Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and with today's episode, I do want to give a warning ahead of time that we will be talking about subjects such as sexual assault and rape, and. Other forms of sexual abuse. So if that is something that is triggering to you or you have trauma associated with that, just keep that in mind if you are going to continue to listen and I just wanna make sure that everyone is aware of that, but we are gonna be talking about it because it's a necessary conversation to shed light onto it.
Uh, we're gonna get into some statistics today as well to kind of show that it is a much bigger issue than people think. It is not handled as well as many people like to believe that. You know, someone reports it and the perpetrator is locked up, and that's the end of the day. But it is far from that. In fact, today we're gonna be focusing on the fact that there are a lot of repeat offenders, and we're gonna be focusing on what we can do to help catch those people, to help report those people and stop this from happening ultimately.
So here with us today, Ms. Tracy Dessi. So good to have you here today.
Thank you so much for having me.
Yeah, so I'd like for you to kind of just give a little background about yourself, your profession, what you do, and then we'll tie it back into your journey of creating the platform that I kind of hinted at about reporting and finding out repeat offender.
Great. Again, thank you so much for bringing attention to this, this topic that I think not enough people wanna talk about. Um, so I am actually a licensed clinical social worker and I've been doing gender-based violence work for, um, 20, about 25 years now. So a long time. I actually started my career working with adolescent sex offenders, so I worked on the perpetrator side.
Um, I worked in group homes for a very long time. I ran a domestic violence shelter. Then I started to realize that we need to do more to actually prevent these issues from occurring in the first place. Like the supports that survivors need are really, really important. However, we also, those supports are not gonna change the, the prevalence of, of gender-based violence, particularly sexual assault.
And so I helped develop a program, um. That got men involved in ending violence against women and talking about root causes, because I don't think that we involve men enough in this, um, either as understanding that they're victims, um, or understanding that the way they can be allies to others who have experienced these things.
Um, and so I did that for a while and, and ran a campaign that was a global campaign to bring awareness to, to gender-based violence, both domestic violence and sexual assault. And now I have the privilege of being the CEO of Callisto.
Right. And I do want to get into the conversation with you about the involvement of men and perceptions and mindsets.
But before that, I wanna trace back to, you said you worked with adolescent, uh, perpetrators, as in you were trying to, you would see them after they were reported or arrested, and you would kind of talk with them to find out why they did it or to help them understand why it was wrong, or what did that kind of look like Exactly.
Yeah, so, you know, most of my work with with offenders was in some type of group home, whether it was more of a security facility where they like a detention center, um, where they had been convicted of the crime and they were locked up. And in that process we did a lot of therapy to rehabilitate them. Um, or a group home where maybe they had not been convicted, but um, they couldn't stay with their family because their victim was a sibling or a cousin or somebody else that was close to the home.
Okay. Um, and then I also did outpatient work too. So, uh, those folks lived in the community, whether they were kind of stepping down from residential treatment, um, or they. They needed this because of a court order, and sometimes it was more voluntary, um, and the families got them involved. But it was really about looking at what happened to them and not only what happened to them, but more importantly talking about the, the cycle of sexual abuse.
Um, the sexual assault cycle is pretty common. Um, and, and it, it, it's somewhat prescriptive in the fact that like. Most offenders go through this cycle, uh, before they offend and, and some, some of the cycle is takes years and some it goes really quickly. But if you can teach them about this cycle and what their triggers are and why they offend and how not to offend, and sometimes it was just a matter of appropriate behavior versus not appropriate behavior.
Sometimes the youth that I worked with. Just didn't know because they had been offended. Um, not to say that that gives them any excuse as to the harm they caused. Accountability was absolutely key, but that was part of the treatment. Um, and again, that was almost 25 years ago, so it's been a long time since I've done that work.
But it, it has definitely, um, influenced the work that I do because it has shown that. Perpetrators need to be a part of this conversation. And I think so much when we, when we focus on victims, which we absolutely need to do, but we leave prevention and we leave ending this problem to victims and survivors versus the people who are responsible and how do we stop more perpetrators?
Um, which is why I really got involved in cultural change and getting men involved, because you can see when you work with offenders, all the ways that they justify what they did. That they didn't think it was bad, even though it was horrendous most of the time, if not all the time. Um, and so that was, that was really key.
Um, and at that time, the research said that there was. Anywhere from a five to 15% recidivism rate for adolescents, um, with treatment. And so treatment was really important to prevent other, um, sexual abuse. You know, people would ask me all the time, why would you wanna work with offenders? And it was because if you could stop a perpetrator who you know is offended, several different people and you could stop them, you're, you're preventing abuse before it happens.
And so you don't actually have to treat for their victims.
Right. And if you can stop people who have already done it, how much easier to stop people who have yet to make that decision. So I think that's really important. And so, if I'm understanding correctly, one of the major causes of, one of the reasons behind them doing what they did was the fact that they themselves were a victim of sexual assault or abuse, uh, earlier in their life at some point.
Yes and no. I mean, a lot of people who have gone on to offend have been assaulted, either physically have experienced physical or sexual abuse. However, most people who experience sexual or physical abuse don't go on to offend so. There's still a choice there, and there is still, it's still about power and control, and it's a way that they typically try to gain power over somebody, um, for whatever reason.
And it, it, it's less about sex. It's really not about sex at all. It becomes about power and control and how do they control power. And so there is a lot to be said about. Um, focusing on their abuse, but really you have to stop the behavior before you focus on their, their, the, the abuse that they've experienced as well.
Because that's not, because most people that have experienced abuse don't go on to offend. That is not the sole factor of, of prediction, of who's gonna offend or not.
I know one of the things that the military does and that some school systems even try to do is they teach obviously about consent and respect, but you're describing it not as an act of, of intimacy or of, you know, sexualness, but of power and control.
