dedicates two to four extra hours on top of the 12 hour shift. So I was doing 14 to 16 hours a day. I lived breathed eight, you know, slept work. I mean, I went home, walked my dog, dreamt about work, woke up, went back. It was actually unhealthy.
I actually got one, uh, you could say a not recommendation for promotion on the basis that they felt like I did not have a good work life balance and that I spent too much time at work. But what it said is, you know, that I was not the smartest nuke, but a i, a caring sailor. They said I cared a lot about helping teach others, helping train others.
And I had this Whoah Navy spirit, which was huge character growth for me. When I joined the Navy. I hated it. And I mean, be, I tried, I had actually canceled. I called my recruiter and told them I didn't want to go. The military was not something I wanted to do. It was my parents' dream that they kind of forced onto me.
And you know, I, I know a lot of the older guys in the military love to say, well, no one forced you to sign a contract. No one put a, a gun to your head. But the truth is, you know, when, when you're 17, and I grew up in a very strict household, very strict, you know, wasn't allowed to leave the house, wasn't allowed to chew gum, went to a private school, dad was in charge of everything.
Dad was the boss of the world. You know, he raised me that my town was the only place that existed. You know, I never knew there was states outside of New Jersey. To me that was the world. And so when they were like, you're joining, and they took me to the office and, you know, uh, right. No one forced me.
There was no gun to my head. But it was, you know, not really the, the choice I wanted to make with my life. But I joined. And over time, I don't know how, really what inspired me was a good leader. I had been discouraged at first because my first taste of leadership was kind of sour. You know, there's a lot of poor and toxic chain of commands in the, uh, military, I hate to say it, and there's some great ones, but your chain of command really breaks your experience or makes it, I mean, you could have a, a crappy base, but a great chain of command and you have a great time, or you could have a great ship and a bad chain of command.
It's kind of how the, you know, what cards are dealt. And I had a leader who, he, he wasn't the brightest guy. He actually was only a second class petty officer because he kept failing, like every exam for ranking up and. You know, he wasn't the brightest guy, but he was the nicest guy ever. He was an optimist, you know, a, a positive person who could be covered in, you know, dirt and grime from cleaning out a motor generator.
And he was singing and happy. He was positive. And he brought into my life this, this joy for work, this enjoying work, and a commitment to the Navy that, that I just loved. You know, he was retire, he was like leaving the military service. Um, and I was his last training class, I was one of his last students and he didn't take terminal leave.
A lot of people in the military will take terminal leave, you know, the last few months of their time, their contract, they'll just be gone and they'll come back, do their separation paperwork and leave. But he said, this is the only time in my life I will get to do this, to to be a sailor and to train other sailors.
Once I'm gone, I'm gone. You know, and those last few months are the most important to me. And, and that's what he told me. And it really inspired me. So I decided to dedicate everything to work. And I went from 6% behind to 20% ahead. So really 26% ahead if you, uh, do the math. But yeah, I jumped from negative 6% behind my work to, to over 20% ahead.
And I was just, I felt great. You know, I, I, I agree. I did spend too much time at work, but I loved it. And so I got the six recommendations for promotion, and it was gonna be narrow because they had promoted so many people, uh, two classes prior to me. But they said, they basically told me it was guaranteed.
I even spoke to the captain and, and he was gonna fill out the paperwork. When it came down to it. I did not get the promotion. The person who got the promotion quote. I didn't meet the diversity billet and they had chosen a, a person who was from the Philippines. And you know, the command said that there was no Asian diversity.
You know, we had plenty of, of, of white sailors, plenty of black sailors, plenty of, you know, the other races. But they said we don't have a lot of, you know, Asian sailors who have been promoted. And that's why I'm not in still is, is one of the biggest reasons, um, you know, that pol I deem it a political reason because I think it is political.
It's trying to look up to the higher up in the government and Big Navy and all that and say, Hey, we're doing what the people want. And like I said, workplace diversity is important. One of the strongest points of the military as, as well as one of the things that causes the most conflicts. But one of the strongest points is that we're all different, you know, and I've learned and met.