In which point I feel like respect and consent go out the window if it's about power and and control. So how do you feel about, do you feel like. Teaching about consent and respect is obviously still important and, and plays a role, but how do we have those conversations about power and control? Like what conversations should we have to address that side of it?
Yeah, I mean, I think that consent and sex positivity are essential for presenting, for preventing sexual assault. Um, most often in our culture, we don't know how to talk about sex, good sex, bad sex, whatever, what we like, what we don't like, and that is key to really understanding consent and understanding what your partner wants and what they don't want, and what they like and what they don't like.
But as far, far as power and control goes, most perpetrators are men. Um, even if the victim is a man, most of the perpetrators are still men. I think it's like 98% depending on the studies that you look at. And so a lot of that becomes, um. Learning, teaching men about toxic masculinity. Um, and I know that that can be a, a really triggering word for some folks because I'm not saying that masculinity is toxic at all.
Um, I'm saying that there is a form of masculinity that is toxic, that teaches men that they need to be in power over women, um, or other people or other men. And that part plays such a role of learning how to respect women, learning how to, um. Should be equal with women, um, to understand that women are humans.
They're not objects, they're not sex objects here for your pleasure. They're not, um, people to, you know. Be subservient to you. And I think that our culture has changed a lot in that time. The laws have changed a lot. I mean, I think that it was 1973 when women could get a credit card and a bank account in their own name.
So before there was the, there's has been this historical for hundreds of years of women as property. And I think that, um, that is part of the respect and the power over that. A lot of men think that they do have power over women, and then that leads into sexual assault and rape.
I think one of the important conversations too is on men's mental health and focusing on, you know, I, a lot of men get pushed into situations where they don't feel masculine anymore because of these societal standards pushed onto them.
Uh, mainly from other men, but also just in general. So focusing on not making men feel. And not saying that a lot of men feel this way, but making men feel so powerless or like, oh, if I don't have X, Y, Z amount of money or this success, well, the only way I can still have power is, is in that field of, you know, sexualness in that area.
Like that's the only way I can have power. So I think. Have putting men into a situation where they feel like they need to get power through a violent means like that, and having those conversations with men's mental health is important. And I know you talked about getting men involved and I think part of the issue of getting men involved is the fact that because of the statistics, we kind of feel like it's not our place to, because we feel like we're all the villains, you know?
Because it's kind of like. Men are, I'm not, I don't wanna say generalized, but a lot of men feel like, Hey, every, every woman involved with this is gonna look at me like I'm a perpetrator. So what would you say to that degree?
I think that anytime I've been in a room, like at a conference talking about sexual assault, um, at some kind of event, talking about sexual assault, and there are a couple men there, they always get applauded.
Every time. Um, and I think that we need more men to face their own discomfort to be able to stop this because men are gonna listen to other men. They're before they're gonna listen to me. And I think that you made a really good point of, a lot of times, and this is part of toxic masculinity, but that, that men are forced into a box.
Um, and that box, what they can do is, is they get power from sex. They get power from money, and they get power from like athletic, athleticism and physical. Physical power. And so if, if you don't have any of that, one of the ways that you can get power is through sex and taking power from other people, which then becomes rape, that then becomes sexual assault.
Um, and I. I think that the more men want to examine that on their own and with the help of other men and with the help of women, um, because I think that this is complex and it requires a lot of vulnerability and that is something that we have not taught boys and men to feel. Um, that's a weakness. And then when there, you know, there's a lot of men, not all, like you said, um, that when they feel weakness, they don't know what to do with it.
So again, they look for one of those routes and if they don't have money. Maybe they're not physical, like big physical stature. Um, then they go to sex, um, and create power that way. And this is, I mean, I have taught courses, uh, like two to two hour long seminars that just gets to the tip of the iceberg on a lot of this stuff.
And so this is really complex. Um, and it's not a one size fits all, and it's not overgeneralizing. But overall, I have found that. Not always. Um, but that men, we want men to be in the conversation. And I will say that there are a lot of women that don't. There are a lot of victims and survivors that don't.
But we also have to recognize that one in six men, or one in six boys before they turn 18 will have experienced sexual abuse. Um, one in 15 men in college will experience sexual assault or rape while in college. Um. In college, most men are more likely to be sexually assaulted in college than they are to be falsely accused.
And so I don't think that we think about even inventive, inviting, um, victims who are men into the conversation as well. And so if men are thinking about this and they want to help, you know, they start with. Oftentimes, I, I think that men start with, well, it's my sister. It's my, my child, my daughter, my my wife.
I want to protect them. But it's about you. It's about you as a man and figuring out what you can do to help yourself and help yourself through the mental health issues and, and how you can empower yourself and find, find power in really healthy ways. Um, and that's gonna make you feel better, first of all.
And then it's gonna have the, the outcome to really help the women in your life as well.
And one thing I think is really important is the involvement of men in the, you know, not. Projecting onto every man because what happens sometimes I'm sure, is that men who feel like, oh, well women already think I'm a perpetrator.
They, they, when sometimes when people feel like they are already labeled a certain way, they're like, well, I might as well, I. Act that way then, or I might as well do it because they already think I'm a perpetrator, so who cares at this point. So I think it's important to not put on that, um, that label necessarily in that general sense where men feel like, well, I'm already the villain, so what does it matter at that point?
And like you said, having them involved and being like, Hey, like we recognize that there are good men and there are bad men. You know, just like there are good women in, in bad women. And so I think that's important. And I think also understanding the mindset. One of the things we've talked about on the show before is how people will reason and will twist things around and justify things.
And one of the things we talked about, one of the methods is comparison, right? And so the mindset of, oh, well I don't beat my wife, you know, I don't hit my wife it, or she could have it worse, you know, or, or it's just assault, it's not rape. You know, we've talked about it in the context of mm-hmm. Hey. Yeah, so maybe I, I emotionally and mentally abused these people, but I, I never hit them.
And so I think the same thing goes into that. So I think also focusing on the fact that like a lesser evil is never good, right? And, and I hate to even call it that, right? Because it's, it's just as bad if not worse than physically beating someone. But I think that justification is something as well, making sure that people are aware, like, hey.
Yes, domestic violence is, is bad. Um, and, and sexual assault and rape isn't any better than that. You know, having conversations like that.
Yeah. And I think it's acknowledging your own self. You know, where, um, there was the thing going around TikTok of man versus bear. Yes. Have you heard that? Yes. The man versus Bear.
Yes. I've talked about it with a lot of people and
yeah. And I think that, that men were really surprised and angered by that. Um, and I. In the same vein, I've talked to many men over the years and I've talked to dads and I, there's this one conversation that stands out in my mind where I was talking to a dad, um, who had been accused of sexual harassment in the workplace, and I was there to coach him.
And he's like, yeah, but I didn't do it. And I was like, I don't care if you did it or not. Like, let's just talk about what be, what you can do better in the future and what you can learn from all of this. And he had a teenage daughter and I said, what do you think about your teenage daughter dating? And he's like, oh, I don't want her to date.
And I said, why? Who are you protecting her from? Oh, all those men out there. And I'm like, so, and you are giving her the message that all men are bad. And to your daughter, all men are bad. So when do we as women grow up to think that not all men are bad because to, to your, as a father? I think most fathers will say, um, that all men are bad, all boys are bad, and they don't want their daughters dating them and they don't want, I.
What boys dating their daughters? Yeah. Because they know what's gonna happen and then they expect women to say, oh, well, we have to discern who is bad. But it's, of course, it's not all men, but it's enough of them where women have to walk around protecting themselves because we don't know which ones. And most rapes on college campuses and in general are committed by somebody, you know.
Um, and it's by somebody. I mean, I don't, I've never met an offender. And even if you think about celebrity offenders, they all deny it first until they can't. Um, you look at, until there's, even sometimes in video evidence, they still deny what's happening or that they didn't mean it or that was a misunderstanding.
Um, and so there, there's a lot of justification there about their behavior when really they need to see what's reality. Um. And it's a complex issue with a, a lot of solutions and a lot of, um, aspects to deal with at one time, and there's no one solution. Um, and it, it's, it's complex, but I would invite men to really stand up and say, how can I be better?
Rather than like the example that you gave of like, oh, well, they think that I'm a perpetrator anyway, so. Who cares? Well, why not say, well, gosh, they think I'm a perpetrator. Maybe I should really prove to them that I'm not by being kind, by being, um, yeah, empathetic by being vulnerable. That's on me. Like you can't change, like the women around.
You can't, you can't change them of what their views are. Um, yeah. But what you can do is change yourself and that's what you're responsible for.
Yeah, for sure. And what you're talking about is very interesting with the, the parenting, the teaching avoidance rather than, uh, selection, uh, selection being in, in this definition, like making sure you understand the qualities of a good man, the qualities of a bad man, and understanding safety and all of that compared to just total avoidance, you know, where all right, just no men at all.
That's the a hundred percent safe option. Mm-hmm. Rather than. Hey, we understand that there are good men and bad men and we gotta be careful and, and you know, really, you know, and I think. One thing I've seen, which some people say is weird, but I, I've met some men who will quote, take their daughter on a date like once a month and act like, Hey, this is how he should treat you.
This is how X, Y, Z, and I think stuff like that and having conversations like that too, and teaching about safety and safe practices is important rather than, like you said, avoidance. 'cause I, I think that's really interesting that you mention that if your daughter is growing up hearing like. Hey, like, you're not allowed to date.
Like men are just gonna do X, Y, Z, and A, B, C, and you know, I know 'cause I was a man once and I, I, I spent time with men who were like this. And I, I think that's so interesting to think you're, you're right. If that's what they hear their whole life growing up, that, like you said, at what point do they grow outta that?
And then yeah. If they do get into a relationship and it happens to be a toxic one or a bad partner, then they're just gonna think. Dad was right. You know, all men do suck. Yeah. So I think that's definitely a, an interesting thing to think about as a parent or any, you know, man, raising a, a woman, whether it's a, a daughter, a niece, or what it may be.
Mm-hmm.
And I will also say that I think that there's been a lot of focus on teaching girls to like identify red flags. And so there's two things that you said that I wanna kind of comment on. I think that there's this dichotomy of good men versus bad men, and what I will challenge your listeners to think is that good men do bad things.
A lot of the times, yes. Which is how they get away with it, especially serial perpetrators. They are really charismatic. Um, you know, bill Cosby was America's dad and also did really bad things. He did really amazing things for black people in Hollywood, and he drugged and raped numerous hundreds of women.
So. I think that we think we can identify who the bad men are or who the bad people are, and it's not that easy because most of the time they're very charming because that is part of the, the control that they have over you. And I will also say of like the dads that take their daughters on dates to know how they should be treated.
No judgment there. However, are you taking your sons out to show them how to treat women in a way that is respectful? And I'm not talking about opening doors for people and paying for the check. I'm talking about listening. I'm talking about doing emotional labor, of understanding what a woman is feeling, um, of really listening and caring and opening up to all of that.
That's what we really need to be talking about. 'cause I think that. We've done a, in many ways, we've done a disservice to men of, we've really taught our women about consent. We've taught our girls, we've had more conversations about that, but we're not having the same conversations with men and boys. And so, you know, we've taught our girls to be more like our men, but we haven't taught our men to be more like our women and our girls.