I've met people from all kinds of states and countries while in the service, and I've made friends with people. I never thought I would interact with people I, you know, from states and cultures that I didn't even know existed. And it was amazing. But, you know, denying someone who's qualified solely for the fact that you want that diversity, I think is, is a bad thing.
And so when you said, you know, you had issues with your promotion and it messes with your head, for me, you know, until I really knew that it was political, it was like, what did I do wrong? I mean, I had everything lined up right. I, I committed, you know, every day, 16 hours sometimes to this, this job. And then it kind of, I felt stabbed in the back and it's affected me to this day.
I mean, you talked about, you know, being in the service and then struggling with civilian jobs and. I found myself, compared to most candidates and, and most workers, military people have a much higher work ethic. I mean, it's, it's astronomically different, especially the younger generation that I'm a part of.
They are just slaves through their phones. They don't want to work, they don't want to be part of a team. It's awful. I, I hate to, you know, poo poo on my own generation, but it, the, the laziness and the selfishness is, is, is awful. But the military trains you to be part of a team and, and to work with others.
And so to the, the point I'm getting at is that the experience I had in the military with that kind of set me up where I don't wanna be committed to my civilian job because I just think what's, what's the point of trying anymore? It kind of was a overall feeling of, so I could do everything right and still get denied for some reason.
That has nothing to do with who I am or what I've done, and. Like I said, I don't know too much about the details of, of your promotion and the denial and the force into retirement, but I can kind of understand some of those feelings and it's definitely something I've still struggled with. And you know, it's one of the few things that I've actually cried about in the military.
You know, I, I'm not afraid to admit it. I, you know, I brought me to tears. Um, but on the topic of, of mental health, Mr. Nathanson, you mentioned being the executive director for the Eagle Oak Retreat, and I just want you to tell us a little bit about that. And if you had any comments on my situation, of course, I'd love to hear your input.
Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. I, I appreciate your, your, your transparency and your authenticity on that. It, it's not easy to talk about things that disappoint us personally and professionally, and particularly in the military. Um, you're, you're taught to not. To dwell on those things. Right. Um, you know, we famously heard in the Marines, you know, you know, take a knee, drink some water, rub a little dirt on it, take a Motrin and change your socks, you'll be okay.
Right, right. And we, we, we didn't encourage communication about the things in life that disappointed us or that we didn't quite understand, or when the service disappointed us, uh, and we just didn't understand it, you know? So my only comment to you would be that, you know, I I, I relate fully to, to what it is you're saying.
And, and it is a real challenge. Um, you know, you're, you're always going to come up to a circumstance in life where, you know, expectations don't match reality. And, and, and how we, we get better from that. It takes a little bit of effort and it takes training, right. And so that's the training that was missing for me was I was leaving the military.
I had been trained to do so many things, to operate in every environment and, you know, climb in place and to deal with adversity and all the things that I got, you know, during my career. But nothing prepared me, nothing trained me to deal with that disappointment. Right? To be denied a promotion for no fault of your own, for purely political.
I mean, when I say political, I mean political reasons. Like a senator, uh, took it upon herself to hold up my promotion and not allow it to go because, um, you know, I relieved a sub performing commander when I was a regimental commander, and that commander complained. The only reason I relieved her was because she was a female.
And when the investigations ensued and I went through three years investigations, they said no. She was relieved for poor performance. That Senator decided she was going to wield her political power and, and force, you know, the Marine Corps to make me retire. So, so I, I, believe me, I get it. Um, but here's the good news and, and here's why I'm so excited and passionate about what I do now.
Um, and it's not a job. It, it truly is a calling. So, you know, e Eagle Oak Retreat here in, in Italy, Texas delivers, as I said, warrior Path. And again, warrior Path is a progressive and alternative training for healing our heroes. It is peer led. Um. Training to deal with the side effects of post-traumatic stress.
Um, you know, we are one of several locations around the country where you can receive this warrior path. It's a program developed by Boulder Crest Institute. Um, it's got, you know, over 10 years worth of, uh, experience and science behind it, and, and we are winning the fight. Uh, against PTSD, and we're pushing folks into a realm of post-traumatic growth, uh, which is a phrase that was coined by Dr.
Rich Eski. And, uh, Dr. Calhoun, when they studied parents who lost their children, and they studied the POWs from the Hanoi, Hilton and Vietnam. And basically, the program helps you realize that there is life beyond your trauma, that you can grow in ways that you probably had given up on growing or that you could experience, um, things in life that bring you happiness and joy, even though you, you are, you know, uh, been exposed to trauma and disappointment, right?
And so, again, I talked about it in the earlier portion of this conversation. You know, you can control your attitude and your effort. And so this training. Helps folks do those things. Um, again, it is an amazing program. Um, anybody listening can, can learn more about it. They could just go to Eagle Oak retreat.org, um, and they can click on a link about our programs.
There's a great, uh, YouTube video out there, uh, that Boulder Crest has put out. It's called On Duty. I encourage anybody who is struggling with any post-traumatic stress to go take a look at that video, um, and then click the link at the Boulder Crest, uh, webpage to be able to find out more about this program.
But basically, I. Our approach is this, there's nothing wrong with you. Um, if you are, you know, depressed or sad or you know, re-experiencing trauma from your service, um, whether that's combat related or, or otherwise, there's nothing wrong with you. You are just a product of your experience and a product of your training.
The military trains you to respond to certain things, to, to see the world through, you know, a set of eyes that maybe is incongruent with the way society looks at things. And so what we do is we just, we, we refocus folks, we retrain them, and we give them skills to, to respond to life instead of react. And I would tell you that from my personal experience, it has been the difference, um, in, in happiness and, and sadness.
Um, it's been a difference between depression. And, you know, general excitement about living. Um, it has been the difference between isolating and withdrawing from all of my friends and family to, you know, seeking out meaningful, deep relationships with, with new people, as well as reaffirming my relationships with my, my family and my friends.
So, you know, again, I encourage anybody listening who might be struggling to, to kind of reach out to some of those, those, uh, things I talk about. Again, Eagle Oak retreat.org. From there you can find out where the other locations are around the country. It's a hundred percent free to qualifying veterans and first responders.
We'll bring you in, we'll, uh, run you through this training seven days, uh, on the property. And then, you know, there's 83 days of distance education and aftercare. That's been done, that's done through Zoom calls. And we have a wonderful application that allows for, you know, folks to stay connected. Um, but again.
To, to, to both our points about the disappointment. Eventually you do anything long enough, you're, you're going to find that something is, is going to disappoint you. How you act and react to that disappointment, I think defines who somebody is as a, as a man or a woman. And so again, with the right training you, you can, you can rebound and you could.
You know, be better than you were before that disappointing moment in life. Um, you know, and because you asked, um, and again, I'll be very careful about what I say and how I say it, but I think you are a hundred percent correct in, in one thing in the military. Um, I always believed that, you know, promotions and opportunities and advancement went to those who were the most.
Fully and best qualified. Um, that's the way it should be in the military because what the military exists for, um, we should not be a social, uh, social science experiment. We should be ready, uh, focused on readiness. And the best, most fully qualified should get the opportunities when, uh, when they arise. I understand that that is not necessarily everybody's perspective, but I would tell you that is, that is my perspective and I agree with you 100% best, most fully qualified should get the opportunities regardless.
Uh, because we are told from day one, when we joined the military, we were all equal and we would be, you know, based, valued and judged on our performance, not who we are, where we came from or how we look. And I think if the military gets too far away from that perspective, um, there's gonna be some challenges that, uh, they probably didn't, uh, anticipate.
But again, that's just my personal opinion.