And I think that that, and I'm not saying that. Men need to be effeminate at all. But I'm saying to get in touch with that, that kind side and that right, um, empathetic side, um, and that caregiving side because fathers are caregivers and that wasn't the way it used to be. Fathers went to work, mothers were caregivers.
And that was kind of the way it is. But that's not the case anymore. And again, we taught women like, Hey look, you can go to the workforce, you can work, you can have a career, and you can be a parent. And we didn't teach men, especially of like Gen X generation of, you can be a dad and you can be a domestic partner and you can, you can do these domestic things because then they feel weak because they're more like a woman.
Um,
like men don't feel comfortable. Being more emotional or caregiving around other men because of that judgment. Oh, these other men are gonna call me, like you said, label me more feminine or whatever. And then in the same. Space when they're with women, they feel like sometimes you feel like you can quote lower regard, but you feel like, oh, well my woman's gonna leave me if I seem too feminine or seem too emotional.
And so then you're also locked off on that aspect. Yeah. So an interesting take is, obviously we've talked about parenting and parents teaching their children. What do you think about should it be, should the public education system and private education systems. Should they be responsible for hosting a relationship class or having it as part of health and education, whatever, however you want to put it into the school system.
Should they be responsible for having more conversations in education put forward on this?
I, I mean, that's a tricky subject. Um, I think that. Kids need more sex education and they need more consent, education and they need more, all of it. Is it the responsibility of the schools possibly? Um, and I think in many cases, yes, but I also think it's the responsibility of the parents as well.
Yeah. And I know that there's a lot of factors in there. But, you know, I used to live in Tennessee. And Tennessee has, um, abstinence only education, sex education, anything else you cannot talk about, which means you can't talk about how to navigate consent because you can't talk about how to navigate that unless you're married.
And so it doesn't resonate with students. Um, students are seeing like, you know. Kids are seeing sex on movies, they're seeing sex on TikTok, they're seeing sex everywhere. They're getting it. They know it. Yeah. And most people have sex before marriage, whether no matter what their religion is or their religious beliefs.
Um, but we're not teaching people how to talk about sex in the same way. So they're getting educated by porn. And porn is acting, it's not real sex. Um, and so I do think that we need to have more sexual education. There's a really amazing book called. Sexual citizenship by Jennifer Hirsch and Amos, oh, I'm blanking on his name.
Um, but it talks about how we show up as sexual beings, um, as citizens. Um, and it's really important, and I think that there's a lot of colleges that are starting to implement this programming and requiring freshmen to take these classes. And I think that that can be really powerful because, um, we don't.
We, if you're not comfortable talking about sex with your clothes off, then you can't talk about sex with your clothes on, or no, sorry. Opposite way. If you're not comfortable about talking about sex with your clothes on, then you're not gonna be comfortable talking about sex with your clothes off. Right?
And that's when it's really important and you're not able to navigate those boundaries, men and women.
Yeah, and I think it's important, like. Also very important, just understanding that like at any time, you know that you have the right to walk away. You know, like, 'cause you just, you remind me of when you said to close off, like once your clothes come off, it doesn't mean like, all right now this has to happen.
Exactly. You can always, you know, leave. So I think that's important. But yeah, I think it's a tricky situation with the schooling, right? Because some parents might be like, Hey, I don't want you teaching my kid. You know, X, Y, Z about sex or relationships, like, I believe that is wrong. So that gets kind of, 'cause this is all also subjective to a degree.
People had their different opinions on stuff, especially with conversations of faith-based organizations with different societies and cultures. You know, I remember in bootcamp it was interesting because we had a mandatory course on consent and respect and a lot of people. We're kind of upset or making fun of this one guy because he said that, you know, marriage is a lifelong contract of consent, but he was from Africa and he was from a very different culture than us.
Uh, so it is also a cultural and societal thing. And I, I know we mentioned, yeah, it's everywhere. On social media, on mainstream media and, and movies and, and books, you know, uh, pornography as well as there's a lot of. At least I've seen more online, a lot more erotic novels coming out that are also not necessarily realistic.
Uh, sometimes very unrealistic depending on what side of quote book talk you're on. But yeah, I think. From what I've studied is like the average age of exposure to pornographic materials is about eight or nine years old. It's getting younger and younger. Mm-hmm. Um, and part of that is obviously due to technology and access to it.
I know some states are starting to kind of talk and have conversations about combating that by requiring accounts or IDs or, you know, like verifying age. Which I, I think, is important because for me, it's almost ironic that we are so strict on keeping, you know, minors out of pornography. Yet when it comes to viewing it, we don't have the same level of restriction.
So I, I think it's, I find it ironic, like, why do we want our children to watch porn, especially at an age before they've had conversations about what is sex, what is consented sex, right? Their first exposure to it. 'cause most parents aren't thinking of talking to their six, seven, 8-year-old about pornography.
And I think in the past you didn't necessarily have to. That's not to say that obviously kids find out about stuff right before technology was magazines or you know, their neighbors who were a bit older, telling conversations, older siblings, but especially children being exposed to pornographic or sexual content without first having education or.
Ideas about consent and respect, I think already sets up a poor foundation from there. And that requires parents to have that conversation at a, a very young age, an age that they feel like uncomfortable talking to their child about and like, how much will their child understand? By the same time, would you rather try to explain everything and have them understand as much as they can rather than just.
Going into the deep end of the pool, so to speak, and then just figuring stuff out from that and not getting the proper understanding. So like what's your opinion on, on all, on all of this, of this exposure to so much sexual content and not just pornography Yeah. But sexual content in general on, on social media.