Right. And, and something I've experienced along those lines too is it seemed, you know, at at least some of the chain of commands I've been a part of, it was if you want to get promoted, you had to screw over others. I mean, my best mentors were all withheld rank or reduced in rank because they had prioritized their sailors over not, you know, over the mission in a way that, that, um, you know, jeopardized anything.
But for example, I know my one petty officer who was nice guy, he cared about his sailors a lot. He had been, you know, taking a DRB in captain's ma and withheld rank, I believe, for denying or, um, not following a, you know, a fair order, whatever it was that they brought up. But essentially he felt like they were overworking their sailors.
They hadn't gone home for days. And, you know, they had been making good progress and were actually ahead of everything. And they were asked to stay again, and he said, I'm letting my guys go home. You know, they need to go home. You know, we can't, they're not robots. You can't push them to the brink and just make, uh, work solely their life.
And that's what happened to him. And unfortunately, you know, it's been a lot of, uh, it's a lot of kissing up, which it, it, it shouldn't be, you know? And I think, in my opinion, you know, a lot of people would disagree with this, but I think good sailors and soldiers ask questions sometimes. Because I had a master chief, he was not a good master chief.
And well, he was doing wrong. And I know I had gotten in trouble. 'cause, you know, I stood up to him. I, I, I questioned him and, you know, his answer was, I don't have to explain anything to you. I'm a master chief. I have this giant anchor on my, on my, you know, uniform. I'm right. And, and rank isn't justification.
I think people who have been in for a long time tend to know what they're doing more. And I think that you should obey them. I'm not saying that, you know, disobey orders and go awol or do whatever you want, but it's definitely been the case where sometimes, and you know what, it's just like any job, you know, you're taught to be disciplined and integrity and all this, but the truth is, we're human beings.
And sometimes power goes to people's head, you know, just like this master chief saying, why I have a big old anchor, you know, that's, that's a power trip. That's not. And and it was also a thing where a lot of the senior chiefs and master would say, well, I've been in for, you know, x, y, z amount of years, so I already know everything.
And you know, and the truth is you never know everything. And the military is always changing in a sense that each generation is different than the last, you know, the people are different. And one of the worst things I experienced was. I had a leader and he, his philosophy was that unless we had it worse than him, it didn't matter what happened to us because I had brought to his attention, I said, Hey, we're kind of being overworked.
And I said, we have the manpower. We had the scheduling capability, we had the watch standing ability to have this kind of rotation where instead of having a 24 hour duty day every two days and working on top of that, we could have it every six days. You know, like everyone else out outside of reactor.
But he said, you guys don't have it worse than me. I don't care. Um, he goes, the only time I'll ever step up is if you had it worse than me. But why would, why would I want it better for y'all? And, you know, that really bugged me because as a leader, and I'm sure you will 100% agree with this, for how you wanted the Marines after you, you wanted to be better for them.
I mean, we always wanna make a better military, you know, happier, you know stronger, more disciplined, more intelligent, but you know, better living conditions, better environments, better communication, you know, for our future generations. And, and what's your input on that, Mr. Nathanson?
Yeah, I, I think everybody should strive to leave things better than when they found them.
Um, and again, if, if through your experience, you, you find a, a better way to do something, a more efficient way, a more effective way, um, let's just face it a maybe a smarter way. Um, we shouldn't allow the, the philosophy of, well, that's the way we always did it to, to creep in. And that's one of the things that I always challenged my young Marines and sailors to think about.
It's like, if there's a better way to do something, I want to hear it and I'll, I'll again, I'll, I'll be the first person to say we're gonna do it if it, uh, if it makes the most sense. Right. Um, you know, I was very. Hesitant to put policies out, right? Because the minute you put a policy out, um, something changes and somebody challenges it for, you know, good and bad reasons.
But the one policy that I always had when I went to a unit was, if it's stupid, it's not my policy. Right? And so if somebody says to you something like, we're gonna do it this way, because that's the way I did it, and the way I did it was good enough, right? Um, I would question that, you know, it, there's always a better way to do things, right?
If there wasn't, the wheel never would've been invented, right? And so, um, yeah, I I'm with you. A, a leader who hides behind the rank, or a leader who hides behind. Uh, that's how we've always done it to me is, is not a leader. Um, it's, they're a follower. And again, I've always encouraged my young Marines and sailors to, to be leaders, right?
It was always in my intent. My intent was always focused around caring, around leading. I. Around being ready. Um, you know, and when, when we led, we led from the front by our personal example, and we, we led with a smile on our face, right? Because nobody wants to follow a leader who's always got a, a, a scowl on their face.
Like, what are you so crabby about? You're in charge. You have no reason to be pissed off. Like you're, you're the one calling the shots and if you don't like something, you're in charge, change it. So I always challenge leaders to, to, to lead with a smile on their face. I think it's really important. But yeah, I agree with you.
Anybody who would say to me, um, I don't want to listen to you because you don't have it as bad as me. I, I would just kind of question. It's like that old thing. We, we see the, the memes on social media all the time about our parents talked about walking the school up the hill, both directions, right. In the snow with no shoes on, right.
I mean, it's funny right? But it's not, I mean it, and it's not funny when you think about it.
Right? And, and professionalism too, because I've had some leaders. Who believe that the more they swear at us, the more they curse, the better a leader they are. And, and for me it's the opposite. I've had leaders who, you know, told me what I needed to, to hear, whether it was being disciplined or being given orders or, you know, advice.
And you don't need to, you know, just add, you know, a f-bomb or, or you're this or that every five seconds to, to get your point across. And something we've discussed a lot on the show as well is the, uh, punish in private, in, in praise in public. 'cause I've definitely had some times where leadership, you know, was doing their job and, and disciplining a sailor, but they kind of did it as a, let's publicly shame them.
And, you know, you never wanna publicly shame people. You wanna, you want to nurture and help them row and, and you wanna discipline. So that they don't make the same mistakes again, but also so they don't resent the service. You know, you want them to, to have that patriotic feeling that they're part of a team.
And yeah, and definitely having a smile. I've definitely had some leaders who were not approachable and approachability is something you need as a leader. So since we're talking about leadership, Mr. Nathanson, I know you've held several leadership positions, you know, throughout your life in the service.
What is your best advice for, for being a leader? Or, or what are some things you feel like you kind of failed as a leader that you learned from, that were really important to help you grow?
I mean, the best advice I could give for anybody who's who aspires to lead, uh, or inspire folks to follow first and foremost is you gotta be true to who you are.
You, you can't be something you're not, right? So if you're not a screamer or a yeller, or if you're an introverted person who's not overly vocal or you know, you're somebody who you know is very deliberate in, in the way they do things, don't try to be something you're not, because those that are, you know, those that you want.
To have, you know, follow you. They're not going to, if they sense that you're not genuine and authentic. I, I've talked a little bit about it and I'll, I'll double down on 'em because again, I think it's such an important thing. Um, you know, a real leader needs to care, uh, and, and nobody cares how much you know, until they know how much you care.
And so you've got to genuinely care about those that you want to lead. You have to care about them as a, as a human being, you gotta care about them as a, as a family person, you have to care about them as, you know, a, a person who's wearing a uniform and, and doing a, a, you know, a mission or a role. Um, you've got to just care about them more than you care about yourself.
Um, you know, we, we used to say things all the time to remind ourselves, um, the leaders, you know, it's like, eat. Eat last. And there's something powerful about that, right? Making sure that other folks are, you know, getting what they need before you even think about getting what you need. Right? And so, you know, my best advice, um, for a young leader or, or even an older leader who's just trying to take stock in how well they're, they're truly leading is, you know, the first thing you have to be able to do is, you know, you have to lead yourself before you lead others.