Um, I, ideas, you know, that are very, um, there's a lot of called, heavily implied, heavily suggestive content. Right. And, and a lot of it doesn't. Always give the right idea about consent. Yeah, a lot of it is, and unfortunately what I've seen is a lot of women marketing their OnlyFans, um, they kind of put forward a very, like, um, I don't wanna say they're asking to be as hard, right?
Obviously women aren't asking for that. But in order to market their, their product, they do play certain roles. Sometimes I think trigger men to, to respond or act a certain way,
right. And I would also, again, challenge that to say men, don men have a choice of whether or not they're watching that content.
Yeah, of course. So turn that content off and then it won't sell. Right. And I do think that there, like anytime I have a friend who has had a baby in a baby shower and I go to the baby shower, my gift is books on consent. And it's not talking about sex, it's talking about how do you share toys. How is your body, how do you say no when somebody touches your body?
Um, what are the names for body parts? I think that that's a big thing of sex education for little ones that parents don't think of, of like calling your name, your, your private parts. A hoo-ha or a dingling is problematic because that's what a lot of people refer to them as. And so if you've got somebody touching your, your 4-year-old child and they're using these words and all of a sudden your child starts using these words that you haven't taught your child.
Then you have an indication that somebody else is talking to your kids about that. Mm-hmm. And then you can start to have conversations, you know? And so like, that's one simple thing is that teaching your kids the body parts and not shaming body parts. Um, we can say the word vagina, we can say the word vulva.
We can say the word penis. And that those should not be. Terrible words because then we're automatically, um, creating shame around sex. And I think, yeah, the more we take shame out of sex, out of good sex, out of positive sex outta consensual sex, the more that we separate sex and rape because they're not the same thing.
Do you think that the, a lot of, how do I say it? Like a lot of curse words or phrases or expressions. Stem from specifically male anatomy more than than female anatomy. Do you think using those words in so many other ways, not as sexual organs, but as curse words, as insults, as descriptions, plays a role into any of this?
I.
Yeah, I mean, I think that jokes are connected to bruises for sure. You know, and, and there's different levels of how the culture, um, um, understands that. And so, not always, it's not like, but it plays a part, right? Um, when I used to do talks and I, I actually talked to about 1300 Army sold soldiers at one point about toxic masculinity and about, and half of them really loved it and got a lot of education on it.
Half of them thought I was a crazy person. Yeah. Um, and you know, and that's okay. I'll take the half. Right. Right. Um, but I think that it's, it, it's those jokes and it's that locker room talk. Right. And that leads to, you know, if, if there's 10 men in a locker room and they're all talking, and two may not like it, but haven't said anything, and five are like, whatever, it's not a big deal.
I don't see an issue. And then there's one or two who have now used all of that permission to justify what they're gonna do. That's where it becomes the problem. Where if somebody said, Hey, why are you talking like that? That's not cool. That's not how we treat women. That's not how we do all of that. That changes the, the, the thought process in those one or two offenders in the room.
I. Of like, oh, I can't justify it that way anymore because they're using that to justify. Right. And, and it's called cognitive distortions of how to think, make their behavior be okay. And, and that's part of the issue. And so I think that with using that and that those, that language, why do you need to, what's the point of it?
And if you really like dial that back, is it to be more manly? Is it to, to make fun of people, make people feel uncomfortable? Well, that's a power thing. And then that, that power part contributes to sexual assault and domestic violence.
An interesting thing. I, I agree that bystanding and bystander is, is a huge role in this because also just the, uh, if, like you said there, there are offenders or future offenders and no one's ever holding them accountable, there's no fear of consequences other than the law, which we kind of discussed in the very beginning of the episode that.
You know, they're seeing a lot of people get away with it, so then they think they can get away with it. Right. But even if before they do anything, they've already got people trying to hold them accountable, how much more so they're gonna be afraid to do something. And also, like you said, bystanding is, is basically enabling it.
You're, you're enabling it by allowing it to happen. So I think that's really important, like you said, to hold people accountable, especially. In the workplace, you know, if you hear that kind of conversations, obviously anywhere, but especially in the workplace, like where the, you're supposed to maintain that even higher level of professionalism, respect, but especially like you said in those places that maybe there's more lenient in how you talk like a locker room or you know, at the gym or at home.
Also understanding that leaving the workplace, you know, respect and consent, don't go out the door. Right? Like that's right everywhere, you know, and it's not just like a HR or corporate thing, it's supposed to be a societal thing. So I think that's really important. And um, you know, we've talked a lot about, um, power and shame and control.
Do you think that, I think a lot of. Social media and just toxic masculinity in general puts such an emphasis on like men's value being placed in their manhood. And then so men who feel insecure in their manhood maybe go on to commit, uh, sexual assault or rape, to feel more pride in their manhood. What would you say about those conversations in that topic?
Um, yeah, I mean, I, I think it really all connects, um. I think that if, if they, if, if a man feels that they don't have pride in their manhood, then they're gonna try to seek that out and they're gonna seek it out in unhealthy ways that the culture says. They quote unquote, have to be a man. Don't cry, don't show emotions.
You can only show anger. Um, you know, all of these things. And then it's gonna come out in really negative ways. Um, and typically that's gonna be power over other people, and it could lead to power over women, which is then. Um, gender-based violence. Um, and so again, I think it just goes back to how can men really start to look at themselves and challenge other men.
If I say something to men as a woman, like, Hey, I don't think that you should do that. They're not gonna listen to me. If you say something to other men of like, Hey, man, that's not cool, they're gonna be more likely to listen to you. Um, and I think that mean there, there's so many different parts of the culture, whether it's music, whether it's movies, whether it's TV shows, um, all of it that needs to change.
And, and it has changed a lot and it needs to change more. Um, and women can't change it. Men have to change it. Um, so yeah, I'll just kind of stop there on that one.
Yeah. And I, I think also the dynamic of like. Men or sons are supposed to, you know, just be partnered up with their dad, and daughters are supposed to be partnered up with their mom.
And if you're a man who's closer with your mom, there's almost this shame that, oh, you're a mama's boy, or you're gonna have mommy issues and this and that. And it's like, no men are allowed to spend time with their, their mother. Yeah. And, and learn from her. Some of those. Quote, you know, softer sides of personality that maybe you won't get from your father.
So I think that's important too, is not setting up this dynamic that daughters have to partner with. Their mother and sons have to partner with their father, but that everyone spends time with each other. Learning. And one of the things that we haven't necessarily mentioned, we kind of talked about men and their involvement and you know, stepping up.
What about former offenders? Who have, you know, had counseling and, and understand, you know, the wrongfulness of their actions, who want to get involved in the conversation to prevent other people from doing what they've done. But, you know, they're, they're scared. Or if you're ashamed, I mean, have you worked with former offenders mm-hmm.
Who have stepped up and, and what advice and encouragement would you have for them?
Yeah, I have, and I think first of all it is. They need to make sure that they've done a significant amount of therapy and that their therapist, therapist agrees that they're ready to do it with therapy Who,
yeah.
With a therapist who really understands these issues.
Um, in that way it's not just taking a batter's intervention course and being like, I'm good. Um, because I think that sometimes offenders do this as a way to say like, look, I, I, I can own this and look at me, and now I'm getting, um, you know, kudos and, and
right.
Praise for being a better man. 'cause I can say all of this.
Well, you have to really know your intentions behind that. Um, the other thing to note is that you have to give space to victims and survivors first. And I don't believe that offenders should get paid for their work. Um, very, very. So often survivors will be asked to speak and to tell their story, uh, for fundraising events, for nonprofits, for different things, and they're not paid.
Um, and then offenders come in and they get paid for their work. Uh, which again, I think is, is part of our sexist culture a lot of the times. But, um, I don't think that if, if offenders do get paid, I think that they should. Donate it to victim service organizations because they should not get paid on somehow.
They should not get that type of recognition and monetary recognition for, um. Causing harm to other people. Right. Um, I do know that like Ray Rice was a football player, I think it was 2014, who we saw the video of him, uh, not like punching his then fiance, now wife in an elevator and knocking her out cold and people didn't believe it.
And then they saw him dragging her out of the elevator was the first clip, and then they saw it. The punching, um, her and knocking her out in the second clip. And people didn't believe it at first. And I do know that he was at a conference a couple weeks ago to talk about it. I don't know whether or not he got paid.
And I think that there is a lot of value for somebody who has done a lot of work and you can see that they, that they've done. And I think that can really inspire other men to, excuse me, really look at their own behavior. Yeah. And I think that that is really important. Um, but I think it's also complex.
Yeah. So not, you know, having genuine humility and mm-hmm. You know, repentance and not leading to almost idolization or like, how, how would I say it, making them seem heroic, you know, like Right. Making sure it's understood like this was very wrong and we're glad that they understand that and they want to prevent it.
I think what you said is so important. Making sure it's not just a reputation saver, it's not just a front that they're like, oh, look at me. I think that's really important. So, you know, for all the people hosting these conferences and events and fundraisers, you know, sometimes we want to jump the gun and be like, oh wow.
A, a former perpetrator that would really help the fundraiser, help the conference. Uh, just make sure the value you're adding, you know, you're not. Quote, selling out, make sure it's gonna right. Really be, uh, impactful. And I, I think that's so important. So let's move into now kind of what you're doing nowadays, uh, to help with, as I mentioned, the very beginning, helping people report safely and, uh, determining if their offender is a repeat offender.
Can you tell us what you're doing nowadays with that work and why it's so important to everything we just discussed?
Thank you for that. Um, so I run an organization, it's a national nonprofit called Callisto, and we built technology to help survivors find out if their perpetrator has harmed somebody else.
So that's, that's a lot if you haven't thought about that before. So I'll explain a little bit what it is, but first I wanna tell you why we exist, and that's because 90% of sexual assaults on college campuses are committed by serial perpetrators. So people who offend more than once and on average.
Perpetrators in college offend six times. That's a lot. So if we can stop a perpetrator after two offenses, which is too, too many, but if we can stop them after two before it gets to six, just like the work that I did with, um, the offenders in their youth, we can reduce college sexual assault by 59%. Right now, about two and a half million students every year are sexually assaulted in college.
It's horrendous. Um, and less than 10% report so. We have built technology where anybody in the US and its territories with a.edu email address, um, has free access to this and the schools do not pay. So, um, so it's free for everybody. Um, and if they wanna find out if their perpetrators harm somebody else, they go in and they put.
The state where the assault occurred. And that's because sexual assault laws vary by state and then they put in a unique identifier of their perpetrator. So their perpetrator's, social media handles email address, phone number. There's about 12 different things that they can put in, and they can put in as many as they know as that will increase the chances of a match.
And so that's what we use to match on. It's all highly encrypted, so it is, it's encrypted before it hits our server, so it's saved in the encrypted state, so it's. Very advanced technology, um, and very safe, very secure. And so if two people put in the same Instagram handle, for example, of a, of somebody who's harmed them, there's gonna be a match.
It's not like a dating site, so it's not like a Tinder where they're gonna know right away. What happens is that we find out about that, but we cannot see the perpetrator's information or the survivor's information. And that's because lists like that get shut down for different. Defamation. We are not a list that you can sort through, you can look at, we are not a warning list, um, of like, oh, I had this boyfriend in the past who I didn't like and we're gonna put him on this list to warn other people.