And, and that speaks to leading by example and, you know, not being victim of do as I say, not as I do. Um, and then. The flip side to that is you have to take care of everyone else before you take care of yourself. And to me, that's just one of the simplest ways for me to explain to somebody. What I think a good leader is, is all about when you see somebody manifesting those attributes, you, you want to be, uh, inspired by them, you want to follow them, um, you're intellectually curious.
Um, you know, I would tell you I'll own, I'll own my mistakes, right? Um, I made a lot of mistakes in a lot of leadership positions. Hopefully I never made the same ones, you know, more than, uh, more than once. Um, but you know, I would tell you. Uh, you brought up the, this topic of, uh, you know, of NJP non-judicial punishment or captain's mass.
Uh, I would tell you that my first opportunity to, to bring a young Marine to, uh, an Article 15, uh, hearing, um, I thought that the best thing that I could do for my unit was to make an example outta that young man because it would let everybody know the tone and the tenor and that I was there to make sure that when, you know, somebody brought dishonor, discredit to the unit, I would, I would protect the unit's reputation and, and hold those accountable.
Um, it sounded good, right? It sounded like it was the right thing to do, but in retrospect, um, being. That forceful in my, you know, carrying out of my responsibilities. Um, I, I didn't give him any opportunity to recover. Right? And so I, I could have given him the max punishment, right? I could have taken his rank, I could have taken half his pay, you know, for two months and I could have confined him to the barracks and given him extra duty, but I could have suspended some of it, right?
And there's the art in applying military discipline is if you give the suspension of those sentences, you give the person an opportunity to, to make amends, right, to be better. You inspire them to want to be better. And as a young battalion commander, um, I didn't even think about that. I just. Maxed them out, and I didn't suspend anything.
Well, it turns out this young man was, was actually a, a really good marine who just made a mistake. But because I didn't give him the opportunity to, uh, to recover from that fully, you know, he ended up leaving the Marine Corps after his, his enlistment because he couldn't get promoted again. Uh, even though, you know, he was offered a combat meritorious promotion when we were in Iraq, he couldn't get it because I didn't suspend those sentences.
So, you know, I, I would say that when you're in a position where you have to discipline somebody, think about the rehabilitative character that is in the person in front of you. Don't just look at the person as somebody who broke the rules and needs to be punished again, treat them as an individual and say to yourself, is this person, do they have redeeming qualities?
I would tell you that was a huge mistake I made as a brand new battalion commander, my very first NJP. Um, I would tell you, I. Uh, for the rest of the time that I was responsible and had the ability to, to punish people. I always thought about that young man. Uh, I won't say his name out in, uh, in public in case he, he hears this, but, um, yeah.
So again, that, that's, that's a mistake that I made that, that I definitely wish I had done differently.
Right. Well, I'm glad you learned from it at least that way. You know, you didn't keep making the same mistake, and I think that's something important for everyone to hear. So thank you for sharing that with us.
But yeah, I would say you've given us a lot of great advice. I really appreciate you coming on the show, but we'll probably wrap it up here. I want to thank you for your service for all the Marines you've led and all the people you're helping now, even after the service. Uh, thank you for continuing to support our community of veterans in active duty.
I really appreciate that. And if you have anything you'd like to close with.
No, I just wanna thank you for your service. Thank you for hosting a platform like this that allows folks to kind of come on and, and talk about, uh, these types of issues. Again, I'll just end with, you know, where I started with, for anybody listening out there who's struggling, you, you don't have to struggle alone.
You don't have to struggle in silence. There is better alternatives out there, and, and I encourage folks to, to reach out for help. Um, it is a brave person who, who seeks and accepts help. Um, not the brave person who, who does nothing with their, their suffering just continues to suffer. So again, thank you so much for, for allowing me an opportunity to talk with you.
I appreciate it. Um, this has been, you know, very, very interesting and, and educational for me, and I wish you, you know, great luck, success, and happiness. And, uh, if there's any, anything ever I can do for you, please, uh, don't hesitate to call on me.
Of course. And same to you. But that's all for now, ladies and gentlemen.