That is not what we do. Um, but what happens is that when there's a match and we get notified, we assign that to a confidential advocate so that person's protected legally under confidentiality laws and they're trauma-informed, so they understand sexual assault and they reach out to the survivors separately.
The survivors then have a choice. They can choose to meet with that advocate or not. If they choose to meet with the advocate, they tell what happened to them, and that's the first time they need to do that because we know that retelling your story, uh, can be really traumatic. And so they'd say what happened to them and then what are their options?
What does it. Potential. What are the criminal laws in their state? Um, what is the statute of limitations of? Can they even report still? What is, what is the civil course of action? What is Title ix? What is mental health options? All of the things that they may have questions about that they don't know, um, given their specific scenario.
And then if it's in the best interest of the survivors and they agree to it, only if they agree again, that's another choice that the survivor has to make because we make sure that they are in control of all of it. We will connect those survivors for them to pursue healing and justice, whatever that means for them.
So we do not report to police, we do not report to schools, we do not report to hr. We are really about connecting those survivors for them to then, if they choose to report together. Because we know, like if you think about Me Too, there was accountability in numbers. Um, when survivors got together, that was when Harvey Weinstein got held accountable.
That was when Bill Cosby got held accountable. Um, and we know unfortunately, that it takes more survivors than just one for accountability. It should just take one. Yeah. But it does it in our society. And so that's what we're really doing, is we're trying to find a safe way for survivors to connect without having, having to publicly disclose.
Now they can. Report and use our system. Um, we are an alternative or an addition. We are not, um, we don't replace any systems. We're adding onto a system. And the perpetrator can be anybody. It does not have to be somebody, it doesn't have to be a student. It doesn't have to be a professor. It can be, um, but we do have matches and we have, uh, cross country matches.
So one person lives on one coast, one person lives on another coast, and they've match. 'cause we know that survivors and perpetrators both leave schools. Um. In our pilot for about every 37, um, people who entered into matching, we found one serial perpetrator. Uh, and so it's working and now it's about spreading the word.
Uh, and that's why I'm grateful that you're allowing me to talk about this on this podcast because more students need to know, and I know that people are worried, especially a lot of men, about false reporting and false accusations. So, first of all, I'll say it again. Men are more likely to be victims of sexual assault on college campuses than they are to be falsely accused.
Also, there's not a lot of empowerment for men to report sexual abuse on college campuses. Uh, a lot of times that happens with famous coaches. Um, as we can see in, um, Dr. Anderson at U of M who just, um, that case just got settled recently. Um, and so there was a case, you know, at. At Penn State, at Ohio State with, with athletes and, and coaches.
And so this, so men can absolutely lead, absolutely use this platform. Um, and. There's no way to falsely accuse from our platform because the technology's encrypted, nobody has access to who's being named in there. Right? Um, the person that does have access, if there is a match, is protected under confidentiality, and we don't report.
So there's no reporting. It's all about the survivor. And the survivor can name the person publicly. Whe whether or not they use our tool. Um. So really it's a safety mechanism, um, to prevent that. And eventually we hope that, that, just knowing that a tool like this exists for accountability men in particular, but all people will think to go, is what I'm doing consensual?
Do I wanna get named on this? Do I want all these people that I've slept with to have a way to connect, to say what I did was okay or not okay. Um, and the, you know, false accusations when two or more people name the same person, it really goes down to less than 1%, um, of, of the time. And false accusations in general are about five to 8%.
Um, so they're, they're fairly rare in general.
Especially in this case, you have people from different states or survivors who are completely unaffiliated. Uh, you know that. I feel like that strengthens that even more. And one thing I do want to ask is, I know this is very school focused. Do you plan on ever expanding the platform and making new one, just everyone to all victims?
We do. Yeah, yeah. We are, we are actively looking at expanding, um, to different, um, sectors and stuff. It's a slow process 'cause we really wanna get people using the, um, using it. In academia about 21 million people already have access. Um, and so students, professors, faculty, alumni with, with, um, their. Their alumni email addresses can use it, but we are looking to expand to different sectors, especially with like, partnering with like unions and membership organizations.
Yeah. Um, so absolutely when, you know, I would love to partner with the military as well. I know that they have a system called CATCH that I've, I've heard mixed reviews about, um, but would love to partner with them as well because sexual assault is not just on college campuses. Uh, it is, it is pervasive everywhere and we wanna help as much as possible.
Yeah, no, that's why I asked. 'cause I just, you know, I was thinking, I was like, I don't have a.edu email, so what would I do? So I think that's really important and yeah, I definitely think expanding is important. I think part of it is, you know, this is just one step. I think we also need to have legal reformation so that there are more exactly consequences so that these serial per uh, perpetrators don't.
Have the ability to, to keep going forward with it, you know? And I think fortunately, a a lot of them get away, but like you said, if there's this way to hold them accountable and, and to also spread knowledge and fear that, hey, like you will get caught. Like, we're gonna be tracking this. And I think that's important.
And one thing I do wanna ask, uh, is there, there's no time limit if, if I, if I was in college a couple years ago and I just. Didn't wanna report it, but now I'm like, Hey, you know what, I, I want to try to match this person.
Yeah.
I can go ahead and do that. Correct.
There's no time limit to use our system. So the, the assault, you know, if you're a professor and you're in your sixties and the assault happened when you were in college and you have that.edu, you can, you can.
Uh, use our system. Now, the statute of limitations may say that you can't report that to authorities, right? Um, or you could probably report it, but it won't go through a case. Um, but using our system, it can be anybody. And so it doesn't matter the amount of time. And we also don't define what sexual assault is for people.
So if you feel like you've been violated and, and you've been harmed in some kind of sexual way, even if it doesn't do the level of criminal sexual assault in your state, you can still use our platform because it might show a, an escalation of abuse for an offender. Yeah. It also might show that, that maybe this, this offender is just doing really shitty things.
Um, you know, and that you can confront them, and that's why we don't define justice. Um, some, some victims are going to want the criminal justice option and they want their perpetrator behind bars, and that is absolutely fine. Like, we, we are, if that's what you want, that's what we're gonna support you to get.
If that's not what you want and you're like, we just wanna have a conversation with him. Well, then we're gonna support you in that too. And we might not be the people to help you have that conversation, but we're gonna, yeah, we're gonna provide you resources with somebody that can have that conversation with you.
Because again, a lot of these victims know their perpetrator. They're friends with them. They are, yeah. Fraternity brothers. They are coaches. They are, um. Ex-boyfriends, ex-girlfriends or current girlfriends or roommates or whatever the case may be. And so they, yeah, they, a lot of times they don't report because they don't want them, their lives to be ruined.
They just want them to stop the behavior and not harm anybody else.
Yeah. I think that's important. Like you said, even if, uh, legal action can't be taken because of the time or just your state's laws, at least you can help match and maybe see a pattern or a, a prevention, like we've mentioned more. Just as important and even more important to a degree than, than, than post support and post recovery is if we could stop all of this from even happening, you know?
Exactly. So like you said, I, I think you used a great word escalation, right? Because a lot of times in, in, in any type of criminal or immoral behavior, it's. You kind of start small and, and see what you can get away with and, and slowly build up. Yeah. Um, so I think this is important. If we are matching, uh, a potential future offender with multiple people doing this smaller thing and, and they get confronted about it, it's gonna be like, oh, well then I, I definitely can't continue to do this.
So I, I think that's so important. To instill, uh, accountability and consequences. And we're gonna have your website and description below where people can donate, where people can also explore resources for whether or not they should report forensic exams, other support survivors guide, uh, different ways they can get involved, and just a whole bunch of information on your website.
Uh, as, as you mentioned, it's a nonprofit. It, uh, can you talk a little bit about the donations and, and what they help, uh, support and all that?
Yeah. Um, and thank you for that because we are a nonprofit and we do, um, run, we don't get any government funding and government funding right now for gender-based violence is going away.
Um, and so we rely on people, generous individuals and foundations to help fund our work, to keep it free for survivors so they don't have to pay for it. And so if you make a donation, it, it goes to help building our tech and to continually evolving it and to outreaching to survivors. So that they know that they have access.
We have, um, a Listo ambassador program where that's volunteer students on college campuses who work to spread the word, um, on their campuses. So it helps us develop those program and develop marketing materials, uh, and outreach materials for them. Um, and a lot of it goes into the, the, the technology. Um, the, the technology, like I said, is highly encrypted, is very advanced technology.
Um. Any donation, whether it's $5 or $5,000, is really, really helped support our mission and show survivors in your life, um, that you care and that you'll, you'll stand up for this, which I think is, uh, really important as well. And so if you wanna make a donation, you can find the donate link on project callisto.org.
Um, Callisto is C-A-L-L-I-S-T-O or you can follow us on Instagram. Even following us on Instagram really helps and liking and saving and, and sharing our posts really helps because. Sexual assault is not something that meta really likes to talk about. And so our, our ads often get boosted or they get blocked, um, and our boosted posts often get blocked.
And so getting organic traction when people don't wanna follow a sexual assault org, um, because it can be really triggering, but if you have the capacity to do that, just following us at Callisto and Instagram and, and liking and sharing our posts is really, really helpful. And it shows, shows the survivors.
In your life that you support them. And again, I'm gonna make a challenge to the men that are listening. If you don't think that you have a voice in this, follow us like us, comment and start sharing. Even if you just share it to your stories, people are gonna start noticing that and that's, that's gonna be a really good way to start to be an ally.
Yeah, I totally agree. And I think. Also for, for all the men and for anyone listening, just having this information, uh, on the back burner for if something, you know, God forbid, forbid, does happen to anyone you know about. You can present this and say, Hey. Here's Callisto and like, here's how you can report this information to, to maybe match and see if they're a serial perpetrator.
So just always having this on standby to help people. If you ever hear about someone going through something, just say, Hey, like, maybe you haven't heard of this. And this is a way where maybe if you don't wanna report, at least you can help prevent this from happening, especially in a case where it's someone you know, or the person you're talking to is someone they know.
So I think this is an important tool for everyone to have. Just in case, because like you said, and, and sometimes the last thing a victim is thinking about is how do I, you know, report this person to get matched with, see if this is a repeat, right? Because obviously post, uh, incident, there's a lot of trauma going on and, and so I think it's important as a outside person looking in to say.
Hey, you know, you're, you're not thinking about this right now, but here's this resource that when you're ready can be super helpful to prevent this from happening again. So I think it's important for everyone, you know, you don't have to be a victim to, to use this or to know about this. I think it's. It's beyond important that people who aren't victims know about this to spread it and to share it.
So yeah, definitely we will have your social media and your website and description below for people to check out, share and support however they can. Like you said, if it's not through monetary means at least sharing it on social media or with people through word of mouth. It's super important and, and that's why I want to host you today.
'cause as soon as I saw what your website did, I said, now that is something that people need to know about because. I never knew there was an option like that, and so I think it's really important for people to be aware of that and to just have the conversation again. On everything related to this, you know, from root causes of what is, you mentioned cycle like this behavior has been repeating itself across generations, across different families and workplaces, uh, throughout history.
So having these conversations to try and break that down and stop those cycles and to put forward more good and accountability. And so I, I really appreciate you coming on the show today to share your time and share your information with us so that we can help other people.
Great, and thank you so much for having me.
I think that it's so important to share with a wide variety of audiences, and so I appreciate your willingness to talk about such a difficult topic.
